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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Visiting the Holy Land(TM)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
A wide range of churches and organisations do trips to the Holy Land™.
People from traditional churches seem, by and large, to do such visits unaffected and unaffactedly. People from my neck of the woods, who ordinarily would turn up their noses at the idea of any "pilgrimage", seem to have a tendency to get themselves rebaptised in the Jordan and come back thinking that adding lots of Hebrew language and Jewish dances to Sunday morning worship somehow makes them more holy.
I've visited Ephesus and the alleged site of John the Evangelist's grave not far from there, driven a 4x4 to "Fair Havens" in Crete (quickly getting a grasp of why nobody except Paul wanted to winter there), and been to St Paul's Bay in Malta - because I was on holiday not far away. But the idea of an organised trip to the Holy Land™ leaves me cold.
What are shipmates' experiences of such trips, and/or views on them? Or any alternative ways of visiting? What was your motivation in going? How did it affect your spiritual journey? Is it a Hajj for Christians, or just a holiday option? How are these trips perceived locally?
[ 27. October 2017, 08:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Don't do it. There is nothing holy about the Holy Land - it pretty much tipped me over the edge (emotionally and religiously).
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Could you elaborate at all? I'm not looking for tourist advice, I'm looking to discuss the issues.
[ 27. October 2017, 08:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Well I suppose it is an individual thing Eutychus, but Christianity has never for me been about places or bits of stone - and so to go somewhere with such obvious pain, where injustice resides, where people are pawns in religious power games of other people was incredibly damaging to my faith.
I couldn't stomach seeing the sites in Jerusalem, just being in the Old City was bad enough. But I found the nativity church monstrous and the empty town square and workshops of Bethlehem full of dusty olive-wood nativity decorations depressing.
Hebron is a whole other horror of its own.
I don't think it was just about the whole invasion of the senses thing that you get in the Middle East - I've enjoyed visits to busy places in Egypt and Jordan. But somehow the collision of the noise, the religiosity, the fake tinselness felt oppressive in the "Holy Land".
There were some moments that are worth a visit. I saw a really interesting display of Christian caligraphy in the Lutheran church in Bethlehem. And if you can get beyond the surface tack, there is a lot to learn from listening to the people, in particular the Christians.
But if you want religious stones and sites, go somewhere else.
[ 27. October 2017, 08:16: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Which I suppose is to say that I'd go again but never to any of the religious sites on pilgrimage.
I've not been to Galilee to be fair, I have heard that it feels different there.
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arse
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Why the ™? The phrase isn't a trade mark or capable of being one. Or do the letters have another meaning I haven't picked up.
My experience is not as Mr Cheesy's. I found my pilgrimage both moving and interesting, though it was quite a long time ago (1980s). It also began to take me outside the assumption that Christianity is a faith for a certain sort of middle class English person and that one can evaluate fellow Christians from other traditions by how successfully they aspire to acquire the same assumptions.
In spite of all the tat, going inside the tomb in the Holy Sepulchre was one of the most significant events in my life of faith, and for the obvious reason - it is empty. It took me by surprise. That truth continues irrespective of all the noise and bustle.
I also really liked the place on the Sea of Galilee which is the traditional spot for the resurrection appearance (Simon Peter do you love me?).
At that date, we were also able to visit Jacob's Well, the site of the woman at the well.
The only site that for me really didn't work, was Nazareth, which its huge basilica like somewhere in western France, and the claim that the holy family lived in a hole in the ground.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Interesting. We've never been, but some good friends of ours have. Said Galilee was very worthwhile, Jerusalem not so much. Not completely sure of my ground, but I think many of the Jerusalem sites visited by tourists have a pretty tenuous connection with real events.
And, as mr cheesy points out, there is always the deeply divided current political background to consider.
So far as pilgrimages are concerned, I'd rather go to Holy Island (Lindisfarne) than the Holy Land. Lindisfarne is special, particularly when the causeway is closed.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So far as pilgrimages are concerned, I'd rather go to Holy Island (Lindisfarne) than the Holy Land. Lindisfarne is special, particularly when the causeway is closed.
