quote:

---

But try some spirituals. Steal Away, Nobody Knows, Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child, It's Me O Lord, and sing them slowly. I love the nobility and power of many spirituals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

---

But try some spirituals. Steal Away, Nobody Knows, Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child, It's Me O Lord, and sing them slowly. I love the nobility and power of many spirituals.

---

I'm not sure I see the religious content in Sometimes I Feel Like A Motherless Child. From my recollection of hearing the song, it does fit the musical requirements of a spiritual, but the lyrcis just seem like a general lamentation.

---

Yes, it's a lamentation. Whether it's sufficiently religious might depend on who is singing it and why.
 

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Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
I'm sorry about your sister's battle with cancer.

Get your son involved in folk music. It's the wave of the future, and you can listen to it without wanting to commit hari kari.

I know a congregation started by some serbian pentecostals that uses what you would call Christian popular music. The youf take turns playing the music and singing. Boys generally play the music, girls usually sing, but I don't think that's a rule. The thing is that the congregation itself harmonise so well that the lyric "Jesus is my one true boyfriend" becomes truly beautiful. The music serves an evangelical purpose directed to the performers out the front and their friends, but the congregation turns it into something wonderful, dedicated to God.
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
LC:

quote:

---

And before you jump on me for my listening choices, I was on that station at the request of my musician son, who wants to know my opinion on why all Christian pop sounds the same and what could be done to improve it.

---

quote:

---

It's important to distinguish between contemporary Christian recording artists-- writing songs for concerts and radio listeners-- and contemporary worship leaders who write songs for congregations to actually sing.

---

quote:

---

I don't think it is fair to associate Contemporary Christian Music with the KKK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
This is not just a problem with music, but with literature, film, TV produced for "Christians". There are good creative artists who happen to be Christian around, but their work is accepted as mainstream.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I think Amy Grant's Better Than A Hallelujah pretty much hits the spot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DaleMaily:
whereas a lot of "Christian music" (as opposed to "music by Christians) tends to remove that complexity, rendering it rather more simplistic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
(c) pop Christian music stems off from pop music, a diluted rock and roll, which by its nature is rebellious, rude, exuberant;

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
(c) pop Christian music stems off from pop music, a diluted rock and roll, which by its nature is rebellious, rude, exuberant;

---

One of the things pop music dilutes is rebellion. I would argue that it eliminates rebellion in most cases. One of the major significances of the Beatles is that they wrote pop music with content. It is significant because of its general absence from the genre.

Contemporary Christianity, in general, isn't about challenge and rebellion, so why should its music be?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Lament and sadness are not usually emotions associated with CCM, I think because it is so close to charismatic forms of worship which seem to deny that bad things happen or that we should ever feel sad about anything.

I'm fairly sure my mother has arranged (in her mind if nowhere else) some kind of "celebration" service for her funeral. I can't think of anything worse, and there is zero chance I would attend or arrange it.

---

But there aren't very many traditional hymns that focus on lament either. I agree its a huge gap -- especially compared to the richness of the psalms. But it isn't a problem invented by contemporary music
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
They moaned at Isaac Watts' hymns too:
What's all this so-called 18th Century contemporary Jesus is my beloved crap?

Far too moderm, stick with the Palms.

I don't like modern worship simply because I detest U2 and Coldplay - and most of it sounds like that!

We shouldn't really allow our taste in music to despise a whole genre of worship style.

And by the way, to the outsider, all hymns sound the same anyway. What a dirge they all are.


By the way, I'm b=very sorry for your family situation.
 

---

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
They moaned at Isaac Watts' hymns too:
What's all this so-called 18th Century contemporary Jesus is my beloved crap?

Far too moderm, stick with the Palms.

I don't like modern worship simply because I detest U2 and Coldplay - and most of it sounds like that!

We shouldn't really allow our taste in music to despise a whole genre of worship style.

And by the way, to the outsider, all hymns sound the same anyway. What a dirge they all are.


By the way, I'm b=very sorry for your family situation.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
At least Watts has some merit as poetry. Yes, it's relatively simple, but just try writing as simply as that ...
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Lamb Chopped....i've taken to actually just not singing some stuff right now, as i am another who would value the opportunity to occasionally growl at God.
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Pangolin Guerre:

Christians can be challenging,* groups of Christians can challenge; but Christianity is mainstream, institutional and establishment.
This is a tangent best for another thread, though.

*In every sense of the word.
 

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Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Shouldn't good Christian music be of the sort that you can sing with your friends while eating and drinking, and walking around? It should be at least that intellectual don't you think? Which is why the stuff that wants to stir emotions as it's only aim annoys me. But probably this is what sells. I figured this out in the days when Bette Midler (great last name in this context!) sang I Can Feel The Wind Beneath My Wings, which we thought should read "Between My Cheeks".
 

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Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Lamb Chopped....i've taken to actually just not singing some stuff right now, as i am another who would value the opportunity to occasionally growl at God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't think it is fair to associate Contemporary Christian Music with the KKK.

It's supposed to be uplifting, the problem is that all of us stuck in the fat-trap that is this website are so jaded that it just sounds like nails travelling down a blackboard.

Yeah, I can't stand it either.

---

It is too far, but done for emphasis.

The problem is that I wouldn't listen to this style anyway. I prefer a different style of music.

Some people seem to feel that only "Christian" music is appropriate for Christians to listen to.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I think you're talking about Worship Songs - is that right? IME they largely fit into the "Country-Rock" slot, and while country music may have its devotees I suspect they're less numerous in the UK than across the pond.

In the UK the same soft-rock/country fusion also seems to be one of the two most prevalent modes for people producing worship songs, the other being the Kendrick school.

The kind of modern "Christian" music I tend to listen to is by people like James MacMillan, Roxanna Panufnik, etc, etc, etc: it could be described as "popular" but only within a certain set of people.
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
Erroneous Monk, I was going to suggest "Blessed be the name of the Lord" but you beat me to it.
It's not always an easy chorus to sing - in fact, it's a bl**dy difficult one for me to sing, but I know it's true.
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
You've got a number of Kendrick ones that are, sort of, corporate laments as well.
They don't really fit your situation and they aren't pop.
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Lamb Chopped, I'm really sorry to hear about your sister's diagnosis.

Going back to your OP, isn't there's a difference here between songs to be sung corporately in a service, and songs that where the musician(s) are vicariously singing for us individually?

A lot of what is put out on Christian channels and CDs is hopelessly unsuitable for corporate use. That means it has to be justified as being designed to express our personal freight for us. So if it doesn't even try to express,

"Though the fig tree does not blossom, and no fruit is on the vines", or
"why do you cast me off? Why do you hide your face from me?",

then the entire industry is collectively defaulting both on the faithful and the God it claims to serve.

How old is your son now? Could it be his calling to change this?
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I think you're talking about Worship Songs - is that right? IME they largely fit into the "Country-Rock" slot, and while country music may have its devotees I suspect they're less numerous in the UK than across the pond.

---

quote:

---

I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I want to know if there is anything like a biblical lament in modern Christian pop,

I would like something singable to growl at God occasionally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'd also like to know why 80% of the songs appear to be sung by the same (male) vocalist. The songs are credited to different names, but it's like the old romance covers where no matter who the protagonist was supposed to be, it was always the same bloody cover model with deeply improbable hair and pecs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Much of CCM is crap both musically and lyrically, but its lack of laments and ragings against God are scarcely peculiar to the genre.

This absence has always been common to practically all hymnody.

For example, I recently made a search (admittedly not comprehensive) of the lyrics of the twelfth century Hildegard of Bingen and could find nothing confrontational in her opus.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:


This absence has always been common to practically all hymnody.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Just don't bring them anywhere near me. Particularly not now. Particularly not when my wife has cancer.

If you do then I will tell you to fuck off, to fuck right off.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, I'm not sure that looking for loopholes in Hildegard of Bingen's ouevre gets us very far ...

What is Kaplan trying to say?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'd be happy to find a popular song (specific genre doesn't matter) that one might hear on the radio and that could be classed as a lament (by a faithful Christian--pissed off is fine, atheistic is not).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In the (more or less contemporary) musical world, I think the best lament is Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms.

