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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Crushing the Saboteurs
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
So the Daily Mail has decided that there are saboteurs who need to be crushed and that this election is the time to do it. The Sun has come up with a variation on the same phrase (independently? seems unlikely).
Is the attempt to proclaim a spurious unity among the people and to tarnish dissent among politicians of other parties a step along the road to fascism?
Are other steps likely to be taken along that road? What can we do about it?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
At the moment I think this is just pretty standard political language at the time of an election. I suppose what worries me is the dog whistle it gives to those who really think that politics is about the strong crushing dissent with violence.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
The Prime Minister, with a majority in the Commons, the ability to flood the Lords with amenable peers, and access to the Civil Contingencies Act which would override the lot, has said that such opposition as exists could delay her route to Brexit.
If nine Lib Dem MPs, held in utter contempt by the rest of the Commons, could in any way affect her, then something odd is happening.
The Prime Minister seems, with her friends in the Press, to be implacably hostile even to the futile expression of dissent.
I'd guess the result of the election will be roughly (it may not add up):
Con 380
Lab 170
SNP 55
Lib Dem 20
NI 18
Others 7
But what the Prime Minister will do with this I cannot guess.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
I suspect that the opposition she is really thinking about is that of hardline Brexiteers who might try to bring her down if she shows any sign of compromise.
But certainly she plays her cards close. Because of course that is not what she wants them to think. In this scenario the tabloid headlines form a fantastic smokescreen for her.
It could backfire though, if the prospective new majority is even more Brexitty than the old one...
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Interesting tidbit. Know where the word saboteur comes from? The French word for a wooden shoe is sabot. When the Industrial Revolution hit France, the saboteurs would throw their wooden shoes into the gears to stop the machinery.
Carry on.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
the oft-repeated story (as old as the record of the word in English) that the modern meaning derives from strikers' supposed tactic of throwing shoes into machinery is not supported by the etymology
(Source).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Anyone else here willing to admit that they first heard that one from the lips of Kim Cattrall in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country? ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think May is actually thinking of anyone who insists she explains her position, something that she seems unable to actually do.
It is a frightening headline, and not, IMO, in the usual sabre rattling. It is an indication that some people feel that a dictatorship is the best form of government. Obviously, a dictatorship that doesn't execute them.
I fully understand the desire for leading without argument or justification. But that is not the way we do it, and that is not the right way.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
the oft-repeated story (as old as the record of the word in English) that the modern meaning derives from strikers' supposed tactic of throwing shoes into machinery is not supported by the etymology
(Source).
What about 'clogging up the works'? Is that footwear related?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Or would it be all the crushed saboteurs clogging up the works?
Appears they will be a lot of crushing going on with this Election. That is presuming anyone bothers to turn up to vote rather than staying at home playing candy crush.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
Daily Mail has achieved what it set out to, - lots of Publicity by pressing your Red Buttons.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I suspect that the opposition she is really thinking about is that of hardline Brexiteers who might try to bring her down if she shows any sign of compromise.
I agree. It's the opposition to any hint of compromise within the Tory ranks that she's thinking of, because with such a small majority it only takes a handful of headbangers to vote against a proposal for it to fail.
Or to put it another way, it's not opposition to Brexit itself that's the problem, but opposition to her preferred form thereof.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Is the attempt to proclaim a spurious unity among the people and to tarnish dissent among politicians of other parties a step along the road to fascism?
It's the Mail, for crying out loud. Of course they want to move the country down the road towards fascism.
The question is whether anyone important actually agrees with them.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
Harold Wilson said that the easiest of his Days as Prime Minister was when he had a majority of 4, because all his MPs behaved themselves. When he got much bigger Majorities then he started to get many rebellions.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is an indication that some people feel that a dictatorship is the best form of government. Obviously, a dictatorship that doesn't execute them.
I have observed many similar indications in the posts of various left-leaning Shipmates over the last few years. They generally couch it in terms of those who vote the "wrong" way being stupid or selfish rather than traitorous, but the underlying desire to silence those who disagree with their views is the same.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I have observed many similar indications in the posts of various left-leaning Shipmates over the last few years. They generally couch it in terms of those who vote the "wrong" way being stupid or selfish rather than traitorous, but the underlying desire to silence those who disagree with their views is the same.
I dislike the "punch a Nazi" and the "shout down UKIP" memes, but there is surely something different about describing someone as "traitorous" and talking about "crushing the saboteurs" - if only because the former is a legal term, implying that those who use it are suggesting someone should face a court case, whereas the latter is arguably an allusion to extra-judicial violence.
There is a general problem that the left doesn't get - in that many seem to think that tactics and language which they deem unacceptable in the mouths of Cabbage and co is perfectly acceptable when they do it, as if the words themselves don't really matter and it is only the person who says it that is objectionable.
Personally I think that the Tory policies are utterly deplorable and anyone who isn't a higher-rate taxpayer who votes for them is delusional. And UKIP are just talking shite.
But I don't think they should be "silenced" in any other way than being soundly beaten in debate and handed their arses on election day.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Harold Wilson said that the easiest of his Days as Prime Minister was when he had a majority of 4, because all his MPs behaved themselves. When he got much bigger Majorities then he started to get many rebellions.
Yes, but autre temps and all that - when Wilson got in with a majority of 4 that was an election result - it returned Labour to power for the first time in 13 years and they were a bit shell-shocked by the fact that Alec Douglas-Home (who'd been put up as a caretaker supposed to hold the line, go down to defeat, and clear the way for Rab Butler) did better than anyone expected.