Of course each to their own, but it disturbs me how often Jerusalem and Galilee become by default holy places of pilgrimage for Christians - when it seems to me that one of the distinctive things about Christianity is that it isn't a Theology of the Land and instead makes anywhere and everywhere it goes holy.
Of course I suppose there is a parallel tendency to make little Jerusalems out of Lindisfarne or Iona or Canterbury or wherever. But it seems to me that the whole movement from the 12 century was as much about the journey as the destination.
So it didn't really matter whether one was going to St Sebastian or wherever else there was pilgrimage routes.
To me, it just seems to miss the point to decide to go somewhere that "Jesus walked". Jesus walked everywhere. Get over it.
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
[x-post] quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Why the ™? The phrase isn't a trade mark or capable of being one.
The Holy Land is marketed as a "holy destination", hence my rather cynical (TM).
quote:
It also began to take me outside the assumption that Christianity is a faith for a certain sort of middle class English person and that one can evaluate fellow Christians from other traditions by how successfully they aspire to acquire the same assumptions.
That's great, but I would contend there are plenty of other places where that can happen. Is there anything intrinsically special about Israel in that respect?
quote:
going inside the tomb in the Holy Sepulchre was one of the most significant events in my life of faith, and for the obvious reason - it is empty. It took me by surprise.
Again, point taken, but as B62 hints, that would make sense to me if there was any certainty as to that being the empty tomb - which I don't think there is. quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So far as pilgrimages are concerned, I'd rather go to Holy Island (Lindisfarne) than the Holy Land. Lindisfarne is special, particularly when the causeway is closed.
Yet again, some sympathy with this - I've stayed a couple of nights on Lindisfarne, and it was certainly memorable. But... is the pilgrimage about the journey or the destination? And why is Lindisfarne "special"? I once spent a (very cold) night on an islet cut off at high tide, off St Mary's in the Isles of Scilly. That was "special" too.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 27. October 2017, 09:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
it seems to me that one of the distinctive things about Christianity is that it isn't a Theology of the Land and instead makes anywhere and everywhere it goes holy.
Yes. Absolutely; that's my concern precisely.
But it doesn't seem to "get" everybody the same way.
(And is it just possibly a shared cultural assumption of ours to think that way, just as Enoch had to get over his cultural assumptions...?)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
But it doesn't seem to "get" everybody the same way.
Nope, fair enough. I think I'm in quite a small minority thinking that places aren't sacred and that they are what one makes of them.
quote:
(And is it just possibly a shared cultural assumption of ours to think that way, just as Enoch had to get over his cultural assumptions...?)
Well that's hard to answer isn't it. I'm obviously influenced by my experiences and particular upbringing. But I don't think I've inherited a shared cultural assumption because I don't think this view is shared by the majority of my religious compatriots. To me a better explanation is that I've rejected other understandings and have accepted this one. But maybe that makes me blind to the reality of the assumptions I've unconsciously taken on.
Dunno.
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arse
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
People from my neck of the woods, who ordinarily would turn up their noses at the idea of any "pilgrimage", seem to have a tendency to get themselves rebaptised in the Jordan and come back thinking that adding lots of Hebrew language and Jewish dances to Sunday morning worship somehow makes them more holy.
I wonder if the people you mention are great travellers in general? If not, such a trip is going to have a greater emotional significance for them. And if you're talking about your Pentecostal acquaintances, they're already used to being publicly emotional about their religion, aren't they?
Also, it's possibly the case that people who can't express their religious credentials with regards to their theological learning or their loyalty to a prestigious religious institution have to use other means to assert their devotion.
IOW, it's psychological. Someone somewhere has probably researched the impact of such visits on different kinds of Christians.
