Thread: 24-7 Prayer Rooms Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
Anyone been to a 24-7 prayer room? (if you don't know what one is, have a look here https://www.24-7prayer.com/prayerrooms ).

We're creating one for a week at our church soon, but I was wondering what are the best things you have seen in a prayer room? Creative ways to pray, or just hilarious things written on the wall - I'd love to get some inspiration for making our room a brilliant place to meet with God.

You can also, if you like, start to argue about whether 24-7 prayer rooms are valuable and appropriate expressions of Christianity or a strange offshoot of the fundamentalist evangelical fringe.

[ 09. May 2017, 20:43: Message edited by: angelfish ]
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
There is an odd feeling amongst some that in almost any situation says "we need more prayer!" as if the volume is somehow changing God or anything else.

Of course, this is a simple response solution to almost any problem because you can always have more prayer and more prayer meetings up to the point where you have a 24/7 prayer meeting.

Personally, I find the idea of a 24/7 prayer room appealing because I like sitting in silence and reflecting. I find that sense of space merges into prayer, meditation, waiting, boredom and nothingness. I like the idea of a space where one can go whenever one wants to.

But what I can't stand is the low evangelical unstructured prayer meeting. The idea of that fills me with angst, I don't need to hear that booming voice or that person banging the drum about his pet hate or that person passing on the latest gossip.

For me, I'd have the 24/7 room but ban anyone from leading it outwith of maybe set liturgical services.

[ 09. May 2017, 20:50: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
If you're an insomniac, or shift worker, go for it. Otherwise, why ruin your sleep and your day?

[ 09. May 2017, 20:57: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
In a former life I led the church in a series of 7 monthly 24-hour prayer meetings in a special call to prayer for new premises (it worked!). We put together a file with various prayer topics and varied the menu depending on the time of day. I have (mostly) fond memories of it, although it was exhausting.

That said, I think the problems begin when people start setting these things up with an Old Testament lens of 24-hour temple worship or some such, and get into esoteric theologies of prayer, "prophecy", and demonology. The site you link to might not be into this, but the International House of Prayer movement, which they link to, certainly is.

As a church leadership I would keep a close lookout for the emergence of a pseudo-super-spiritual fifth column making the most of such a facility to implement a power grab.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
If you are planning a room where people can pray independently (i.e. not as part of a "led" service or group), then do some of them the kindness of leaving a bare wall or similar uncluttered area to look at. If you put inspirational or hilarious things written on a wall and I have to do some serious praying in there, I will see them, lose concentration, and depart cursing your name.
[Two face]
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Call me cynical, but I get the impression that the setting up of 24/7 prayer rotas and so on is more about creating a sense of community and a semblance of momentum and purpose than anything else.

I used to relish evangelical style prayer meetings but looking back a lot of it was about enjoying the sound of my own voice. I come on here for that these days ...

No, seriously, you'd have to drag me to something like that these days. But silence, contemplation, liturgy ... Now you're talking ...
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
So I guess this is a Protestant version of Perpetual Adoration?

I'm kind of "meh." I've got no problem at all with small chapels and prayer rooms—I've used them (well, chapels mainly) often—but I really don't get the 24/7 thing. If the goal is to have people praying every hour, why do they need to go to a prayer room to do it, especially in the middle of the night?

But if it's to be a room, I would echo LC. Simple is better, clean and simple. Art is good, but clutter and distraction (which is what I would find lots of writing on the wall to be) isn't, at least for me.

[ 09. May 2017, 22:17: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
 
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
I see a role for a 24/7 availability. As pointed out above, shift workers, for instance might take advantage of this. You never know when someone needs a refuge for prayer. But, please, no posters with an inspirational glop fronting a photo of the sun breaking through clouds.

A bit different. The uncle of a friend of mine was dying in Manhattan, and my friend went down from Toronto. The uncle died a bit sooner than expected, catching the family without a minyan. Another uncle knew of a yeshiva in Brooklyn that was open 24/7 for just such emergencies, so the men piled into a cab at 3am, and went to Brooklyn, went to the Yeshiva's library, and collected a minyan for kaddish.
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
...—but I really don't get the 24/7 thing. If the goal is to have people praying every hour, why do they need to go to a prayer room to do it, especially in the middle of the night?...
I think it's to do with community, as Gamaliel said above (although I didn't get the impression he thought that was a valid thing). Instead of all meeting together to pray in an excruciatingly dull, embarrassing huddle of plastic chairs, (and at a time that might not suit everyone), people can go alone, or with friends, to spend a chunk of time silently contemplating, shouting, dancing, lying down, sitting on a bean bag or whatever else they find helpful. Basically, setting aside some time and space to listen for that still, small voice. And if all go to one place to do it, even if individually, this unifies the church in the act of concerted prayer for a particular event or concern of that church. It also means that you only have to get one place set aside for prayer, rather than everyone having to create their own little shrine.

As for praying in the middle of the night, to be honest I think a lot of it is to do with the challenge - people like a challenge and might be more likely to commit to prayer if it seems a bit edgy. And of course there's the novelty factor - to get people interested in something that they might have become rather inured to after years of dull, lifeless prayers muttered into the space between their knees and the vinyl flooring of the church hall. And it shows a measure of determination to get hold of God and not to let Him go until He blesses us.

And yes, my cheesy, it will be a "non-led" form of prayer room - it will be up to the people who go there what happens during their "slot".

I seem to have started a silly number of sentences with connectives in this post.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
We're creating one for a week at our church soon, but I was wondering what are the best things you have seen in a prayer room?
An altar. A crucifix. An icon, perhaps.

Somewhere to kneel (pew, prie-dieu,...)

Silence. (You can't see silence, but...)

Fairly low lighting.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
Fair points, angelfish.

And to be clear, I wasn't questioning praying in the middle of the night. I get the purpose and value of that. I was questioning the need to get out and go to a prayer room in the middle of the night instead of doing ones shift where one is at the time.
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
I think if I was allocated a shift in the middle of the night, and did it at home, the temptation not to do it at all on the grounds that no-one would know would be overpowering ...
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Building a sense of community and common purpose is fine, it's the way it's done that bothers me ...

A church here displayed a 24/7 rota on a wall in the church hall and asked people to sign up for an hour or so. It struck me that having someone's name down for a 2am or 3am shift was somewhat contrary to the teachings and example of Someone who earned against practising our piety in public 'to be seen by men ...'

'Look at me, I've signed my name alongside the the 3am stint ...'

Also, there's this subtext that if only every single second of the day is covered by someone praying then it'sore likely to twist God's arm to answer our prayers ...

