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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: There's no shirking this.
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
In Islam God is 'simple': one person, one substance. Our declaring Him as one substance is not sufficient when we go on to declare Him in three persons.
All this is just irrelevant.
No matter how central the Trinity is to your faith, you don't go around blowing up those who don't share that belief.
The creed that matters is the creed of a plural society which says "believe what you will but don't inflict it on your neighbour". That's the Prime Directive, the practical imperative that trumps any theology.
The challenge is to distinguish those Muslims (and the same applies to Christians and everyone else) who are happy to follow Islam as a private belief, a personal way of life (that involves a like-minded community) within a plural society. And deport the others back to where they or their ancestors came from.
Except of course that gradualism rules. It's not that there are a few jihadist apples in a barrel of decent Allah-fearing folk. It's that the spectrum of Islamic belief includes every shade of grey in between.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
The only conceivable way ahead is good listening, finding common ground where we can followed by good disagreement (if such exists), where we can't. We should love, value, reach out and support one another just as justice says we should do for all people.
That doesn't mean though that we can blend with them in our belief system nor does it mean we believe or must consider every view to be right, even if it permissible to express it.
For a Christian who affirms the historic creeds (and de facto accepts the uniqueness of the Christian understanding of God), there is no accommodation with Islam: any such approach is syncretism.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I'm never sure, as a Baptist, whether I affirm the creeds. They have a much lower place than for most Christians.
Do I accommodate with Judaism? We enjoy mutual respect and scriptural overlap. Is that syncretism? What would a similar relationship with Islam look like?
I don't think of my faith as a private or personal thing. The interpersonal and community expressions are as important as the solitary one. Does that mean, Russ, that I would have to be deported back home? And where would that be? I'm what is sometimes called Caucasian, so do I get to see Baku, perhaps!
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
In Islam God is 'simple': one person, one substance. Our declaring Him as one substance is not sufficient when we go on to declare Him in three persons.
All this is just irrelevant.
No matter how central the Trinity is to your faith, you don't go around blowing up those who don't share that belief.
The creed that matters is the creed of a plural society which says "believe what you will but don't inflict it on your neighbour". That's the Prime Directive, the practical imperative that trumps any theology.
The challenge is to distinguish those Muslims (and the same applies to Christians and everyone else) who are happy to follow Islam as a private belief, a personal way of life (that involves a like-minded community) within a plural society. And deport the others back to where they or their ancestors came from.
Except of course that gradualism rules. It's not that there are a few jihadist apples in a barrel of decent Allah-fearing folk. It's that the spectrum of Islamic belief includes every shade of grey in between.
You completely miss the point Russ, which Exclamation Mark gets.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Is there a way ahead for Christianity (orthodox, Trinitarian) and Islam together?
Maybe there is, but I don't see this question as very relevant to the problem of Islamic extremism in Britain (and I'm assuming that this is what you have at the back of your mind. Apologies if not).
Firstly, I'm not convinced that the recent Islamic attacks in the UK were primarily anti-Christian. If they were, the men involved would have targeted churches and churchgoers and not girls at pop concert or young people in pubs. They focused on highly secular targets, not religious ones.*
Secondly, a lot of interfaith work AFAICS is carried out by well-meaning but ageing, middle class, Christian liberals. While I'm sure they do a lot of good, it must be difficult for them to engage with and understand the kinds of young, disaffected Muslim youth who risk being radicalised. What can they really offer?
There's interfaith work done from an evangelical perspective, and that seems very interesting. I've seen young local Muslims actually feel comfortable in a Christian evangelical environment. But these churches don't hide their evangelistic purpose, which from a non-evangelical, moderate Christian perspective isn't what interfaith work is supposed to be about. So there are ecumenical differences there.
The third problem, I think, is that outside of the USA's Religious Right, Western churches are simply quite weak entities. They have very little political power. But young radicalised Muslims are highly concerned about political issues - especially about Western involvement in the Middle East. Since most Christians have little interest in or influence on their governments' role in Middle Eastern conflicts, how can they be of 'use' to the angry young Muslims who think something ought to be done about Syria, for example?
