Thread: What do you admire most about other people's traditions / Traditions Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Right, Gamaliel follows through on another thread promise ...

I'm sometimes accused of gratuitous side-swipes at evangelicalism. To some extent, I'll hold up my hand and say, 'Guilty as charged ...' but with the caveat that it's my impression that I don't do this as often as I used to as I was sloughing off my traditional evangelical skin and morphing into a post-evangelical / paleo-orthodox / 'pre-catholic' / whatever I am now ...

But perception is everything and if I'm perceived that way - as is apparent on the 'Our Lady's Marriage' thread - then it's a perception I will now redress.

I'd like Shippies to list things they particularly admire about traditions / Traditions other than their own - or traditions / Traditions they've been involved with and now, for whatever reason, appreciate whilst not necessarily engaging as fully as they once did.

I'll start and to get the ball rolling, here are things I greatly appreciate and admire about the evangelical tradition that has been so formative in my own spiritual development (if I can put it that way):

1) I admire evangelicalism's commitment to the Gospel. To the God who is there.

2) I admire the democratisation' that can come with evangelicalism - although it can lead to extreme individualism and subjectivity.

3) I admire the commitment and grit of many evangelicals. They run deep. They keep going even when the going gets tough. The tradition isn't as facile as some of its critics suggest.

4) I admire the activism that many evangelicals display. 'If you want to get something done, ask an evangelical ...'

5) I like the biblicism - although I feel it should and could be contextualised more and that evangelicalism can only gain from interaction and insights from other traditions / Traditions.

6) I admire the intentionality.

I'm sure I could list more. I won't damn with faint praise by listing what I consider to be down-sides. You know my views on those already.

There.

Who's next?
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I'll go for this.

I admire...
1) the holiness groups for their zeal and energy. I profoundly disagree with them on so much, but this is awesome.
2) the CMA and similar types for their huge effort in evangelization. Also for self-sacrificing efforts on the mission field.
3) The Roman Catholics for their stuff in the field of meditation/contemplation, and for some awesome music (confession: I'm a classical and older nut)
4) Episcopalians/Anglicans for mostly being able to keep yourselves together while being at opposite ends of the spectrum. Any spectrum. My folks tend to get direly dour and divisive about the position of the chancel chairs.
more later...
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
I don't have the time at the moment to do justice to the post, but I think that you raise really good questions, although I also see that, as framed, this could (probably will) go badly off the rails in an incendiary manner.

Quickly - I have serious problems with just about everyone, but here's the biggie: Until we accept all Christians to the table of Our Lord's Supper, we are being base hypocrites when we have any discussion of ecumenical issues with Jews, Hindus, Muslims, whomever. If I cannot take communion in a RCatholic or Orthodox church, how are we, as a community of Christians, going to have a meaningful engagement with anyone outside our faith community? We have to get our house in order, and stop making a fetish of the small differences. And then we can be intellectually and spiritually honest in our outreach to other faith communities. Until we do that, it's all cant and blather.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
This is less "what do you appreciate about" and more "what have you gotten from".

Evangelicals: love of, and perhaps more importantly knowledge of, the Bible. The vast majority of the knowledge I have of Scripture (such as it is) I gleaned whilst sojourning with the Evangelicals, and the rest using the methods, and because of the love for the Bible, I found there.

RCC: Love of the saints, contemplative prayer, understanding of holiness, sense of awe/numinousness.

Charismatics: Love of, and enthusiasm in, prayer.

Episcopalians: Love of the Sacrament. Self-forgiveness. Belonging.

Methodists: John Wesley. Nuff said.

Brethren (Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship): Simplicity. Ecumenicalism. Evangelism.

Presbyterians: Sense of awe/numinousness. Christian feminism. Religion and the Bible as something near and personal rather than distant and formal. Also, they baptised me.

Baptist (ABC): Theology as something to debate about rather than swallow whole.

Paganism: Food as interpersonal communion.

Taoism: The danger of striving.

Buddhism: Contemplative prayer/meditation.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Cool.

I like the responses so far.

My intention isn't for this to become incendiary. I don't think it is smouldering so far and if it did then I'm sure we have sufficient hose-pipes and buckets of water handy.

I've listed my points about evangelicalism and would add a 'ditto' to the point Mousethief has raised about love of and knowledge of the scriptures.

I'd also add ticks and comments to the following:

RCC: Lectio-divina, contemplative prayer, sense of awe/numinousness.

Charismatics: I know I've often been critical but I do still value the enthusiasm, zeal and 'hwyl.'

Episcopalians: I don't know a great deal about US Episcopalians but as for the CofE - the 1662 Prayer Book, Evensong in country churches, Compline, eccentricity.

Methodists: John Wesley. Indeed. Charles Wesley too. Some great hymns and some good preaching too in my experience.