Then there's also the faddy thing about it ...yet another flash-the-pan evangelical trend that will be forgotten about when the next trite and flash-the-pan evangelical trend comes along ...

Anyone remember 'Prayer sticks?

No, sorry, I'm long in the tooth and have been round the block too many times to get excited by 24/7 prayer rotas or yo-yo prayers or standing on one leg prayers or stunts like 'Treasure Hunting' or 'Prayer walking' or whatever else the charismatic evangelical constituency get up to these days.

It's a great big yawn. Once you've seen this sort of thing a few times the novelty fades. If people want to sign up for some 24/7 prayer thing, that's up to them. Just don't expect me to put my name down.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
That should have been 'warned against ...'
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
The effort I organised was getting on for 20 years ago in the days when I was much more of a charismatic than I am now and we badly needed new premises.

I had recently returned from a conference at which the virtues of 24-hour prayer were extolled, and had been re-reading the story of Naaman having to dip himself 7 times in the Jordan. The result was a conviction we should do 24 hours of prayer and fasting once a month for 7 months, which I announced to the church as its senior pastor. All I can say is we did, and found premises within a week following the last session where none were to be found before.

It's easy looking back to see this as a bit of religious mania, spiritual fashion slavery, and a lucky break, but despite the various imperfections I still like to think there was an element of genuine faith in it.

I think thing start going wrong when there is an attempt to systematise, brand - and God forbid, montetise - something that was originally born of genuine faith. That's why Moses failed to make it into the promised land.

We're in need of new premises again now, but I don't feel inclined to repeat the procedure.
 
Posted by MaryLouise (# 18697) on :
 
When I've done stints during vigils, the quiet of the room or chapel has been important, not too many distractions. A single lit candle is helpful to focus on. When we were doing pre-dawn shifts, the priest or elder present suggested we all go outside just before starting (or halfway through if we were doing two hours) and do some stretching exercises, breathe in gulps of the night air to help us stay awake. At the end of the hours we had a closing prayer said aloud.

For those coming in from the workplace at 5-6pm, music was played softly for about 10 minutes to help people settle and transition from the busy day's preoccupations into the evening and a focus on prayer.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
We just had a 48 hour prayer vigil. What our participants appreciated was having some stations set up with instructions for simple self-led prayer- lectio, journaling, kneading clay, etc

On a more practical note think about lighting and safe parking especially for women coming to the church in the middle of the night.. We also had a parallel sign up for congregants to pray at home rather than coming to the church
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
An altar. A crucifix. An icon, perhaps.

Somewhere to kneel (pew, prie-dieu,...)

Silence. (You can't see silence, but...)

Fairly low lighting.
Even more important IMHO is heating, especially in winter. It may be worthy to subdue the flesh, but people can't concentrate if they are cold.
 
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :
 
Silly me! When I saw the subject I immediately pictured something like the chapel/quiet room at an airport or hospital, where people of any faith could go to pray or meditate at any time in silence.
Listening to other people's wordy prayers I get the impression they're talking to a very different God to the one I listen to.
Would anyone like to try that sort of prayer room? Permanently available. Perhaps with minimal, occasionally changed decor: a draped length of coloured cloth, a bowl of water, yes, a candle. (Though I remember an airport quiet room where it was stated that health and safety didn't allow unattended candles but one could place a pebble in the bowl of water to signify one's prayer.)
GG
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think if I was allocated a shift in the middle of the night, and did it at home, the temptation not to do it at all on the grounds that no-one would know would be overpowering ...
Yeah but GOD would and He won't be able to reward your prayer of faith with whatever ineffable thing He was going to do!

These things are all about doing something because nothing is working ... because we won't, can't do anything that would 'work'. Nothing can. We need to collectively acknowledge the futility of having expectations of magic beyond ourselves. We are the magic. The Church.

I loved Gamaliel's point, was it, about 2 a.m. prayer slots on the wall for all to see being street corners.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
As I recall, the only people who knew who was at our 2am prayer slots were those who showed up.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
I think it is possible to slip into judgmentalism here. On the occasions where I participated in prayer at 2am, it was because I'd been there all night*.

A name on a note on a wall might be an advertisement about how spiritual an individual is, or it might just an indication that someone is working nights, has a small child, is hoping their friends might come along and so on.

It really isn't necessary to read into absolutely everything the worst possible motives for things.

* I was young and with my friends - and it was better than getting drunk or doing drugs. Nobody got hurt.
 
Posted by DonLogan2 (# 15608) on :
 
Shaped post-its (Hearts are good for adoration or torn in two for sorrow) luggage tags, pebbles and water, white board, etch-a-sketch or tray of sand for confession as they can be wiped clean...
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think it is possible to slip into judgmentalism here...

A name on a note on a wall might be an advertisement about how spiritual an individual is, or it might just an indication that someone is working nights, has a small child, is hoping their friends might come along and so on.

It really isn't necessary to read into absolutely everything the worst possible motives for things.

No, but it's fun though ...

[Devil]

Incidentally, I'm not impugned wrong motives to anyone, I'm sure the folk who pinned up the notice with the rota were being perfectly sincere and I'm sure it was done in good faith ...

But it does lend itself to self-advertisement. Look at me, I'm putting my name on the graveyard slot ...

I prefer Eutychus's anonymised model.

I hasten to add that whilst I can most certainly be cynical and snarky, I am not impugning the motives of any Shipmates here nor decrying the sincere efforts of those who organised a 24/7 prayer thing at my local parish church - which is where the rota on the wall thing occurred.

Just because it isn't 'my bag' any more it doesn't mean I'm 'against' anyone else doing such a thing.

I must admit though, it did feel intimidating having a written rota up on the wall ... as though not to sign your name on a slot meant that you weren't fully 'committed' to the programme / vision and so on ...

Well, I'm not. So it probably sends a message when I don't sign up for such things or turn up for the regular Sunday evening prayer slots that the vicar has set up by apparently popular request.

I don't have an issue for people rolling up to pray together on a Sunday evening but I don't feel any compunction about not joining them. It's not that I disagree with prayer meetings and so on but I've spent years and years of my life listening to 'Lord we really just ...' type prayers.

I wonder how the Almighty copes with it. I'm glad I don't have to listen to all that ... It just shows how infinitely patient, loving and faithful he is - unlike me.

I'd have zapped them all with a thunder-bolt before now ... "For the millionth time ... if I hear another, 'Lord, we really just ...' I'm going to resign ..."