But the sort of engagement that helps British Christians and Muslims to be good neighbours to each other is still very valuable.
*(BTW, I know the recent attack in Paris was near to Notre Dame cathedral, but the attacker's concerns seem to be primarily political, unless I'm mistaken.)
No SvitlanaV2, it has nothing to do with it. Apart from everything. We're not listening. We're not addressing universal social justice.
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Listening - yes, but we also need to act, and act as ourselves.
I think we're in an 'interesting' (may you be saved from living in interesting times) place. We can be good at spotting dickhead behaviour in our own community - Christians, and, more widely, white Brits - and pointing it out / taking the piss / protesting / resisting.
We're not at all experienced in using these skills on the 'other'; it feels like racism. I suspect this reluctance may become a kind of racism itself if we don't get a hold of ourselves.
One of the wankers who stabbed unarmed women in the streets recently, turns up in an old C4 documentary in which he unfurls an ISIS flag in a London park and nods half-smiling through narrowed eyes at a preacher in the kind of self-conscious pretence at religious wisdom familiar to many of us who have worshipped amongst inadequate men without much going on in their lives, for whom the role offers a small chance at self-respect and public recognition.
When such a inadequate white bloke kicks the sh*t (sorry, this is not Hell) out of a black guy, we know how to stand up. Now we need to work out how to do and say the same thing when the emotional cripple is brown.
We can't afford the luxury of outrage. We need to listen.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
@Aijalon, you're being a good neighbour but you are still committing greater shirk as you believe in the incarnation of the Father, unitarianism can't help you there.
I like to keep things objective as possible. The Bible is the best starting point (though perhaps not for you). Still have to ask.....
Revelation 11: do you see any clues in the vision of the end times that guides in relation to Islam? (Ch 11 or anywhere else). I would presume the answer is no.
If no, is there anything objective upon which we could base our "path forward" with Islam in a religious or cultural sense? As far as that goes, I think Islam would qualify as both a religion, and a culture, whereas Christianity no longer has a cohesive culture to call home. Muslims would say that Islam is both-in-one. Christians staunchly, perhaps even religiously, segregated the two.
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God gave you free will so you could give it back.
Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
@Aijalon, you're being a good neighbour but you are still committing greater shirk as you believe in the incarnation of the Father, unitarianism can't help you there.
I like to keep things objective as possible.
Not in your unitarianism. There's nothing objective about concluding that from the text.
The Bible is the best starting point (though perhaps not for you).
For what?
Still have to ask.....
Revelation 11: do you see any clues in the vision of the end times that guides in relation to Islam? (Ch 11 or anywhere else).
What end? What times?
I would presume the answer is no.
Of course.
If no, is there anything objective upon which we could base our "path forward" with Islam in a religious or cultural sense? As far as that goes, I think Islam would qualify as both a religion, and a culture, whereas Christianity no longer has a cohesive culture to call home. Muslims would say that Islam is both-in-one. Christians staunchly, perhaps even religiously, segregated the two.
The culture of true religion.
[ 08. June 2017, 14:23: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777
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Posted
second time you've tossed out Unitarianism.
Your responses are brief, and fun to read, but sometimes so brief as to be glib.
quote:
The culture of true religion.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) which would be......?
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God gave you free will so you could give it back.
Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The biblical one. In those exact terms.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We're not listening. We're not addressing universal social justice.
The mainstream congregations used to be very much into social justice. They still are, but perhaps these days they're often limited by a lack of manpower and money as to what they can actually achieve. And knowledge rather than just good intentions is surely very important.
AIUI, there is interfaith work going on in your city. A bishop based there has written an interesting book about the possibilities and challenges presented by interfaith work. Have you ever had any dealings with your local interfaith group?
On a positive note, this friendly 'interfaith' advert went viral a few years ago. From your POV the problem will be that it only represents a strong personal relationship, not some grand interfaith army battling on behalf of 'universal social justice'. But I tend to believe that these things have to start small.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
We can't afford the luxury of outrage.
