Thread: She sacked the choir! Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.


To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=020164

---

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
There is a town in my state where a new minister has been appointed by the bishop-(no congregational consultation). Everyone was shocked and amazed when the minister's first action was to sack the choir. Apparently she doesn't like church music and intends instead to use recorded 'happy clappy' stuff and told the loyal choir members that she didn't care what they thought or did. She suggested that they could sit in the church, suck it up and learn to sing modern stuff. I have the feeling that she will soon have an empty church. Has anyone else had such an upsetting experience?
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Certainly, but do you really want to hear all our war stories? Still, this sucks, and I'm praying.
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I'd probably leave. Not just because I would have been in the choir and I like church music, but because nothing good can come of a priest who isn't prepared to both talk and listen before making her mark.
 

---

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
I don't mind happy clappers, as long as they hap and clap elsewhere.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I will say, though, that in my experience there is always more to the story than is generally known when something this unreasonable gets into the news. And very often it is something that can't be talked about for reasons of liability or confidentiality. People can be dipshits, but not usually to the degree shown in your story--if that's really all there is to it. (The bishop's lack of consultation is a great big red flag here.)

(Remind me not to tell you about the time we were forced to "fire" the choir for a season...)

[ 27. April 2017, 04:38: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 

---

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
Yes, the lack of consultation really concerns me. I think that certain people are on big power trips. The choir member who told me about all this is very distressed and may try to find another church, but would need to travel quite a distance to the next town. It all seems so unnecessary.
 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
Bigger picture: just why was the minister selected by the bishop? What's been going on?
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
.. I heard tell of a minister who worked patiently for months with a (very bad) choir, who were detracting from sung worship. Unfortunately, he was unable to obtain any mutual understanding with them. One Saturday night, in desperation and despair, he took a chain saw to the choir pews ... he didn't last, of course. But nor did the choir nor the congregation.

But seriously, regardless of "back story", this particular case looks like high-hand and insensitive leadership. The trigger issue may have been the choir, but the real problem is the authoritarian approach. This kind of "my way or the highway" leadership normally results in the minister having to take the highway, sooner or later. But it's always damaging.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Nothing much to add really ... but a question.

Assuming (and it's a big assume!) that the Minister was appointed "over the heads" of the church with no consultation, was it with the Bishop's express remit to "change" or "modernise" things? Or even with the desire to get rid of entrenched individuals who (in the Bishop's view) were hindering the church's mission?

This sort of thiningk simply does not fit within my way of doing church, but is such a "top-down" approach normative in some denominations?
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
So, trying to read between the lines here, I suspect the bishop had got fed up of the obstructive church wardens and others who were refusing to take anyone who didn't have a good appreciation of choral music and would guarantee to keep the choir going whatever.

Maybe they had rejected several quality candidates who were "not quite the person we are looking for" (i.e. not our old vicar). And the Bishop needed someone in place, so appointed. I was in a church where the bishop threatened to do so (for reasons that only he and a few others knew, as it happened).

The fact that they have changed the style of music is bad. I think the new minister is probably trying to implement a change plan devised by the bishop, or at least trying to please him (which is not unreasonable). And doing so early is a good move (making radical changes is always best done early). But it seems he is rather bull-in-china-chop.

And how do the congregation members view it all? Maybe it is they who want these changes, but have always been afraid to say so?

I think there is always far more to these stories than we hear. And yes, some people have done things badly and wrong. But I am not yet clear who and how many.
 

---

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
Maybe you all know something that I don't, but is it absolutely clear we're talking about an Anglican church here?
 

---

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
We are talking about the Anglican church and a new bishop with decidedly low church leanings.
 

---

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
OK, thanks. Just thought maybe we ought to clear that up before we get too carried away with the outrage.

Please continue being outraged everyone.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
It is in Australia, mr cheesy ...

They do things differently there.

They are upside down ...

But it could be some other kind of church that has bishops.