[Help]
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
At our church it was all on the sign up table. The 'righteous' stood out. I'd expect the leadership to lead from those slots. It's all good as an exercise in church building, but it actually builds the inner circle, the 'committed'. It's all part of living lives of quiet desperation.

It used to angrily amuse me when weekend 'leadership' sessions would start on a Friday night and there'd be even less volunteers for the Friday night homeless outreach.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
I'm sure you are both right a lot of the time. I'm not saying that there isn't a level of spiritual oneupmanship.

I'm just saying we shouldn't assume that's what is happening all the time. I don't participate in these things because I don't feel the need to - that's not to say that I never would or that those who do are doing anything wrong.
 
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :
 
So what is prayer?
All I can say is my kind of prayer might not be your idea of prayer.


GG
 
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
24/7 was big when I was a student. We did it a number of times and I remember it as mostly a worthwhile thing.

I think one reason it worked was that we opened it to all comers, so that you have might have the CathSoc saying the rosary for an hour, followed by the most out there charismatics praying in tongues and behaving oddly (this was the early noughties Toronto era). No one judged each other and we left each other in peace to pray in different ways. It made a very unifying event as I remember.

Our prayer room was the chapel library. We kept it pretty simple – chairs, and cushions for those who preferred to sit on the floor. A few art materials. Bibles. A CD player and a few CDs. An absolute must is a kettle for those who are there at ungodly hours.

It should be said that among a group of skanky students, taking the 3 am slot wasn’t regarded as all that heroic. Being out of bed at your prayers at 7 o’clock in the morning OTOH, was a sign of huge prayer warrior virtue [Biased]
 
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
Despite Gamaliel's apparent ongoing desire to piss on all the chips from his past, and despite acknowledging he has some valid points/issues ("up to a point"), generally I'd say go for it.

My experience of 24/7 prayer events is generally of those linked to the Pete Greig figureheaded 24/7 movement, which I think is the site linked in the OP. Some of them have been directly affiliated, some have simply utilised some of the resources and ideas that 24/7 make available.

All have followed the pattern of:
The intention has been to create a shared space where one can essentially "withdraw" but where one is also encouraged and enabled to pray in a way that most of us just won't do if left to our own devices. I might say I'll pray for an hour at home, but chances are I won't. There's also a factor of because it's a shared space, you are aware that you are part of a bigger whole in a more concrete fashion, even if you're there on your own (and generally I have been, when I've done them, as even in quite a large church, or an ecumenical event, people tended to pick times that were vacant, not all congregate together in a huddle).

Some practical considerations, at least in the UK in this day and age, are that you do need to think about safety provisions (general health & safety e.g. if you're having candles not having them near the voile drapes, and also the children & vulnerable adults side of things). I've seen this handled in various ways - sometimes by virtue of where the room is; sometimes by having appropriate people on hand to cover the whole thing in shifts; sometimes by e.g. getting the youth group to cover the overnight thing because that's exciting for them, and a couple of youth leaders suffer the consequences etc.

Like so much, what you get out will depend on what you put in, and how you approach it. There can be a lot of bullshit about it, and possibly a lot of hype, and maybe false expection. But there can be a lot of value too, and there is something intangible about praying in a place where many others have been praying too, even if it's only a temporary thing, and not a cathedral that's been there for 100s of years.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Pete Greig! Hadn't heard of him till yesterday. Just commented on his blog on the excellent Dr. Fry - whom we're discussing on the blasphemy thread - this morning. Then he's mentioned here.

do-do-DO!-DO!-do-do-DO!-DO!
 
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
Like all of us, he's a mixed bag [Smile]
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Aye. Deeply conservative, i.e. trapped in the text and disingenuous with it. Perfect me.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Hey Snags, I can piss where the hell I like as long as it doesn't splash up people's legs ...

But no, I'm with mr cheesy. If tpeopke want to do 24/7 prayer then that's fine. As long as they don't expect me to join in.
 
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
<possibly unwarranted assumption for the effect comic response>
I suspect Mrs Gamaliel may have something to say about that [Smile]
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hey Snags, I can piss where the hell I like as long as it doesn't splash up people's legs ...

Well you can, it's just a bit tiring that your default answer to everything is (a) it's Orthodox and therefore Interesting or (b) it's a bit both/and rather than either/or, isn't it? or (c) it's Evangelical and/or Charismatic and therefore suspect.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
The MOTR church I go to had one of these not too long ago. I found it quite moving. But MOTR churches suffer, IMO, from a general shortage of heartfelt prayer (although there are of course the liturgical prayers), so I think extra dedicated prayer time is a good thing.

Prayer like anything can become 'good works' to be shown off the world. But in MOTR churches prayer isn't usually the means for such boasting. I suppose this is more likely in evangelical churches, where there's more public emphasis on having a 'personal relationship' with God.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Heh heh ...

Well, ok mr cheesy. Guilty as charged but that's how I roll ...

I'll make comments in shorthand in future - 'It's a', 'It's b', 'It's c', 'It's a, b and c at one and the same time ...'

At least people know which way my piss is splashing and can avoid the spray ...

I'll get me coat ...
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Even more important IMHO is heating, especially in winter. It may be worthy to subdue the flesh, but people can't concentrate if they are cold.
I'd almost go in the opposite direction, especially in the middle of the night. If it's a bit cold, keep your coat on. If it's too warm, it'll be hard to prevent yourself from falling asleep.
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
Thanks everyone. Some useful and encouraging words here. It's interesting that everyone focuses on the "middle of the night" thing (my church included) and possible problems arising there, such as danger, cold, tiredness - whereas to my mind the greatest difficultly will be filling the slots around commuting time - too early and late in the day for the retired lot, but totally inconvenient for the workers and parents.

Now all I have to do is preach a blinder next Sunday, that inspires everyone to get involved. Not feeling up to the task, which might well be the best position to be in I suppose. [Votive]
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:

Now all I have to do is preach a blinder next Sunday, that inspires everyone to get involved. Not feeling up to the task, which might well be the best position to be in I suppose. [Votive]
Or maybe you should be reminding people to go to their little room/greenhouse/shed alone, close the door and pray to God in secret as per Matthew 6:6

Given what I've said above, I obviously don't believe that the 24/7 prayer idea is completely nuts - but the one thing I'd not be doing is trying to inspire "everyone to get involved" and I'd absolutely resist any sense of assessing the "value" of the event in terms of how many people turned up at 3am, 5pm or any other time.
 
