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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The freedom to repair what you have bought
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I have heard this problem a few times re not being allowed to fix a cell phone. Today, it is about tractors. The farmer in the piece downloaded hacked software to fix his tractor. The companies which make things want you to pay them to fix even simple things.
Full disclosure: I have taken apart 2 cell phones to replace battery and screen. Not straightforward.
Have you done a repair on sonething like this? Do you believe in the freedom to fix what you bought?
[ 28. March 2017, 01:19: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I agree with the farmer that since the equipment will not function without the software, the tractor is useless without it, rendering the whole unit as a lease. A reason to use these types of equipment is increased efficiency. If that efficiency is lost due to software failure or lack of sufficient numbers of service techs, it is egregious to have to pay for it.
A more fair policy would be to allow the owner of the equipment to download and install the software themselves.
ETA: Welcome to the future. As people accept the idea of leasing everything, everything will cost more.
[ 28. March 2017, 01:46: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
I hate this. But without government regulation, it's not going to change ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A more fair policy would be to allow the owner of the equipment to download and install the software themselves.
The actual issue in this case is slightly different. The software stops functioning if it detects an 'unauthorised' repair to some other part of the tractor:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware
'"You want to replace a transmission and you take it to an independent mechanic—he can put in the new transmission but the tractor can't drive out of the shop. Deere charges $230, plus $130 an hour for a technician to drive out and plug a connector into their USB port to authorize the part."'
and as the article points out - it's often not just a case of money, but of time (because of the availability of a Deere technician to do the above during harvest times, when these tractors experience the most use).
And the license agreement has them signing away their right to sue in these cases.
[ 28. March 2017, 09:07: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The farmer interviewed in the OP bought his tractor second-hand.
There is certainly a case in that respect for saying that he should be free to do whatever the hell he wants with it, including replacing the OS with linux open-source ware.
Which, I'm guessing, is going to be only a couple of years down the line, if it's not already here.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
IIRC there is a clause in most warranties (for stuff you buy outright even) that if you attempt to repair the goods beyond stated limits (like changing the filter on a washing machine/tumble dryer or the drive band on a vacuum clear), you invalidate the warranty. Slightly different but caveat emptor as ever.
IANAL but I have bought stuff on warranty and read the bloody thing!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
As machines have more and more embedded computer technology it gets harder to do it yourself (and more expensive to have it fixed)
Lease cars are becoming more and more popular for this reason - all repairs and maintenance are down to the garage, not you.
My brother can diagnose any car using his laptop but even the parts are diabolically expensive.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
IIRC there is a clause in most warranties (for stuff you buy outright even) that if you attempt to repair the goods beyond stated limits (like changing the filter on a washing machine/tumble dryer or the drive band on a vacuum clear), you invalidate the warranty. Slightly different but caveat emptor as ever.
IANAL but I have bought stuff on warranty and read the bloody thing!
I don't actually care about that. Once the warranty has run out (usually one-three years), I want to be able to keep the machine running. What John Deere are doing is not providing a warranty, but still controlling the lifetime repairs - at a vastly inflated cost.
It's an income stream for them, but the consumers/owners should always have the option to say, okay, I'll void the warranty and get a repair from a different source, and not be tied in perpetuity to the manufacturer. The tractor in this case simply won't turn on if it's repaired by anyone else but John Deere, rendering a $189,000 piece of kit useless.
I can't see much difference between that and ransomware.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
IIRC there is a clause in most warranties (for stuff you buy outright even) that if you attempt to repair the goods beyond stated limits (like changing the filter on a washing machine/tumble dryer or the drive band on a vacuum clear), you invalidate the warranty. Slightly different but caveat emptor as ever.
IANAL but I have bought stuff on warranty and read the bloody thing!
I don't actually care about that. Once the warranty has run out (usually one-three years), I want to be able to keep the machine running. What John Deere are doing is not providing a warranty, but still controlling the lifetime repairs - at a vastly inflated cost.