Myself, I've never had much interest in going to the Holy Land (although I once toyed with the idea of staying at a kibbutz). I don't know what I'd get out of it spiritually. The concept of going on a pilgrimage has never inspired me very much.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
The best pilgrimage I ever undertook began at the Tabard Inn one April. The company was great and the stories they told........
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
My wife and I backpacked around Israel about forty years ago.
It was certainly interesting historically and religiously, but for anyone with a grain of scepticism it is difficult to get moved by unhesitatingly believing "this is the spot where Jesus was born/crucified/ resurrected", or even "this is the street on which Jesus walked" (maybe, but several metres below the present surface).
A woman we know told us that Jesus had appeared to her seven (count'em) times during her trip to Israel, which raises the question of whether he would provide an experience of himself to middle-class Western Christians who can afford a holiday in Israel, which is not available to poor Christians from the developing world who cannot.
The appalling RC, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox kitsch disfiguring "holy places" (the NT does not contain a single reference to sacred sites, relics or pilgrimages) made me more grateful than ever to be a low-church Protestant.
My most moving place in Israel (apart from Yad Vashem) was the graves of twenty year-old Australian soldiers under the eucalypts at Beersheba Commonwealth War Cemetery.
And for light relief, there was the tin shed on the waterfront at Jaffa on which someone (probably pissed off with importunate Christian tourists) had painted in huge letters THIS IS THE HOUSE OF SIMON THE TANNER.
Finally, there was the realisation of the vulnerability of this tiny, civilised country surrounded by nations containing influential lunatics and savages who are not Holocaust deniers, but Holocaust celebrators and would-be Holocaust re-creators.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
We holiday on Lindisfarne every September, I love it. Once the causeway is closed it is really quiet and there is a special quality to the light there.
Holy? Yes, in the true sense of the word ‘set apart’.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
A "civilised country" which settles people on other peoples' land, thereby giving any lunatics and savages all the ammunition they need.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So far as pilgrimages are concerned, I'd rather go to Holy Island (Lindisfarne) than the Holy Land. Lindisfarne is special, particularly when the causeway is closed.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
We holiday on Lindisfarne every September, I love it. Once the causeway is closed it is really quiet and there is a special quality to the light there.
Holy? Yes, in the true sense of the word ‘set apart’.
Tangent
I'm on sabbatical next year and these posts are really making me think hard about spending some of it on Lindisfarne...
/tangent
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy
I think I'm in quite a small minority thinking that places aren't sacred and that they are what one makes of them.
If I could see the Holy Land as Jesus saw it, it would be a tremendous experience. However, nature has changed the topology somewhat, and idiots have built shrines on all the pieces of ground that were important in Jesus' life. I remember seeing a picture of the church built on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, supposedly at the place where Jesus met his disciples after the resurrection. If I could see the shore as it was then, I would look and meditate for a long time. A building put up much later is not the same thing.
I have seen pictures of archaeological excavations which showed the way of life back then, and I would like to see these sites in real life. However, I have the impression that most planned tours don't show you this kind of thing.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
If I could see the Holy Land as Jesus saw it, it would be a tremendous experience. However, nature has changed the topology somewhat, and idiots have built shrines on all the pieces of ground that were important in Jesus' life. I remember seeing a picture of the church built on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, supposedly at the place where Jesus met his disciples after the resurrection. If I could see the shore as it was then, I would look and meditate for a long time. A building put up much later is not the same thing.
I have seen pictures of archaeological excavations which showed the way of life back then, and I would like to see these sites in real life. However, I have the impression that most planned tours don't show you this kind of thing.
Moo
Why? I just don't understand what you'd gain even if that was possible.
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arse
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Intellectually, I'm wholeheartedly in agreement with mr cheesy, emotionally, I'm not so sure. It's rather like the protestant tradition that all days should be regarded as equally important, so that the special celebration of certain events, including Christmas, Easter and Pentecost, let alone saints' days, should be eschewed. Human beings, ISTM, need to regenerate their spirits through special events, colour, light, music, dancing, imagined sorrow and mourning, and so on. For many people, though not for me, pilgrimages to the Holy Land have had such an impact, and I would not wish to deny the validity of their experience.