The terms 'minister' and 'bishop' may denote a very low-church Anglican setting but there could be other churches it applies to.

As others have said, I'd like to know more about the context and back-story before reaching any firm conclusions on this one. Yes, episcopal settings can be more 'top-down' than congregational ones, but I've never heard of Anglican bishops appointing clergy and plonking them in place without any say-so from the parishioners/congregation in some form or other ...

But then, perhaps my experience/exposure to the Anglican way of doing things is limited.

The only church settings where I've known this sort of thing go on are what used to be known as 'house-churches' or new churches, the UK restorationist scene ... the 'apostles' (bishops to you and me) there used to put elders and pastors in place without any consultation with the congregation whatsoever.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Whoops, cross-posted ...

So it is an Anglican setting ...

Well, it is Tasmania and it is Aussie Anglicans we're talking about ...



From the continent that brought you Sydney ...

Welcome to the new face of world-wide Anglicanism and it's not pretty ...
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Perhaps 20 years ago now, a low-church vicar here introduced more 'contemporary worship' and the choir immediately debunked to a medieval parish church a few miles out into the countryside - thereby boosting its regular congregation.

People still talk about it today. It's muttered about as if it was Krystalnacht ...

A few months ago, the vicar (who no longer has a parish but still does clergy-person duties around the diocese) was in the back of a car driven by a friend of mine. They were taking some old ladies to a service somewhere or other. Unaware that this was the vicar who had done the dastardly deed which led to the choir's migration, they began saying how dreadful it all was ...

All these years later.

The poor chap sat there and said nothing.

Perhaps it served him right. Mwa ha ha ha ...

Now his Purgatory begins ...

To be fair, he didn't sack or oust them, they walked by their own volition - thereby leaving the town a veritable desert when it comes to decent and seemly ecclesial music ...

No, actually, that's not strictly true. They have a choir at the liberal catholic but (tell it not in Gath) they aren't particularly good ...
 

---

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

From the continent that brought you Sydney ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
My understanding is that Anglican churches choose their own Ministers but if this isn’t done within a reasonable time, the Bishop does it for them. This tended to concentrate the church’s mind as Bishop’s appointees were seen as a bad thing. Either someone on the up, someone difficult to place or a trouble-shooter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In Anglican polity, the canonical authority to appoint clergy vests with the Bishop. The interesting thing when looking at different Anglican provinces is how that rule is interpreted in light of the fact that many parishes have a substantive role in selecting their parish priest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
My understanding is that Anglican churches choose their own Ministers but if this isn’t done within a reasonable time, the Bishop does it for them. This tended to concentrate the church’s mind as Bishop’s appointees were seen as a bad thing. Either someone on the up, someone difficult to place or a trouble-shooter.

---

Um.. not quite. At least that's not how it is done in England.

I think what usually happens is that the church draws up a spec of what the parish is like and what kind of person they're looking for. The church wardens then get into discussion with the diocese (although I'm not even sure it is always just the diocese - I've heard of some wardens having to ring Downing Street during the process but I'm not sure why) and I think in the end it is the wardens who make some kind of recommendation as to who it is that they want, which is then agreed (or not) by the diocese.

The whole process seems complex, but I'm pretty sure that bishop doesn't normally impose someone on a parish.

---

quote:

---

Patron

Every parish has its patron, who may be an individual, a corporate body, the bishop, the archbishop, the Crown. Who actually is the patron is a matter of the history of the parish and of its origins. Many originated as the giver of the church itself, their reward being the right to present the incumbent of the parish to the bishop for ordination. In these days, their most important remaining duty is the presentation of the individual selected to be the new incumbent of a parish when a vacancy occurs. In this situation the patron is joined by others – the bishop or his representative, the rural (or area) dean, a representative of the wider church, and two people chosen by the PCC of the parish under consideration. That group can decide how to go about their task – whether, for example, to advertise the vacancy, how to interview candidates – although there are some necessary steps on the way. For a full statement see Patronage (Benefices) Measure 1986.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
My understanding is that Anglican churches choose their own Ministers but if this isn’t done within a reasonable time, the Bishop does it for them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by andras:
Ghastly story, you have my sympathy.