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The result was a conviction we should do 24 hours of prayer and fasting once a month for 7 months, which I announced to the church as its senior pastor. All I can say is we did, and found premises within a week following the last session where none were to be found before.
I think it's fine when there is a certain innocence to such things and when effectively what you do (as in the example you give above) is an expression of a faith felt.

The problem is when this kind of thing is arrived at more deliberately, or is an alien imposition from a context where it worked culturally (Koreans going up the mountains to pray being the canonical example).

I know someone who worked among Hindu converts for a while, and he'd would often extol how these converts always sought prayer when they moved into a new house, or found a new job and so on. Of course, he became less enchanted with the whole thing when he realised that he was also being called to bless new cars - effectively they'd taken the model of prayer in Hinduism and applied it within a Protestant context.

In the IHOP case - of course - they've gone with some fairly lose extrapolations from the OT and run with it (where what is prescribed may not have even happened).
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
By this shall all men know us, that we went to pray silently, alone, in church at 03:00 so that others might join us.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


'Look at me, I've signed my name alongside the the 3am stint ...'

It's incredibly easy to write one's name in such a messy fashion that the only thing anyone can make out is that the slot is actually taken.

I've done this in other contexts.
[Devil]
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
...but the one thing I'd not be doing is trying to inspire "everyone to get involved" and I'd absolutely resist any sense of assessing the "value" of the event in terms of how many people turned up at 3am, 5pm or any other time.
It's meant to be a corporate act, so we absolutely do want everyone involved. We're praying for the future of our church - everyone should take responsibility for that, including praying about it. And, should any assessment take place afterwards, I would be "assessing" its value on the basis of a deeper awareness of the presence of God in the lives of the people who take part. Is that ok with you or do you want to make any more assumptions about my motivation?
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
Is that ok with you or do you want to make any more assumptions about my motivation?
Your thread and your words. If you didn't want them discussed you shouldn't have written them.

What you do or don't do is clearly up to you.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Come on, Angelfish, it isn't only Bishop Brennan who deserves a kick up the arse.

If I were in your congregation and tried to inspire me with a 'blinder of a sermon' to join your 24/7 prayer thing I might be tempted to kick you in the balls as well as up the arse ...

Prophetically, of course ...
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
Why? Are you imagining a great big, hectoring bully leaning down from the pulpit shouting at all the old ladies to get up at 2am and come to pray?

I'd just like to inspire people to connect more meaningfully with God. That is all. If our prayer room is only used for half the week, my church will still have prayed more in that week than in any other in living memory. It really isn't a gimmick, or a vanity project or whatever else you might be imagining.

There's always been 24-7 prayer throughout church history, often with incredible changes in the lives of believers as a result. If you were in my church and objected to that, I'd be seriously concerned for you. However, I'd have no concern for my balls, as I've never been able to find them - so the chances of your foot making contact with them are slim.
 
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
I've been away this week so come late to this party.

I find this conversation fascinating as I prayed once a week for 3 months in the very first 24-7 prayer room founded by Pete Grieg and friends.
I haven't seen him for years but I know many people who know him well and who love him dearly. He is a theology graduate who would willingly meet any one of us who wanted to explore different approaches to both doctrine and praxis so I am wary of making judgements based on limited or old knowledge.

As regards the prayer room itself I think there are valid concerns about not self-promoting but equally there would be valid concerns about someone needing to hold a list about who is in the room at any given time for health and safety reasons. Security was a very real concern in that very first prayer room as many of the middle of the night slots were taken by young people.
The room itself was decorated by art students. There was a CD player for people to use and all sorts of art materials for people to use too. People could also post prayer requests/ intentions on a board (just as they do today in our Cathedral here).

I too cannot abide prayer meetings but that prayer room was available for solo or group prayer as people wished.
I know that many people found their prayer lives deepened by the experience, others not so much and still others never darkened the door!

So like so many things in church life it is a mixed bag.

[ 12. May 2017, 20:16: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
There have certainly been prayer vigils and round the clock prayer in monasteries and so on, but the only well-documented instance I've heard of in Protestant circles has been the almost continuous prayer sessions the Moravians held ...

Sure, a lot of revivalists went in for lengthy prayer sessions - but I'm too long in the tooth and been round the block too many times to get all excited about 'incredible effects / differences in the lives of believers' rhetoric.

I don't see a great deal of evidence of that - not that I'm against prayer or against prayer meetings as such ...

I'm sorry I rained on your parade angelfish but you were rather inviting an Eeyore response with all that malarkey about delivering a blinder of a sermon and so forth.

As I've often said here aboard Ship, 'It doesn't matter how wonderful the meeting / service is, you've still got to get up the next morning and go to work ... It doesn't matter how wonderful a time you had at the prayer meeting or worship rally, when you go to the toilet you've still got to wipe your arse ...'

It's nice that you'd be concerned about me if I were in your congregation. If I was there then I'm sure I'd be touched by your pastoral concern and I'd be far too polite to aim a toe at your arse ...

But don't expect a 'SWEG' either - 'Sickly Wet Evangelical Grin' - and don't expect bouncy spiritual enthusiasm either. Been there, done that. Expect support, expect practical help but also expect questions, expect challenges, expect reality.

No,I'm not a bolshy bugger. But I don't do fads and I don't over-egg the pudding.

I'm not going to roll up at any 24/7 prayer rota anytime soon. Give me a prayer book and a lectionary, the occasional Lenten study group or even a Labyrinth now and again ... But spare me the rah-rah-rah please.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
G. How much less than a great deal of evidence would you say?
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm not sure I go looking for 'cause and effect' evidence in that sense, Martin60.

I'm not suggesting that prayer was ineffective, useless or a waste of time - nor that those who have gone in for extended, round-the-clock prayer sessions in whatever tradition we're talking about have been wasting their time ...

Call me old-fashioned, but I'm still of the C S Lewis view that when I stop praying the 'coincidences' seem to stop happening ... but at the same time there's a degree of 'confirmation bias' going on in all these things.

As far as 24/7 prayer meetings as a way of building a sense of community and purpose within individual congregations, I can see how that works ... but I'm still wary ...

I'm reminded of something a hoary old Yorkshire textile baron said to a chap I knew who ran an advertising agency up there.

'Nay lad, all this talk of advertising and PR, it seems to mi that it's lahrk pissin' thissen in a thick worsted suit ... Tha gets a nice warm feeling but no other booger knows tha's done it ...'
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Well, the atheists would say the whole thing was a matter of confirmation bias. Maybe we´re all just kidding ourselves....

I can understand if you feel you´ve already done your share of enough public praying in your life. Some people feel the same way about going to church in general. But I would be wary of assuming that other people have already reached your own spiritual heights and should therefore be advised not to pray too much, or that God is uninterested in their communal prayers. For many of us that advice really wouldn´t be very helpful.