Oh, I think we need to be alive to the necessity of outrage, when evil pops up and says hello. We might even feel a pang of hypocrisy about specks and planks if we share some culpability. Or we might just all kill each other, while reflecting that Northern Ireland or 1930s Germany turn out not to the the exceptional historical cases we've hitherto taken comfort in thinking them to be.
I'm off to read the Psalms.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We need to listen.
We need communication, but the best communication is two-way.
And the problem is not the modal Muslim. It's how to respond to the tail of the distribution.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
We can't afford the luxury of outrage.
Oh, I think we need to be alive to the necessity of outrage, when evil pops up and says hello. We might even feel a pang of hypocrisy about specks and planks if we share some culpability. Or we might just all kill each other, while reflecting that Northern Ireland or 1930s Germany turn out not to the the exceptional historical cases we've hitherto taken comfort in thinking them to be.
I'm off to read the Psalms.
Mate, you're Mancunian. You're fully human. I pulse with anger. And elation at the rapid destruction of these mad dogs by righteous agents. I was still stuck in my total rejection of just war phase when Bataclan happened and I was so impressed at the French police advancing against machine gun fire behind shields. Magnifique. It's what Jesus would have done.
We still have to open channels of communication with the mad dogs' masters. As Thatcher's MI5 did. And more. We HAVE to have a full, open, difficult, embarrassing, polite, insistent, tolerant, safe, uncompromising, generous, strong, benevolent conversation in public with UK Islam, to acknowledge our differences, above all to listen on our side, the dominant culture and to unite in seeking universal social justice despite the formal hostility from them and because of the informal, structural hostility from us. WE have to adapt to THEM. The other in our midst. Without compromising orthodoxy and being prepared to blow their mad dogs out of their socks in the blink of an eye. Whilst LISTENING, hearing. All the way down in safe space. So that mad dog tendencies have nowhere else to go.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Mad dog tails Russ!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We're not listening. We're not addressing universal social justice.
The mainstream congregations used to be very much into social justice. They still are, but perhaps these days they're often limited by a lack of manpower and money as to what they can actually achieve. And knowledge rather than just good intentions is surely very important.
AIUI, there is interfaith work going on in your city. A bishop based there has written an interesting book about the possibilities and challenges presented by interfaith work. Have you ever had any dealings with your local interfaith group?
On a positive note, this friendly 'interfaith' advert went viral a few years ago. From your POV the problem will be that it only represents a strong personal relationship, not some grand interfaith army battling on behalf of 'universal social justice'. But I tend to believe that these things have to start small.
Aye, I've been in an ecumenical meeting with the vicar of St. Philip's (URC), great guy. More radical and inclusive than the Anglican village church we were literally in at the time, apart from the Anglican vicar's wife who works at St. Philip's, and far more so than the Anglican char-evo megachurch I'll be at tonight (the 'other' Reformed are experiencing more postmodern emergence than the state's church I reckon). I've been to the Salafist mosque across the street, must introduce myself to St. Philip's. The bishop didn't write the book, one of his blokes did.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Ah yes, you're right about the author.
With regard to evangelical engagement with Muslims, the work I know about is lead by a Christian minister from a Muslim background, a sociable person who can speak with local Muslims in their own language. This kind of knowledge and commitment is invaluable, I should think.
Despite interfaith work being seen as liberal Christian thing, I feel that serious evangelicals have certain advantages with regard to engagement with Muslims. Both are very committed to their traditional doctrines, and that probably makes it easier for each to understand where the other is coming from. The tendency for liberals to shy away from certain Christian distinctives in order to avoid causing offense doesn't impress Muslims (and the book I mentioned above also makes this point).
Having a relatively youthful profile compared to other Christian movements, evangelicalism is also likely to give a better impression of Christian dynamism. Muslims have the lowest age profile of all religious groups in the UK, while Christians have an older age profile than the population at large, and it's noticeable that mainstream interfaith work tends to involve fairly elderly Christians alongside quite young Muslims.
