quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Maybe, weirdly, they want to let Catalonia go, but feel they have to save face??

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
No GK. Keep to simple, unenlightened narratives. That's what we do best.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't know what anyone *should* do. But when I heard on the radio that Catalonia is the wealthiest region of Spain, I figured that was why the Spanish gov't reacted so strongly.

Evidently, the region used to have a fair bit of autonomy, given by the courts--but most of that was later taken away.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
No GK. Keep to simple, unenlightened narratives. That's what we do best.

---

Go on then, enlighten me. What's the complicated narrative?

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quote:

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Originally posted by que sais-je:
I was talking with a friend who has a son living in Catalonia. She's says her son's family (all Catalan) are more angry at being told they can't have a vote than concerned about Catalan independence.

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quote:

---

Their view is that Catalan provides 25% of the Spanish GRP (see
various statistic on wikipedia) but get a tiny fraction of government payouts. Which, from the National Government's point of view, makes sense - taxing the rich to support the poor.

Is independence like a marriage divorce? If one partner wants to leave on what grounds should their request be refused?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
"they want to let Catalonia go, but feel they have to save face". Breaks Occam's razor a couple of ways.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

We've seen prominent lefty politicians talking about bias in the BBC because of claims that the result of the referendum might be "taken with a pinch of salt". But then, isn't this a fair comment?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Sheer incompetence. Wouldn't have happened in Franco's day.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I fully support Catalan independence. If they don't want to be a part of Spain any more then why the hell should anyone else be able to tell them they have to stay?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I fully support Catalan independence. If they don't want to be a part of Spain any more then why the hell should anyone else be able to tell them they have to stay?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I fully support Catalan independence. If they don't want to be a part of Spain any more then why the hell should anyone else be able to tell them they have to stay?

---

There must be some limits. Otherwise how are you going to deal with the person who insists he should be allowed to declare his house an independent state?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by american piskie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I fully support Catalan independence. If they don't want to be a part of Spain any more then why the hell should anyone else be able to tell them they have to stay?

---

One reason: because in the post-dictatorship settlement they overwhelmingly supported the adoption of the Constitution which does not permit secession. I think a lot of moderate Spaniards are saying "above almost all things we value being a state governed by law, and so if you think this law ought to be changed we must all vote on it". I think that in Spain, so recently a dictatorship, and with much laundering of dirty laundry still to do, it's not surprising that so many see any drift into illegality as dangerous.

(All this doesn't mean I don't think Rajoy and team have been spectacularly inept.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by american piskie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I fully support Catalan independence. If they don't want to be a part of Spain any more then why the hell should anyone else be able to tell them they have to stay?

---

One reason: because in the post-dictatorship settlement they overwhelmingly supported the adoption of the Constitution which does not permit secession. I think a lot of moderate Spaniards are saying "above almost all things we value being a state governed by law, and so if you think this law ought to be changed we must all vote on it". I think that in Spain, so recently a dictatorship, and with much laundering of dirty laundry still to do, it's not surprising that so many see any drift into illegality as dangerous.

(All this doesn't mean I don't think Rajoy and team have been spectacularly inept.)

---

That's revolutions for you. The constitution be damned. That was then, this is now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
There's no comparison.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Sheer incompetence. Wouldn't have happened in Franco's day.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Franco was a bad man who killed thousands. Catalonia has wanted independence since at least the 18th century and probably since the Reconquista. Spain has worries about Basque independence only recently calmed down. Catalania's melody plays in harmony.

Governance from the dominant core is a problem? Would federalism ie regional control in a devolved power model, where provinces may control many things, work better in some of these countries? But by the time they're voting it is far too late.
*snip*

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It's not for me to tell other people whether they should be "allowed" to be independent. But I think it is going to be difficult to continue having an EU if the member countries become increasingly fragmented and others are consequently left poorer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The 1978 Constitution (one of the 7 authors was Miquel Roca i Junyent from the Pacte Democràtic per Catalunya) which was endorsed by 91% by referendum, provides for that. There were further extensions of autonomy but the Parti Popular under Rajoy was unhappy with that and withdrew them in (IIRC) 2012. Rajoy's unwillingness to negotiate further has not helped.

Spain is a bit more fragile as a state than many might assume, and a particularly nasty civil war is just now passing from living memory. The period of fascist oppression is still within memory, and was a reality, rather than a rhetorical exclamation. I have long been uncomfortable (not that he cares for my discomfort or, perhaps, anyone's) with Rajoy's negative and unproductive stance with respect to the Catalans; he seems to want to close off discussion and movement and expects that heavihandedness will "solve the problem."

Spaniards generally, and the Catalans are no exception, have come to value the ballot and democratic expression, and the symbolism of interfering with and suppressing a referendum will have longterm consequences.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
I think that Catalan independence is a bad idea. Were I Catalan, I would probably think the same. However, to be told that I cannot vote on the question would get me out on the street with my fellow citizens.

I think that in the Nationalist mindset there lies the unacknowledged anxiety about Spain's fractious regionalism. (Golden Key, I think that you're attributing far too much subtlety to Rajoy and his government.) Were Catalonia to go, how long before the Basque lands (also net contributors to the national fisc)? And then Galicia (which makes much of its unique, celtically-rooted culture, and has its own language), then Aragon, Andalucia, Asturias? Really, the sensible answer would be a federalism beneath the monarchy.

---

quote:

---

I doubt, in light of the past weekend, that ETA has failed to take note of the Guardia Civil's behaviour. (Explains the black masks I saw on the GC as they took away ballot boxes.) I certainly didn't fail to notice. I also didn't fail to notice the Nationalist demonstration in Madrid, where given were the fascist salute and rousing choruses of Cara al Sol.*

*Facing the Sun, fascist Civil War song (of the

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Which is rather what Russia would like, right? Hence the allegations that they are throwing their foreign propaganda wing behind the Independence movement.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Very helpful. Thanks.

Additional things I wonder is the EU in the situation. How much does it matter if regions are independent if they are all within the EU? Then also I think of ethnic Russians in the Baltic countries and Ukraine

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Which is rather what Russia would like, right? Hence the allegations that they are throwing their foreign propaganda wing behind the Independence movement.

---

I hadn't heard that. But I'm not sure what to think about anything much any more - given what we know (or think we know) about various aspects of Russian influence and interference, it seems entirely possible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
Germany, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Croatia all gained their current form within the lifetime of the EU - and largely on ethnic nationalist grounds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I fully support Catalan independence. If they don't want to be a part of Spain any more then why the hell should anyone else be able to tell them they have to stay?