It's an income stream for them, but the consumers/owners should always have the option to say, okay, I'll void the warranty and get a repair from a different source, and not be tied in perpetuity to the manufacturer. The tractor in this case simply won't turn on if it's repaired by anyone else but John Deere, rendering a $189,000 piece of kit useless.
I can't see much difference between that and ransomware.
Yes - in this situation, I think it makes sense that the software lock in expires at the same time as the warranty. After all, if they don't warrant the hardware anymore, there's no need for the lock.
Alternatives to dealer diagnostics exist for many car brands (such as VCDS for Volkswagen group vehicles) and many alternative engine management implementations exists (remappings).
Presumably given the costs, there is a good incentive for someone to come up with an alternative version of the software anyway.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I agree with the farmer that since the equipment will not function without the software, the tractor is useless without it, rendering the whole unit as a lease.
By "lease" did you mean "loss" please? Othewise I don't understand you.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Welcome to the future. As people accept the idea of leasing everything, everything will cost more.
This is a classic example of rent-seeking.
As such, it bodes really badly for the future of society. What I mean by that is, (assuming economists like Stiglitz are correct) that the more our economy becomes rent-based, the more we see two effects. Firstly, increased inequality. And we are already beyond the point where I think inequality levels are acceptable.* Secondly, the overall efficiency of the economy decreases. It's not a zero-sum game; rent-seeking is non-productive. This skewing of the economy to non-productive sectors is an increasing trend.
AFZ
*No-one argues that there should be no inequality. Some will always work harder and longer and earn bigger rewards. The argument is about how the levels of inequality are so great that it is clear that there is very little correlation with social value and economic value.
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[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I agree with the farmer that since the equipment will not function without the software, the tractor is useless without it, rendering the whole unit as a lease.
By "lease" did you mean "loss" please? Othewise I don't understand you.
Gee D, I don't think that is a misprint. What I think Lilbuddha is saying is that if you buy an item, but because of sneaky built in software you remain tied in to the original supplier for the life of the item, although in theory you might own the item, if you add the purchase and the software tie together, what you have is no better than a leased item.
Incidentally, to what extent is it - or should it be - possible with something other than land to make obligations run with the item, so that they bind someone who was not party to the original contract?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
There is certainly a case in that respect for saying that he should be free to do whatever the hell he wants with it, including replacing the OS with linux open-source ware.
The usual arguments against this kind of thing tend to talk about how if you change the software on this piece of kit, you can make it illegal (more emissions / change bandwidth of radio transmitter / do something unsafe / whatever).
Which is true, to a point, but irrelevant. I don't see a difference between modifying a tractor with a laptop to make it run differently, and modifying a tractor with a welder and the contents of an old barn to run differently.
I don't think Deere are deliberately being assholes, either - at least, no more than any business is an asshole. I suspect they see huge potential downsides - bad publicity, lawsuits that are complicated to defend and so on - associated with allowing people to modify their tractors, and no real gains. Their major customers are big agribusiness, who don't do this. They just don't have an interest in caring about the little guy in the second-hand tractor.
Time was, you bought a piece of electronics and it came with a circuit diagram. If something went bad, anyone could repair it.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Thanks Enoch.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Yes, of course if you're competent you should be able to fix the item, but as others have already pointed out there may be warranty issues or highly complex electronics involved.
I was rather proud of myself for fixing our microwave oven several years back. It was counting the time down but not cooking. I opened it up and found a couple relays were shorted out. It wouldn't have cost much to buy a new one, maybe $40-$50,but replacement parts cost me $6 and it's worked perfectly since.
My wife would be convinced that I was going to burn the house down if I tried that.