---

In the more contemporary hymn genre, I like John Bell's "There is a Place" and "We Cannot Measure How You Heal." Neither, I guess, is a full-on lament, as both balance the lament and acknowledgement of pain with hope and assurance. But I cannot sing the latter without it catching in my throat a bit.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
What about Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah? A stupendous effort, praising in time of trouble.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
I would second the recommendation, in the soft-Christian-pop genre, of Amy Grant's Better Than a Hallelujah as a song that examines the darker side of our human experience and suggests that being honest about our feelings before God is far more pleasing to Him than manufactured happy feelings of praise. It is especially powerful when coupled with the video which I think is quite honest in its refusal to provide a "happy ending" to the little mini-story told therein. Amy's current pop-country style may not be to everyone's taste, but lyrically I don't think you'll find much better theology about the Christian experience of suffering.

Not exactly a lament, but I enjoy the theology (as well as the music) of the song American Jesus by August Rain, which I think attacks the "prosperity gospel" heresy fairly directly.

Whenever people get into one of these "ALL CCM SUCCCKKKS!!!" discussions, there are so many comments made that enrage me that I usually try to not even get involved, but to point to just one aspect of it: you have to compare apples with apples. There are artists doing fringe, edgy, risky things in Christian music just as there are in "mainstream" music. But the majority in both cases is doing bland, easy-to-listen to pop that is not particularly challenging either musically or lyrically. Don't compare the blandest of Christian music with the edgiest and coolest of mainstream music -- rather, compare it with the blandest of Top 40 pop radio.

I don't think most "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs stack up any worse than most "My boyfriend is my boyfriend" songs on Top 40 radio. But obviously if you listen widely, you can find Christian artists who are doing things a lot more interesting than that, both musically and lyrically.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I was using 'you' in the generic sense of course, mr cheesy ie. 'if anyone' ...

So, no, I wasn't addressing it to anyone here if that's what you were suggesting.

And yes, it's highly unlikely that anyone would try to get me to listen to CCM or even contemporary worship songs as I avoid most services that are likely to contain such material.

The only time I encounter contemporary worship songs and choruses these days is in the context of ecumenical gatherings where they tend to include one or two to please the evangelicals ...

At least in such contexts they only sing them through twice rather than over and over and over and over and over and ...



We'll still sort of involved with our local evangelical Anglican parish. My wife is playing the organ there tomorrow at the 9am service, which tends to be more traditional in tone but snake-belly low ...

I'll probably skip it. It's not a communion service and I know who's preaching - a lay reader - and I don't want to listen to him droning on and on and on presenting trite insights as if they are profound reflections of some kind ...

He means well, bless him ...

Meanwhile, @Kaplan, ok .. fair point ...



I'm not saying that hymnody always has to be challenging or edgy, nor that there aren't some more 'cutting edge' or interesting CCM artists around - I'm sure there are.

But so what? One cow-pat might look a more interesting than another cow-pat - some more whirls, a hollow with some sepia-tinted rainwater in it ... a few more flies - but it's still a cow-pat ...
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, I'm not sure that looking for loopholes in Hildegard of Bingen's ouevre gets us very far ...

What is Kaplan trying to say?

---

Simply that whatever the distinctive faults of CCM might consist of, lack of lament and confrontation is not one of them, since this particular absence is common to practically all Christian music, and always has been.

Loopholes?

---

quote:

---

I'd be happy to find a popular song (specific genre doesn't matter) that one might hear on the radio and that could be classed as a lament (by a faithful Christian--pissed off is fine, atheistic is not). Preferably several, for various occasions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
Someone above said one cannot connect CCM with the KKK. Well, there is a corollary between the fundamentalist churches that favor CCM and racism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
if anyone thinks Hildegard of Bingen and CCM belong in the same 'genre'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Here's some more-or-less contemporary contemplative Christian lament from the 'classical' tradition, this one available not-on-cassette and without words.

It's only 6 min long. If you listen to it, give it your full attention.


If you couldn't manage that, the TL:DR version is that it pivots on what happens at 3 min dead. It doesn't happen before, nor after, though at several points it looks like it might. By the time you realise the good bit isn't coming back, it's over.

As the comedy TV vicar often observes, 'life's a bit like that, isn't it'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Give me a blues version of Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho before any of those every single day of the week.

---

quote:

---

I can see that having been puzzled by Arvo Part I need someone to take me by the hand and walk me through it.

---

If you find someone, let me know. This is the only bit of instrumental music I can think of, off the top of my head, that might have revealed its meaning to me.

Meanwhile LC I thought of someone else who is more contemporary (and American!) you might want to listen to in times like this - Sufjan Stevens. Some middle-recent stuff is very bleepy - he went on a kind of prog-rock and then electronica trip for a while - but the recent 'Carrie and Lowell' is lament, for his parents and childhood as far as I can make out, and moving.

He's in danger of being this generation's 'successful artist that Christians can claim as their own', perhaps like U2 were in my day.

For some reason some of this is on youtube at the moment for you to check out. This is prog-electronica which I wouldn't normally like, but this time (and in times like these) I do. It might be a bit raw for you.


I want to be well I want to be well i want to be well I want to be well I want to be well i want to be well I want to be well I want to be well...I'm not fucking around
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
There is, of course, a difference between CCM and contemporary 'worship' music.

The problem has arisen where solo singers have been used as worship leaders and the congregation sings along to them in the style of said worship singer, which, to my mind, is not really congregational singing.

The mark of a good tune in my view is whether it can be sung acappela by a group of people without the solo voice being the guide voice.

I don't mind Christian pop and rock music for listening purposes as long as it can compete with the best secular music.

I would LOVE to be a member of a church where the congregational music is led by a heavy metal band.

How about
THIS for a different take on an old revivalist hymn?

I'd happily have these in services where I'm preaching...



[ 06. May 2017, 09:20: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
 

---

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Give me a blues version of Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho before any of those every single day of the week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... I would LOVE to be a member of a church where the congregational music is led by a heavy metal band.

How about
THIS for a different take on an old revivalist hymn?

I'd happily have these in services where I'm preaching...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Is it just me, foul mouthed hypocrite that I am, very mainly when alone in a very inner Tourettes unleashed manner, and occasionally here, but I baulk at the Anglo Saxon title in a public Christian space? Where our best wares are on show?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I am on the opposite end of this issue from Pomona, being only an occasional and very unwilling visitor into the world of contemporary Christian music, but one thing I can tell you is that classical religious music absolutely does emotion, including the length, breadth, depth and height of love. The last time I felt that was listening to James Newby singing the final bass aria in the St Matthew Passion.

Equally, when singing in the same tradition, I feel the same tenderness and love when singing, for example, in Christ's voice in Thomas Tallis's setting of If ye love me.

Don't tell me that classical music lacks emotion, or tenderness, or whatever. Maybe you lack the tools to access, but that is your fault, as probably is mine to access anything other than profound banality in 99% of what qualifies as worship music by some miracle, despite its inability to inspire worship of anyone other than the singer. That's my reaction to it, born of experience of performing and a relatively lack of experience of that particular genre.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Could someone clarify the difference between CCM and contemporary worship songs? I feel like the former, if I'm right about the difference, is more common in the US. Certainly over here you wouldn't get outwardly secular businesses or radio stations playing it as I believe does happen in the US, over here it's reserved for the few explicitly Christian radio stations that exist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I am on the opposite end of this issue from Pomona, being only an occasional and very unwilling visitor into the world of contemporary Christian music, but one thing I can tell you is that classical religious music absolutely does emotion, including the length, breadth, depth and height of love. The last time I felt that was listening to James Newby singing the final bass aria in the St Matthew Passion.

Equally, when singing in the same tradition, I feel the same tenderness and love when singing, for example, in Christ's voice in Thomas Tallis's setting of If ye love me.

Don't tell me that classical music lacks emotion, or tenderness, or whatever. Maybe you lack the tools to access, but that is your fault, as probably is mine to access anything other than profound banality in 99% of what qualifies as worship music by some miracle, despite its inability to inspire worship of anyone other than the singer. That's my reaction to it, born of experience of performing and a relatively lack of experience of that particular genre.

---

quote:

---

I´d say that most music in most genres has only a minor interest in the problem of life being ´horrible´. Traditional church music certainly doesn´t emphasise this theme, although it does appear from time to time.

---

That's too broad a statement to be true. Most opera deals with love, its loss, separation and death. Requiems generally are not about the loveliness of extinction. Metal, death metal and prog rock are more often than not about the horribleness of life. Of course there are lots of genres in music where there is no such imputed emotional regard at all.

I'd also argue that traditional church music very much and does very often regard this theme with incredible skill. Just look at the various settings of the psalms down through the years; both ancient and contemporary, which deal with the raw emotion of life being pants in an incredibly perceptive way. The music of holy week, advent, hymns that are sung at all times throughout the year all have this theme present and deal with it with a large degree of sensitivity and emotional and spiritual care. To say such themes are not present in any significant way in the vast catalogue of music or specifically of Christianity is simply incorrect.