---

There must be some limits. Otherwise how are you going to deal with the person who insists he should be allowed to declare his house an independent state?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You mean apart from withdrawing his permission to work in the country he just left and refusing him access to that country’s facilities such as health, education, power, water, rubbish collection, etc? You could even declare that without a visa arrangement he’s not allowed to cross the border (i.e. leave his house).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
I think that Catalan independence is a bad idea.

---

quote:

---

Were Catalonia to go, how long before the Basque lands (also net contributors to the national fisc)? And then Galicia (which makes much of its unique, celtically-rooted culture, and has its own language), then Aragon, Andalucia, Asturias?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The problem being? Why not have six or seven independent nations rather than one, if that what the people of those areas want?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You can't have people in a country who arbitrarily declare themselves to be outside the auspices of the law.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Because why should individuals, or groups of individuals, be allowed to do something which adversely affects someone else?

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quote:

---

If this was a legal agreement in another walk of life, would we say it was fair for one side to simple state that they're walking away?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You mean apart from withdrawing his permission to work in the country he just left and refusing him access to that country’s facilities such as health, education, power, water, rubbish collection, etc? You could even declare that without a visa arrangement he’s not allowed to cross the border (i.e. leave his house).

---

I'd have thought the simplest solution, as Martin suggests above, is to not let him do it.

You can't have people in a country who arbitrarily declare themselves to be outside the auspices of the law.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What's a "real law" though? I suspect "declaring your house to be in a different country" is in-and-of-itself breaking quite a few laws.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What's a "real law" though? I suspect "declaring your house to be in a different country" is in-and-of-itself breaking quite a few laws.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not saying that Independence is bad. I'm just saying it isn't always a moral good. One example being that an individual cannot simply declare that he is now living in his own country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
But if we're going to insist that there has to be some kind of minimal threshold for statehood, and that a community has to have a recognisable cultural identity before it's allowed to be an independent state - then I'd have thought that if, say, Estonia or Slovakia pass that test, then Catalonia certainly qualifies too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
May I clarify something? A nation is a group of people with (usually) cultural values, language and heritage in common. Second, not all nations are countries, and nor can and should they be. Hence the French and English in Canada, and the host of First Nations (indigenous peoples). Which makes it quite a mess a lot of the time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
I think that Catalan independence is a bad idea.

---

OK, but why?

quote:

---

Were Catalonia to go, how long before the Basque lands (also net contributors to the national fisc)? And then Galicia (which makes much of its unique, celtically-rooted culture, and has its own language), then Aragon, Andalucia, Asturias?

---

The problem being? Why not have six or seven independent nations rather than one, if that what the people of those areas want?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:


Now, the first question. I think that economically Catalonia is better off within Spain, until the EU realises that the "small states", all of which want to be in the EU, that nothing will change. Scotland, Catalonia, recognise that their viability lies within the EU.

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quote:

---

The EU should not encourage dissolution of members, but should make clear that new entities emerging from them would not be excluded, as successor states; In which case, as long as Catalonia agreed to the pre-existing agreements, admission to the EU would be a formality.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

Apparently, Catalans are split fairly evenly on independence

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

Basically, the Spanish government cocked-up big time (they must be giving our own Tory government a run for the incompetence prize). A simple "it's a meaningless opinion poll, we won't recognise the result" would have a) likely resulted in at best a very small majority in favour of independence, and b) if there was a majority then the government could flex muscles (including the Constitution making secession illegal) to stop it happening. As it is they're faced with an apparent large majority of Catalans in favour of independence, which isn't as easy to dismiss, and an almost universal condemnation of suppression of the vote.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Now, the first question. I think that economically Catalonia is better off within Spain,

---

quote:

---

until the EU realises that the "small states", all of which want to be in the EU, that nothing will change. Scotland, Catalonia, recognise that their viability lies within the EU.

---

quote:

---

The EU should not encourage dissolution of members,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

The EU should not encourage dissolution of members,

---

I don't see why the EU should take a position one way or the other on this issue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
..but not much effort.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Now where have I heard someone else saying that making an adjustment to the EU wouldn't require much effort? Oh yes, Brexit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Not really the same thing. Another country saying "we want in to the same arrangements as all these countries" is straightforward, at least in principle. One saying "we want a specially-crafted trade deal because we don't like your normal terms" is more complicated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Now, the first question. I think that economically Catalonia is better off within Spain,

---

As they are net contributors to the Spanish economy (the Spanish "cash cow", as Enoch put it) I would suggest otherwise.

quote:

---

until the EU realises that the "small states", all of which want to be in the EU, that nothing will change. Scotland, Catalonia, recognise that their viability lies within the EU.

---

I'm not quite sure I can successfully parse what you're saying here. Could you clarify?

quote:

---

The EU should not encourage dissolution of members,

---

I don't see why the EU should take a position one way or the other on this issue

---

Going in order:

1) The economic health of a region is not simply a +/- as to whether it receives from or pays to the centre, although it is conceptually simple issue for public consumption. For instance, one important factor is the integration of that region into the whole. To what degree would Catalonia's connections to external markets (within Spain and without) be disrupted? Would a potential reduction in the value of exports be greater than the net payout to Madrid? (Even that example is more complicated than what I'm describing.) Until a clear economic plan is in place, Catalonia is better off biding its time.

2) I'm referring to the EU's distaste for the acceptance of regions of member states as separate entities. It's not a question of the economics so much as an effort not to offend the sensibilities of member states dealing with their internal regional issues. The structural adjustments involved in accepting an independent Catalonia and a reduced Spain would be "fixing" (and, for Spain, psychological), not conceptual. For new, small states, given the size of populations and economies, their respective viability is pretty much contingent on immediate acceptance into the EU: ready-made markets, various subsidies, etc.

3) The EU has taken a position on this, that it supports the current integrity of member states. Also, Valcarcel has taken the rather strident position that the referendum was an attempted coup.
 

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Posted by wabale (# 18715) on :
 
“I have the most evil memories of Spain, but I have very few bad memories of Spaniards.” ― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia.

I’m not sure what I think about Catalonian independence, but I do think the world needs to think hard about what ‘nationality’ does to people. For example, we kill an awful lot of people in its name, as we remind ourselves in November.

Many historians, especially Marxist ones, have put the concept of nations and nationality under the microscope. In 1700 most French people didn’t speak French (20% of the population still didn’t in 1863) and most Italians didn’t speak Italian. When you consider that Western European nations provided the modern model for the state, you realise nations are fragile creations for all their apparently awesome power. They are particularly fragile in Africa, precisely because of their artificiality. Or do ideas like this make a complicated world even more complicated?

The default position of most governments in the world is therefore to support existing states, even when they misbehave. Could we do better? More federalism, and more provincialism, perhaps?
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
HM King Felipe VI is due to address the nation tonight, though I'm not sure at what hour.