At our local Peculiar, which had a brilliant organist and choir, the new incumbent actually sacked the entire congregation. He climbed into the pulpit and told everyone that they were too old and he wanted 'to be there' for young people, who allegedly didn't come because of there being too many old people there. He did away with the Sunday morning Eucharist as well because it was 'too early' and his target congregation would still be in bed.

The world is full of self-regarding idiots.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
My understanding is that Anglican churches choose their own Ministers but if this isn’t done within a reasonable time, the Bishop does it for them. This tended to concentrate the church’s mind as Bishop’s appointees were seen as a bad thing. Either someone on the up, someone difficult to place or a trouble-shooter. wouldn’t want to use pre-recorded music if there are musicians available.

Tubbs

---

I can only speak of Sydney; other dioceses here may well be different. The actual appointment is always up to the Archbishop. After a parish becomes vacant, a Nomination Board is convened, consisting of 5 nominators elected by the parish and 4 appointed by the diocesan synod. The Board is chaired by the regional bishop. That Board has 13 months from the date of its first meeting to propose a name to the Archbishop, who always has the right to reject. Usually of course, he would not, but he has that right as it is his appointment. After the 13 months, the Board automatically ceases to exist. Again, the usual practice is that the Archbishop will work with the regional bishop and the parish nominators but there is no obligation for that to occur.

Agree with all the comments about how little we actually know about what happened here. Tasmania is a small state physically and in population. Rumours would rise and spread very quickly. Bib's parish is well towards the Catholic end of the spectrum. There are 1 or 2 others like it in the state. There are a few quite evangelical. The churchmanship of most is very much that of most small English country parishes.

Gamaliel, give up - you're sinking yourself deeper and deeper into a hole every time you post of Australia. You clearly know nothing, just as I freely admit that I do not know the details of other dioceses here. What I do have some idea about is the state of Anglicanism in Australia, how the churchmanship varies around the country, the general problems each diocese faces and so forth. You don't.
 

---

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I used "he" and "his" etc speaking of the Archbishop. Not my use of sexist language, but Sydney will not license women as priests, let alone allow a woman to become a bishop.

That is clearly not an opinion which the present Archbishop holds. He is prepared to issue a licence as deacon to any woman priested elsewhere (subject of course to the usual checks); what that woman does in a parish is a matter for the rector and parish council, and she can act as a priest if they agree. Not satisfactory in many respects as it depends upon permission from at least a male rector, but a start. I doubt that the Archbishop could get synod to agree to full priesting although that is obviously now his opinion.
 

---

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :
 
Each diocese in Australia has its own provisions for appointments; we're quite independently-minded in that regard. We have just had our three-yearly elections for parish members of the clergy appointments board, should they be needed.

Apparently in Brisbane each third appointment of a parish priest is made by the archbishop alone.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Kindly H/As--Would you please delete the post just above this one? I had some connection burps. Sorry, and thanks!

bib--

Feel free not to respond. Sounds like the situation may not be public, yet.

Maybe there was some kind of dust-up* between the previous priest and the congregation? Maybe that's why the previous priest left?

From what Shipmates (especially Lamb Chopped!) have said over the years, and what PK (preacher's kid) friends have told me, I think severe clergy/congregation problems are fairly common. (Though, generally, not as complex as LC's former church.)

I saw this in the independent fundamentalist church I attended, when I was a kid. Small place. Maybe 100 people on a good day and more for Christmas and Easter. Basically, a country church that wasn't in the country anymore. A group of people had started it in borrowed/rented space, years before. They eventually got some land, built a basement, and met there until they could afford to do the rest. I attended until I was an adult, and moved away.