That said, there is a slew of very recent (as in the last two decades specifically) Christian music that does appear to move away from that theme of lament. Part of this is undoubtedly a modern proclivity and a cultural theme (whether pacific to a geographical area or a church denomination or type is perhaps a subject for another debate) and of course, churning out songs that are relatively easy to sing in a constant C Major chord is pretty easy to do. However the last twenty years or so does not amount to the vast back catalogue of Christian music.
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Pacific should read, specific.
 

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Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 
for Lamb Chopped and her sister.

Some of the criticism of contemporary worship is deserved. But by no means all. I am with Pomona, and others, on this.

LC is right about there not being enough songs of lament though.

So this may be very rare, but here is at least ONE song of lament from the Vineyard stable. It's pretty old now. I've always liked it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hujNAmtA0c

Also of note is Audrey Assad, an American Syrian (her family were refugees) who is now a Catholic. I like her music, which is thoughtful, and she has a lovely voice. Here's her song 'Even unto death':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAfp8vg4Jz8

I also love tons of trad choral stuff from various eras, up to the present day. Love me some Byrd, Taverner (and Tavener), Tallis, Palestrina, etc.

(Also adore the 1982 album 'A Feather on the Breath of God', Emma Kirkby and Gothic Voices singing Hildegard of Bingen.)

[ 06. May 2017, 16:37: Message edited by: Laurelin ]
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
fletcher christian

Ah, opera! We should all be familiar with what it has to offer, but I´m not there yet.

Your church reference was to traditional Anglican (and RC?) fare, which isn´t what I was thinking of, but you provide food for thought. Do the ancient denominations find it easier to express human suffering through music than newer ones? Are the Lutherans more open about human suffering than the Pentecostals, for example?

If so, why? Why is it ´popular´ for Christians not to sing about misery? Is it that those who are the closest to misery would rather sing to cheer themselves up?

Well, misery is all relative and we all suffer to some degree, so perhaps it has more to do with differences in personality, as I suggested before. It´s surely a good thing that ´happy´ people have churches of their own to attend. Perhaps the real tragedy occurs when they take over churches attended by serious people!
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
If you can't hear lament and longing among Pentecostals you're going to the wrong shack! As for the 'fare', I was speaking of the broad spectrum of all Christian music, not just one denomination or two.
 

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Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Laurelin wrote:

quote:

---

[Votive] for Lamb Chopped and her sister.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:

I struggle with a lot of classical music as my ADHD finds verse-chorus-verse-chorus and simpler melodies easier to cope with. So it is quite hurtful to be told that it's my fault that I lack the tools to find classical music appealling. I realise it wasn't intended that way, but there are many obstacles to appreciating classical music and that's worth bearing in mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
If you can't hear lament and longing among Pentecostals you're going to the wrong shack! As for the 'fare', I was speaking of the broad spectrum of all Christian music, not just one denomination or two.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Perhaps I'm the only one who likes them then. They mean something to me, whereas 'O God you are so big, so absolutely huge, we're all pretty impressed down here, I can tell you!" leaves me cold. I don't understand what God gets out of our apparent toadying.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Perhaps I'm the only one who likes them then. They mean something to me, whereas 'O God you are so big, so absolutely huge, we're all pretty impressed down here, I can tell you!" leaves me cold. I don't understand what God gets out of our apparent toadying.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Perhaps I'm the only one who likes them then. They mean something to me, whereas 'O God you are so big, so absolutely huge, we're all pretty impressed down here, I can tell you!" leaves me cold. I don't understand what God gets out of our apparent toadying.

---

If it is toadying, I expect he loathes it. Wouldn't any decent person?

But not all praise is toadying. A lot of it is simple enjoyment. You'll have heard this when people are talking about something they're passionately into--a new girlfriend, a sports team, some place they went on vacation (and then there are the Apple users).

They aren't toadying, but they say a bunch of stuff that could be interpreted that way if you didn't know better. And some of them are simply nuts, but nobody doubts their pleasure in whatever-it-is, even as we all head for the opposite side of the room at a party.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...If the old ways were best why didn´t people just stick with them?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Is it just me, foul mouthed hypocrite that I am, very mainly when alone in a very inner Tourettes unleashed manner, and occasionally here, but I baulk at the Anglo Saxon title in a public Christian space? Where our best wares are on show?

---

Yes.

Mudfrog - I do have a copy of "Awesome God" - which is a trite piece of drivel - done in a metal style - complete with growling vocals. Far better than the original.

It would cause most people in churches I have been in to have heart attacks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Is it just me, foul mouthed hypocrite that I am, very mainly when alone in a very inner Tourettes unleashed manner, and occasionally here, but I baulk at the Anglo Saxon title in a public Christian space? Where our best wares are on show?

---

Yes.

Mudfrog - I do have a copy of "Awesome God" - which is a trite piece of drivel - done in a metal style - complete with growling vocals. Far better than the original.

It would cause most people in churches I have been in to have heart attacks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:


ETA: This means, of course, that one and the same song could be toadying from one person and real praise from another. So much depends on the motive, and also the attitude of the heart. Do you enjoy God (to put it crassly)? Or are you just trying to get something out of him, and think praise is the shortest way to that goal?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Is it just me, foul mouthed hypocrite that I am, very mainly when alone in a very inner Tourettes unleashed manner, and occasionally here, but I baulk at the Anglo Saxon title in a public Christian space? Where our best wares are on show?

---

Yes.

Mudfrog - I do have a copy of "Awesome God" - which is a trite piece of drivel - done in a metal style - complete with growling vocals. Far better than the original.

It would cause most people in churches I have been in to have heart attacks.

---

I'd love to hear this too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


The point I'm trying to make is that if I want to listen to U2, I'll listen to U2 - not some sub-standard CCM approximation.

[...]

Of course, a lot of this is going to be subjective and down to individual taste - no 'right or wrong answers' as it were ...

But I think we can all generally tell when something has that spark of authenticity and integrity about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This idea that some churches are offering ´bollocks´ instead of worship is interesting. We might well ask why we´re in this state after centuries of supposedly the finest examples of church music and worshipping practices that any religion could wish for.

If the old ways were best why didn´t people just stick with them?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
SvitlanaV2, did you actually read my post?

I wasn't talking about the music played or sung in churches. I was talking about CCM which is music recorded for entertainment purposes not necessarily or primarily for use in church ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:
... But a fair amount of the thread could be summarized with the single phrase 'survivor bias' - sure you can critique the modern hymns which end up as theologically treatises, but I doubt if things were any better when Wesley and Toplady were writing hymns at each other.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Question, just for fun: is the purpose of church music to allow the congregants to sing, or is the music provided as performance which the congregants watch/listen to/are entertained by? Very different sets of assumptions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:


A choir should attempt to do its best because we should attempt to do our best in all of worship. But what the choir does should never be a performance for the congregation. The choir's role is to lead the congregation in making music, not to replace the congregation or to perform for it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
I do note that anytime I have listened to CCM I do not hear anything concerning the plight of the poor or the oppressed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
ISTM that the problem with much of CCM is that it is fake. Whilst acknowledging that there are sincere people involved, it feels so often that there are many who are just in it for the money, who would not survive in the wider "music scene", who play out massive sell-out arenas for captive audiences and who otherwise would struggle to fill a front room.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:


If its true for Alt-Metal i bet its also true for all the other genres.
The US is big enough to sustain a living from the Christians pockets. Wouldnt fly in the UK, as there just isnt enough money floating around, but also here, the group of people you network with is so small, someone would talk.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
SvitlanaV2, did you actually read my post?

I wasn't talking about the music played or sung in churches. I was talking about CCM which is music recorded for entertainment purposes not necessarily or primarily for use in church ...

---

OK, so you´re talking about music that you don´t have to sing, listen to at church or even pay good money to listen to in your own home if you don´t want to.

That being the case, why is it worth getting so cross about? I´m sorry for being ill-informed and failing to get the point, but isnt´t this stuff totally easy to ... ignore? If it´s not easy to ignore I genuinely want to know why. I´d like to understand why there are Christians who want to escape this stuff but can´t.

Otherwise, it´s like me railing against hardcore techno. Why would I want it to ´fuck off´ if it has nothing to do with me or my life anyway?

---

This.

 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
But this is a problem all professional bands have. Should Bruce Springsteen hire the bass guitarist who's his best buddy in high school? Or should he hire the one who can actually play? (There's a reason they call him the Boss.) So, you can envision the established Christian band now ISO a rhythm guitar. Maybe they'll just go with the really good player and not apply a religious test on top of that.