Doubtless he will appeal for calm.

Meanwhile, what does the other part of Catalonia, over the (comparatively recent - 1659) border with France, think about the bid for independence?

My sister lives not far from Perpignan (Perpinya in Catalan):

https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpiny%C3%A0

...which page is, as you will see, in Catalan, that part of France being mildly bi-lingual (or even tri-lingual, with Occitan being spoken further along the coast).

IJ
 

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Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
What an absolute disaster.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
It seems that the King Does Not Approve (but no surprise there, surely...):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

As Martin says...



IJ
 

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Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :
 
I think the Spanish government is in a bit of a bind. There was a purported referendum in 2014, which the Spanish constitutional court declared unlawful on the basis that it contravened the constitution. In short, the highest court in Spain has declared that there cannot be a referendum on Catalan independence.

The Spanish government duly paid no attention to that referendum.

Now the Catalan government has come back and done it again.

I wonder if this deplorable behaviour by the Spanish authorities comes from concern that if they didn't at least try to prevent the referendum the Catalans would pull another stunt, such as declaring UDI, which the BBC is now reporting that the Catalan government intends to do.

As I understand it, granting the Catalans the legal power to hold a binding referendum (as opposed to a glorified and highly expensive opinion poll) is not in the power of the Catalan government or in the gift of the Spanish government or parliament. First, the Spanish constitution would have to be amended to allow it, and that would require a referendum in which the whole of Spain would get a vote.

What I'd like to know is whether the Catalan authorities have even formally asked for this to happen, or whether they have simply tubthumped and insisted that their political right to independence shouldn't be impeded by pesky things like laws - which incidentally ought to protect people from things like rubber bullets and police truncheons.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
If President Puigdemont and his government do declare UDI in the next few days, just how can the Madrid government react?

By sending in troops? God forbid...

IJ
 

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Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
If President Puigdemont and his government do declare UDI in the next few days, just how can the Madrid government react?

By sending in troops? God forbid...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
If President Puigdemont and his government do declare UDI in the next few days, just how can the Madrid government react?

By sending in troops? God forbid...

---

Indeed, It would be like Hungary 1956, Prague 1968, or the Spanish Civil War. Could it really come to that? The mind recoils at such horror.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
It sounds awful, but there is an important difference: it isn't clear that the majority of Catalans actually want independence. Whether that's so will only become clear over the next little while.

Anti-independence Catalans largely boycotted the two previous referenda, the second of which was actually an incitement to millions to take part in a mass contempt of court, which while not justifying the reaction from Madrid was provocative. Opinion polls have generally shown a majority against seceding from Spain.

So if the Catalan authorities are going to do something so unbelievably stupid and inflammatory as UDI there may well be millions of Catalans who may welcome the troops.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:


So if the Catalan authorities are going to do something so unbelievably stupid and inflammatory as UDI there may well be millions of Catalans who may welcome the troops.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada had a near-death experience,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
If President Puigdemont and his government do declare UDI in the next few days, just how can the Madrid government react?

By sending in troops? God forbid...

---

Indeed, It would be like Hungary 1956, Prague 1968, or the Spanish Civil War. Could it really come to that? The mind recoils at such horror.

---

It sounds awful, but there is an important difference: it isn't clear that the majority of Catalans actually want independence. Whether that's so will only become clear over the next little while.

Anti-independence Catalans largely boycotted the two previous referenda, the second of which was actually an incitement to millions to take part in a mass contempt of court, which while not justifying the reaction from Madrid was provocative. Opinion polls have generally shown a majority against seceding from Spain.

So if the Catalan authorities are going to do something so unbelievably stupid and inflammatory as UDI there may well be millions of Catalans who may welcome the troops.

---

No they won't.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I suppose it's too much to expect Spain to accept the split, acknowledge Catalonia as a separate, independent, sovereign state (presumably allowing the EU to do likewise), and then to sit down with President Puigdemont to work out a sensible working arrangement.

Given that not all Catalans want independence, might it be possible for them to retain Spanish citizenship, along with their new Catalan citizenship?

I guess it simply isn't likely to be that simple...

IJ
 

---

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada had a near-death experience,

---

Canada wouldn't have died, it would just have got a bit smaller and gained a new neighbour.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

It's always difficult in these situations to distinguish plain idiocy, and deliberate policy - is Madrid deliberately being provocative?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

It's always difficult in these situations to distinguish plain idiocy, and deliberate policy - is Madrid deliberately being provocative?

---

Do you mean to ask whether Madrid is deliberately trying to get a response? Why would they want that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
No. But they will any way. Don't look for a rationale. Scratch a 40 year democracy and the fascism is there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada had a near-death experience,

---

Canada wouldn't have died, it would just have got a bit smaller and gained a new neighbour.

---

You haven't a clue about which you opine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is there any reasoning to suggest that either side is the equivalent of the Franco fascists and the other the non-fascists?

If so, which is which?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
One side is seeking a democratic vote to decide what should be done, the other is sending in the troops to ensure it gets its own way regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Seems pretty clear to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hey, you asked the question. And “carrying out actions with a superficial similarity to those carried out by fascists” seems to be enough to call certain other organisations fascist, so...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Fascism is an ideology that means certain things. It isn't simply about a state using plastic bullets - otherwise it might have been said that the British were fascists in NI.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada had a near-death experience,

---

Canada wouldn't have died, it would just have got a bit smaller and gained a new neighbour.

---

You haven't a clue about which you opine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I still don't get why it would have been an existential threat to the rest of the nation. Were the other provinces also champing at the bit to secede or something? Is Quebec the only thing preventing the nation's enemies from overrunning it?

Sure, there would have been change and uncertainty for a while. But change and uncertainty happen all the time in politics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.

---

In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I still don't get why it would have been an existential threat to the rest of the nation. Were the other provinces also champing at the bit to secede or something? Is Quebec the only thing preventing the nation's enemies from overrunning it?

Sure, there would have been change and uncertainty for a while. But change and uncertainty happen all the time in politics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.

---

In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
a) The departure of 1/4 or so of the Federal Cabinet
b) The loss of 25% of the federal Public Service, including the senior Public Service who would be critical in such times;

---

quote:

---

c) The complete loss of territorial integrity between Ontario and the West on one hand and the Atlantic Provinces on another.
d) A rump Canada in which one province Ontario would constitute nearly 50% of the population, and I can't see the other provinces submitting to a defacto Ontario dictatorship. Ungovernable, unstable and untenable.

