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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Can you escape politics?
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I mean, small-p politics, not the big P-politics referring to politicians and elections.
There is politics in the office, politics in the family, politics in the church, politics everywhere. It seems that the dynamics of triangulation, triangles, victim-rescuer-persecutor complexes are everywhere.
Is there any escape, or solution?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I mean, small-p politics, not the big P-politics referring to politicians and elections.
There is politics in the office, politics in the family, politics in the church, politics everywhere. It seems that the dynamics of triangulation, triangles, victim-rescuer-persecutor complexes are everywhere.
Is there any escape, or solution?
Refuse to engage.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
But, isn't that also a political decision?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
It seems to me that "politics" is being defined so broadly by the OP, that it means nothing more specific than "social interaction".
So, no, in that sense, it's pretty much impossible to avoid politics, unless you literally live by yourself on a deserted island.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Office politics usually implies resentments, pettiness, backstabbing and oneupmanship.
Unfortunately it is really hard to have a culture in a workplace where those things don't happen at all, I'm not even sure how one could design a workplace so that it didn't happen.
Years ago I visited a commune where members of the sect lived with a common purse - so nobody was paid an individual salary.
On the day that I visited, they were having an annual event where they tried to get resentments straightened out. They sat in a big room and people would get up and walk across and whisper into a neighbours ear (the implication being that they were asking forgiveness for some moral failing and broken relationship).
The problem with making this into a spectacle is that I don't think it actually does what it is said to be doing. For various other reasons, the sect was stressing out people who lived in the commune. Whilst money wasn't a source of bitterness, other things were clearly prized - for one example there were no TVs, but some appeared to be allowed radios and newspapers; for another some appeared to have prized jobs whilst others seemed to be perpetual dogsbodies.
I've also heard that some worker co-operatives disintegrate because the efforts to encourage policies where the workers share responsibility works against the apparent natural instincts of bitterness.
I conclude that even the best efforts to encourage mutuality and respect end up being ineffective.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
You can always confront effects. Particularly "it's not what you know, it's who you know". Partiality for no good reason is always worth confronting, questioning.
I suppose a lot depends on how you do it. Proclaiming the need for fairness requires a high standard of personal fairness in the way you proclaim it. Slightly misquoting Michelle Obama, "If they've gone low, we must aim high".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
You can always confront effects. Particularly "it's not what you know, it's who you know". Partiality for no good reason is always worth confronting, questioning.
Or as it can be extended: "It's not what you know, and it's not who you know. It's what who you know knows that you know what you know about who you know."
That's politics.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I suggest never taking part in politics. My repetoire consists of phrases such as 'I haven't walked in their shoes so I wouldn't know' or 'Everyone has bit of good and bad in them, even me.' or 'If I haven't anything good to say about someone then I try to keep my Mouth shut'. I do try to practise what I say.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's an interesting OP, as my career was about helping people discern covert psychological stuff (as a therapist). However, I don't think that this should become obsessive. So I don't psychoanalyze friends or my wife.
It is fascinating to see the mish-mash of covert and overt stuff that goes on, but then also silence is golden. And additionally, it becomes boring, pointing out people's projections, or my own. I find gardening is useful, as plants don't do this stuff, (as far as I know).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I suppose it depends whether you mean party-politics or politics as in 'whatever affects the way we live' eg, laws, security, prices, welfare etc.
For a long time talking politics in Northern Ireland wasn't done outside of one's own circle. And even now I hear acquaintances making comments about politicians here that could easily lead to fisticuffs or at least heated exchanges. But that's par for the course where I come from. And in fact it's a big improvement on what used to be the case!
It seems strange to think so, but hearing people openly disagree with one another in ordinary conversation about political issues or local politicians is a real step forward, without the fear of schism in the circle of friends.
The challenge is knowing when to engage, how to engage, and when to shrug it off and keep quiet.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, isn't that also a political decision?
I do not think so. Small p politics is generally meant to mean using expression to gain, curry or keep power. Refusing to engage can be, but does not need to be. Granted, speaking one's mind on a subject can work the same way, but it is much more difficult because one cannot control perception.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
It seems to me that "politics" is being defined so broadly by the OP, that it means nothing more specific than "social interaction".