I'm intrigued by the references in several posts to pilgrimages within England, reflecting as it does a sentiment extending back to the Glastonbury legend, Blake's Jerusalem, and the patriotic piety of nonconformity, expressed in the somewhat sentimental hymn of Methodist minister J.T. East (1860-1937):
1. Wise men, seeking Jesus,
Travelled from afar,
Guided on their journey
By a beauteous star.
rest of hymn can be found here
[ 27. October 2017, 13:59: Message edited by: Eliab ]
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Intellectually, I'm wholeheartedly in agreement with mr cheesy, emotionally, I'm not so sure. It's rather like the protestant tradition that all days should be regarded as equally important, so that the special celebration of certain events, including Christmas, Easter and Pentecost, let alone saints' days, should be eschewed. Human beings, ISTM, need to regenerate their spirits through special events, colour, light, music, dancing, imagined sorrow and mourning, and so on. For many people, though not for me, pilgrimages to the Holy Land have had such an impact, and I would not wish to deny the validity of their experience.
To clarify: I'm not saying that it is invalid exactly. Of course if I believe all places can be holy then it stands to reason that the Holy Land can be holy.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that people have had spiritual experiences. I'm sure people have had similar experiences in Canterbury Cathedral - or even in the recycling centre in Canterbury or Canterbury Tescos. I'm even willing to say that it is more likely in the former than the latter.
No, what bothers me more is this whole notion that a visit to the Holy Land gives a person special spiritual insights and experiences that are so important that it is essential or desirable that all Christians do the same. So it becomes almost a Haj-lite obligation
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arse
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I didn't go to the Holy Land, I went to Israel and other parts of the Levant.
Granted this was some years ago in my youth, but I encountered groups of "pilgrims" and found some of them extremely trying.
As for people being "rebaptised" - it isn't possible. Once you've been baptised, thats it, you're "done". Anyone who goes for the idea of "re-baptism" clearly hasn't understood the whole notion of baptism.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
My parents went, back (I think) in the early 90s when no one was actively shooting at each other. They were also able to go to the Lebanon and Jordan.
Despite my dad's Jewish heritage (he did get to pray at the Western Wall), they found their sympathies very much with the Arab population, especially in Israel. When it all kicked off near the Temple Mount, they were forcibly dragged by an Arab shopkeeper into his booth before he lowered the shutters, and given tea and food until the tear gas outside dispersed. Their Arab drivers were, to a man, lovely people, and the daily aggressions they witnessed being handed out by the police and IDF to them turned my parents quite militant on the Arab-Israeli's behalf.
Honestly, while they found the tours of the religious sites interesting, that's not what they talked most about when they came back.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
I went to Israel as a theology student on a study tour in the late 1970s. This was very early on in the creation of settlements, and the obscene wall was not even in anyone's mind. There were checkpoints at urban boundaries and there was considerable freedom of movement and co-existence.
We did all the 'sites', each of which seemed to have at least one other possible location. Some of our party were 'rebaptised' in the Jordan.
I have never had any sense that the land is any more or less Holy than anywhere else. What struck me was the ordinariness of the place - hot, dusty, shabby, busy, rural, urban, desert, mountain, fertile plain, beach etc. One could easily imagine Bible stories taking place in front of one's eyes. Another powerful visit was to Yad Vashem, a must see for any visitor to Israel, yet probably missed by many Christian tours.
But the major impact was to encounter Palestinian and Israeli Arabs and begin to understand and have some empathy for their situation. From there I began to sense an interest in, even a love for the Arab world, and a sense of a calling to serve in some capacity. I returned twice more to work as a volunteer in the West Bank, and eventually ended up working in Saudi Arabia.