---

quote:

---

Or as the erstwhile Eric Williams of Jamaica said of the abortive West Indies Federation: "One from Ten leaves nought." When Jamaica left, the federation collapsed. And so with Canada.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada had a near-death experience,

---

Canada wouldn't have died, it would just have got a bit smaller and gained a new neighbour.

---

You haven't a clue about which you opine.

---

If Quebec had seceded there would still have been quite a lot of Canada left. The nation would, therefore, still be alive.

The same would be true of the U.K. after a Scottish secession, and of Spain after a Catalan secession.

For that matter, the same is true of Ethiopia after Eritrea seceded and Indonesia after East Timor seceded. Both countries are still very much alive, just smaller and with new neighbours. So what’s the problem?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Those Caribbean islands are just fine as independent nations. Each one is free to govern itself as its people see fit rather than having to submit to some overarching system over which it has minimal control. Sounds good to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think if your national identity is dependent on other people, who aren't you, remaining part of your country when they don't want to be part of your country, then your national identity is not worth preserving.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.

---

In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.

---

Those of us whose insomnia have driven us to a review of the Spanish constitution realize that Felipe is a constitutional monarch, and all of his acts must be countersigned by a minister. He can only arbitrate if Rajoy agrees that he should. Given President Rajoy's open, imaginative, and flexible response to the issue...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you have a community in a city which is increasingly excluded from the majority culture, surely the thing to do is to make efforts to include them.

---

quote:

---

Of course, if one has promised concessions to get them to stay, as with Scotland, one then has to follow through with them. Because going back on that kind of thing makes everyone pissed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.

---

In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.

---

Those of us whose insomnia have driven us to a review of the Spanish constitution realize that Felipe is a constitutional monarch, and all of his acts must be countersigned by a minister. He can only arbitrate if Rajoy agrees that he should. Given President Rajoy's open, imaginative, and flexible response to the issue...

---

Yes but.

all that notwithstanding, there is a post Franco tradition of the King doing exactly that, regardless of what the constitution says. See death of Franco/transition to democracy, also the attempted coup in 1981.

I would say that if you'd read the last 40 years of Spanish history rather than the constitution you might see why a Catalan republican might expect the king to step in at this point and be even handed - without prejudice to their hopes for a republican future.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, FWIW, I rather got the impression that HM Felipe VI was somewhat out of his depth. As you say, Juan Carlos dealt with the 1981 affair quite well.

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:


Mr Cheesy, you also have drunk deeply of the well of separatism. Your depiction of the Quebecois as under the iron heel of the Anglo is straight-out PQ propaganda. Whatever the truth of that pre-1960s (and even then, the picture is more complex than that sort of binary relationship), Quebec has powers of which Scotland dreams. Evidence of our success in our dialogue is the notable lack of appetite for separatism in Quebec. And, to be frank, exhaustion has played no small part.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:


Mr Cheesy, you also have drunk deeply of the well of separatism. Your depiction of the Quebecois as under the iron heel of the Anglo is straight-out PQ propaganda. Whatever the truth of that pre-1960s (and even then, the picture is more complex than that sort of binary relationship), Quebec has powers of which Scotland dreams. Evidence of our success in our dialogue is the notable lack of appetite for separatism in Quebec. And, to be frank, exhaustion has played no small part.

---

I don't know how you got that from what I wrote.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

First, Ricardus, you're working on the assumption that the Quebecois are not Canadian, or are somehow external to that identity rather than integral to it, which is exactly what both the separatists and the hardcore anti-quebecois want you to believe. It's those of who embrace/wrestle with this complexity of multiple components in a single identity who are the creative instinct of the Canadian identity - and who consequently get it from both extremes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I suppose it's too much to expect Spain to accept the split, acknowledge Catalonia as a separate, independent, sovereign state (presumably allowing the EU to do likewise), and then to sit down with President Puigdemont to work out a sensible working arrangement.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

First, Ricardus, you're working on the assumption that the Quebecois are not Canadian, or are somehow external to that identity rather than integral to it, which is exactly what both the separatists and the hardcore anti-quebecois want you to believe. It's those of who embrace/wrestle with this complexity of multiple components in a single identity who are the creative instinct of the Canadian identity - and who consequently get it from both extremes.

---

FWIW I've been wondering all day if I should, ahem, 'clarify those remarks', as the politicians call it.

What I'm getting at is that if Canadian identity is conceived to be pluralistic and diverse, and if the Québécois no longer wish to be Canadian, then that pluralistic diversity was illusory, whether or not the Québécois do in fact separate. Which I suppose in fact supports SPK's comment that Québécois separation would mark the death of Canada.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

First, Ricardus, you're working on the assumption that the Quebecois are not Canadian, or are somehow external to that identity rather than integral to it, which is exactly what both the separatists and the hardcore anti-quebecois want you to believe. It's those of who embrace/wrestle with this complexity of multiple components in a single identity who are the creative instinct of the Canadian identity - and who consequently get it from both extremes.

---

FWIW I've been wondering all day if I should, ahem, 'clarify those remarks', as the politicians call it.

What I'm getting at is that if Canadian identity is conceived to be pluralistic and diverse, and if the Québécois no longer wish to be Canadian, then that pluralistic diversity was illusory, whether or not the Québécois do in fact separate. Which I suppose in fact supports SPK's comment that Québécois separation would mark the death of Canada.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Fuck them.
Love wins.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by que sais-je:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't know what anyone *should* do. But when I heard on the radio that Catalonia is the wealthiest region of Spain, I figured that was why the Spanish gov't reacted so strongly.

Evidently, the region used to have a fair bit of autonomy, given by the courts--but most of that was later taken away.

---

I was talking with a friend who has a son living in Catalonia. She's says her son's family (all Catalan) are more angry at being told they can't have a vote than concerned about Catalan independence.

Their view is that Catalan provides 25% of the Spanish GRP (see
various statistic on wikipedia) but get a tiny fraction of government payouts. Which, from the National Government's point of view, makes sense - taxing the rich to support the poor.

Is independence like a marriage divorce? If one partner wants to leave on what grounds should their request be refused?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Countries don't die when they split up, they die when people stop believing in them.

---

quote:

---

What does it mean to believe in a country?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
You overlook the importance of consent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Fuck them.
Love wins.

---

That goes together for you eh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
You overlook the importance of consent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
But why should a minority have the right to disrupt - sometimes repeatedly - the affairs of the entire state without the rest of its citizens having a say?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
You overlook the importance of consent.

---

If I've been such a bastard to my partner, abusing my order of magnitude power over them so that they want a divorce, my 'consent' is all part of the abuse, the delusion of power.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
But why should a minority have the right to disrupt - sometimes repeatedly - the affairs of the entire state without the rest of its citizens having a say?