We had the same pastor most of that time. There were all sorts of emotional currents in the congregation. The church nearly split a couple times, for reasons other than the pastor. He wasn't necessarily a good match for the church, though. He was more of a scholar. The congregation was serious about understanding the Bible, and many people dug very deeply into both Scripture and the original languages. But he mostly wanted to go, word by original language word, through Bible passages. Long sermons (sometimes an hour or more) doing this, many, many times, over many, many years. Didn't help that some people had roasts in their home ovens, slow-cooking during Sunday school and church!

At one point, some problem developed between some of the senior-status members and the pastor. I never knew what it was. But the members quit a DIY building project they were doing with the pastor. He finished it up alone, then he and his wife left.


An independent church doesn't have any bishop or outside hierarchy to consult. I think some of the senior-status men spread the "pastor needed" word, and maybe checked with churches and seminaries.

IIRC, a few male pastors basically auditioned, individually, in the Sunday morning service. The choice was narrowed down to one man. The church voted. I'm not sure if the church's Board of Elders had to sign off or not. We did get a pretty good pastor. He and his family chose not to live in the parsonage. They had kids. Maybe not enough room?

Anyway, that's my long-winded answer to many things in the thread.

*Did I use "dust-up" correctly?

[ 28. April 2017, 06:55: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

---

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by andras:
Ghastly story, you have my sympathy.

At our local Peculiar, which had a brilliant organist and choir, the new incumbent actually sacked the entire congregation. He climbed into the pulpit and told everyone that they were too old and he wanted 'to be there' for young people, who allegedly didn't come because of there being too many old people there. He did away with the Sunday morning Eucharist as well because it was 'too early' and his target congregation would still be in bed.

The world is full of self-regarding idiots.

---

Have the young people flocked to his doors, or is the church now empty?


And shouldn't he have accepted that the congregation he had got, was the one God had given him as a starter, and for whom he was responsible. Besides, if they were old, more of them were likely to be reaching the judgement seat sooner. Doesn't he owe it them to do his best to make sure they are OK when they get there? Or am I hopelessly out of kilter?

---

The regular sevices - Sung Eucharist with all the gorgeous trimmings on Sunday morning plus a whole range of mid-week services including a couple of Eucharists, celebrations of saints' days and so on - have all been ditched and replaced by two mid-week Eucharists; the Sunday evening Compline remains in place and is now the only Sunday worship.

The mid-week Eucharists attract at most two people - the 'oldies' he doesn't want, as it happens; whether any young people turn up to his Compline and Hot Chocolate I have no idea. And the various charities that the church supported have all been ditched, there are no offerings - as 'young people don't have any money' - and if as happens from time to time no-one turns up, he doesn't even read the Ante-Communion; I know this as his one regular communicant turned up a few minutes late one day and he'd already b*ggered off.

His original congregation has simply gone elsewhere, thus gifting neighbouring parishes with singers, organists and the like. Their gain is his loss!
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Just...wow.
 

---

Posted by Doone (# 18470) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Re: Bishops' input in appointments.

Don't know about Australia, but in Ireland the parochial nominators (about four congregation members elected for the purpose) will undertake a process of looking at prospective candidates for a new minister; with some guidance from the Diocesan Boards of Nomination. However, the Bishop's prerogative is to appoint someone of his own choosing if the nominators fail to find someone within say 6-18 months.

In the CofE, there are, I think, clergy and lay panels of interview for prospective ministerial candidates, at least a - perhaps very small - number of whom will have been elected by the PCCs involved to represent them. Again, I think the process of 'being a Bishop's appointment' might apply, if they fail to appoint after a reasonable amount of time.

It sounds very brutal for someone brand new to come in like that and just start eliminating parts of the church's ministry!
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by andras:
Ghastly story, you have my sympathy.

At our local Peculiar, which had a brilliant organist and choir, the new incumbent actually sacked the entire congregation. He climbed into the pulpit and told everyone that they were too old and he wanted 'to be there' for young people, who allegedly didn't come because of there being too many old people there. He did away with the Sunday morning Eucharist as well because it was 'too early' and his target congregation would still be in bed.