The coming together of these two very different groups is positive in many ways, but any astute Muslim will realise that the demographics are on their side: Muslims make up only a small percentage of the British population, but they are likely to rival the number of practising Christians fairly soon. (Non-practising Christians may be more numerous, but are they going to engage in interfaith work??) This is why the presence of energetic evangelical Christians is surely essential for the future of interfaith work.
Out of interest, this source gives 2040 as the possible date when practising Muslims will overtake practising Christians in Britain. The next page of the text expresses the fear that with so few practising Christians, there will be an increasing polarisation between then and other believers. I'm not entirely convinced, although I do think that the lack of manpower and resources will undermine the Church's role as the wise, rational, self-sacrificial partner in British Muslim-Christian relations. There may not be much left for Christians to sacrifice in the next few decades. Maybe the eventual disestablishment of the CofE will be a necessity that can be presented as an interfaith virtue.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All good stuff. All.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The coming together of these two very different groups is positive in many ways, but any astute Muslim will realise that the demographics are on their side: Muslims make up only a small percentage of the British population, but they are likely to rival the number of practising Christians fairly soon.
I agree that both of these trends are positive ones with respect to ending terrorism.
To my mind the most salient fact is the threat that many in the Islamic world perceive in the inroads of Western culture. Anything that reduces that perception will reduce terrorism.
Unfortunately it may get worse before it gets better.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I don't see how the aging out of Christianity helps. Practising Muslims already have a throw weight orders of magnitude greater than the fragmented, weak, irrelevant, savourless practising Christian community. I mean quantifiably a hundred times more powerful. Islam is a personal, familial, communal way of life. The mosques are FULL of men. The madrasas are FULL of boys. All Christian leaders can do is get real and offer an oasis for listening for all and only ONE comes to mind who might be able to in the desert. With transcendent greater throw weight for their tiny numbers.
Young evangelicals are the only ones with any energy and yes Islam and other minority religions, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Jainism LIKE to have a strong benevolent indigenous religion even if they, especially Islam, must formally condemn it even if it, like evangelicalism, must be formally hostile back.
Which is the rub. There must be strong benevolent, generously orthodox Christian ears, arms and if necessary voices that are NOT. That are NOT hostile to the hostile. That incarnationally pursue universal social justice (including all necessary security measures of course) for and with the hostile.
The only high profile one is Steve Chalk.
I'll have to see locally how St. Philip's do.
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I just want to clarify and expand on what I meant above:
I wasn't saying that the ageing of Christianity is a good thing, but that the engagement of elderly Christians in interfaith work benefits community relations to the extent that any attempt at understanding and friendship benefits community relations.
Secondly, I don't think the decline of organised Christianity will help to bring Islamicist terrorism to an end. Indeed, the weakness of British Christianity probably gives strict Muslims the impression that there's very little godliness to be found among the indigenous population - something which may well add to their anger against the West. And some commentators fear that the reluctance of Christians to speak openly about their faith only reduces the level of respect that Muslims have for Christianity.
I agree with Martin60 that Islam benefits from being a way of life, from emphasising community, and from being attractive to men in a way that Western Christianity just isn't expected to be. Islam is also very resistant to secularisation. This seems to be a foundational issue with regards to Islam that's unlikely to change, regardless of the intervention of secularised, rational, well-meaning Christians.
The idea that Muslims aren't a fractured group isn't correct, though. One challenge that church leaders meet in trying to develop interfaith relations is that it's sometimes difficult to know where to find a representative Muslim leader who can speak for a 'community'. An area may have lots of small, independent mosques divided by ethnicity, language and theology, etc. Working with one mosque may mean very little in terms of engagement with the others, and if there's no 'denominational' oversight over the mosques how can the interfaith work have an impact among Muslims more widely?
I don't know what Rev. Steve Chalke is doing in terms of interfaith work. AFAIK, it's not what he's famous for. Does he have any church plants in heavily Muslim areas? His main church is in London, of course, and London is so rich in terms of all kinds of religion that it's not hard to imagine that he's found some local Muslims who share many of his values. Whether his approach would work in other parts of the country, for example in places where Islam is dominant and Christianity is marginal, is another matter.