---

Did you really just ask that question? History is replete with examples of minorities disrupting the affairs of the entire state because that's the only way for them to get a fair hearing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
But why should a minority have the right to disrupt - sometimes repeatedly - the affairs of the entire state without the rest of its citizens having a say?

---

Did you really just ask that question? History is replete with examples of minorities disrupting the affairs of the entire state because that's the only way for them to get a fair hearing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Your piling of ifs is so counterfactual that it's distractingly pointless

---

quote:

---

cease being so condescending.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But which electorate do you ask in an independence referendum? Only the areas which which to secede (Catalonia, Scotland); or the country as a whole (Span, Britain). To me there is no "right" answer to this conundrum as I'm sure losing a large chunk of a country must affect those who stay.

---

quote:

---

To me there is no "right" answer to this conundrum.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
Baptist Trafain

quote:

---

To me there is no "right" answer to this conundrum.

---

Couldn't agree more. One of the many problems associated with the right of national self-determination is in establishing "the self' which is to do the determining. in this context is the collective "self" Spain or Catalonia?

---

quote:

---

Or Spanish people (including those who live in Catalonia) or Catalans (who may live anywhere, but let's just stick to the rest of Spain for convenience).

---

quote:

---

We all agree on slow, overwhelming electorate majority

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Why do independence movements (often that we barely know the background and circumstances of) elicit our support so long as they aren't on our doorstep?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
Baptist Trafain

quote:

---

Or Spanish people (including those who live in Catalonia) or Catalans (who may live anywhere, but let's just stick to the rest of Spain for convenience).

---

OK, but you make an important point. Respecting the Scottish Referendum, Scots living in England (indeed, outside Scotland) were disfranchised, but Englishmen and other nationalities living in Scotland were included. In a finely-balanced referendum such exclusions and inclusions could be decisive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
We might also take the view that if Spain were to agree to a referendum on the issue that were Catalonia to vote for independence from Spain those parts of Catalonia bordering on Spain that voted against i.e. regarded themselves as politically Spanish, should remain within Spain.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
We might also take the view that if Spain were to agree to a referendum on the issue that were Catalonia to vote for independence from Spain those parts of Catalonia bordering on Spain that voted against i.e. regarded themselves as politically Spanish, should remain within Spain.

---

This is a fair point. There is no a priori reason to draw a succession line at a particular existing political boundary. It depends at some level on whether you view your country as a federation of states / provinces / whatever, or as a single country that is divided into convenient administrative regions. In the latter case, there's no reason at all to expect the successionist desire to align with a political boundary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
Respecting the Scottish Referendum, Scots living in England (indeed, outside Scotland) were disfranchised, but Englishmen and other nationalities living in Scotland were included. In a finely-balanced referendum such exclusions and inclusions could be decisive.

---

This was clearly an issue about civic nationalism, as opposed to ethnic nationalism. I thought that the SNP scored plus points on this.

---

quote:

---

It seems very weird to contemplate a vote for an entire country, from which a region wishes to secede.

---

quote:

---

That seems to contradict self-determination to me. It would mean that Scottish independence would be determined by English voters. Eh? That sounds nonsensical, or really, determination by someone else

---

]
That's because you have difficulty recognising that Scotland is part of a legal entity called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, whose nationality is British. Like any other nation the British claim a right to self-determination, which they exercise through their parliament. That collective self has a view as to its territorial rights. Within that territory there are some who reject their British identity, including Scottish nationalists, who assert a contrasting Scottish right to self-determination. Consequently, there is a conflict between two concepts of self-determination in relation to a particular piece of territory. They both uphold the principle of self-determination but are clearly in conflict because they hold incompatible views regarding "the collective self" that is doing the determining. In the UK case, the collective will of the British, expressed through its parliament, agreed to cede part of its territory, Scotland, should voters living there so wish, but do not regard it as a right of the Scottish parliament to hold a referendum on the matter without the say-so of the UK..

The international community, for quite sensible reasons, does not recognise the right of any group within an existing nation the right to secede simply because a regional majority claims it is another nation and wants independence. The problem with the concept of national self-determination is that it's by no means obvious what are the nations which have that right. Wait until Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran begin to respond to Kurdish claims for national self-determination.
 

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Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
They've been doing just that in their unenlightened way for a century.

Imagine!
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re Kurdish independence:

I think their various countries should let them go, if that's what the majority of Kurds want. AIUI, their countries don't want really want them, but won't let them leave. But letting them leave would save trouble, time, money, and lives on both sides.

And Kurds are already referring to themselves as Kurdistan.

I wonder if there are valuable natural resources in Kurdish territory? That might explain why the countries want to hold on to the land.

I hope we're not looking at a Turks vs. Armenians situation...which became genocide against the Armenians...

 

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Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
No we're not. But it shows how dangerous Balkanization is with unenlightened dominant cultures.
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
Independence movements are fine when it involves groups we sympathise with. How many Westerners were opposed to independence for Kosovo? South Sudan?

Why did Britain ever let USA get away with declaring independence all those years back? Well, because Britain couldn't prevent them, not because they saw the light. Unfortunately for people like the Kurds, in most cases independence is only viable if it can be backed by force.
 

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Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
I bet the civic nature of Scottish nationalism would be severely tested if it were proposed to redraw the boundaries of Scotland to allow areas contiguous with England to remain in Britain, should the inhabitants so desire, and/or to accommodate a decision of Shetlanders to remain outside an independent Scotland.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Independence movements are fine when it involves groups we sympathise with. How many Westerners were opposed to independence for Kosovo? South Sudan?

Why did Britain ever let USA get away with declaring independence all those years back? Well, because Britain couldn't prevent them, not because they saw the light. Unfortunately for people like the Kurds, in most cases independence is only viable if it can be backed by force.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Kurdish independence:

I think their various countries should let them go, if that's what the majority of Kurds want. AIUI, their countries don't want really want them, but won't let them leave. But letting them leave would save trouble, time, money, and lives on both sides.

And Kurds are already referring to themselves as Kurdistan.

I wonder if there are valuable natural resources in Kurdish territory? That might explain why the countries want to hold on to the land. *snip*

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
...
Then there's Algeria from France, Bangladesh from Pakistan, East Timor from Indonesia, various nations of Yugoslavia, Eritrea from Ethiopia, South Sudan from Sudan. All terribly violent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I don't fully understand all the nuances, but I think it is firmly in the 'ethnic' camp. One of the arguments that you hear time and time again is 'Sure even the language is different' which is a little like saying Munster Irish is different from Ulster Irish - which it is, but it's still Irish. ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
Is Catalonian nationalism predominantly civic or ethnic in character? If civic, what is to be gained by independence from Spain? The same question might be asked of civic nationalists in other liberal democracies.