In those circs it's unsurprising that Labour behaved themselves - although, at the same time, the debates about *why* ADH had run them so close laid the foundations for the disharmony from arguably 1970 until John Smith. Wilson had won a GE, and Labour were back in power. The Tories have been in office jointly or alone for 7 years. The awkward squad are emboldened. A victory on a new manifesto would put them back in their box (is the hope).
What is more of a truism is that PM's do need some sort of personal mandate (not constitutionally but in practice) and winning a general election is the route one to achieving that
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is an indication that some people feel that a dictatorship is the best form of government. Obviously, a dictatorship that doesn't execute them.
I have observed many similar indications in the posts of various left-leaning Shipmates over the last few years. They generally couch it in terms of those who vote the "wrong" way being stupid or selfish rather than traitorous, but the underlying desire to silence those who disagree with their views is the same.
I think you'll find that there's a world of difference between individuals who refuse to put up with shit and shout it down, and those who'd use the organs of state to make dissenters disappear.
You get this on more US-orientated websites. I just refer these snowflakes to this and carry on.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Incidentally, one wonders how Ken Clarke retains the support of the Tory hierarchy given that he seems to stand full-square against the thing that May says this GE is about.
Whilst it is true that Labour is a mess, it seems also true that some of the most vocal "traitors" are on May's own benches.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
this is over-rationalising to a ridiculous extent, but I do like the idea that Alec Douglas-Home is in some respect responsible for Jeremy Corbyn being Labour leader!
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Incidentally, one wonders how Ken Clarke retains the support of the Tory hierarchy given that he seems to stand full-square against the thing that May says this GE is about.
Because he's a time-served elder-statesman, who even the headbangers revere to a surprising extent. Ken is pretty generally held in Tory circles to be "wrong on Europe, right on everything else."
Europe did for his leadership ambitions on at least 3 occasions, but it's been unthinkable since the 1980s to not have him in Cabinet/shadow Cabinet, until he eventually decided that age had caught up with him.
Basically, he gets a free pass on Europe because everyone knows where he stands.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I think you'll find that there's a world of difference between individuals who refuse to put up with shit and shout it down, and those who'd use the organs of state to make dissenters disappear.
You get this on more US-orientated websites. I just refer these snowflakes to this and carry on.
There is also this point; Trump - and increasingly it seems May - want to lead without dissent. And whilst there is little indication at the moment that May is inclined to use the machinery of the state to get her own way, it isn't much of a stretch to call this traitorous, at very least to the values upon which the state is built.
It can also be argued that pressure put on the state to prevent excesses is hardly morally the same as the excesses of the state anyway.
I don't think we're in the situation in the UK where the state is so excessive that extraordinary citizen responses are justified - but it is a closer thing in the USA IMO.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Incidentally, one wonders how Ken Clarke retains the support of the Tory hierarchy
oh, and I'd add, much as sometimes it might not look like it, that the Tory hierarchy are not the loonies. This is the mistake Tory opponents always make looking in from the outside (not all of them, obviously, but it's the mistake that is always made). Central Office is a world of planning and rationality, grafted onto a broad church coalition that is collectively the Tory Party.
The Tory hierarchy liked/like Ken because he's on top of his briefs, a good speaker, and cuts through well beyond Tory voters. Since the dawn of the polling "who'd you like to go for a pint with that you wouldn't vote for?" he's been near the top of the list.
More to the point, the hierarchy are much more like Ken than they are like IDS, for example. IDS, like Tebbit, plays to a certain part of the base, but when they accidentally re-wrote the rules such that he could actually win a leadership contest not only was he defenestrated relatively rapidly but the rules were hurriedly rewritten to stop such lunacy happening again.
There's a lesson there for Labour....
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is an indication that some people feel that a dictatorship is the best form of government. Obviously, a dictatorship that doesn't execute them.
I have observed many similar indications in the posts of various left-leaning Shipmates over the last few years. They generally couch it in terms of those who vote the "wrong" way being stupid or selfish rather than traitorous, but the underlying desire to silence those who disagree with their views is the same.
Not stupid but a desire for a greater share of the cake indicates selfishness and greed, especially when a bit more thought would show that, in the longer term, things are better for everyone if resources are spread around, so that more people can participate in the economy.
I suppose it depends on how big an underclass one wants to create.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Robotics and mechanisation will continue to reduce the need for human labour, the population will continue to rise. The so-called 'underclass' will have to be redefined by those outside of it and those inside it.
A permanent pool of people not fufilling traditional roles is a fact of modern life that isn't going away. It is a fact which all the main political Parties need to wake up to.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I suspect that the opposition she is really thinking about is that of hardline Brexiteers who might try to bring her down if she shows any sign of compromise.
I agree. It's the opposition to any hint of compromise within the Tory ranks that she's thinking of, because with such a small majority it only takes a handful of headbangers to vote against a proposal for it to fail.
The alternative is that she actually thinks Labour represent a credible Opposition. I know she's batshit crazy, but she's not that crazy.
As always, it's nothing to do with the country as a whole, or Parliament. It's all about the internal politics of the Tory Party.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
So confident are the Tories of winning it seems they are openly talking about tax rises after the Election.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Since they're following a process that will cut billions from tax revenue and there's a limit to how much more they can cut (though, I would suggest a large portion of the defence budget in particular that earmarked to renewing an unnecessary nuclear deterrent) tax increases are the only option they have. I bet it's not the crooked bankers who get to pay though.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I know or have known lots of Politicians from all Parties, been a member of two Parties and have both stood for Election and been a Candidate. Every one has been nice to know, intelligent, lucid and well aware of Politics and Economics. In private they will admit to not being in control of circumstances, and that their Manifesto is a 'Wish List' which they try to not word in such a way as it becomes an Albatross if they get power. 'Off the Record' many express opinions that bear no relation to their Party's official line.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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