I know it´s hard for you to believe, but many of us still have some way to go before we overdose on prayer! Even many so-called evangelicals, I imagine!
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I haven't overdosed on prayer.

I haven't even begun to pray.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Gamaliel, I think the coincidences quote is from William Temple - I seem to recall it is often used on the service sheet at Kings College London carol service.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok, thanks for the correction, Penny S.

Meanwhile, for the record ...

No, I don't think I'm any more spiritual than those who go in for religious enthusiasm or 24/7 prayer meetings and do on ...

It's simply that I don't particularly share the enthusiasm for such things nor an I convinced that they do everything the organisers claim ...

But we reap what we sow and if you're keen to develop a church of keenies where people engage in 24/7 prayer rotas, then that's what you'll get ...

There are a lot worse things you could do.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure I go looking for 'cause and effect' evidence in that sense, Martin60.

I love your use of understatement G.

I'm not suggesting that prayer was ineffective, useless or a waste of time - nor that those who have gone in for extended, round-the-clock prayer sessions in whatever tradition we're talking about have been wasting their time ...

Me neither. By no means. I'm sure the prayer was all most psychologically affective for the prayor and those needing the encouragement of them filling a slot.

Call me old-fashioned, but I'm still of the C S Lewis view that when I stop praying the 'coincidences' seem to stop happening ... but at the same time there's a degree of 'confirmation bias' going on in all these things.

You're old fashioned. I get answers to prayer all the time too. My thinking and feeling changes in the light of it. What very little I can muster. Less than minimal gratitude and even less than minimal calls for help, for God to join me in my pits of despond, of intrusion, of failure, of hard heartedness, of fear, of self loathing - of horror. It - He, ineffably, by the Spirit - ALWAYS helps when I do.

As far as 24/7 prayer meetings as a way of building a sense of community and purpose within individual congregations, I can see how that works ...

Aye. Content to do it on that basis without ever saying that's all, despite the pity of not being able to.

but I'm still wary ...

I'm reminded of something a hoary old Yorkshire textile baron said to a chap I knew who ran an advertising agency up there.

'Nay lad, all this talk of advertising and PR, it seems to mi that it's lahrk pissin' thissen in a thick worsted suit ... Tha gets a nice warm feeling but no other booger knows tha's done it ...'

Aye.


 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... but I'm too long in the tooth and been round the block too many times to get all excited

I'm sorry I rained on your parade angelfish.....
Hey, thanks for the apology. Can I suggest you need to beware of mistaking cynicism for wisdom? and I need to beware of making the opposite error.

You will never set foot in a 24-7 prayer room. Naaman would never set foot in the River Jordan. Peter would never eat "unclean" food. And yet...
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Show me the fruits.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... but I'm too long in the tooth and been round the block too many times to get all excited

I'm sorry I rained on your parade angelfish.....
Hey, thanks for the apology. Can I suggest you need to beware of mistaking cynicism for wisdom? and I need to beware of making the opposite error.

You will never set foot in a 24-7 prayer room. Naaman would never set foot in the River Jordan. Peter would never eat "unclean" food. And yet...
Well yes, I get all that, angelfish, and I think there are equal and opposite errors that can be made here ... cynicism on the one hand and a kind of starry-eyed naivety on the other ...

Not that I'm accusing you of the latter ...

However - and I would say this, wouldn't I? - I was somewhat taken aback by your assertion that were I in your congregation you'd be 'concerned about me' if I expressed misgivings about the 24/7 prayer sessions ...

As that were somehow indicative of a spiritual malaise ...

As if participation in 24/7 prayer sessions were somehow a measure of spiritual fervour or vibrancy ...

[Paranoid]

I could understand your reaction if I were flatly refusing to attend church services/meetings of any kind ...

But entertaining some mild misgivings about the 24/7 prayer rota stuff doesn't strike me as great cause for spiritual concern ... but then, our respective mileages may vary.

I'm not saying I'd never, ever, ever in a million years set foot in an evangelical prayer meeting ever, ever again or not participate in some kind of prayer rota.

But to be honest, I find a more low-key approach - daily office, observation to some extent of the seasons, feasts, fasts and festivals of the liturgical calendar -- far more 'satisfying' - if I can put it that way - than rolling up to support what might be someone else's agenda and 'vision' ...

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't engage in such things, though.

But dare I suggest - as you seem to have done yourself - that you steer away from super-spirituality and an over-readiness to identify what you do day by day with some of the more spectacular things we read about in the Bible - Naaman's healing, Peter's vision of clean and unclean food and so on ...

It reminds me of those worship-leaders who fall back on the example of David 'submitting to be more vile' and dancing before the Lord in his undies ... in order to encourage people to bop about in worship meetings ...

Exhortation is one thing. Encouragement is one thing. Ratcheting things up to the level of manipulation is something else ...

But I daresay you know that already ...

You can keep your 24/7 prayer meetings and your 'vision' and what-have-you, provided I'm also allowed to keep my distance from anything like that.

I still have the bruises and the scars.
 
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
Just one observation especially for Gamaliel.
[Biased]
In my experience most 24-7 prayer rooms are affiliated to evangelical churches. But they don't have to be used solely for evangelical style prayer meetings.
When I joined the rota for the very first prayer room (it was largely through my daughters who were friends with the founders)I prayed in there on my own and in a contemplative style.
I once took a Roman Catholic friend in with me and she loved it. I also know a couple of high church priests who have held prayer vigils with members of the congregation signing up to take prayer slots over a day/ days.

IMO it can and does build a sense of community, it can and does deepen one's personal prayer life. It can also involve all the things you and I might find difficult!
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, I don't have an issue with any of that, Mrs Beaky.

Alongside the both/and not either/or angle I tend to take on these boards,I can sometimes engage in hyperbole - and I've deliberately overstated my case for rhetorical reasons on this thread.

These days, if I'm honest, I'd be more comfortable with a more contemplative or 'catholic' approach to these things rather than a 'Lord, we really just ...' evangelical one ...

That doesn't mean I'm 'against' evangelical prayer meetings, simply that I've participated in plenty of them in my time and prefer a different approach now.

I don't have an issue with angelfish or anyone else doing that stuff. There's a lot worse things they could do ...
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
I do have an issue in that it inverts the Rule of Benedict.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Would Benedict object? Strikes me he was quite pragmatic. He allowed monks to nip out to go to the loo during lengthy vigils ...
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
It makes work out of prayer.