[ 10. June 2017, 12:00: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I realise that this is slightly out of context, but the following seems to me to be relevant here:
quote:
out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham
The obsession with demographics is misplaced. The priority is to listen to the creative spirit of God, drawing us further into the reality of God's love, and to follow it, wherever it leads. That is the only way to be the pilgrim church we are called to be. The rest follows or falls away.
All of this nonsense which gets routinely poured out in such astonishing quantity, that treats faith as if it is neither more or less than identity and marketing, must be swept away.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The priority is to listen to the creative spirit of God, drawing us further into the reality of God's love, and to follow it, wherever it leads.
That could mean absolutely anything. Usually what people want it to mean. far too fuzzy.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
@SvitlanaV2, I very mainly agreed with your penultimate post, my response was to Freddy influenced by your post. I nod to your latest post regardless of course.
I hold up Steve Chalke regardless as no one else has his stature, his credibility due to his Christian liberal realism. If he can't step up, no one can from Christianity.
It then becomes solely the responsibility of secular liberal realism to embrace the eternal self proclaimed enemy within with strong benevolence.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
@SvitlanaV2, I very mainly agreed with your penultimate post, my response was to Freddy influenced by your post.
I read it that way too.
The trouble is that the throw weight of Christianity isn't the issue. Western domination is not specifically about the Christian religion.
Christianity is only one aspect of Western influence, and in fact its decreasing throw weight is a part of the issue. The Islamic world has good reason to believe that our influence will bring a similar all-pervasive secularism to their happy shores.
Regardless of how powerful a hold we perceive Islam to have on its people, I think that there is every reason to believe that it is as vulnerable to secularism as Christianity has been.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Regardless of how powerful a hold we perceive Islam to have on its people, I think that there is every reason to believe that it is as vulnerable to secularism as Christianity has been.
I don't know how many Muslims you've met, or in what circumstances. But Muslims have been coming to live in the UK in large numbers since the 60s and 70s, and in some areas Muslim immigrants from India or Pakistan have been the dominant ethnic minority group for some time. Those of us who live in multicultural areas have been able to witness the development of various forms of religiosity over time. Islam definitely follows a different trajectory.
Morever, academic research does show that the children of Muslim immigrants to the UK generally retain particularly high levels of religious faith and practice. (And some become even stricter than their parents.) Christian immigrants and their descendants experience higher levels of religious decline over time, assimilating more closely to the norms of a post-Christian society.
There are various reasons for Islamic faith retention. A significant one, I think, is that Muslim parents in Britain are often much more particular about the religious education of their children than Christian parents are. Another is that Islam is experienced in a far more communal way than Christian spirituality, which is mostly perceived by Westerners as something primarily personal and private.
There's also some concern about the 'segregation' of Muslims in some parts of the country. Regardless of the reasons for this, it does problematise assumptions about religious 'assmiliation' - what is there to assimilate into if the indigenous, secularised population have moved away?
OTOH, it's also interesting to read that achieving a high social status or level of education doesn't seem to have decreased the religious identity of Muslims in the UK, or wasn't doing so in the 90s.
Finally, Islam is now benefiting from a demographic advantage , and will become the world's dominant religion in about 20 years. Muslims will remain a small minority in Europe, but Europe will become demographically insignificant anyway. Worldwide, only about 10% of new-borns will be birthed by non-religious mothers over the next 30-40 years, which will make assumptions about the inevitability of secularisation, especially Muslim secularisation, difficult to sustain.
[ 12. June 2017, 21:37: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All the more reason for open societies to have an open conversation with those within that formally condemn them. With the enlightened tiny minority Church playing a vital and disproportionate part.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Morever, academic research does show that the children of Muslim immigrants to the UK generally retain particularly high levels of religious faith and practice. (And some become even stricter than their parents.)
Thank you for that. It is very interesting.
While I know many people from Muslim countries, such as Pakistan and Jordan, quite well, they are all Christian, I have not spent much time with Muslims. So that information is helpful.