That seems legitimate, given that 'politics' in the broadest sense means 'interactions of/with the polis'.
Seeing politics as some kind of external factor that intrudes on individuals is kind of like the way we say we're in traffic instead of realizing we are traffic.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I mean, small-p politics, not the big P-politics referring to politicians and elections.
There is politics in the office, politics in the family, politics in the church, politics everywhere. It seems that the dynamics of triangulation, triangles, victim-rescuer-persecutor complexes are everywhere.
Is there any escape, or solution?
Not really. As soon as there is three people, two can discuss the third and what they dislike about them, and how they are a bastard etc. (Which is also why marriages have to be just two people, and why parents get played off each other by their kids.)
It is possible to run a business with collective decision making via consensus, but still, it will come back to who is paying the salaries and bills. To do the consensus, you have to be very explicit about the values and the process.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There's also the point that the 'dynamics' exist inside oneself. Well, that's if you accept that inside you, there may be an internal bully, a victim, a child, parent, and so on.
One interesting issue then is how the internal dynamics connects with the external - pretty complicated. One sense of projection of course, is that I see outside, what I possess inside.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... As soon as there is three people, two can discuss the third and what they dislike about them, and how they are a bastard etc. ...
I don't call that politics, I call that gossip.
The way to avoid both politics and gossip is to change the subject, or to walk away.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
It seems to me that "politics" is being defined so broadly by the OP, that it means nothing more specific than "social interaction".
That seems legitimate, given that 'politics' in the broadest sense means 'interactions of/with the polis'.
This is etymological fallacy. Whilst politics requires interaction between people, that is not the sum of its meaning.
quote:
Seeing politics as some kind of external factor that intrudes on individuals is kind of like the way we say we're in traffic instead of realizing we are traffic.
I don't think people see it as an external factor. The very question of asking how to avoid participating acknowledges that it is participatory.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
A college professor said there were basically three responses to disagreement.
Voice, loyalty, or leave.
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Surely silence is a fourth response.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
A college professor said there were basically three responses to disagreement.
Voice, loyalty, or leave.
My brother always leaves. Any silly nonsense comes his way and he simply moves on. His lucky in that his skills are very much in demand (engineer)
I did the Voice thing and reported the bully. This worked (she lost her job) but the emotional toll on me and my family was huge. If I had my time again I'd leave, but I had a very decent pension which I would have largely lost if I'd left.
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Surely silence is a fourth response.
I don't think so - it would simply be seen as passive aggressive.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Surely silence is a fourth response.
I don't think so - it would simply be seen as passive aggressive.
We cannot completely control how other people perceive our actions.
However, if one consistently refuses to become involved in office/family/whatever politics, It sends a clearer message.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Also, when you think about it, "voice, loyalty, leave [or silence]" is oversimplifying things.
Case in point: In my choral group, a bunch of us get together each week before rehearsal for a quick dinner. Restaurants are chosen from a list on a rotating basis. But which restaurants get on the list, and which don't, is controlled by one or two "highly politically placed persons" in the group.
Voice: The rest of us can suggest additions to or subtractions from the list, but unless the powers that be approve, no action is taken. If the question arises as to why, the answer is "politics."
Loyalty: So we just go along with whatever restaurant happens to be "up" that week.
Leave: Or we don't, and have dinner somewhere else.
Silence: Or we just don't think about it and let it happen. We either join, or not join, the others for dinner as whim takes us.
But none of the above colors our decision one way or another to remain members of the choral group, or to participate in other social activities sponsored by the group.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Surely silence is a fourth response.
I don't think so - it would simply be seen as passive aggressive.
We cannot completely control how other people perceive our actions.
However, if one consistently refuses to become involved in office/family/whatever politics, It sends a clearer message.
Yes, but that doesn't need to be done silently.
My husband's step mother (a marvellous lady) was the master. But she wasn't silent about it. There was a great deal of difficult family politics at one time. She would say 'that's fine, you can do what you want, I'm not getting involved - he's my husband's son and I will not stop seeing him'. Her daughter eventually dealt with her issues and she is now great friends with my husband, but it took years.
Muriel, much missed strong and intelligent woman ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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