---

quote:

---

Although Spanish and Catalan are quite closely related...

---

This was the point I was making, not whether or not they are still in regular use
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Re the language question, my own very subjective experience is that, being able to read and speak French fairly well, I find Catalan much easier to read than Spanish. Most of the touristy places in the area where my sister lives offer guide leaflets etc. in French or Catalan.

As for understanding spoken Catalan, well, I find it's a lot easier to comprehend after a carafe or two of the local vi negre (red wine - in Spanish vino tinto).

Sister and I once went to a presentation of troubadour songs etc. in the Catalan House of Culture in Perpignan.

It was most enjoyable, but the French chappie (from the City Council, I think) introducing it happily lapsed into French for our benefit (we were the only two non-Catalans present, I guess), explaining that he actually found Catalan difficult.....

Whatever comes of the present troubles, Catalonia (both north and south of the border) is a delightful part of Europe.

IJ
 

---

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :
 
Alan Cresswell

quote:

---

But, the argument for independence based on civic nationalism has a strong political and economic base..............

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Re the language question, my own very subjective experience is that, being able to read and speak French fairly well, I find Catalan much easier to read than Spanish. Most of the touristy places in the area where my sister lives offer guide leaflets etc. in French or Catalan.

As for understanding spoken Catalan, well, I find it's a lot easier to comprehend after a carafe or two of the local vi negre (red wine - in Spanish vino tinto).
*snip*

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
Alan Cresswell

quote:

---

But, the argument for independence based on civic nationalism has a strong political and economic base..............

---

So, the basis of civic nationalism is an assessment of economic economic advantage. In that case one would expect a region or regions anticipating a material advantage from independence to be more prone to civic nationalism than regions dependent on them.

---

quote:

---

Poorer regions would be expected to eschew civic nationalism, given their advantage in being subsidised by the richer ones, so to the outsider it is difficult see Welsh and Scottish nationalism as explained by the civic nationalist model, as they claim.

---

quote:

---

Furthermore, it's difficult to see why civic nationalism defined as a function of economic greed should be seen as more virtuous thnt ethnic nationalism, is it not?

---

quote:

---

But, modern nations are defined by "economic greed". Is it any worse to vote for a national government who promise to increase your standard of living, or to support independence which promises to increase standard of living? Whether that applies to you as an individual or the region as a whole.

---

quote:

---

Is it so unreasonable to think that the people who live within a defined region are better able to understand the needs of their own region than people living in different areas? And, better able to devise policies that better meet those needs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Enoch:

quote:

---

Although Spanish and Catalan are quite closely related...

---

This was the point I was making, not whether or not they are still in regular use

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
But why should a minority have the right to disrupt - sometimes repeatedly - the affairs of the entire state without the rest of its citizens having a say?

---

Did you really just ask that question? History is replete with examples of minorities disrupting the affairs of the entire state because that's the only way for them to get a fair hearing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As you say, there are two forms of nationalism. A nationalism that is defined by ethnicity is a thing of great horror, a xenophobic and racist evil, the first few steps down a road that leads to concentration camps and gas chambers. It's the sort of nationalism that the UK government has embraced in it's barking mad hostility to immigrants and pursuit of a disasterous Brexshit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
However, I think that in the absence of genuine oppression, it's a legitimate to argue that the entire state has sufficient interest in the matter for them to have enforceable rights too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
That does rather depend on what you class as "genuine oppression". Is denial of self-determination enough, or do the population have to be actually mistreated?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I think if there was a genuine case for oppression (for example, being treated like a second class citizen on the basis of race - perceived or otherwise - or of regional difference) then yes, I could understand that Catalonia might be somewhat justified in taking the route they have. As it is what have done is to pull a stunt that they hope will garner further support and feed into the narrative of both difference and oppression. What they should have done - seeing it's a peaceful revolution and all - is sent an elected party representing the independence concerns to petition Madrid for a change or addendum to the constitution to permit the vote. That currently has an inherent problem as far as I understand it as the various groupings representing the independence concern are deeply fractured and split (which in turn doesn't bode well for the future peace and stability of an independent Catalonia, but that's another story) so getting to that stage would take a long time, as would petitioning Madrid. They clearly see this stunt as enabling them with a certain impetus of groundswell to move the issue forward through illegal means. I find it profoundly difficult to have sympathy with that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
The reality is that the laws of the average developed, democratic country, do not give the right to any part of its territories to secede, and the reasons for this should hardly need explaining.

---

quote:

---

If self-determination means the right of any particular ethnic group to have its own state (as compared to the merely right of an existing political state not to be invaded by another) then it positively encourages ethnic ghettoisation.

---

quote:

---

Is it just me, or are you also picking up a flavour of 24th-29th April 1916? If so, the actions of the Madrid government at the moment could well have the same effect as the actions of the London government did then.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwesi:
The notion that the decision of a group of people in a particular territory can gain statehood by declaring themselves a nation explains very little about how states actually come into being, and were it so it would be a cause of great instability and conflict i.e. civil and international war.

---

quote:

---

The principle of national self-determination is one of the daftest ideas known to the modern international system

---

quote:

---

Applied to Europe at the end of WWI it created a justification for the territorial ambitions of HItler; and in the Middle East the ruinous consequences of the Balfour Declaration and presently the ambitions of the Kurds. Elsewhere it was used to justify the murderous partition of India, and applied to Africa would encourage the worst excesses of tribalism and political anarchy.

---

quote:

---

Why the claims of the Catalonians should be encouraged I fail to understand. The individuals who live there enjoy full civil liberties as citizens of Spain and the European Union, are economically the most prosperous region in Spain, and have their language and culture protected.

---

quote:

---

The price of secession would be to destabilise Spain and other parts of Western Europe. It is too high a price for Spain and the rest of the European continent to pay, however civic or civil or even democratic Catalonia's nationalism might claim to be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is Catalonia likely to become an independent state within the next couple of weeks, or not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As you say, there are two forms of nationalism. A nationalism that is defined by ethnicity is a thing of great horror, a xenophobic and racist evil, the first few steps down a road that leads to concentration camps and gas chambers. It's the sort of nationalism that the UK government has embraced in it's barking mad hostility to immigrants and pursuit of a disasterous Brexshit.

---

I suggest that nationalism in a country that is predominantly one ethnicity (say 83.95% for example) is always going to be ethnic. It may be ostensibly civic, but let's not kid ourselves that those civic values won't be determined by that overwhelming ethnic majority in their interests.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
There is no such thing as a nationalism which does not include some kind of ethnic component.
...
There are 'good' nationalist movements - Italian unification, Masaryk's Czechoslovakia - and bad ones - Milosevic and You Know Who, spring immediately to mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
President Puigdemont seems to have made a declaration of UDI

---

This phrase is as jarring to my mind as "PIN Number". The "D" of UDI stands for "Declaration", so the additional "declaration" is redundant.