That has an opportunity cost.

But usually of nothing as we don't know what to do with our helpless privilege.
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, I don't have an issue with any of that, Mrs Beaky.

Alongside the both/and not either/or angle I tend to take on these boards,I can sometimes engage in hyperbole - and I've deliberately overstated my case for rhetorical reasons on this thread.

These days, if I'm honest, I'd be more comfortable with a more contemplative or 'catholic' approach to these things rather than a 'Lord, we really just ...' evangelical one ...

That doesn't mean I'm 'against' evangelical prayer meetings, simply that I've participated in plenty of them in my time and prefer a different approach now.

I don't have an issue with angelfish or anyone else doing that stuff. There's a lot worse things they could do ...
Careful Gamaliel, if you keep back-pedalling like this, your chain might fall off ("my heart was free, I rose went forth and followed thee!")

I don't think I've ever extolled the virtues of evangelical-style prayer meetings. I find them toe-curling at worst and boring at best. The 24-7 model is much more contemplative, and allows for individual preference/expression, whilst maintaining a corporate approach which builds community and unites the congregation (until one or two of them start grumbling and stirring up malaise against the new-fangled (even though it's old-fangled) 24-7 prayer room idea). I'm pretty sure my own church will largely be up for the challenge - that's the beauty of churches: the leaders of them get to know their congregations and can put forward ideas that are likely to be embraced and found to be helpful. Nobody will be led by the nose or coerced by Old Testament means to do anything (although I've just finished writing my "blinder of a sermon" and it is based on an OT passage. Hopefully nobody will go blind during it).

My hypothetical pastoral concern for your hypothetical stance in my congregation wasn't for your not wanting to sign up for an hour on my sign-up sheet, but rather for the implication that you did not see the value of corporate acts of prayer (which I think you were overstating to make a point).

I now realise you were using hyperbole. But you also seemed to be making a fair few assumptions about me, or that might just have been me being a sensitive flower, which is what I am, but I am afraid I can do nothing about that.
 
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
quote:
Posted by angelfish:
I don't think I've ever extolled the virtues of evangelical-style prayer meetings. I find them toe-curling at worst and boring at best. The 24-7 model is much more contemplative, and allows for individual preference/expression, whilst maintaining a corporate approach which builds community and unites the congregation (until one or two of them start grumbling and stirring up malaise against the new-fangled (even though it's old-fangled) 24-7 prayer room idea).
This is what I was trying to say.
Interestingly, the prayer rooms I know most about eventually settled into a faithful smaller group who committed themselves to going there regularly after the initial flurry of enthusiasm had died down a bit. But that would probably be the same with any initiative- it's part of human nature
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, and although that's part of the inevitability of the whole thing, it is also one of my concerns - because with the best will in the world it could create an inner-sanctum of 'keenies' and instead of building a sense of community it could have the opposite effect and create cliques and divisions within a congregation.

I'd far rather have some set services and let people pray however they see fit at other times.

But that's just me ...

I'm not sure I buy into the cumulative effect idea of prayer either - although I can see some biblical basis for such an idea ...

'Let's see, our church has put in X person hours of concentrated prayer this month ...'

Back at the time of the invasion of Iraq some one I knew sent out a missive saying that some evangelist had said that God had told him that if he could get 100,000 women praying then war would be averted.

I found myself wondering what would happen if God could only muster 999,999 women to pray? Would war be inevitable?

Of course, that's an extreme and bonkers example but I'm afraid I find something of that kind of mindset within some of these well-meaning but somewhat misguided initiatives.

I'm not saying that's the case at your church, angelfish, but pastorally it's something you may have to be prepared for ... Not just Eeyores like me but those whose enthusiasm runs away with them or who like to draw attention to themselves.

But you probably know that already ...

Good luck with it ... But watch out for the pitfalls.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
One possibility is for a church to have various stations with different things going on. So you won't have a holy huddle of folks all doing the same thing, but different groups engaging in different spiritual activities at the same time, according to their

As for cliques, I think all churches have those. In MOTR ones it's not the 'holy' bunch versus the others, but people who work hard for the church versus the others. But in any case, church leaders in MOTR congregations are hardly going to complain if a new initiative creates a new group of particularly committed members, because the most committed are those who do the most to keep the church going and to pursue (and to fund) its ministries. In many cases the alternative isn't significantly greater church harmony, but a weaker congregational engagement and church ministry.

However, I accept that evangelical churches face other concerns. And they usually have bigger congregations, so I suppose that simply trying to get people involved is less of an issue.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... I'm not sure I buy into the cumulative effect idea of prayer either - although I can see some biblical basis for such an idea ...

'Let's see, our church has put in X person hours of concentrated prayer this month ...'

Back at the time of the invasion of Iraq some one I knew sent out a missive saying that some evangelist had said that God had told him that if he could get 100,000 women praying then war would be averted.

I found myself wondering what would happen if God could only muster 999,999 women to pray? Would war be inevitable?

Of course, that's an extreme and bonkers example but I'm afraid I find something of that kind of mindset within some of these well-meaning but somewhat misguided initiatives.
I presume you meant a million G.?

Extreme and Bonnke's: I paid good money over 10 years ago to hear Reinhard's right hand ex-military man tell a roomful of women and me and another bloke that 7/7 was all his fault as they didn't have enough prayer warrior cover at the time. It would seem that the 14:00-15:00 slot was vacant on March 22nd too.

That kind of thinking might be extreme and bonkers but it's extremely common in evangelical Anglicanism and beyond.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
There's also the "fervency factor" - i.e. folk believing that, the louder you shout at God, the more you shake your fist and repeat the word "Lord", the more he is obliged to deliver the goods.

We can't bully God!
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
It would be interesting to know what kind of church angelfish belongs to. The advice could then be tailored to his situation.

I.e., if there are any leanings towards prideful fervency then 24/7 prayer should be avoided at all costs. If it's just five old ladies who want to be helpful and perhaps stir themselves out of their despondency then a bit more group prayer might not be so disastrous for their souls or drive them to a fractious schism!
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, I'd be interested to know what kind of church angelfish belongs to - or leads?

I'm assuming angelfish is a she as I was informed that I'd have difficulty kicking him/her in the bollocks during my earlier more belligerent stage on this thread ...

Angelfish is right that I had made some assumptions - not simply that there was a pair of testicles to take a kick at - but that she/he represented some kind of fervent evangelical tradition. I was given that impression by terms like 'blinder of a sermon' and such like - which tend to draw a red mist down over my eyes ...