And, as to playing new and more edgy stuff: this too is a common problem in the arts. Over in one of the pastoring threads the same complaint is noted: the new pastor arrives and the flock demands new, but all they actually want is what they knew before. Do you play only your hits? Or do you try out new stuff which your audience will yawn at? It's easier for musicians to balance this (sprinkle in the beloved oldies among the new stuff, conclude by blasting out "Born to Run") but when the art is longer, a play, a novel, a ministry, then it's difficult.

[ 08. May 2017, 13:38: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
 

---

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
I do note that anytime I have listened to CCM I do not hear anything concerning the plight of the poor or the oppressed.

---

Have you encountered Gungor? Maybe not CCM these days as they have been (more than a bit) ostrasised by the folk who like CCM.

https://relevantmagazine.com/slice/watch-gungors-powerful-video-about-refugees/

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
ISTM that the problem with much of CCM is that it is fake. Whilst acknowledging that there are sincere people involved, it feels so often that there are many who are just in it for the money, who would not survive in the wider "music scene", who play out massive sell-out arenas for captive audiences and who otherwise would struggle to fill a front room.

Although there are obviously various styles, it mostly sounds the same and the lyrics are combinations of the same tired thoughts.

It is almost (or perhaps even deliberately) hypnotic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
ISTM that the problem with much of CCM is that it is fake. Whilst acknowledging that there are sincere people involved, it feels so often that there are many who are just in it for the money,

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
As a famous composer (I think, Stravinsky) said: the musical scale begins and ends with dough. Artistic integrity doesn't buy many sandwiches.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
As a famous composer (I think, Stravinsky) said: the musical scale begins and ends with dough. Artistic integrity doesn't buy many sandwiches.

---

For sure - I don't know the history, was Stravinsky writing exclusively for a Christian/church audience?

I absolutely believe composers have extorted the church through the centuries. I'm not sure where we are disagreeing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Is it just me, foul mouthed hypocrite that I am, very mainly when alone in a very inner Tourettes unleashed manner, and occasionally here, but I baulk at the Anglo Saxon title in a public Christian space? Where our best wares are on show?

---

Yes.

Mudfrog - I do have a copy of "Awesome God" - which is a trite piece of drivel - done in a metal style - complete with growling vocals. Far better than the original.

It would cause most people in churches I have been in to have heart attacks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beatmenace:


If its true for Alt-Metal i bet its also true for all the other genres.
The US is big enough to sustain a living from the Christians pockets. Wouldnt fly in the UK, as there just isnt enough money floating around, but also here, the group of people you network with is so small, someone would talk.

---

I've heard similar. The thing is far smaller in the UK, but is obviously taking the lead from the far bigger scene in the USA.

I've known musicians who briefly became a "thing" in British CCM who showed no sign of Christian commitment before or since. I strongly suspect in at least one case they saw it as an opportunity to cash in on an untapped market and then got out of it when the expected profits didn't start rolling in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
With SvitlanaV2 and cliffdweller. Why should any of us want to throw rocks at other people's windows?

---

Because it's fun?

Because these people behave in a way that invites us to throw rocks through their windows?

Because this is the Magazine of Christian Unrest and it's an unrestful thing to do to throw rocks through people's windows?

Because I'm a bastard?

Or a combination of all those things and much more besides?



But seriously, yes, CCM isn't alone in having its problems. There are indeed issues around classical musicians playing 'sacred music' without having any faith - and the same applies to cathedral choristers and so on.

No tradition is immune to any of that.

I once heard of a Greek Orthodox Church in London which didn't have a choir or anyone who could act as cantor - so they paid a Male Voice Choir from London's sizeable Welsh community to come and do the honours ...

They were given the music and the words were written out for them phonetically. So each Sunday these Welsh fellas would turn up and intone the chants using the pronunciation they were given and without the first idea what it was they were singing ...

Of course, that's an extreme example but I deploy it in the interests of balance.

Before I bend down to find myself some more rocks ...


 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yes, but it goes far far beyond that with CCM.

The musicians there are directly marketing their products to Christians on the basis that they are also Christians, not on the basis that it is nice and uplifting music.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once heard of a Greek Orthodox Church in London which didn't have a choir or anyone who could act as cantor - so they paid a Male Voice Choir from London's sizeable Welsh community to come and do the honours ...

They were given the music and the words were written out for them phonetically. So each Sunday these Welsh fellas would turn up and intone the chants using the pronunciation they were given and without the first idea what it was they were singing ...

Of course, that's an extreme example but I deploy it in the interests of balance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once heard of a Greek Orthodox Church in London which didn't have a choir or anyone who could act as cantor - so they paid a Male Voice Choir from London's sizeable Welsh community to come and do the honours ...

They were given the music and the words were written out for them phonetically. So each Sunday these Welsh fellas would turn up and intone the chants using the pronunciation they were given and without the first idea what it was they were singing ...

Of course, that's an extreme example but I deploy it in the interests of balance.

---

If they were Christians albeit of a different tradition I wouldn't call that "more extreme"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:


A choir should attempt to do its best because we should attempt to do our best in all of worship. But what the choir does should never be a performance for the congregation. The choir's role is to lead the congregation in making music, not to replace the congregation or to perform for it.

---

In practice, though, "led worship" is almost always a form of performance, which is why in low Charismatic and Evangelical settings there is such a direct cross-over between music which is made for listening to (CCM as discussed above) and music made for church.

I've been loads of times to choral services at Canterbury Cathedral, and there are significant proportions of the service which are performance by the choir. One service I recall had a setting which was supposed to sound like church bells.

Of course, there is a level at which there are at least some in the congregation who are entirely familiar with the purpose of the various parts of an Anglican (and presumably in a similar way a RCC or Orthodox) choral service and truly are using it to lead their worship. But I don't think it is any less performance for all that.

If we say that the drum-and-guitar model of church is a complete contrast, it isn't much less a performance for all that. Those playing are often on a stage with the congregation watching and participation may be not much more than singing along with their favourite track at home.

Even the great organ and hymn tradition is so often about loud noises and performance.

I don't think performance should be considered a dirty word with regard to church - and it seems to me that there is a lot of finger-pointing going on from different traditions which have exactly the same benefits and drawbacks as the thing they're criticising.

As a footnote, I know reasonably well a congregation which sings a range of songs in their church vocabulary, apparently "unled" and acapella. But it isn't any less performance for all that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Gamaliel (and others)

This is a group from the London Welsh Male Voice Choir (sometimes with people from the London Welsh Chorale). Both choirs do regular concerts and are secular.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I want to know if there is anything like a biblical lament in modern Christian pop, or is it all this "you're so victorious" shit with occasional excursions into "God pulls me up when I'm feeling down."

I would like something singable to growl at God occasionally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The problem, AndyHB, is that CCM thought and thinks of your two 'conditionals' as either/ or: it failed/ fails to realise that you can be a Christian and still suffer from that depression, that 'progressive' disease, that cancer, etc. It's message to people on such states, with a few noble exceptions, is basically " Cheer up, everyone, let's have a sing-song. Isn't God marvellous!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The problem, AndyHB, is that CCM thought and thinks of your two 'conditionals' as either/ or: it failed/ fails to realise that you can be a Christian and still suffer from that depression, that 'progressive' disease, that cancer, etc. It's message to people on such states, with a few noble exceptions, is basically " Cheer up, everyone, let's have a sing-song. Isn't God marvellous!"

---

And you think traditional old-school hymnody (with notable exceptions) is any different in that regard?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seedsower:
I agree there is wayyyyy too much triumphalism in today's Christian pop. Here's a thought: I d I thinkon't know if this has been done but why don't a group of talented Christians get together and put on "Job The Musical" I am not being facetious I think it could, if done right kick something new off in Christianity. Just a thought.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The guy has oodles of integrity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stonespring:
Secular pop music is largely insipid as well, but it seems diverse compared with the Christian pop on the radio and the worship music heard in many churches. Is this because the people making and listening to secular pop music are more diverse than the people making and listening to mainstream Christian pop music?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The problem, AndyHB, is that CCM thought and thinks of your two 'conditionals' as either/ or: it failed/ fails to realise that you can be a Christian and still suffer from that depression, that 'progressive' disease, that cancer, etc. It's message to people on such states, with a few noble exceptions, is basically " Cheer up, everyone, let's have a sing-song. Isn't God marvellous!"