Sorry. It's just been bugging me all week.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Apologies. ISWYM.



(Post in haste - repent at leisure!)

IJ
 

---

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
There is no such thing as a nationalism which does not include some kind of ethnic component.
...
There are 'good' nationalist movements - Italian unification, Masaryk's Czechoslovakia - and bad ones - Milosevic and You Know Who, spring immediately to mind.

---

But I wonder to what extent these were 'good' because they had to downplay the ethnic component by design or recast it to a historical past.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
The thing about nationalism is that it is basically a complaint that another bunch of people are stopping us from flourishing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
The thing about nationalism is that it is basically a complaint that another bunch of people are stopping us from flourishing.

---

Isn't that pretty much what all of politics is about, when you boil it down?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
Don't you just LOVE the way nothing works. 90% of 40% of the electorate doth not an independent Catalonia make.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

---

Kwesi: The principle of national self-determination is one of the daftest ideas known to the modern international system

Marvin Martian: Does that mean Britain can have the Empire back?
Kwesi: The principle of national self-determination is one of the daftest ideas known to the modern international system

Marvin Martian: Does that mean Britain can have the Empire back?
Kwesi: The principle of national self-determination is one of the daftest ideas known to the modern international system

Marvin Martian: Does that mean Britain can have the Empire back?

---

quote:

---

Kwesi: Why the claims of the Catalonians should be encouraged I fail to understand. The individuals who live there enjoy full civil liberties as citizens of Spain and the European Union, are economically the most prosperous region in Spain, and have their language and culture protected.

Martin Martian: The last point is debatable. And the rest basically amounts to saying that having the democratic right to choose how you will be governed doesn't matter as long as you're rich.

You might as well say that as long as you're well fed, given good housing and treated kindly it doesn't matter that you're a slave. Funny how some people think freedom is more important, isn't it.

---

quote:

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Kwesi The price of secession would be to destabilise Spain and other parts of Western Europe. It is too high a price for Spain and the rest of the European continent to pay, however civic or civil or even democratic Catalonia's nationalism might claim to be.

Marvin Martian: Translation: it's better for us if they don't get what they want, so we're not going to let them get it. Their thoughts on the matter are irrelevant.

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Originally posted by Kwesi:
Decolonisation differs from the Catalonian case in a number of important respects, and I would suggest largely supports my sceptical stance.
1.In a de-colonisation context the freedom of the nation was bound up with the granting of political emancipation to the colonial inhabitants. In Catalonia the inhabitants are free in terms of having full citizenship rights.

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2. The boundaries of African states at independence were largely pre-determined by the European powers at the Congress of Berlin and Treaty of Versailles after WWI, not by self-determination.

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3. The OAU and AU have existed to protect those colonial boundaries from attempts by ethnic groups to redraw them, of which siding with Nigeria in the Biafran War was an example. African leaders are opposed to self-determination for obvious and sensible reasons.

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4. The first generation of African Nationalist leaders were noted not as being Ghanaian, Nigerian, Tanzanian nationalists and so on, but as African Nationalists seeking (romantically?) the unity of the whole continent against the fragmentation of their inheritance and the threat of ethnic tribalism.

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Yes, because if Africa was one huge country there wouldn't be any ethnic tribalism there any more.

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The point I’m making is that the grievances are opaque.

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To suggest the Catalans are slaves is absurd

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Shhheee-it Alan!

52% of 72%. 37% of the electorate.

How can that be? What's quorate in a UK election/referendum?

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Kwesi: Applied to Europe at the end of WWI it created a justification for the territorial ambitions of HItler; and in the Middle East the ruinous consequences of the Balfour Declaration and presently the ambitions of the Kurds. Elsewhere it was used to justify the murderous partition of India, and applied to Africa would encourage the worst excesses of tribalism and political anarchy.

Marvin Martian: Also, you haven't proposed any alternative to self-determination. How do you think people should be governed?

Marvin Martian: You still haven't proposed a principle by which people should be governed if not self-determination, by the way.

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Kwesi: To suggest the Catalans are slaves is absurd.

Marvin Martian: I was making a point about freedom. Namely, that without it it doesn't matter how well your masters treat you or how many rights they give you.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Shhheee-it Alan!

52% of 72%. 37% of the electorate.

How can that be? What's quorate in a UK election/referendum?

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At the risk of repeating myself, nobody was bothered about that question before the result was announced.

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the point is that Catalan unionists are more likely to agree with the Spanish government's assessment that the referendum was illegal, and therefore not vote out of principle, and so no real conclusions can be drawn from the fact that 90% of the vote was for independence.

Whereas in the case of the EU referendum, even people who thought it was a silly idea didn't generally deny that Mr Cameron was acting within his rights in calling it.

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It was always about silencing the Tory right. Did he have a choice? Would UKIP been the tail wagging the dog in a hung parliament? 'Judge me on Europe.' I remember him saying years ago. We did.
 

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Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :
 
The government in Madrid has announced that it is preparing to suspend Catalonia's autonomy and will announce precisely to what degree in a list of measures on Saturday that will submitted to the Senate for approval.

The opposition Socialists have announced that together with the governing People's Party and the Citizens Party (3 of the 4 largest parties in the national Parliament), they have agreed, once Article 155 of the Constitution has been invoked suspending Catalonia's autonomy, to call for new regional elections.

This may seem necessary, given that a region is bent on independence, but is it wise to do so at this precise moment and in this way?

A majority of residents of Catalonia are opposed to independence, and I imagine even some supporters of independence are annoyed at how Puigdemont is going about it and worried about the prospect of businesses fleeing Catalonia to stay in the EU. However, given the sympathy that the independence movement has gained from the images of bloodied would-be voters being dragged from the polls, it is not at all guaranteed that an election would not return Puigdemont or his coalition (assuming it does not fall apart, which is a very real possibility) to power, at the very least as a minority government.

A lot has been said about the resentments among Catalans who remember the repression of their language under Franco. Not as much has been said outside Spain about how difficult politically it is for the government in Madrid, in particular when it is led by a conservative party, to be anything other than intransigent and draconian with separatists, precisely because of resentments dating back to the Civil War. Few people want a return to fascism, but many associate the Catalan and Basque separatists, who are not all left-wing, with the panoply of radical left-wing groups, many of which were quite strong in Catalonia, that together with more moderate Republicans fought Franco in the Civil War, many committing atrocities of their own (I in no way mean to say that they were morally equivalent to Franco, although I personally would not want to live under Stalinism, Trotskyism, or Anarcho-Syndicalism).