Brethren: One for Kaplan ... love and knowledge of the scriptures.

Salvation Army: Sleeves rolled up. More to the music than oompah-oompah.

Presbyterians: Not had a lot of contact with them in real life but I've been impressed by their thoughtful and considered approach, both in real life and online.

Baptist (BUGB): congregational emphasis (when it works), democratic principles, willingness to listen and to learn.

Buddhism: I admire the discipline.

Orthodoxy: Sense of longevity and tradition, iconography, chant, sense of the numinous - but with a grounded earthiness. Great line in beards and hats.

Liberals: Emphasis on social action and equality.

Quakers: Silence. Reflection. Social emphasis. Simplicity.

Pagans: Emphasis on nature, sense of place, environment.

Jews: Sense of antiquity and tradition, humour, long-suffering.

Muslims: Strength of devotion.

Have I left anyone out?
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
MT:

Well said. As a foodie, I especially liked your comment about pagans. It reminded me of the Ethiopian "gursha", in which you feed a guest or loved on by hand. Strangely, beautifully, meaningful. (I once was subjected to this in an Armenian restaurant, though I don't think that it was so much a matter of tradition as enthusiasm.)
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
I don't admire anything about other people's stupid ways. You're all heading to hell anyway, I suppose, so it doesn't really matter anyway.
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
Love this thread. I want to think more about this, but here are two that occur to me off the top of my head:

re Catholicism:

1. Contemplative spirituality: lectio, Examen, etc.

2. Consistent pro-life ethics: not the knee-jerk "no baby killers!" kind, but a consistent, well thought-out ethic based on a deep value of every human life, born and unborn, and an unflinching commitment to living that out the implications of that re health care, poverty, capital punishment, etc. Consistency and thoughtfulness.

re liberal Christianity

1. Commitment to justice and human compassion

2. In particular, commitment to justice on LGBTQ+ issues. I owe an enormous personal debt of gratitude here.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Cool.

Have I left anyone out?

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Since you've included Islam, Buddhism and Judaism you'd have to include all the other religions as well.

Some might argue that even atheism has its own traditions by now. Perhaps agnosticism also.

As for Christianity, you didn't include the Pentecostals. Without them you don't have the Charismatics.

[ 30. June 2017, 17:05: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, and I didn't mention the Lutherans either.

As for other religions, I've not come across Hinduism or Jainism in sufficient 'detail' to form an opinion.

In the same way that I don't have much to go on when it comes to Lutherans, other than what I've seen online.

To redress an imbalance, though, I'll mention the Pentecostals.

Pentecostalism: I admire the rootsiness and the 'hwyl' (I'm from South Wales) and the fervent commitment to evangelism.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
What do I admire about atheism and agnosticism?

Atheism: Its certainty.

Agnosticism: Its uncertainty.


 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Hindism for its tolerance.

Islam for its philosophical thought in the Middle Ages.
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
On the Christian side, there's a lot of really pretty churches. Particularly European Catholic ones interiorly (and probably native Orthodox ones too).
And again in most of them, definitely across denominations and scales. There's clear signs of activity and commitment and outworking and working together.
This also would apply across religions, except it's harder to see.

Particularly on the lib/evo/trad/cent (& subdivisions) often you can see the stereotype weaknesses of each (in a depressing way), but just as often you can see it working out as it should, and enough times you see something else it working out in a way that breaks it's stereotype (which is always exciting).
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Sikhism doesn't proselytise, which from a secular perspective is admirable. It's also fashionable to praise Sikhs for their ability to assimilate relatively easily into Western culture.

Confucianism = respect for the elders and parents? Mastery over one's emotions?

Hinduism = highly able to absorb outside influences? Flexibility?

Hinduism and related Eastern religions seem to offer a strong spirituality, and creative traditions of asceticism. I should think they're very useful outlets for people who don't fit into everyday society.

Some argue that certain animistic religions (e.g. in South America) have a very strong sense of the supernatural. The whole environment they represent is an enchanted space.

Many African religions seem to have a quality which modern Westerners could relate to; they envision God as a creator but not as a lawgiver or judge. He doesn't cramp anyone's style. (OTOH, African communities were once small and tight-knit, and a law-giving god wasn't necessary for shared values of behaviour to be enforced.)

Various 'traditional' religions posit a chief goddess as equal with or even above or instead of a god, hence discouraging certain aspects of patriarchy.

And local religions anywhere emphasise roots, connections with the land, with ones ancestors. This may explain some of the modern appeal of Druidism, Wicca, Thor-worship, etc., in Northern Europe. We live in a de-racinated modern world. But by extension, it's easy to leave such religions behind when you move on. The gods don't seem to mind.