---

And you think traditional old-school hymnody (with notable exceptions) is any different in that regard?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The problem, AndyHB, is that CCM thought and thinks of your two 'conditionals' as either/ or: it failed/ fails to realise that you can be a Christian and still suffer from that depression, that 'progressive' disease, that cancer, etc. It's message to people on such states, with a few noble exceptions, is basically " Cheer up, everyone, let's have a sing-song. Isn't God marvellous!"

---

And you think traditional old-school hymnody (with notable exceptions) is any different in that regard?

---

It's more God-centric and focuses on His attributes rather than how we (should) feel about life, as a rule.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by stonespring:
Secular pop music is largely insipid as well, but it seems diverse compared with the Christian pop on the radio and the worship music heard in many churches. Is this because the people making and listening to secular pop music are more diverse than the people making and listening to mainstream Christian pop music?

---

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here by saying that secular pop music sounds more diverse because the one rule of secular pop music is "does it make money?".

Whereas Christian pop music has very many more strictures, none of which are based on how good it sounds. Thus Christian pop music ends up being more crap than its secular counterpart.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't say this to 'defend' traditional hymns over and against contemporary worship songs and choruses but I think - as Matt Black and Zappa have indicated - that it's pretty axiomatic that - whilst there is certainly more range and variety than critics might allow - the more traditional hymns and liturgies do cover 'more ground' than the contemporary worship songs and so on do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Dare I descend to stereotyping and suggest that the results you describe for your survey might just have something to do with:

1) The location ie. the USA.

2) The particular tradition/s surveyed.

3) Confirmation bias.

I don't say this to 'defend' traditional hymns over and against contemporary worship songs and choruses but I think - as Matt Black and Zappa have indicated - that it's pretty axiomatic that - whilst there is certainly more range and variety than critics might allow - the more traditional hymns and liturgies do cover 'more ground' than the contemporary worship songs and so on do.

For a kick-off, if you're in a church which attempts to some degree to follow a Calendar or lectionary then there is at least some attempt to match the hymnody to the seasonal themes if not the lectionary readings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by goperryrevs:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't say this to 'defend' traditional hymns over and against contemporary worship songs and choruses but I think - as Matt Black and Zappa have indicated - that it's pretty axiomatic that - whilst there is certainly more range and variety than critics might allow - the more traditional hymns and liturgies do cover 'more ground' than the contemporary worship songs and so on do.

---

If you're talking traditional hymns, you've got a good few hundred years to draw from. CCM, you've got a handful of decades. Pick any random hymn/song that's ever been written, and the likelihood is that you'll get something average and uninspiring. It's just a numbers game. I'd guess that the percentage of genuinely brilliant hymns and genuinely brilliant Christian pop are pretty equivalent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok. I'll buy that ... But my concern isn't simply that happy-clappy predominates over lament, say ... Rather that the whole trajectory if you like of the Christian story is being whittled down to subjectivity, 'my favourite bits' and lowest common denominator feel-good factor bilge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The whole trajectory if you like of the Christian story is being whittled down to subjectivity, 'my favourite bits' and lowest common denominator feel-good factor bilge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE]
The RCC remains the world's largest denomination, and is certainly not a hotbed of musical 'bilge', AFAIK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seedsower:
I agree there is wayyyyy too much triumphalism in today's Christian pop. Here's a thought: I d I thinkon't know if this has been done but why don't a group of talented Christians get together and put on "Job The Musical" I am not being facetious I think it could, if done right kick something new off in Christianity. Just a thought.

---

Michael Card sort of did it (and if you want non-triumphal music with lyrical depth he's a good option). I can't remember which album it was on but he did a kind of Job mini-opera.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stonespring:
Here in the US, most RCC parishes use mostly contemporary hymns for their music (although usually with piano/organ/acoustic guitar accompaniment rather than a band).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tilting at the highly commercialised world of CCM and the highly commercialised 'worship music' scene which started out raw and authentic - in my view - and which has been hijacked by the marketing and the money men ...

---

quote:

---

for people who grew up after Vatican II or who grew up outside the RCC I think these contemporary hymns sound like dated 1960s folk tunes with lyrics that sometimes seem like they are from children's television shows (again - in my opinion).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelfish:
I reckon there's about as much drivel around in the contemporary Christian music scene now as there has ever been. How many hymns did Charles Wesley write? (between 6,000 and 9,000 depending on your source) - and how many do we still sing today? He wrote some great ones, but some were not, and they have thankfully faded into the mists of time.

Music and songs from the past that we still find value in are the best of their era. This then leads to a misconception that it's only modern music that is lacking in depth, maturity, clarity, musicality and what have you. Come back in 50 or 100 years' time and see which of the Kendrick/Redman/Fellingham/Townsend/Keyes/Baloche things people are singing and you might think 2017 was a great year, but it will simply be because only the best has survived.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelfish:

Lamb Chopped, your OP reminded me of a song by Godfrey Birtill (sort of Ishmael for adults). He writes a lot of very simple songs. There's one called "We have waited, but He's not come" As far as I recall, this is the only line in the chorus apart from the last line, "There must be something wrong". Sums up how I feel most of the time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But as I keep saying, this thread isn't about praise and worship music, your Kendricks and your Townsend's and the RC equivalents - it's supposed to be about CCM - Christian rock and pop and all that malarkey.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelfish:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But as I keep saying, this thread isn't about praise and worship music, your Kendricks and your Townsend's and the RC equivalents - it's supposed to be about CCM - Christian rock and pop and all that malarkey.

---

There's a big crossover between what's played on Christian radio and what's sung by congregations who like contemporary songs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I get that, angelfish but the whole contemporary Christian music scene seems quite dislocated from the Calendar to me ...

---

But is that really a problem? If that were the only Christian input in a person's life I think you'd have reason for concern, but presumably the CCM radio listening people are also attending churches somewhere, where there is hopefully a sense of the calendar and a more varied spiritual diet. I very much doubt those radio stations are tuned into by non-church people, so they are providing only part of a much larger musical/theological input into the lives of their listeners.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think it is a cause of concern, angelfish. I don't doubt that the people who listen to Christian radio stations are receiving input from churches and belong to house-groups and fellowship groups and so on ...

Some of these people give very generously to support Christian radio stations, which are largely financed by donations and advertising, of course.

But what I am concerned about more generally is a kind of 'flattening' of Christian input of all kinds - both on radio stations like this and across the church scene more generally - to the extent that contemporary Christianity is becoming a kind of feel-good factor form of self-help therapy ...

Of course - big-word alert - I think there is a place for the theandric and thaumaturgical (I got those from a sociological text on religion ... ) but for quite some time now I've been disturbed and concerned by the trajectory of much contemporary evangelicalism and charismatic spirituality.

I'm not singling those out for censure above more liberal or MoTR forms of Christianity, but that's the side of things I've known best ... and I'm concerned about what I see.

On a personal note, my wife has incurable cancer.

As we left an evangelical service yesterday, someone - in a very well-meaning but naive way - asked whether she was 'getting better.'

I explained to him, very politely, that whilst we are grateful that the treatment is currently holding things in check, my wife isn't going to get better. The cancer isn't going to go away.

Now, I can envisage some even quite mainstream evangelical / charismatic settings where this wouldn't 'compute' - where they wouldn't accept this and be all keen to lay on hands and so on ...

In such instances I'm afraid I would echo the words of the title of the OP and tell them where to go in no uncertain terms.

I'm happy for people to pray. I'm happy for people to show concern. But if anyone came up with some kind of glib solution or told us to pray harder, believe harder, do this, that or the other - then I am afraid they would get very short shrift.

Don't get me wrong, if people want to listen to pop-pap CCM or dumbed-down 'ooh-ooh Jesus, Jesus, Jesus' type worship songs and choruses then that's up to them.

Just don't expect me to do it.

And yes, of course there're contemporary worship songs and probably CCM that doesn't conform to that stereotype - and jolly good show for that.

But overall, I'm afraid that with some notable exceptions the popular evangelical charismatic world has sold-out and succumbed to the blandishments of the marketing and the money men - as well as securing itself too firmly to the zeit-geist.

And you know what happens to those who are wedded to the spirit of the age. They are widowed to it in the next.
 

---

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelfish:
But is that really a problem? If that were the only Christian input in a person's life I think you'd have reason for concern, but presumably the CCM radio listening people are also attending churches somewhere, where there is hopefully a sense of the calendar and a more varied spiritual diet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelfish:

Chris Stiles - how much "intellectual heft" is there at the popular end of anything? Surely almost by definition there is always going to be a big crowd of people ("the masses") with less mental acuity than the intellectual elite who, according to popular belief, should be the leaders.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What I am concerned about more generally is a kind of 'flattening' of Christian input of all kinds - both on radio stations like this and across the church scene more generally - to the extent that contemporary Christianity is becoming a kind of feel-good factor form of self-help therapy ...