The world is full of self-regarding idiots.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
At the church my parents attended, a number of new elderly people turned up at once. It turned out that the previous week, the new vicar in the next village had done a very similar thing from the pulpit.

I do not know the development of this story.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What 'action' were they going to miss?

How are a few up-tempo songs and a drum-kit any more indicative of the work of God the Holy Spirit than an asthmatic choir and wheezy organ?

I don't get the connection.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The issue here, though, appears very different to the situation you describe, Cliffdweller, where the older people apparently saw some value in the changes and embraced them.

In the OP it looks like they were given no opportunity to decide. 'This is what you are having, like it or not ...'

It seems to be an issue not simply of style but the way the changes were implemented or enforced..

---

I wasn't really being explicit enough in connecting the dots but, yes, this is the point. That it doesn't need to be a hard-and-fast standoff between generational groups-- reach one at the expense of the other. There really are churches (the one I currently serve is one) that do a good job of reach diverse age groups with diverse styles of music & worship.

And yes, the key is to do so in a way that everyone feels included and valued, where everyone buys into the mission and vision for the church and particularly the worship, even when that means singing in a style or with instrumentation that isn't quite your cup of tea. Where sacrifice and building bridges are communal values. And no, autocratic top-down decrees generally aren't effective in garnering that sort of consensus.
 

---

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :
 
Of course, an earlier version of the whole organ versus music group debate is described by Thomas Hardy in Under the Greenwood Tree.

Truly there's nothing new under the sun!
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well yes ...

I was being a bit curmugeonly ... not to say pedantic ...

But can we 'see' the work of the Holy Spirit?

The wind bloweth where it listeth.

Young people bopping along to up-tempo worship songs doth not a work of the Holy Spirit make ... in and of itself ...

I'd be more convinced if it was a work of the Holy Spirit if it was THEM not the old people who put their musical preferences to one side ...

Now, that would be a miracle and worthy of note ...



I get what you're getting at and I'm being deliberately awkward.

Trouble is, I've been around too many services / meetings where a jolly time or particular atmosphere has been ascribed to the direct work of the Spirit when ... well, it's been a combination of things, including suggestibility ...

Not saying it was in the case you cite ...
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
{Hands Gamaliel a bottle of Geritol, a cozy knit blanket, and a membership in AARP. Puts a "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" sign in front of his home.}

 

---

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes ...

I was being a bit curmugeonly ... not to say pedantic ...

But can we 'see' the work of the Holy Spirit?

The wind bloweth where it listeth.

Young people bopping along to up-tempo worship songs doth not a work of the Holy Spirit make ... in and of itself ...

I'd be more convinced if it was a work of the Holy Spirit if it was THEM not the old people who put their musical preferences to one side ...

Now, that would be a miracle and worthy of note ...



I get what you're getting at and I'm being deliberately awkward.

---

I would say any time we set aside ourselves to demonstrate the sacrificial love of Christ we can chalk it up to the miraculous work of the Spirit, whether the sacrificer is young or old. But really, does it then surprise us that it would be the older-- presumably wiser, more accustomed to the work of the Spirit-- Christians who demonstrated this transformative power (this time, anyway)? Rather, we should be asking ourselves why it isn't that way more often.

In this case, the part I left out (naughty!) was that these older Christians happened to be largely retired missionaries. So the notion of cross-cultural ministry was familiar to them, as was the notion of sacrificing your comfort to accommodate others.

They are mostly gone now, but not forgotten-- at least by me.

 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I get that aspect and I'm not denigrating the principle of what they did.

That would apply whatever issue it'd been or if the situation had been reversed and things moved the other way for whatever reason - from up-tempo or contemporary to a more 'traditional' format or style, say.

The principle transcends the format.

Meanwhile, I have no idea what the acronym stands for nor the particular beverage that's been mentioned but I'll take the blanket ...