I am sure that you are right that Muslims have a high retention rate generation to generation. That is important and good to know.
I still have the impression, though, that Islam relies on segregation where it is not the majority culture. I don't believe that it is not threatened by integration, by western secular education, and by westernization in general.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are various reasons for Islamic faith retention. A significant one, I think, is that Muslim parents in Britain are often much more particular about the religious education of their children than Christian parents are. Another is that Islam is experienced in a far more communal way than Christian spirituality, which is mostly perceived by Westerners as something primarily personal and private.
It strikes me that there are parallels with (say) Irish Catholics or Greek Orthodox who come/came to Britain - there are strong ties, both in terms of religion and community identity.
However (and I'm thinking of Britain) that this will inevitably decline through generations of living in a secularised and disparate society, although it may take time. I think two of the biggest issues might be people "marrying out" and also imbibing Western ideas of individualised thought. Paradoxically a sense of deprivation or being demonised is likely to increase the sense of Muslim identity and lead some folk into extremist positions. Let's not forget that the early Nonconformist Christians were often persecuted and could be insular, wacky or even violent.
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SvitlanaV2
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Freddy
I agree that it does rely on segregation to a certain extent. But there's no sign that the segregation of Muslims is going to come to an end in the UK, or in other parts of Western Europe, any time soon.
You've no doubt heard the term 'white flight'. For whatever reason, it often applies to areas of Muslim settlement, although varying in degree from place to place. Many Muslim children now attend schools in which they are the majority religious group - sometimes even in 'church' schools. Their teachers are obviously not minded to create situations of high cultural conflict for pupils.
Middle classes Muslims move further away in time, but if a critical mass is achieved in the suburbs they go to the process continues.
However, it's true that not all Muslims are the same. Bangladeshi Muslims in London apparently become secular more easily. Iranian Muslims are more liberal than some other groups, as are East European Muslims. But it's all relative - and the latter two groups are fairly small anyway.
[ 13. June 2017, 11:21: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However (and I'm thinking of Britain) that this will inevitably decline through generations of living in a secularised and disparate society, although it may take time. I think two of the biggest issues might be people "marrying out" and also imbibing Western ideas of individualised thought.
That is my thinking too. It is hard to maintain segregation forever. On the other hand the Amish in my area have done it for hundreds of years and are thriving.
Marriage is a big part of this. I think that "Fiddler on the Roof" is kind of the universal parable of this kind of change.
I also think that your point about "demonization" increasing the sense of identity is true. Naturally there is a reciprocal demonization of the West happening simultaneously.
Still, it can't last forever, unless it actually takes over. But this can't happen, in my view, because it seems to me that Islam does not fare as well in a population that is universally educated, that is connected through social media, and whose liberties are guaranteed by democratic government.
All of these must gradually erode Islam's hold on people, it seems to me, because it is a religion that requires obedience more than rigorous and free questioning of beliefs.
I could be wrong about that because I don't know many Muslims. So I would love to hear about that.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
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Most of my Muslim neighbours are Pakistani in origin. There's a tradition to marry within families; this is one reason there are a lot of young women around who don't speak much, or any, English - as well as older women like my immediate neighbour who has got by with almost no English for more than 40 years. This has implications for how people and their kids integrate into the wider city community.
An older Muslim man I know (who comes across as very English - he's more of a Mancunian than I am) has commented to me that when he was young he was in a small minority and most of his school friends were white-English, whereas now quite large bits of our neighbourood work as a kind of self-contained subculture. A few of my neighbours (him included) have expressed misgivings about this, but demographics (and a tendency to buy houses adjacent to other relatives where possible) make it inevitable.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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SvitlanaV2
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It's the same where I live in the West Midlands. What's there for Muslims to 'assimilate' into?
I agree that many Muslims would like to live in communities with more white British neighbours. But by this point in time it's not going to happen for many of them, except for the most successful, who may move far away from their families and support networks.
London may be different because there's such religious and social pluralism there. A home in London is desirable, regardless of the neighbours. But even London is experiencing 'white flight', for various reasons.