But I appreciate that angelfish may have been teasing/ironic to a certain extent ...

Equally, the tone of the proposed 24/7 prayer stuff sounds rather different to what I had mistakenly assumed ... ie a more reflective and contemplative approach than an eyes-screwed-shut 'Lord we really just ...' fest.

Whatever the case, I think SvitlanaV2 makes a good case for the use of 'stations' and variety and that cliques and factions exist in churches of all stripes - MoTR as well as fervent and fiery ...
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
I belong to a church made up of people who love Jesus. We try to be more like Jesus. Then we sometimes remember to let God make us more like Jesus. We try to help each other to be more like Jesus.

It's about as close to what a church should be as I've ever found and about as far from what a church should be as I can imagine.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Why is it far from what a church should be if its members are so focused on trying to be like Jesus? I do understand that you want to avoid labels, but obscurity doesn't necessarily help with communication either!

(Note that I'm not demanding any information that you'd rather keep private, just commenting on the oddness of your post.)

[ 19. May 2017, 19:17: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
... because despite our efforts, none of us is very much like Him!

We don't have a label for our church. It's Bible-centred but unaffiliated to any other church/authority structure. A bit of an ecclesiastical loose canon, you might think.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Been there, done that, angelfish, so you'll excuse my cynicism ... Or realism ...
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
angelfish

So have you ever come across a church that looks the way you think a church should look??

My concern with the Gamaliel's counsel of caution above is more or less the following. I agree that most churches of most kinds are unable to address their deepest issues seriously and also deal with their various failings. They may therefore be wise to drop their expectations of prayer. However, the fact remains, ISTM, that the churches that do eventually grow and also flourish spiritually and in their mission are not usually those with low expectations. Quite the opposite.

What this means, I should think, is that you have to be highly aware of what your church is capable of. Where are you coming from? Is there a vision that everyone shares? Do you even have the people with the right sort of discernment to address these matters? What are your practical advantages as a church, etc.?

In your case, I'm curious to know what you'd actually like to achieve with your 24/7 prayer sessions. What's the vision you all have in mind? And what else are you doing to reach those goals?

Just curious!
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's simply that I don't particularly share the enthusiasm for such things ...
There are 76 posts on this thread -- 77 counting this one -- and 17 of them are yours. That's about 22%. Instead of pissing on something you're not enthusiastic about, how about you just move on?

quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
It's interesting that everyone focuses on the "middle of the night" thing (my church included) and possible problems arising there, such as danger, cold, tiredness - whereas to my mind the greatest difficultly will be filling the slots around commuting time - too early and late in the day for the retired lot, but totally inconvenient for the workers and parents.
Where I live lots of people have work schedules that don't make them commute during the usual times. You might be surprised at how this works out.

As for the middle of the night issues, I'll never underestimate those! I did the 1-3 am Maundy Thursday vigil slot one year, and my car got towed while I was praying. Turns out the church had a permanent 2 am tow order because the frat boys across the street kept parking in the church lot, and no one thought to warn me. So there I was, standing by myself on a very sketchy street corner at 3 am.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Those are fair observations and reservations, SvitlanaV2. Believe me, I don't think churches should set out with a defeatist mentality ...

But just as some MoTR churches can suffer from a lack of vision - as it were - 'without a vision the people perish ...' so some of the more pietistic or revivalist outfits can suffer from what some call 'vision inflation' - or what I'd call 'over-egging the pudding.'

It would seem that angelfish is expecting some kind of tangible or lasting change as a result of the 24/7 prayer rota thing.

I, too, would be curious as to how that can be measured and quantified.

How would angelfish know when the goals or whatever they are have been achieved?

What are the results he/she expects?

How would 24/7 prayer achieve that as opposed, say, to a weekly prayer meeting or a fortnightly one?
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'll bugger off if you prefer, Ruth W.

But I'm just asking questions. If they aren't helpful I'll clear off ...
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Well, my post was unnecessarily personal -- Ship's third commandment. My apologies.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
No need to apologise, RuthW. I wasn't offended and you are right, I do go on a fair bit ...

I will withdraw from this thread to give others a chance.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't think churches should set out with a defeatist mentality ...

But just as some MoTR churches can suffer from a lack of vision - as it were - 'without a vision the people perish ...' so some of the more pietistic or revivalist outfits can suffer from what some call 'vision inflation' - or what I'd call 'over-egging the pudding.'
I suspect that a degree of 'vision inflation' is probably essential in Christian culture overall, because without it there would be very little 'vision' tout court.

So for every twenty (or 200, or 2000...) churches that over-egg the pudding, as you say, there may be one whose foolishness and brazenness actually bears fruit.

I can't see an alternative to this. As much as you might want to see just the right amount of 'vision', you yourself imply that few churches are likely to get it right. So they might as well just do what they can, what they feel able and inclined to do (or not, as the case may be) and see what happens as a result.
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
SvitlanaV2 and Gamliel, I do appreciate your concern for me and my church and you raise some very important questions.

Gamaliel, you haven't "been there done that" in regards to my church. I suspect that independent churches are as varied as say Anglican congregations or Baptist ones or any other sort. We're all just groups of people in the end. I'm truly sorry that you've clearly had bad experiences somewhere, but you can't go around tarring everyone with the same brush and assuming that nothing good can come out of these places.

SvitlanaV2 Yes, I believe we do have amongst us enough discernment to filter out anything that's a product of the wackiest recesses of our own imaginations.

Briefly, the leadership have heard a clear word from God that He's got some ideas for us and the church needs to set aside time to listen to Him. 24-7 prayer is a practical outworking of that. Why 24-7, not just every night at 6pm? Well, why not? You could just as well ask "Why 2 hours every night for a week - why not 24-7 for a week?" It's a pattern of concentrated prayer we've chosen, that gives people the space to pray at a time convenient to them. We think our congregation will like it. As I've said above, it really wont matter if the room isn't in constant use - but it's there for anyone to use at any time.

Now, you might suspect that we silly sheep have imagined our shepherd's voice; that He's not going to provide us with any sort of idea of how He wants to bless our neighbourhood through us, and we'd be better off just reciting the same old stuff that makes us feel safe whilst knowing deep in our hearts that we're missing something. This is always a possibility, and I accept there is a risk of over-egging the pudding, as you put it. But you shouldn't assume that we are loonies who can't be responsible with a box of eggs. Some of us have over-egged in the past, or been hurt by things like that - we're quite a careful, wise bunch I think. Our greatest danger is doing things in our own strength then getting burnt-out. Time to listen and reflect is essential.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, yes?
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm saying nothing. I am withdrawing from this thread. I have some sympathy with SvitlanaV2's point-of-view and see no value in raining on angelfish's parade.