Perhaps I'm becoming one of Harry Enfield's 'Old Gits', despite never having found them funny back in the day.
 

---

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
{Hands Gamaliel a bottle of Geritol, a cozy knit blanket, and a membership in AARP. Puts a "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" sign in front of his home.}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Meanwhile, I have no idea what the acronym stands for nor the particular beverage that's been mentioned but I'll take the blanket ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
{Hands Gamaliel a bottle of Geritol, a cozy knit blanket, and a membership in AARP. Puts a "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" sign in front of his home.}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
I posted this OP because I was concerned about the high handed and non consultative actions that had occurred. This is much more significant than what type of music was played. It augurs badly for the happiness of a congregation when the boss is an autocrat who cares nothing for his/her flock. I once attended a church where the new minister told me that he wasn't going to bother with the elderly in his congregation as in his opinion it was only the young who mattered. Needless to say, the older congregation, who tended to be the financial supporters, soon left.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The ideal, of course, is to have the choir (or the worship band if you insist ...) facilitating the sung-worship of the congregation rather than delivering a performance of some kind ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

More seriously, I repeat what I questioned earlier, about the pastoral legitimacy of abandoning the part of your flock who are nearest to the life event when they are going to need faith most.

Also, now that I am old, I do value what I learnt from people who at the time I'd have regarded as stuffy, stuck in the past and no longer getting it, and who are no longer around to ask or to thank.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
Needless to say, the older congregation, who tended to be the financial supporters, soon left.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Cliffdweller, 'geezer' is a specifically London / Cockney term for 'bloke' (guy) and isn't necessarily age-specific - although it's not the sort of term the hip-hop generation would use ... Although they'd understand it.

---

In the US, "geezer" refers to old people-- more often men than women-- with a low-key implication that they are cranky and out of touch. "Get off my lawn!" is what geezers say.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I hadn't realised the term 'geezer' existed across the Pond. You learn something new every day.

Is it a recent import or a long-standing US term? Words cross and recross the Atlantic in both directions of course.
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I've heard the term geezer all my life and I am 62. (And I try not to be a cranky one, myself )
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I hadn't realised the term 'geezer' existed across the Pond. You learn something new every day.

Is it a recent import or a long-standing US term? Words cross and recross the Atlantic in both directions of course.

---

I've heard it all my life (in the U.S.), and I've lived long enough to be a geezer myself -- though I also believe it usually refers to old men more than women.

Cross-post with Lyda*Rose -- I'm a few years older than she is, so I move more slowly!

[ 01. May 2017, 17:03: Message edited by: Pigwidgeon ]
 

---

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
Geezer is very common here in the USA.

There was an ancient old gentleman in the Italian-American RC parish of my childhood whom everyone always referred to as "The Geezer." His real name was the wonderful Rocco Pelusi.

I used The Geezer for my Ship name for a while. Some of my older MW reports bear that name.

I'd never refer to a woman as a geezer, though -- only a man. There was an ancient old woman in that same Italian-American parish whom everyone used to call "The Crone." I don't know what her real name was.

I might also call an old woman a hen, biddy, or old maid. Except Pigwidgeon, though, who is forever young.
 

---

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've heard it all my life (in the U.S.), and I've lived long enough to be a geezer myself -- though I also believe it usually refers to old men more than women.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
... I used The Geezer for my Ship name for a while. Some of my older MW reports bear that name.

I'd never refer to a woman as a geezer, though -- only a man. There was an ancient old woman in that same Italian-American parish whom everyone used to call "The Crone." I don't know what her real name was.

I might also call an old woman a hen, biddy, or old maid. Except Pigwidgeon, though, who is forever young.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

I might also call an old woman a hen, biddy, or old maid. Except Pigwidgeon, though, who is forever young.

---

Thank you!

 

---

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Geezer is very common here in the USA.