Of course - big-word alert - I think there is a place for the theandric and thaumaturgical (I got those from a sociological text on religion ... ) but for quite some time now I've been disturbed and concerned by the trajectory of much contemporary evangelicalism and charismatic spirituality.

I'm not singling those out for censure above more liberal or MoTR forms of Christianity, but that's the side of things I've known best ... and I'm concerned about what I see.

---

Well, to be fair, you are mostly singling those out for censure. You mention the others as an afterthought. But you speak of what you know, as you say, so that's understandable.

There also seems to be an anxiety that evangelicalism is what matters, so if its musical or liturgical habits are poor, that seems to colour the whole religion. On the British scene, the others matter less because they've shrunk so much. A polite sorrow may be expressed at their plight, but who really cares about what MOTR Methodists, URC or even Anglicans do when there are so few of them and likely to be almost none in the next 20 years? Who has any advice to offer them? Who wants to add to their unease with serious censure?

Evangelicals are due to dominate all British denominations by 2020. (I think it'll take a little longer). But overall, it sounds as if British Christianity will be so fragile that what music evangelicals (along with the other lonely stragglers) listen to will hardly matter. In fact, how will there even be a 'popular Christian' market to exploit when the demand is so low? Maybe it'll all be American stuff, but I don't think there'll be much money for the Americans to make here.

In terms of 'traditional' church liturgies and music, perhaps in future these will be promoted as therapeutic, or as examples of a beautiful cultural heritage, rather than as expressions of religious faith as such.
 

---

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
Gamaliel--

No trite answers, but I do and will pray.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Thanks folks - I only share the personal information because I think it's pertinent to this thread ... the OP started with a rant about CCM based on its alleged triteness and incapacity to deal with the heavy stuff ...

But thanks for your prayers and concern. My wife wouldn't thank me for saying this, but she is being exceptionally brave.

We're doing ok at the moment as the treatment is holding things in check but obviously the time will come when it no longer does so.

At that point I'm sure we'll find solace in music - among other things - but not CCM ...



Meanwhile - takes deep breath - yes, SvitlanaV2 I was reserving my fire and my ire for CCM and the evo-charismatic constituency but as I've said, that's only because it's where I've come from and the 'sector' I know best ...

I'm not actually aware that there is ANY CCM (as opposed to hymnody) from the MoTR and liberal sectors ...

If there was then I'd give that some kind of critique too ...

As I've said several times, this isn't a thread about hymns and worship songs but about CCM - and yes, I know that the two are linked in some quarters but I still think there's a distinction to be made.

As it happens, I do care what happens to MoTR Methodist, URC and Anglican congregations. I'm not indifferent to their plight.

I suppose my attitude towards evangelicalism these days is that we certainly 'need' it - but I worry about certain dumbed-down trends and emphasises.

At one time I would have suggested that people on the way out from evangelicalism might tend to settle in more MoTR or liberal settings. I don't think this is happening so much these days. I think what happens now is that ex-evangelicals tend to fall out altogether ... partly because they've been told that those nasty liberal and MoTR churches down the road aren't the real deal and partly because of the kind of 'needs' they've had met to a certain extent in evangelical circles.

They've had the whoopy-doopy happy-clappy roller-coaster thing ... and can't see how MoTR or liberal or more liturgical churches can somehow fulfil that or fill that void.

I am struggling to express what I mean here ...

I don't mean it to be dismissive.

But in some ways I'd suggest that there's a 'hit' that is delivered in both charismatic / Pentecostal or more definite 'we've got the truth' types of churches that is always going to missing across the alternatives. I'd suggest that the RCs and the Orthodox also deliver that kind of 'hit' too - albeit in a different kind of way.

I s'pose what I'm saying is that with the older traditions (and I'd include older forms of Reformed or evangelical settings in that too) there is sufficient ballast and other areas to explore once the 'hit' wears off ...

But with some evangelical and charismatic outfits there ain't actually a great deal 'there' once the initial 'hit' begins to wear off ...

I don't have an issue with people being evangelical - and yes, RCs and other more sacramentally inclined Christians can be 'evangelical' too, in a different kind of way ...

What I have an issue with is if there is no broader hinterland or frame of reference from which people can draw once the initial excitement has worn off.

Funnily enough, I read a fairly scholarly article recently about attraction - why people are physically attracted to one another and the 'purpose' that serves. Some scientists believe that the zingy attractive element is there temporarily to tie human beings over until such time as other aspects of the relationship take more centre stage - the caring aspect, the companionship ...

In a similar kind of way, I'd suggest that the more zingy and emotional kind of connections made through worship music - or CCM - or whatever else it is that gives people a buzz about churches or about the faith can keep people going until such time as they develop habits that sustain them ... be it activism, be it contemplation, be it whatever else ...

But if all you had was the zingy and the zappy, then that wouldn't take you very far.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
So, let's see. Charismatic evangelicalism provides a 'hit'. It's sugary nonsense, but it makes everything else seem boring.

IMO it's a victim of its own success - or of the failure of everything else. Being (almost) the only game in town charismatic evangelicalism attracts anyone with any kind of energy to give to the religion. This leads to a drop in standards, including musical and liturgical standards, because its members aren't bothered about these things. If the liturgical standards were raised they would leave, and since the secular culture provides very few others to take their place, the 'improved' churches would shrink.

Of course, these churches are destined to shrink anyway. As I say, I should think the demand for CCM is going to shrink along with them, so the problem may resolve itself. On the plus side, if you believe in a cyclical view of church history there may well be a return to more liturgical evangelicalism. I'd be interested to know if that's what you think.

Meanwhile, although you care what happens to the MOTR, they offer nothing that anyone actually wants, so 'caring' about their plight seems rather meaningless. 'Regretting' would be a better word.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Either I'm not explaining myself very well or you're misunderstanding me.

No, I don't think that charismatic evangelicalism - at its best - is 'sugary nonsense'. At its core I think it's got something very, very real.

The reason I'm so concerned about it is that I don't want to see it exchange what is good, wholesome and real for a mess of sugary pottage.

I think there is a danger of that. Hence my concern.

And yes, I agree that charismatic evangelicalism is a victim of its own success. I remember seeing a sociologist from Lancaster University - who has done some interesting work on religious observance in Kendal and other towns in the North West - make a telling observation on a BBC documentary about the possible future of Christianity in the UK.

The point she made was this: 'The evangelicals have somehow convinced everybody that to be a Christian you have to be an extrovert and do uncomfortable things such as dancing around and speaking in tongues ... So anyone who isn't prepared to do any of that is immediately going to be put off by it ...'

Or words to that effect.

That's what bothers me.

The 'hinterland' is shrinking to the extent that it's seen that charismatic evangelicalism is almost the only game in town.

However ... what I do anticipate is that some charismatic evangelicals - particularly those of a more 'emergent' bent - will morph in the same way as the early Quakers did - towards a more quietist form of faith - but one allied with social action and wider concerns.

Whether they can do that whilst retaining some kind of evangelistic fervour remains to be seen - but I fully expect some charismatic outfits to become less obviously charismatic over the next few decades - that's already started happening and is a process that has been going on for some time.

No, I don't see a return to a more liturgical evangelicalism. Some of the alt-worship stuff about 20 years ago now looked like it was heading that way, and possibly some of the trendy 'curated' worship still is ... but I don't think it's quite got critical mass. Excuse the unintentional pun.

I don't see more sacramental or liturgical forms of Christianity disappearing despite the decline. I suspect that the RCs and the Orthodox have some more 'go' in them, even though it might be curtains for some Anglo-Catholic parishes and although some Orthodox 'convert parishes' will fizzle out for lack of successors to take them on.

The biggest decline I foresee will be with MoTR churches like the Methodists and URCs which arguably don't offer by way of fire and fervour on the one hand nor a sense of mystery and the numinous either.

I have no idea whether there's much future for CCM. It's governed by the market-place and whilst there's market demand then it'll continue - although I can't see many places here in the UK having the resources to fund Christian radio stations and so on ...

You might be right that 'regretting' might be a more appropriate word than 'caring' - but you don't know what's inside my head so are in no position to determine whether I 'care' or not.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


No, I don't think that charismatic evangelicalism - at its best - is 'sugary nonsense'. At its core I think it's got something very, very real.

The reason I'm so concerned about it is that I don't want to see it exchange what is good, wholesome and real for a mess of sugary pottage.