I am tempted to echo good Bishop Butler in his exchange with John Wesley. 'Sir, the pretending to revelations and gifts of the Holy Spirit is an horrid thing, a very horrid thing.'

History might be with Wesley rather than Butler, but even so, I share the bishop's caution.

Angelfish, no you are not loonies but my silence will be eloquent.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
The proof of the pudding will be in the inclusive incarnationality through holding all things in common.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
SvitlanaV2 and Gamliel, I do appreciate your concern for me and my church and you raise some very important questions.

About claims.

Gamaliel, you haven't "been there done that" in regards to my church.

Yes he has, we all have, we see this magical thinking all the time.

I suspect that independent churches are as varied as say Anglican congregations or Baptist ones or any other sort. We're all just groups of people in the end. I'm truly sorry that you've clearly had bad experiences somewhere, but you can't go around tarring everyone with the same brush and assuming that nothing good can come out of these places.

SvitlanaV2 Yes, I believe we do have amongst us enough discernment to filter out anything that's a product of the wackiest recesses of our own imaginations.

That is fallacious in itself. Starting the process at all without full acknowledgement of the 100% humanity of it with no magic is straight in to the wackiest recess. By decent, intelligent, well meaning people.

Briefly, the leadership have heard a clear word from God that He's got some ideas for us and the church needs to set aside time to listen to Him.

No they haven't. And what was it? This is just another tired old form of cold reading, of projection of the idealized self.

24-7 prayer is a practical outworking of that. Why 24-7, not just every night at 6pm? Well, why not? You could just as well ask "Why 2 hours every night for a week - why not 24-7 for a week?" It's a pattern of concentrated prayer we've chosen, that gives people the space to pray at a time convenient to them. We think our congregation will like it. As I've said above, it really wont matter if the room isn't in constant use - but it's there for anyone to use at any time.

That's all ritualistically and therapeutically fine. There is NO magic in it. There is God's provision in WISDOM, without MAGIC.

Now, you might suspect that we silly sheep have imagined our shepherd's voice; that He's not going to provide us with any sort of idea of how He wants to bless our neighbourhood through us, and we'd be better off just reciting the same old stuff that makes us feel safe whilst knowing deep in our hearts that we're missing something. This is always a possibility, and I accept there is a risk of over-egging the pudding, as you put it. But you shouldn't assume that we are loonies who can't be responsible with a box of eggs. Some of us have over-egged in the past, or been hurt by things like that - we're quite a careful, wise bunch I think. Our greatest danger is doing things in our own strength then getting burnt-out. Time to listen and reflect is essential.

He is going to use what's staring you in the face. He is going to use your open, FULLY open, honest, vulnerable, ignorant intellects and feelings. If you let Him.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, yes?
It certainly will. If you let Him talk. Through YOUR open, HUMBLE, weak, ignorant minds. He wants to REASON with you. In the Spirit of a sound mind. The moment you invoke magic you've shut Him out.
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

If you let Him talk. Through YOUR open, HUMBLE, weak, ignorant minds. He wants to REASON with you. In the Spirit of a sound mind. The moment you invoke magic you've shut Him out.
Sure. Who mentioned anything about magic (apart from yourself)?
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
You did mate. A clear voice from God. That's a CLAIM. It's . not . true. By definition. Quote it please. Quote His clear voice.
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You did mate. A clear voice from God. That's a CLAIM. It's . not . true. By definition. Quote it please. Quote His clear voice.
I never claimed to have heard a voice9. That's you projecting your preconceptions onto me.

I don't follow your logic that a claim to hear from God is untrue by definition. You seem to be question-begging somewhat.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
I didn't say you did: "Briefly, the leadership have heard a clear word from God that He's got some ideas for us and the church needs to set aside time to listen to Him.". But you owned that others did. What question?
 
Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :
 
Question-begging means that your argument is based on premises that assume the truth of your conclusion. You seem to be saying that no-one can ever hear from God, therefore any claim to hear from God must be false. But you haven't proved the first statement.

Anyway, this is very far from my OP and I'm not really interested in a discussion of whether I (and my fellow church leaders) am or am not deluded. All I will say on the matter is that your assertion that God would communicate through our rational minds is not far from what I am speaking of when I say we "heard a clear word from God". Perhaps I should have used different words so that you wouldn't take me so literally - there was no big voice in the sky, it was a sequence of events, things we were reading and things we had thought of, coming together and making sense. A bit like Eutychus's experience of various readings and teachings pointing in a certain direction which led to 7 days of 24-hour prayer and ultimately the provision of premises. No magic involved at all - but perhaps you would be kind enough to explain what you mean by "magic" and then I would understand you better.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Aye, we anecdotally autistic spectrum shallow end types can be a bit literal minded. As long as you're not, that's good.

And yes that is my premiss, that it literally does not occur and has not for over 1900 years.

Metaphoric, yearning, ritualistic, formulaic language is fine. But that wasn't obvious at all. You looked like you were away with the fairies of which I have seen - and been - MUCH.

Good luck.

I'd be interested to know what your reason in the Spirit of a sound mind comes up with.
 
Posted by Aijalon (# 18777) on :
 
This is a subject that has affected my life. As a resident of Kansas City or nearby KC for my whole life, I can tell you about an early 24/7 Prayer Room movement that has been going on here, and I can tell you that it has damaged people close to me.

I am working through this bitterness and it will flare up on these boards which look like a nice fit for me so far! [Yipee]

Angelfish... now that you have heard my caveat and are quite free to throw out all that I say, let me simply ask you to be extremely cautious.

I do endorse prayer meetings, obviously. However, the effort to set up a "payer room" in any sense of the 24/7 style, will invite what I believe to be a spirit of error and confusion.

If you truly just want to get a prayer meeting going, I would invite you to remove the label of "24/7" from it, and let people naturally include themselves on account of feeling connected to the body and to the head of the body by way of a prayer vigil.

The 24/7 label, as seen on the neato website... smacks to me of feeding on youthful hormonal energy and ending in prayer becoming a way of entertaining ourselves. As far as doctrine, simply think of what it is that the crowd is feeding on. Is it the sheep-feeding Jesus urged Peter to be doing? or some other kind?

And in the end, I suspect that this movement is connected to the widespread movement of false prophecy rampaging accross the world today (Revelation 9).

I am more than happy to detail my persona experience with this, and why I think the movement is a breeding ground for cultism.
 


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