There was an ancient old gentleman in the Italian-American RC parish of my childhood whom everyone always referred to as "The Geezer." His real name was the wonderful Rocco Pelusi.

I used The Geezer for my Ship name for a while. Some of my older MW reports bear that name.

I'd never refer to a woman as a geezer, though -- only a man. There was an ancient old woman in that same Italian-American parish whom everyone used to call "The Crone." I don't know what her real name was.

I might also call an old woman a hen, biddy, or old maid. Except Pigwidgeon, though, who is forever young.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Wasn't there a song in the 70s about someone being a real tasty geezer?

It became a universal term for a handsome young gent.

At least it did at my school!

M.

---

A RIGHT tasty geezer, if you don't mind. This old geezer remembers it well. Johnie Reggae by The Piglets may not have been the only version?

If I am not allowed to link, would a kind host please remove? youtube
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I remember it well too.

'Johnny Reggae, Reggae ... here comes Johnny Reggae ...'

I could never work out the lyrics but advance adolescent wondered whether they were rude.

'Johnny Reggae, Reggae laid it on me' I thought she sang. I embarrassed my Dad, who was no prude, by asking him if it was some kind of sexual reference.

Anyone know the words?

'He's a real tasty geezer ...'
 

---

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
What's he like
Mavis?
He's a real tasty geezer.

He's grown his hair a bit
but it's smooth, not too long
an' he wears a baseball shirt
with a number seventeen on

He looks great in his big white
basketball boots.
He's stupid over football
An' he looks me in the eye
when he shoots.

Reggae
Reggae
Reggae

Here comes Johnny Reggae

Johnny Reggae
Reggae
lay it on me.

Reggae
Reggae
Reggae...

He'll always start a fight for me
he's always on the phone
at the dance-hall in the evening
he'll always take me home

In his fringe and buckle stompers
and his two-tone tomic strides

He's a real tasty geezer
an' I'm his - here - inside.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Make of it what you will (I wouldn't talk to my mum about it just in case.)
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I'd rather not speculate about things which came from the pen of decidedly dodgy geezer Jonathan King.
 

---

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
I have always thought that 'lay it on me' was like the contemporary 'high five' or 'put it there' when offering your hand for a shake. I have no idea about anything else in the lyrics but most or all of it seems harnmless to me.

Back on the topic - my old minister (70 years ago) used to say 'The devil gets into the church through the choir'.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
{Hands Gamaliel a bottle of Geritol, a cozy knit blanket, and a membership in AARP. Puts a "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" sign in front of his home.}

---

Thanks to cliffdweller and others who jumped in to explain this. I sort of tossed a mental coin about providing links, and it came down on the "they can look up Geritol and AARP" side. Apologies for any confusion and inconvenience.

I didn't intend any insult, BTW. Gamaliel made a comment, followed by smilies, that was very much in the "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" vein, and I playfully tossed that back to him.

I don't think I would've called him a "geezer", in the American sense, just because I usually don't use that word. More likely,
"old coot" (Free Dictionary, last definition) or "the (stereotypical) grumpy old man who lives on the corner".

IME, "old coot" often includes a sneaking admiration, for someone who dares to do/say whatever it was, and possibly gets away with it.

Possibly the old-cootest of all old coots was fold-singer/activist Pete Seeger. At his 90th birthday celebration (televised), Bruce Springsteen said "Pete's going to be out here in a minute; and he's going to look a bit like your grandpa, if your grandpa could kick your *ass*".

 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Typo in my last post should read "folk-singer".
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I took no offence, Golden Key.

As you correctly identified I made a teasing remark and accepted the teasing riposte in return.

It was my birthday yesterday. I was 56. Consequently, I am well along the trajectory from Angry Young Man to Grumpy Old Git ...
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Hmmm...how to make Geritol frosting for a birthday cake...

(Happy birthday!)
 

