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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Pope is (gasp) a Lutheran?
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
A group of conservatives have published a letter entitled A Brotherly Correction (in so many words). Among the charges (on pages 12-14) they charge he is following the teachings of Luther!
Now, I know, Francis is a very good friend of a Lutheran minister in Argentina. Do you think it is rubbing off?
The last time such an action happened was in the 1300's. That pope recanted. Not sure Francis is going to do that.
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
A group of conservatives have published a letter entitled A Brotherly Correction
Surely it's a Childish Correction ?
(A Brotherly Correction is what they are/were hoping the dissident cardinals, or perhaps bishops, would issue.)
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The last time such an action happened was in the 1300's. That pope recanted.
To what and whom specifically are you referring?
It is true that "the 1300s" was a tempestuous period for the papacy, with Boniface VIII's Unam Sanctam at their beginning, the Babylonian Captivity in their middle, and the Great Schism at their end, but I cannot recall any instance of a pope "recanting" during this century.
Were you thinking perhaps of John XXII and his conflicts over the HRE, the Fraticelli and the beatific vision, in which he did not always get his own way?
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
Hmmmm. I've skimmed about 6 pages. From his quotes, it sounds like he's being both merciful and universalist.
To which I can only respond with a rousing chorus of the good German hymn, "Now Thank We All Our God".
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
From what I understand, he spent a lot of time with everyday Argentinians, particularly in shanty-towns/slums. So, he's well familiar with people whose life circumstances don't fit the..."doctrinal stereotype", for lack of a better term, of how a good person/Christian/Catholic should live. (And, of course, that can certainly apply to people of other social/economic classes.) And IIRC he was a bouncer at a club, long ago.
BTW: I wonder if part of the original document is missing? The main letter seems to end at the bottom of pg. 16, and the rest is a citation of references. But the pg. 16 ending doesn't seem like an ending at all. It's late, and I'm tired, and maybe I missed something. But I checked a couple of times.
Oh, and the signatories are listed on that site, on their own page, but not in the document.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
Gawd. And we thought that Sydney Anglicans were small-minded.
You're right that this seems to be only a part of an even longer document.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
...which makes me curious about those missing pages...
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Some of the reasoning reads like,
'Martin Luther ate breakfast. The Pope eats breakfast. Therefore the Pope is a Lutheran'.
The writer(s) read as though he/they likes dogma because it means one can avoid both thought and engagement.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
They should have nailed it to the door of St Peter's Basilica in Rome. Oh wait ....
Seriously, it looks as though Pope Francis is, increasingly, a Vatican 2 Pope in both principle and proposal. That is a red rag to a bull so far as the conservative elements of Catholicism are concerned, since they thought that the reformist tendencies of Vatican 2 had been stopped and skewered by the last two Popes. Hence this reaction.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
Hopefully, his reign will end better than that of JP I (who I particularly liked).
There were allegations that JP I was murdered. Fr. Malachi Martin looked into that, and wrote a book about it. He finally decided that JP I wasn't directly murdered, but he was neglected to the point of causing his death.
Francis has said that he doesn't think he'll live very long, and that he hopes death doesn't hurt too much. I wondered, at the time, *why* he thinks that.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, hopefully it's nothing more sinister than the perfectly natural thoughts of a man who is ageing, and knows that (in the normal course of events) his death is not that far off.
Why, I echo those thoughts myself, most days!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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andras
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# 2065
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Posted
It's been widely reported that he eats in one of the Vatican cafeterias rather than having food personally prepared for him, and that this is at least partly out of concern for his safety.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Sadly, the long and often violent history of the Papacy means that maybe he's just being sensible.
It is, of course, horrifying to think that there may well be malefactors bent on eliminating such a gentle and spiritual man, for various reasons which seem good to them, but such is our fallen human nature.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
It's been widely reported that he eats in one of the Vatican cafeterias rather than having food personally prepared for him, and that this is at least partly out of concern for his safety.
I believe that's also why he lives where he does. There can be greater safety in numbers than alone in a palazzo.
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I'm not dead yet.
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
It's been widely reported that he eats in one of the Vatican cafeterias rather than having food personally prepared for him, and that this is at least partly out of concern for his safety.
Where has this been reported?
I don't doubt that the Holy Father requires intense security like any other head of state. But the idea that there is a rad-trad plot out to assassinate him seems a bit Dan Brown-ish to me.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Where has this been reported?