[ 30. June 2017, 17:59: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Lutherans.....they taught me/ still teach me that there is so much more to Advent than i realised.
 

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Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
I'm learning from Presbyterians to value the psalms more, and at least from some of them how to disagree and live with disagreement well.

I admire our local Baptists and independents for their willingness to help others, and being unashamed about stepping in and offering where I might be willing but too embarrassed. I admire the evangelical willingness to share what they believe.
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am currently reading and reviewing Laurence Rees's The Holocaust: A New History, and have been reminded that they withstood Nazism more consistently than any other section of Christendom.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, that's often over-looked, Kaplan. The Witnesses were pretty consistent on that and suffered the consequences ...
 

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Posted by Wulfia (# 18799) on :
 
Evangelicals--knowing the text of the Bible. Even the boring bits. Making sure I (in my youth) learned the stories, the building-blocks of Christianity.

Catholics--systematic theology. Working out theological ideas to their final consequences. Teaching me to follow my own thoughts and evaluate where they led.

Anabaptists--"put not your hope in princes." Not conflating religion and politics. Taking responsibility for what I personally can do to help a situation (or not participate in an evil), before I start complaining about/coercing others about what they are doing/not doing.

Muslims--public witness. Not being ashamed to be seen as believers publicly by distinctive dress, diet, or prayer habits.

Jews--community life. Religion not just as a silo in life, but as a living culture passed down through the generations. The boldness to argue with God, without insolence or faithlessness.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'll go for this.

I admire...
4) Episcopalians/Anglicans for mostly being able to keep yourselves together while being at opposite ends of the spectrum. Any spectrum. My folks tend to get direly dour and divisive about the position of the chancel chairs.
...

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Not much longer, I fear
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Quakers - for their consistent peace and social justice testimony. In addition I have attended a number of meetings in two different cities and was quietly made to feel welcome.

Orthodox for the richness of ritual, the colours and the smells.

The Salvation Army, for being one of only 2 organisations that door knocked the remaining houses in the east of Christchurch after the 2011 quake to offer support ( the other was the electric lines company). Other churches were involved in different ways, but the Salvos were more immediately organised. Also their public apology for their stance on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill (and later, law).

The Presbyterians of the church I started attending around 12 years ago for their love and support.

Buddhism for the practice of Mindfulness.

Probably lots more too - but this is what sprung to mind immediately,

Huia
 

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Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
The CoE. The church of my infant baptism. Literally the same building. It took me back after 51 years during a frightful time which got worse. It carried me through the next seven years and my meeting my final wife. We've left behind all the claims and institutionalized injustice, but I keep going for the social activism.

Oh, and EVERY tradition on the Ship for nearly 20 years. Embodied in you all.
 

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Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :
 
I love the Book of Common Prayer and lots of Anglican church music.

After my father's funeral, at which my Muslim cousins had their heads covered, I started wearing a mantilla at Mass. I'm not sure why - maybe to feel close to the traditions of my father's family, now that he isn't around to keep us close (though he was about as secular and humanist as they come, despite being brought up Muslim), maybe to share in the many ancient traditions of head-covering, many of which are cultural as well as religious.
 

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Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
When I say the CoE, the four congregations I've been part of, due to work-life, were on a spectrum dominated by the charismatic evangelical. So I've had to learn! How to swim in those waters.

On visits to high churches the welcomes have always been good by the clergy. And the encounters I've had with URC and Baptist clergy have been wonderfully surprising: one of each, both post-conservative.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
The Quakers for not sweating their numbers, but keep on keeping on who and what they are, a Light to the world. I think of them whenever I hear other denominations cry out, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" when they consider their falling attendance.
 

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Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Oooh, and the emotionally warmest place I ever entered was Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral. The middle of a weekday and it was busy. The most sublime will always be St. Paul's over Easter.

And I love going in empty little Anglican churches and having them all to myself or with my wife. I used to write prayer requests for my previous situation all over rural Warwickshire.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Empty little Anglican churches which you can have to yourself for a few quiet minutes are one of the best features of living in the UK, I think.

Sadly, not so many of them are as open these days as they used to be, but our countryside is full of them.

I hope the Good Lord preserves a few of them for an eternal British Countryside theme-park in heaven ...

Alongside a few pubs with traditional hand-pulled ale ...

Meanwhile, @Lyda Rose ... agreed on the Quakers in that respect as well as many others.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Empty little Anglican churches which you can have to yourself for a few quiet minutes are one of the best features of living in the UK, I think. ...

Alongside a few pubs with traditional hand-pulled ale

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quote:

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
The situation may be different in the USA but in the UK I think most people will never have met a Quaker or have any idea what they are about. It's easier to be some sort of light if you have bigger numbers, just because more people will come across you.