---

quote:

---

'The evangelicals have somehow convinced everybody that to be a Christian you have to be an extrovert and do uncomfortable things such as dancing around and speaking in tongues ... So anyone who isn't prepared to do any of that is immediately going to be put off by it ...'

Or words to that effect.

That's what bothers me.

---

quote:

---

What I do anticipate is that some charismatic evangelicals - particularly those of a more 'emergent' bent - will morph in the same way as the early Quakers did - towards a more quietist form of faith - but one allied with social action and wider concerns.

Whether they can do that whilst retaining some kind of evangelistic fervour remains to be seen - but I fully expect some charismatic outfits to become less obviously charismatic over the next few decades - that's already started happening and is a process that has been going on for some time.

---

quote:

---

I don't see more sacramental or liturgical forms of Christianity disappearing despite the decline. I suspect that the RCs and the Orthodox have some more 'go' in them.

---

quote:

---

You might be right that 'regretting' might be a more appropriate word than 'caring' - but you don't know what's inside my head so are in no position to determine whether I 'care' or not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Evangelicalism and its critics exist in a sort of symbiotic relationship that doesn't really have an equivalent elsewhere (not even among the RCC and lapsed Catholics, IMO).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Evangelicals are due to dominate all British denominations by 2020. (I think it'll take a little longer). r than as expressions of religious faith as such.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Evangelicals are due to dominate all British denominations by 2020. (I think it'll take a little longer). r than as expressions of religious faith as such.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... My point to SvitlanaV2 wasn't that RCs aren't producing this stuff, but that MoTR and liberal Protestants aren't ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Evangelicals are due to dominate all British denominations by 2020. (I think it'll take a little longer).

---

Hardly a shocker, is it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not actually aware that there is ANY CCM (as opposed to hymnody) from the MoTR and liberal sectors ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not actually aware that there is ANY CCM (as opposed to hymnody) from the MoTR and liberal sectors ...

---

I have often been intrigued by the fact that so-called "progressive" Christianity is often very conservative when it comes to music. Is that due to:

- age (most of these folk are unlikely to like Christian "pop" music);
- social class (these folk have been socialised into "good" music, i.e. classical);
- educational background (linked to above, probably: these folk don't like "simplistic" music);
- or simply a desire to distance themselves from those awful happy-clappy evsngelicals?

I appreciate that most of what I've written has more to do with hymnody than CCM - nevertheless ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I might start a new thread entitled, 'Why liberal and MoTR hymnody can be just as toe-curlingly crass and as crap as some charismatic evangelical material ...'

Would there be any takers?

---

There's one way to find out!
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Evangelicals are due to dominate all British denominations by 2020. (I think it'll take a little longer). r than as expressions of religious faith as such.

---

The lunatics are taking over the assylum.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sometimes I think we use the word manipulation unwisely in that context, simply as a means of criticising a musical genre with which we are uncomfortable. Personally, I find music a very helpful enabler of expressing deep emotions which are already there within me. It's an aid to knowing myself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Absolutely; my point really was that this manipulation happens in many musical contexts and not just in worship - especially, if you think about it, in events that are well-devised or curated.

To take a well-known if trivial example, the conductor Thomas Beecham would end a concert with what he called a 'tranquiliser' (but which other people called a 'lollipop') as an encore, to calm the audience after a stirring climax to the programme and send them home happy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Such participations are very enjoyable human sharings, but they are not the same as offerings to an audience of One.

I think this is a source of much confusion in these discussions.

---

quote:

---

To take a well-known if trivial example, the conductor Thomas Beecham would end a concert with what he called a 'tranquiliser' (but which other people called a 'lollipop') as an encore, to calm the audience after a stirring climax to the programme and send them home happy.

---

I don't know why, but I find that quote rather moving. It's like taking good care of the audience - who knows what real struggles await them at home or at work the next day, and after wangling them around all over the place emotionally in a challenging concert, why not try to make sure they at least go to sleep happy?

I'm a sucker for benign paternalism.

Something about all this also reminds me of folks on a night out - are you with a crowd, like at wedding speeches, who want and know how to enjoy themselves and are egging the performer on - or are you with a bunch of hecklers for whom 'this is all shit'?

I'm often moving toward the latter group - I'll try to think on this the next time I'm struggling in church.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, and I've seen English lecturers laugh uproariously and annoyingly at obscure Shakespearean jokes (which aren't actually that funny) in order to demonstrate to the audience their deeper understanding of the text ...



These things happen ...

And yes, I agree with Baptist Trainfan.

On the high-brow/low-brow thing, I run a Poems & Pints event that attracts some mild 'stick' from some of my more academic poetry pals because it's knock-about and doesn't tend to contain 'high art' ... but I see it as a valuable adjunct to the other poetry things I do - like furrowed brow intense writing worshops ...

Room for both.

So yes, same with CCM as well as your Bach and Allegri I suppose ...

I'm not knocking the idea of popular music per se.

But I do think there is an imbalance in CCM that needs addressing.

That's only because it is a 'committed' form of music though. If it didn't have a Christian or ideological tag to it we wouldn't even be discussing it.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
True, but of course both “Gospel” and much classical church music has morphed from being “worship music” into “enjoyment music”. Take Bach’s cantatas, for instance.

Of course, some religious classical music was never intended for use in worship – Beethoven’s “Missa Solemnis” for example; I’m sure that’s true in the popular field too.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, again, I completely agree. I don't think there's anything 'wrong' necessarily in 'sacred music' being taken out of of its original context and listened to for enjoyment.

I listen to all sorts of 'sacred music' as well as 'secular music' - and I'm more than happy to listen to Gospel music for enjoyment, for instance. I don't have a lot of it on CD but I have some, just I have plenty of Bach, Renaissance music, Baroque music, classical music, jazz, rock, punk, reggae ...
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
What I'm not particularly interested in listening to is CCM and I never have been, even in my GLE days.
 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What I'm not particularly interested in listening to is CCM and I never have been, even in my GLE days.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What I'm not particularly interested in listening to is CCM and I never have been, even in my GLE days.

---

And yet you have made 48 posts on this thread, frequently criticising CCM and telling everyone what is wrong with it, whilst knowing almost nothing about the subject.

It's like someone writing off the whole of modern music because they hear a couple of minutes of Heart on the radio now and again.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I know more about it than you think greenhouse.

However, you are right that I have posted excessively on the issue.

Enjoy your mind-pap chewing gum.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
To be fair, yes, I have gone on and on too much and been too broad brush but if you'f read my posts properly greenhouse, you'll have seen that I have conceded / accepted that there is good CCM around.

I don't doubt that there are plenty of Christian artists who write and perform with integrity. I'm an old git now and yes, out of the loop. Back in the day I was aware of CCM artists I'd have rated more highly than others and regarded with respect ... But my argument was why bother to listen to CCM that tried to sound like The Clash of the Alarm or whoever, when you could listen to the secular originals?

CCM is largely derivative. They have been exceptions but by and large it lacks originality and simply tries to 'Christianise' secular forms. There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself - and the Church has done that throughout history at all levels.

But there we go ...
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
I don't understand the argument about originality. Apart from (wannabe) experts, who really goes on the hunt for originality? Don't most people just want to listen to music they like?

This seems to be a thread about how disappointing Christians are. It reminds me of that thread on how religion stunts your personal growth!
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
No, rather I think it's akin to your pertinent observation on the MoTR thread about Methodist churches trying to be like Anglican churches and failing in the attempt - because why create an ersatz Anglicanism when the genuine article is available?

My point was simply this, why should I listen to some derivative CCM artist trying to sound like Joe Strummer, say or Bono or whoever else when I can listen to the genuine article were I so inclined?

Those CCM artists who do stand out have generally been those few who have actually tried to sound like themselves and no emulate anyone else.

There is also a difference between a band that happens to contain Christians and a band that sets out to be a 'Christian band.'

Way back in the day, a lot of my Christian friends were into After The Fire. I thought they were ok but I wouldn't have gone out and bought any of their albums. I saw them live once, at a small gig alongside some secular acts and they were fine - but nothing to get terribly excited about.

I tend to agree with Enoch and Chris Stiles, that CCM is drawing on a narrower talent pool and hence is almost invariably going to be on the back foot.

That can't be helped.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Well, I'd suppose that some people actually listen to secular rock music and Christian rock music. Because they like... rock music?

Just like some people listen to both Christian classical music and non-religious classical music.

(And not everyone is as choosy as you when it comes to quality, I suspect. I probably wouldn't meet your standards!)