Ultimately I'm convinced that increasing diversity will complicate assumptions about secularisation as a route to assimilation, not least for a religious minority which is now highly self-aware, assertive and has a model of Christian decline as a vivid depiction of what not to do.
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Ultimately I'm convinced that increasing diversity will complicate assumptions about secularisation as a route to assimilation, not least for a religious minority which is now highly self-aware, assertive and has a model of Christian decline as a vivid depiction of what not to do.
That is a great perspective. It is interesting that increasing diversity is seemingly the opposite of assimilation. I am so fascinated to see how it turns out.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
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Superb throughout SvitlanaV2. Do we just keep calm and carry on? No conversation can take place? Just social evolution? Hostility to the other, outsiders is intrinsic to, explicit in, all religion. All. How can that ever evolve away?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Superb throughout SvitlanaV2. Do we just keep calm and carry on? No conversation can take place? Just social evolution? Hostility to the other, outsiders is intrinsic to, explicit in, all religion. All. How can that ever evolve away?
I'm sure the evolution continues, and that conversation is a significant part of it. Familiarity may breed contempt, but it also decreases fear.
Many trends are on the side of mutual peace and respect. One is the relentless spread of the English language. Language is the great assimilator.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Superb throughout SvitlanaV2. Do we just keep calm and carry on? No conversation can take place? Just social evolution? Hostility to the other, outsiders is intrinsic to, explicit in, all religion. All. How can that ever evolve away?
Of course conversations can take place. As I said above, communication is always valuable.
But what churches can achieve in the fight against radicalisation is questionable. I'm not sure if most of them have the means to do much about it.
For a start, what familiarity does the average clergymen have with Islam? What does the average church community know about the issues that lead to radicalisation? What training is available to them? And who would pay for it?
Moreover, why would the most extreme groups welcome Christian nosiness and interference? I frequently walk past a mosque which is known to have hosted extremist preachers. What kind of 'rapport' is that kind of mosque likely to have with the local Anglo-Catholics or the New Testament Church of God congregation?
It might make more sense for concerned and informed Christians to link up with each other online and to participate in discussions with young Muslims on internet forums. After all, that's where a lot of radicalisation apparently happens nowadays, and I think it would just be easier to reach out if we could bypass all the institutional hierarchies, the posturing, the cultural awkwardness, the do-gooding, etc.
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Martin60
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The OP wasn't motivated by radicalization, but by how to treat with a poor, powerful minority culture that formally damns Christians and atheists. Nothing new there in general, Jesus and Paul were great damners. It's taken millennia for that to die out. It will just take many, many more, if it can at all, in Islam. Can Islam survive without its inherent hostility? Christianity can't it seems.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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I did ask you if you had radicalisation/terrorism in mind, and I thought you'd responded in the affirmative. I must have misunderstood you.
I don't know much about it, but I assume there are universalists in Islam as well as Christianity. However, all I want is for us to let each other live in peace, which doesn't seem to be impossible. I don't see much point in worrying about what another religion teaches about damnation.
[ 15. June 2017, 21:01: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Martin60
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It won't be you SvitlanaV2. Aye, ignore the nasty theology until it goes away. It will just take many times longer than the two thousand years it has taken to go away in northern Europe. Directly correlated with universal social justice.
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Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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You know, I don't think it's really about damnation, but about power. I'm not sure the early Muslim warriors were deeply concerned about the souls of the men they fought. And the various European wars of religion don't seem to have been about keeping the populace out of hell, but about who would have control over people's lives in the here and now.
Now, the atheists would say that we should do away with both heaven and hell if we want harmony. But although hell is very low key these days, I don't imagine it'll completely disappear, not least because it gives groups an impetus to evangelise, and without evangelism religious movements struggle to grow, regardless of their other qualities. And can a heaven-free monotheism ever have much appeal to people who struggle in this life?
The universal social justice you write about may occur when we all use the same amount of the earth's resources, but this would require whole nations to drop their standard of living across the board. It's unlikely to happen without some catastrophe occurring first.