Many Spaniards at the time of the Civil War did not stand up against fascism because they worried that the radical left factions in the Republican forces would try to remake Spain if they won (I am not saying that I agree with them). Because Spain has not had as much of a healing and atoning process from the Civil War as the rest of Western Europe has had from World War II (partly because Spain emerged from fascism decades later than the rest of Western Europe), this fear of Spain being torn apart or remade is still alive - even among Socialists but particularly among Conservatives, and can lead to a very stalwart nationalism of the kind Rajoy needs to placate.

The People's Party itself, despite being a mainstream European Christian Democratic party, has never quite been as much of penitent for Spain's fascist past as its sister parties in Germany, Austria, and Italy have been (although things might be changing in Austria ), although I certainly wouldn't call it anti-democratic. I would definitely call it even more nationalistic than its counterparts on the center-right in the rest of Europe.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
BBC News today reports that the Catalan Parliament has declared independence:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

What next, I wonder?

Sr. Rajoy can hardly send in the troops....

IJ
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
More accurately (sorry), the Catalan Parliament has voted to declare independence, which is, I suppose, almost, but not quite, the same thing.

Even so, an historic moment.

IJ
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Who knows whether this is a truly historic moment, to rank alongside 1916, or something largely symbolic, or something disastrous, which will lead to conflict. I certainly don't.

The crowds outside will sing and dance joyfully, but what will Madrid do? I suppose they are now compelled to dissolve the Catalan parliament, to strip Catalan ministers of their powers, and so on.

I wish the Catalans well, and hope it is not a tragic mistake.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Indeed.

But if the Catalan MPs (well, those in favour of independence), along with President Puigdemont, simply refuse to budge, what then?

Political prisoners, storming of Parliament building, riots.....not a happy scenario, and one that is not exactly unknown in European history in comparatively recent times.



IJ
 

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Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Exactly. It's like the people explaining that Hillary won really because she won the popular vote. You can bet those people would not be conceding the election to Trump had the outcome been the other way around.

The time to argue about the fairness of a vote is before it, not afterwards. The Catalonia referendum was ruled unconstitutional and the turnout suggests (silent) majority support for that position.

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At the moment there are two governments for Catalonia, each claiming the right to govern and stating that the other is illegitimate. And, both have good reasons for that claim.

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4) Campaign on a platform of immediate independence and get reelected.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
What all this undoubtedly tells us is that the EU has done a terrible job of selling itself.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I agree with Kwesi that SPK's point 4) is by no means a given. Of course the media depicts huge demonstrations awash with Catalan flags but the unconstitutional referendum tells a different story - 90% of 43% is not a majority.

The EU was firm that if Scotland were to secede from an un-Brexited EU it would have had to apply for membership all over again and I think the same would apply for Catalonia.

What all this undoubtedly tells us is that the EU has done a terrible job of selling itself.

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Originally posted by Kwesi:
Alan Cresswell

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At the moment there are two governments for Catalonia, each claiming the right to govern and stating that the other is illegitimate. And, both have good reasons for that claim.

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Nope. You are mistaken. According to the Spanish Constitution the Catalan government has acted ultra vires, and the Spanish government has acted within the terms of the constitution in declaring the recent referendum as illegal and the declaration of independence equally against the law. The Spanish government has adopted the appropriate legal procedures to defend the integrity of the nation's constitution in taking over the regional administration. There is no dubiety
about this. The declaration of Catalonian independence, however welcome, is an act of rebellion and illegitimate.

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
It seems clear to me what the (former) Catalan Government's game is:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Carlos Puigdemont reminds me too much of David Cameron.

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What if............ ?

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
If all those bits of countries that were pushed together, and lost much of their culture and independence, started splitting off, what might the EU do? And the UN?

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
All of this happened in Ireland, didn't it? Sinn Fein had many MPs elected in 1918, and this was a defeat for the nationalist Irish Parliamentary Party.

Sinn Fein didn't take their seats in Westminster, obviously, and met in Dublin, as the first Dáil. This led to the revolutionary war of independence.

I believe quite a few bits of this were illegal, from the British point of view!

Apologies if I've got any details wrong. I don't know if MPs were called TDs then or not. Also I think quite a lot of Sinn Fein MPs were in prison.

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Originally posted by Kwesi:
Firstly, a significant proportion of the population does not want independence, not a sound foundation on which to sound the note of rebellion

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

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Originally posted by Kwesi:
Firstly, a significant proportion of the population does not want independence, not a sound foundation on which to sound the note of rebellion

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Which isn't relevant. In 1776 there was still a significant proportion of the population of North America who did not want independence from England, it didn't stop a Declaration of Independence and the formation of a new country.

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Kwesi: Firstly, a significant proportion of the population does not want independence, not a sound foundation on which to sound the note of rebellion

Alan Cresswell: Which isn't relevant. In 1776 there was still a significant proportion of the population of North America who did not want independence from England, it didn't stop a Declaration of Independence and the formation of a new country.

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No particular insight into the future directions in Catalonia, just an observation that practically nothing happens politically in which there isn't a significant proportion of the population who are in disagreement.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I still don't see what would be so wrong with Catalonia, Scotland, Prussia, Wallonia, Bavaria, Wales, Flanders, Brittany, Cornwall and so forth becoming separate countries if they so desire. Seriously, what's the downside?

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I still don't see what would be so wrong with Catalonia, Scotland, Prussia, Wallonia, Bavaria, Wales, Flanders, Brittany, Cornwall and so forth becoming separate countries if they so desire. Seriously, what's the downside?

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That a significant proportion of the population of Catalonia do not want independence is no more an argument against independence than the converse

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Originally posted by Kwesi:
Democracies are designed to take decisions through agreed procedures that minimise the necessity of other than legal force to implement them. The Catalan government has rejected the legitimacy of those democratic procedures as expressed in the Spanish constitution, which means it cannot enforce its will by law and must contemplate other measures if it is serious.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

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Originally posted by Kwesi:
Democracies are designed to take decisions through agreed procedures that minimise the necessity of other than legal force to implement them. The Catalan government has rejected the legitimacy of those democratic procedures as expressed in the Spanish constitution, which means it cannot enforce its will by law and must contemplate other measures if it is serious.

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OK, so what route to a "legal" referendum on independence were available to the Catalan government under the Spanish constitution? When the constitution expressly forbids independence, and the courts rule that therefore even a referendum is illegal, you have no option but to act outwith the constraints of the constitution. That is a rebellion.

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