It's been reported here. The story's a little old, but it's what I could find in a quick DuckDuckGo.com search about his living and dining habits.
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I'm not dead yet.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Where has this been reported?
It's been reported here. The story's a little old, but it's what I could find in a quick DuckDuckGo.com search about his living and dining habits.
Ummmm, that only seems to state that he prefers to live with a certain austerity rather than luxury. It does not suggest (as far as I can see) that he does so out of fear of being poisoned. It is the same attitude that led to him making rooms available for refugees--he really really doesn't think it appropriate to live in luxury while others are starving. It has nothing to do with a fear of being assassinated. He is doing it out of faith--the fiend!!!!
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
So, then:Where do bears shit?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
I shall dig more deeply next time.
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I'm not dead yet.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, then:Where do bears shit?
Check the cartoon near the bottom of the page (Lion Brand Yarn).
BTW, some people playfully rearrange the joke you mentioned, changing who does what...
![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
This is the first filial correction addressed to a reigning Pontiff since Pope John XXII was reproved in 1333 for saying that those who died in grace do not see God face-to-face until the Last Judgment, where Catholic belief holds that those who die in the faith do indeed immediately meet with God.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, then:Where do bears shit?
You need to explain that one. It's lost on me.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, then:Where do bears shit?
You need to explain that one. It's lost on me.
There are retorts used when a person questions one’s veracity or accuracy.
Person A: ‘Is that true?’
Person B: ‘Is the Pope Catholic?’
Or alternately, ‘Does a bear shit in the woods?’
Since this thread questions the first, I wondered if this has implications for the second.
To explain Golden Key’s reply, sometimes the humourist will mix the two, for example,’Is a bear Catholic?’
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...To explain Golden Key’s reply, sometimes the humourist will mix the two, for example,’Is a bear Catholic?’
Alternately, one may hear, "Does the Pope shit in the woods?"
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I'm not dead yet.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Does the Pope shit?
Surely he must be above such things ...
Well yes. Being beneath it would surely be extremely unpleasant.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, then:Where do bears shit?
You need to explain that one. It's lost on me.
There are retorts used when a person questions one’s veracity or accuracy.
Person A: ‘Is that true?’
Person B: ‘Is the Pope Catholic?’
Or alternately, ‘Does a bear shit in the woods?’
Since this thread questions the first, I wondered if this has implications for the second.
To explain Golden Key’s reply, sometimes the humourist will mix the two, for example,’Is a bear Catholic?’
I've heard the first version of the question many times. I've never heard the second. Thank you.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
There was a time when "Is the Pope Polish?" was a possible response, until it became unfunny with the advent of Karol Woytila.
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It's Not That Simple
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
There was a time when "Is the Pope Polish?" was a possible response, until it became unfunny with the advent of Karol Woytila.
I used to hear "Is the Pope Italian?" when I lived in Chicago, where one's ethnicity is of utmost importance. It did become "Is the Pope Polish?" with the advent of JP2.
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I'm not dead yet.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Even more shocking, of course, is the fact that Luther was (once) a ROMAN CATHOLIC!!!!!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
And indeed Luther died also believing himself to be a Catholic.
I think it is fanciful to suspect that pope John Paul I may have been poisoned and equally fanciful to think that pope Francis eats with others from fear of being poisoned by the Vatican staff. Were he to be afraid of being killed he would not ride around (as he did today in Bologna) in an opensided papamobile.
I was privileged to be in Rome on 'the day of the four popes' the day of the canonisation of pope John XXIII as well as John Paul II,carried out by Francis in the presence of Emeritus pope Benedict.
So great were the crowds present that after the ceremony the pope greeted the faithful in St Peter's Square from an open topped papamobile AND also drove right down the Via della Conciliazione to greet the many thousands who had been unable to gain access to St Peter's Square.
He may well be aware of possible dangers,but I think he will take all these things in his stride.
Whilst I applaud and support all that the pope does,it is only right that those who see the pope principally as the Guardian of the Deposit of Faith should put questions to him..
Someone once said that the Church is like a bottle of wine. The wine is,of course the Spirit which gives life,but without the bottle to contain it,the spirit is dissipated and often lost.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
The Pope is (gasp) a Lutheran?
Perhaps 'protestantisation' is the future of the RCC in the West: tolerant, pluralistic and admired for its heritage rather than its (declining) place in people's lives.