The only Quaker I have met ( that I know of ) is the shipmate Welease Woderwick.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
The situation may be different in the USA but in the UK I think most people will never have met a Quaker or have any idea what they are about. It's easier to be some sort of light if you have bigger numbers, just because more people will come across you.

The only Quaker I have met ( that I know of ) is the shipmate Welease Woderwick.

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If I have met any Quakers IRL, I did not know it. I know the location of a building that claims to be a Society of Friends Meeting House, but I don't know how many, if any, attend.

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We have several Quaker fellowships, both large and small, in Southern California. I know many Quakers, but that's because of the circles I work/fellowship in.
 

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Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 
I'll speak of what I've experienced.

Anglicanism: beautiful choral music. The Anglican form of the Eucharist is the most deep and meaningful form for me (and I'm very low-church evangelical). We owe much to Cranmer. I don't get on too well with Elizabethan language in worship myself, but I do know we owe much to him.

Roman Catholicism: plainchant, contemplative prayer, Ignatian spirituality, the deep Catholic thinking on the nature of evil, the profound awareness of the communion of saints. And some gorgeous churches. Also for making me think hard about the place of the feminine within orthodox Christianity.

Orthodox Church: the singing gives me shivers. Their strong Trinitarian emphasis. Their monastic wisdom.

Brethren: I owe to them a life-long love of the Bible. Also thanks to them for making me an evangelical feminist. The strong emphasis on the priesthood of believers (although more in the ideal than in the practice, since the Brethren quickly began restricting women. Sigh.) That Dissenter spirit has never quite left me though, and I'm grateful for that. The Church needs it.

Judaism: I love that Jews have no theological qualms about struggling with God and throwing hard questions at Him.

The Vineyard stream of charismaticism: although I have issues with aspects of Wimber's theology, there was a quite extraordinary quality to the worship produced by the Vineyard churches in the mid 80s to early 90s. There was a purity and simplicity, even a strongly contemplative quality, to the worship that I think can partly be traced to Wimber's Quaker roots.
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Empty little Anglican churches which you can have to yourself for a few quiet minutes are one of the best features of living in the UK, I think.

Sadly, not so many of them are as open these days as they used to be, but our countryside is full of them.

I hope the Good Lord preserves a few of them for an eternal British Countryside theme-park in heaven ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by sabine:
I like the tradition of four part harmony acapella singing among the Mennonites.

sabine

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quote:

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Originally posted by VirginiaKneeling:

quote:

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Originally posted by sabine:
I like the tradition of four part harmony acapella singing among the Mennonites.

sabine

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If you like that, you should hear the 4 part harmony in the US Church of Christ congregations. It'll blow you away! They do not believe in instrumental music in worship, and kiddies learn their parts early on.
Mennonites hereabouts in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia do use Instruments, at least the less conservative ones do. The Old Order ones may not.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
As a former Catholic, I maintain a pretty strong affection for the doctrine of purgatory. <<snip>> If I were a true believer I'd understand that God has his own reasons for eternally burning a 5-year old who was never told about Jesus (for example)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
As a former Catholic, I maintain a pretty strong affection for the doctrine of purgatory.

Traditional binary, either/or salvation seems like a bad game show. "I'm sorry, Mr. Jones, but you did NOT accept Christ as your lord and personal saviour, so into the fiery pits you go."

And universalism is like graduating with a beautiful, gold-trimmed diploma from an open-admissions college that gives you full marks just for applying in the first place.

Purgatory strikes a nice balance between the two. Granted, some might argue it relies too much on human notions of justice, and if I were a true believer I'd understand that God has his own reasons for eternally burning a 5-year old who was never told about Jesus(for example). But I think I subscribe to the view that man's justice seems the most rational precisely because it corresponds with what God wants.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
As a former Catholic, I maintain a pretty strong affection for the doctrine of purgatory. <<snip>> If I were a true believer I'd understand that God has his own reasons for eternally burning a 5-year old who was never told about Jesus (for example)

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You're not confusing purgatory with limbo, are you? The nuns taught us that limbo is where you go if you were basically a good person but never baptized; that it was sort of a never-never land where you were not eternally burned, or burned at all for that matter, but didn't see God either.

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quote:

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I guess the usual Protestant thought on this is that when we are saved and "die in the Lord" that along with a glorified body we get a glorified character automatically.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Lyda wrote:

quote:

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I guess the usual Protestant thought on this is that when we are saved and "die in the Lord" that along with a glorified body we get a glorified character automatically.

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Which, as some have pointed out, comes perilously close to salvation-through-good-works. Because, while yes, it's technically the faith that is saving you, that faith is always going to be accompanied by good works.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I knew it was too good to last. A thread about what we admire about other traxiry turns into a theological spat ...

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