They really have gotten to the point where if you finance anything, it will be nearly worthless by the time you are done paying off the debt. That was always the case with computers, but now that there is a computer in everything, even your tractor loses its value at an alarming rate. (We do occasional work for an agricultural industry finance bank, and the depreciation rate on tractors is pretty remarkable, especially, I'm sure, as compared to thirty years ago.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I have had 4 vacuum cleaners during my first 40 years of marriage. So that means every 10 years out one would go because it either could not be repaired or the repair cost almost as much as a new machine. 10 years ago my dear Mother-in-law died leaving behind her machine which my 60 year old hubby remembers from his teen age years. I used it for about a year when it stopped working. Gave the motor a good cleaning and it has been running ever since and doing a much better job then any of my new ones ever did. I think the trick might be to go to antique shops and refurbish the older stuff.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
In the Maker movement, there's a saying: "If you can't open it, you don't own it". (Various versions.)
Useful links: Make magazine and Instructables.
I think it's Monsanto that has a long track record of making farmers buy M's seeds every year, rather than saving seeds from their crops. And there's a pesticide (Roundup?) that's made to work specifically with those seeds. That's playing dirty pool.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And there's a pesticide (Roundup?) that's made to work specifically with those seeds. That's playing dirty pool.
It's rather that the Monsanto corn is engineered to be resistant to glyphosphate (which is the broad-spectrum herbicide in Roundup). And by heavy use of glyphosphase, we are carefully breeding glyphosphate-resistant weeds.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
AFZ's comment on rent seeking is bang on - here's the wikipedia summary .
If you're skilled, you now get to choose - old shite (lots of time fixing it but minor expense) or new shite (heavy purchase cost / heavy depreciation / likely to go BER - beyond economic repair - due to forces outside your control). If you're not skilled, you only get the latter.
I'm not sure this can go on indefinitely - the developing world market won't stand for it, nor can the earth support the throw-away aspect. It is one thing to bully a farmer in the US or UK, another to try the same thing in Poland, and another still in India.
Western manufacturers are protected by things like Euro-6 emissions limits, but whilst I see the ecological benefit, I think the kind of corporate behaviour referred to in the OP may see the west undercut further by Chinese lo-tech offerings (which often have their own durability problems, often due to the use of unsuitable materials).
If I don't crash it, I may yet be driving my last car. I'm only 46, and it is already a 20 year old rolling shed!
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
They just don't have an interest in caring about the little guy in the second-hand tractor.
It is purely about an additional revenue stream. The cost is meant to be passed down to consumers. The little guy will be unduly burdened by this, whilst agribusiness can absorb the initial costs.
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
If you're skilled, you now get to choose - old shite (lots of time fixing it but minor expense) or new shite (heavy purchase cost / heavy depreciation / likely to go BER - beyond economic repair - due to forces outside your control). If you're not skilled, you only get the latter.
It is more than this. The new tractors and harvesters are able to increase yields by a significant percentage because of the technology in question. Small farmers, already behind agribusiness, cannot always afford to lose the productivity.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I just saw that our local library offers drop-in "fix it" hours, where they have tools and experienced people on hand to help you repair your own non-functioning items.
This seems like a great way to fight this from the bottom up. It doesn't solve the problem of fixes that can only be done at the dealership or the item will stop functioning, but it's a good way to empower folks who might be tempted to just throw away an old TV or microwave.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I just saw that our local library offers drop-in "fix it" hours, where they have tools and experienced people on hand to help you repair your own non-functioning items.
In the last decade, I've fixed two tumble driers, a dishwasher (twice), and a garage door opener. How big's your library? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
I was going to say that I hadn't had a fixable failure of anything small and portable, but then I remembered the powered speakers that have been sitting in the basement for the last couple of years waiting to have some capacitors changed. I look at them every now and then, and think that I really must get around to fixing them.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
A quick plug, coming to mind due to LCs post - anyone speaking English and owning a soldering iron could do worse than look for encouragement here when contemplating fixing something electrical - though the forum is much more receptive to enquiries about 'vintage' stuff.
(Before leaving for work this morning I had to fix a puncture in my girl's bike, make a new crank-pin for my crappy 12v tyre inflator, and sort the wiring to my motorbike dynamo. Sometimes the 'costs more but works more' route looks appealing, but then I'd need to take more work stress ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
[ 29. March 2017, 17:20: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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