I'm not sure what protestantisation means in the global south, which is where the RCC's numerical strength lies. Maybe it equates more with a Pentecostal rather than a Lutheran drift. But the Pope's pastoral emphasis (and the strategic focus of the RCC in general) seems aimed in a Western direction.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Even more shocking, of course, is the fact that Luther was (once) a ROMAN CATHOLIC!!!!!
IJ
Doesn’t work though.
Person A: Is that true?
Person B: Was Luther once Catholic?
Person A: Well, that depends on your definition and his mindset. One could argue that he was never a true Catholic. One could argue that he was always Catholic as his intention was never to separate. And one could argue that his fighting with Superman was a more important issue than his religious affiliation.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Point taken!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
So,Svitlana, is this your definition of Protestantism, 'something tolerant,pluralistic and admired for its heritage rather than it (declining) influence on people's lives ?'
I think that there are reckoned to be about 24 thousand variants of Protestant belief so it must certainly be pluralistic. Whether all Protestants are tolerant is another matter.
Amongst the billion or so people who claim to have some connection with the Catholic faith there must indeed be some who are tolerant,pluralistic and who admire the Church for its heritage rather than for its influence (declining or otherwise) on their lives.
To my mind it was ever so.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Forthview
The paragraph from which you took that quote referred to the West, and it was mainstream Western Protestantism that I was thinking of.
It's hardly news that mainstream Western Protestant denominations are generally becoming more tolerant, or that they having a declining place in people's lives. They also tolerate a plurality of beliefs and behaviours among both clergy and laity, although of course the mileage varies.
There are other kinds of Protestant in the West, but it's largely in other parts of the globe that these are having a significant impact, as I implied. Pentecostalism is the most obvious example.
I understand that the RCC in some places has absorbed some of the effervescence of Pentecostal worship. Does this have any significance for RCC theology, I wonder?
[ 02. October 2017, 18:37: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Thank you,Svitlana, for your explanation. Of course many Protestants are tolerant and understanding of others, just as are many Catholics.
Of course some Protestants, also in what you call the West are narrowminded and suspicious of others, just as are some Catholics.
Yes, I agree with you that the Church(es) in general have a declining role in many Western countries in determining what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in public life in what would have been called 'Christian countries.
The Catholic Church has had much to learn from other Christian communities. It took 450 years after the Reformation for the Roman Church to opt for a vernacular liturgy, to opt for trying to make baptism a more parochial event at the principal Sunday liturgy and to try to bridge the gap between the clerical and the lay members of the Church.
It took the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s to make the Church realise that she was not the 'Perfect Society' (in the world but not of the world),but rather to see herself as the 'Pilgrim People of God on their way towards eternity.' The vernacular liturgy made it possible for non-clerically ordained people to serve as Readers and Ministers of Communion ,things which have certainly happened here in Scotland also in the Presbyterian Church.
Though we sometimes like to think that there are many differences between the Christian
communities,there are also many similarities and that is what we have to try to build upon.
However above all we have to try to have faith in the goodness and mercy of God.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
As usual, a very generous approach from Forthview, a generosity sadly lacking in the rebuke delivered to Francis. I noticed quite a few parish priests as signatories to that by the way, and am glad to say that the views it espouses are very uncommon around here.
To pick up and extend what Forthview says. It took rather less than 450 years for much of what Luther said to become the approach in Rome. How many bad Popes had there been in the 200 years before Luther, and how many since? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any from Paul IV onwards.
I'd read the reference to the West as being to the Church in the West, as opposed to the Eastern and Oriental Churches. Is that a wrong reading?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Living in an area where Catholics, Lutherans and Episcopalians have excellent working relationships on a local level, I find it amusing that insinuating the Pope is too " Lutheran" still carries perjorative weight in some circles.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It seems to depend on local circumstances.
In secularised communities where one particular church doesn't completely dominate in terms of numbers or culture, it's probably easier to see church leaders of other denominations as colleagues rather than competitors or interlopers. They pool together and share resources when the need arises.
In regions or indeed whole countries where you do get the dominance of one group it's probably harder to take the same relaxed approach. Especially if there's a fear of 'sheep-stealing'. A growing (or over-) supply of different kinds of churches in one setting might create similar fears.
[ 11. October 2017, 22:26: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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