I can imagine environmental degradation leading some Western Christians to reject modern benefits and to take on a subsistence lifestyle, but I don't imagine such groups would generally be liberal. Extreme conditions don't benefit liberal Christianity (or Islam, I imagine). Nor would these religious groups have the means to play Lady Bountiful.
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Can Islam survive without its inherent hostility? Christianity can't it seems.
Don't forget that Christianity's struggles in Europe and America are a far cry from how it is faring elsewhere. Not sure that it is especially hostile most places.
Here are some figures from Wikipedia
quote:
On April 2, 2015, the Pew Research Center published a Demographic Study about “The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050" with projections regarding Christianity.
The projection begins with 2010 statistics when "Christianity was by far the world’s largest religion, with an estimated 2.2 billion adherents, nearly a third (31%) of all 6.9 billion people on Earth. Islam was second, with 1.6 billion adherents, or 23% of the global population.”
Projected growth of Christianity by 2050
Some of the projections are as follows:
1. "Over the 2010-2050 period, Christians will remain the largest religious group with 34.1% of the world’s population. However, Islam will grow faster and become 29.7% of the world’s population. Therefore, by 2050 there will be 2.8 billion Muslims compared to 2.9 billion Christians."
2.“In the United States, Christians will decline from more than three-quarters of the population in 2010 to two-thirds in 2050.”
3. "Using data from the period 2000–2005 the 2006 Christian World Database estimated that by number of new adherents, Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the world with 30,360,000 new adherents in 2006. This was followed by Islam with 23,920,000 and Hinduism with 13,224,000 estimated new adherents in the same period."
I don't think that this takes into account the changes due to assimilation in an increasingly integrated world.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
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I hadn't forgotten Freddy. Hence my excluding America where hostile Christianity is loud. The growth of the two major Abrahamic religions is not good news. They are intrinsically violent, patriarchal, sexist, homophobic, hostile, alienated and alienating, exclusive, illiberal, ignorant, intolerant, anti-intellectual.
Happy days.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
They are intrinsically violent, patriarchal, sexist, homophobic, hostile, alienated and alienating, exclusive, illiberal, ignorant, intolerant, anti-intellectual.
In other words, post-modernism is the answer. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
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Anyone invited to Eid? Would you go if asked? Why not? Would Jesus go to Eid? Would he eat and drink and groove to the music?
FWIW I've gone. I've also been in a sweat lodge (Cree). It's all God.
[ 17. June 2017, 00:30: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
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I've had Ramadan breakfast with my housemates, smoked shisha and talked 9 11 and Israel and Arab Spring with them and when we went our separate ways I took them all to Nandos. Lovely blokes. Our neighbours feed us on Eid al-Fitr. I'm sure they all regret my looming eternal burning. My boss used to try and save me.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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Muslims are very generous people, especially round the time of their religious festivals. In Britain they give more to charity than other religious groups.
I doubt that all Muslims expect their non-Muslim friends and colleagues to go to hell. However, Islam is a proselytising religion, just like Christianity (in theory), so it's hardly surprising that Muslims want to convert people. The alternative is decline from assimilation, ageing and outmarriage, which is Judaism's problem.
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Martin60
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But I'm a shirker, therefore I'm unforgivable post-mortem, just as they are to "evangelicals".
[ 20. June 2017, 15:45: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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My point is simply that not all Muslims agree on this matter. And not all Christians agree on who goes to hell, or even if hell exists.
Also, AFAIK, most 'Muslim' violence is perpetrated by Muslims on other Muslims. 'Shirkers' don't seem to be the priority.
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Martin60
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I'm certainly not aware that any UK raised Islamist terrorist murdered anyone for shirk. And I cannot believe that any of the most excellent Salafist men I had the privilege of socializing with after Salat al-zuhr - noon prayers - don't believe that those that are atheist or trinitarian at death are eternally damned.
I'm fully aware of all the current permutations of Sunni, Shia, Turkish, Kurd, Saudi, Yemeni, Syrian, Iraqi, Pakistani, Iranian, Afghani murder.
Lebanon's good now.
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Love wins
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