Or are you saying that some Christians listen to Christian music because it's Christian and eschew secular music because it's secular? If so, the issue is primarily theological, and the precise musical quality of the Christian version is not paramount, I would assume.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think I may have already intimated that I have been more strident and hyperbolic on the issue because this is a magazine of 'Christian unrest' than I would be in 'real life' ...

I don't go round to people's houses and check out their CD collection in order to form a value-judgement about them in terms of matters of taste.

I don't have exacting standards particularly, but I recognise dreck when I hear it and a lot of CCM - and indeed secular pop - does fall into that category.

Of course, not all of it does and even though I repeatedly acknowledge that people keep challenging me as if I'm not.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
I do notice your stridency. Strident language is normally used to stimulate a response, and I'm a boring, ordinary human being who responds. If you didn't want your words to have any effect you wouldn't bother using those words, would you?

But keep on keeping on anyway. I'll understand you eventually!


 

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Posted by greenhouse (# 4027) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't have exacting standards particularly, but I recognise dreck when I hear it and a lot of CCM - and indeed secular pop - does fall into that category.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Or are you saying that some Christians listen to Christian music because it's Christian and eschew secular music because it's secular?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by greenhouse:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't have exacting standards particularly, but I recognise dreck when I hear it and a lot of CCM - and indeed secular pop - does fall into that category.

---

Do you listen to a lot of CCM to make that judgement?

Is it possible that 'dreck' actually means 'music that isn't to my own taste'?

---

FFS greenhouse, of course it is ...

But as you've said yourself, anyone listening to Heart Radio for a few minutes every now and again would get the impression that all contemporary pop music is dreck.

Of course it isn't. I know bugger all about contemporary pop music but I'm sure it's not all dreck, just as not all of it was dreck in the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s or the 2000s ...

I keep telling you and you don't seem to be listening - not all CCM is dreck.

A lot of it is.

I have no idea what you listen to nor why you are getting so defensive about the whole thing.

You might very well be listening to CCM that isn't dreck, in which case, whoopy do - fine ... enjoy it.

All I'm saying is that a lot of CCM strikes me as derivative and sub-standard. That's all. That's hardly the same as doing a dump on someone's front doorstep or telling them their baby is ugly.

Get over it already.

I'm quite prepared to accept Barnabas62's point that recording/presentation standards are a lot higher these days and I don't doubt that there are CCM artists out there doing some good stuff.

Satisfied now?

That doesn't let the dreck stuff off the hook ...



And yes, there can be a lot of elitism and snobbery involved with these kind of judgements - as indeed there can be a hipper-than-thou or even invertedly snobbish attitudes involved too.

My main gripe is with certain subcultures within contemporary Christianity which eschew listening to 'normal' mainstream rock, pop and whatever other genre you might think of - in favour of ersatz Christian versions of the same thing ...

That doesn't happen as much now as it used to, as far as I can see ... so I might be railing against things that have come and gone.

As I've said, I'm an old git.
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I think that ship sailed years ago, Gamaliel. A kind of cultural Amishism. You can still find some folks who think like that about the 'depraving' influences in modern secular culture, but trying to stop the curiosity and fashion consciousness of the young by 'be ye separate' is a mug's game.

Far better to help them develop their critical faculties, including awareness of some of the dangers of peer pressure.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, and yes, to be fair, that kind of mentality was certainly on the wane back in my own spotty and feckless yoof ...

That said, there was certainly a prevailing subculture across many evangelical and charismatic churches whereby people tended to listen almost exclusively to worship music or CCM and only to read Christian books ...

I once kept a log of what I read over a 10 year period and it was noticeable how more varied my reading became as I morphed from GLE-dom to a broader perspective ...

I'm not saying that to flag up any apparent virtue on my part - far from it - simply noting what happens when people 'loosen up a bit' ...
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I get that. For whatever reason, Gamaliel, I seem to have been inoculated against such specious BS. My old fashioned nonconformism seems to act as a shield against most forms of peer pressure.

I'm a bit of an old git too.
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
No, no, Barnabus62. You are not a git.
 

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Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
Gamaliel - I listen to Heart FM. I listen to modern pop music and enjoy it. Most of the other people who do are also primarily young people, women, and gay men. Pop music is routinely considered 'dreck', not serious, not 'proper music' essentially because it is considered feminine. Classical/rock/jazz etc is Serious Music because it's considered male territory. It's no accident that a pop concert was targeted in Manchester - it was an attack on young girls and what they consider worthwhile. I'm going to see Steps at the O2 in November and listen to Hillsong in the car, and I'm not going to apologise for my feminine taste in music because some old blokes think it's silly.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I get that, Pomona but, for whatever reason, the Gamaliettes listened to pop when they were younger but then moved onto punk and indie in the case of my eldest (21) and heavy metal in the case of my youngest (19).

I may have been an influence on my eldest, I don't know ... But she used to raise my CD collection regularly.

My youngest can appreciate what I listen to - everything from Bach to Bowie, Brahms to the B52s - but she's into 'metal', a genre I particularly abhor.

They aren't gay, so perhaps that comes into if, but are you suggesting they are 'blokey' because they listen to rock and such?

Meanwhile, sorry, you'd have to strap me to a chair to listen to Heart.

It would be torture.
 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
I'm going to see Steps at the O2 in November and listen to Hillsong in the car, and I'm not going to apologise for my feminine taste in music because some old blokes think it's silly.

---

I'm somewhat bemused by this fairly gendered classification of music genres.
 

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Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
I'm not suggesting people who favour rock are all men or more blokey, but that it's a genre aimed at and largely bought by men. Ditto pop for women. As a genre it is coded as feminine just like nursing or cross stitch is coded as feminine - it doesn't mean non-women who participate are more feminine, but that society has gendered pop music/nursing/cross stitch etc as feminine.
 

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Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on :
 
There is something in the argument that people see pop as being for girls - witness the recent question to Harry Styles about whether it bothers him that his music is largely bought by young girls, and his rather excellent reply:
"Who's to say that young girls who like popular music - short for popular right? - have worse musical taste than a 30-year-old hipster guy?" he asked.
"That's not up to you to say. Music is something that's always changing. There's no goal posts. Young girls like the Beatles. You gonna tell me they're not serious? How can you say young girls don't get it?
They're our future - our future doctors, lawyers, mothers, presidents, they kind of keep the world going. Teenage-girl fans - they don't lie. If they like you, they're there. They don't act 'too cool'. They like you, and they tell you. Which is sick."
(From the Independent)

However, I haven't heard that the Manchester bomber was out to get young girls as opposed to any group out enjoying themselves (and perhaps where he might be less likely to be stopped?)

As someone who was more of a rock person than a pop person when younger, I think it's more to do with musical snobbery, and we have that among women just as much as among men. The writing about rock may have been done more by men than women - it's no coincidence that I can still name the 3 female writers I used to read in the nme & melody maker 20 years on, because there were only 3 of them! But I never felt that it was aimed at men. It was usually 50/50 up the front, bopping up and down, and I was never once sexually harassed. Child A now goes to rock gigs, and hasn't mentioned being in a minority as a female.

Likewise, I don't perceive Christian music as being gendered - there are soppy Jesus is my Boyfriend type songs, but it hadn't occurred to me that they were somehow girly. Just not my cup of tea. My grump with them largely is about the certainty vs the hymns & songs I like which are more of a prayer asking for God's help "My God is mighty to save" vs "Guide me oh thou great redeemer" - though I appreciate there was a lot of certainty in the older songs too. There doesn't seem to be as much room for doubt in the more modern songs.

(That plus a whole host of practical problems about how hard they are to play for a congregation, which has been done to death in DH and isn't really the point here).
 

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Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on :
 
Apologies, missed the edit window: I meant "any other group of people out enjoying themselves"

And, yes, one should never apologise for one's music taste because someone else doesn't like it. Whatever it is.
 

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Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Jemima wrote:

quote:

---

However, I haven't heard that the Manchester bomber was out to get young girls as opposed to any group out enjoying themselves (and perhaps where he might be less likely to be stopped?)

---

quote:

---

Well, ISIS made a statement about the concert at the 'shameless arena' or a 'shameless concert' or some such in their official comment claiming responsibility.

---

quote:

---

I suspect there may have been an element of that there - the suicide bomber had been in trouble for striking a school/college mate when he objected to what she was wearing ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All I'm saying is that a lot of CCM strikes me as derivative and sub-standard.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
People see pop as being for girls [...]

As someone who was more of a rock person than a pop person when younger, I think it's more to do with musical snobbery, and we have that among women just as much as among men.

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