---

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
Gamaliel - a reminder that the hip-hop generation are Gen Xers and mostly in their 40s now Obviously subsequent generations have carried it on, but as a genre it straddles disco and house music in terms of how it started, parallel to new wave. I recommend The Get Down on Netflix!

Choirs don't work everywhere. My church is MOTR with a fairly new open evangelical rector who is slowly bringing in changes - we have a robed choir for our Holy Communion services when I feel like it actually detracts from the worship and is just there because that's what they've always had, and I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.
 

---

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Gamaliel - a reminder that the hip-hop generation are Gen Xers and mostly in their 40s now Obviously subsequent generations have carried it on, but as a genre it straddles disco and house music in terms of how it started, parallel to new wave. I recommend The Get Down on Netflix!

Choirs don't work everywhere. My church is MOTR with a fairly new open evangelical rector who is slowly bringing in changes - we have a robed choir for our Holy Communion services when I feel like it actually detracts from the worship and is just there because that's what they've always had, and I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThunderBunk:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Gamaliel - a reminder that the hip-hop generation are Gen Xers and mostly in their 40s now Obviously subsequent generations have carried it on, but as a genre it straddles disco and house music in terms of how it started, parallel to new wave. I recommend The Get Down on Netflix!

Choirs don't work everywhere. My church is MOTR with a fairly new open evangelical rector who is slowly bringing in changes - we have a robed choir for our Holy Communion services when I feel like it actually detracts from the worship and is just there because that's what they've always had, and I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.

---

Pomona you need a new director of music, not no choir. ETA: This is because it takes many years, at least a generation in fact, to build a musical tradition in a church, and only one dry spell and/or uppity clergyperson to destroy it.

---

quote:

---

I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Pomona:

quote:

---

I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.

---

Sounds like a plan. Just tell the choir they suck and "detract from worship", sack them, and tell them to suck it up and don't whine about it like selfish, little gits. Problem solved.

---

quote:

---

We don't have a director of music anyway - IME only Anglo-Catholic churches in England ever do, it's not something I've ever come across outside of that tradition. A worship committee or self-selecting music group is far more common.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have seen at close range a rector/choir war which, in the short term, the rector won. In the longterm, he split the parish during a five-year internal war, and then took it out of the Anglican communion. Since then, I have been inclined to look at such efforts as a cleric-with-an-ego/political-agenda phenomenon

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Indeed. Was it Richard Giles who once referred to churches being held to ransom by choirs consisting of two ladies in blue robes, clutching processional handbags?

There must be occasions when a previously competent choir has diminished to the extent that the sell-by date has passed, and a rethink as to parish music is required. Nothing wrong in that, but sensitivity may well be requisite.

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Directors of music are fairly common among larger Lutheran churches in the US midwest, especially of the German and Scandinavian flavour. Indeed, I have two Canadian musical friends who enjoy great jobs at this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have seen at close range a rector/choir war which, in the short term, the rector won. In the longterm, he split the parish during a five-year internal war, and then took it out of the Anglican communion. Since then, I have been inclined to look at such efforts as a cleric-with-an-ego/political-agenda phenomenon

---

We have to take each case on its own merits.

I have been in a congregation where the choir was sacked, which proved to be a springboard for continued church growth. Choir-with-an-ego/political-agenda is also a possibility to be considered.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have seen at close range a rector/choir war which, in the short term, the rector won. In the longterm, he split the parish during a five-year internal war, and then took it out of the Anglican communion. Since then, I have been inclined to look at such efforts as a cleric-with-an-ego/political-agenda phenomenon

---

We have to take each case on its own merits.

I have been in a congregation where the choir was sacked, which proved to be a springboard for continued church growth. Choir-with-an-ego/political-agenda is also a possibility to be considered.

---

Indeed, each case needs to be considered on its own merits and I did not comment on the OP as I did not think I had enough information to do so. My own experience is that there are more clerics who desire change for programme reasons than dire choirs who stand in the way of spiritual excellence; others may have different life experiences.

---

© Ship of Fools 2016


UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0