So although it wasn't a pilgrimage, I regard the first visit as a life changing 2 weeks. People sometimes ask if I would ever go back. I don't think I would. I couldn't bear to see the dividing walls and the increased commercialism of the religious sites.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
If I could see the Holy Land as Jesus saw it, it would be a tremendous experience.
Why? I just don't understand what you'd gain even if that was possible.
I discovered many years ago that I should not exclude any part of myself from my worship of God. I have a very strong imagination, and if I did not include it, it would interrupt my worship. Including it deepens my worship.
If it were possible to see the site where Jesus met his disciples, I would meditate on the scene--the total situation, and what it must have been like for each character involved. These thoughts would remain with me and be incorporated into my understanding.
I realize we're all different, and this is what works for me.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Eliab
Host
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
... expressed in the somewhat sentimental hymn of Methodist minister J.T. East (1860-1937):
1. Wise men, seeking Jesus,
Travelled from afar,
Guided on their journey
By a beauteous star.
rest of hymn can be found here
That would appear to be out of copyright in E&W, but there are other jurisdictions, and it's asking too much to expect the hosts to experts on all of them.
The usual policy here is not to quote the whole of a work, but only a short section and provide a link to the full text.
Eliab
Purgatory host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
I found Lindisfarne to be a 'thin place', mr cheesy. Hard to understand why. Why are we more aware of the omnipresence of God at some times and in some places? Maybe expectation has something to do with it?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
My son spent a year in Palestine just a few years ago for a Young Adults in Global Mission (YAGM) program. He also saw all the sites--heck, he lived at the sites. For instance, while tourist buses will visit Nazareth during the day, no one is allowed to stay overnight. But he was able to stay overnight a few times.
He has since been back two other times.
What was important to him was getting to know the people on a personal level.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have never been to the Middle East, and at this point in my life will probably never get there. There are other places I need to go, first. (Over on the Bucket List thread is a list.)
The most moving Christian site I have visited is the Catacombs of Domitilla in Rome. It is of course a burial site, miles of tunnels lined with tombs, but there's also a church in there, an ordinary but subterranean Catholic chapel dedicated to a couple of the saints allegedly buried there. They have regular services in several languages, and when you sit in one of the chairs and pray there's a powerful sense of history, of all the saints (150,000 burials) joining with you in the faith.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Some of my relatives did a quick holy land trip, as part of their cruise package, and found it surprisingly moving. They had been brought up from infancy on stories about the Sea of Galilee, Jerusalem, Mount of Olives etc, so they thought it was amazing to be seeing, with their own eyes, some of the sights Jesus would've looked upon, and wandering through some of the scenery he might've been familiar with.
I suppose when most of your formative Christian experience is based on growing up in 1940s Northern Ireland/UK, it might indeed be quite inspirational to really see the places where Jesus was. You know, it's not restricted to the Falls v. the Shankill! Current generations are sophisticated, used to travel, seeing exotic sights; not just in books or on TV. Maybe for older generations there was still something left of the privilege of seeing other countries, or inhabiting the spaces and places of significance to one's beliefs.
I don't feel any particular draw myself to visit Israel; though I am a bit curious from the point of view of it being where Jesus lived and travelled. But as for parish pilgrimages to there or anywhere, I'd say it's probably as much the journey that's important, in true Chaucerian style, as the arrival at the destination.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
some of the sights Jesus would've looked upon,
He would have seen one group of people oppressing another, so I suppose one can get the authentic experience.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm perfectly willing to accept that people have had spiritual experiences. I'm sure people have had similar experiences in Canterbury Cathedral - or even in the recycling centre in Canterbury or Canterbury Tescos. I'm even willing to say that it is more likely in the former than the latter.
I get that feeling in significant places such as historic places, beautiful places and great works of engineering. Including cathedrals, kivas, shrines, etc. So I get it. However, much of the Christian holy land is more akin to a general historical marker.
It is thought that that a possibly historic event occurred here, near here or at a place that resembles here. (Resembles in at least in Some of the references, many written after the event supposedly took place.)
quote:
No, what bothers me more is this whole notion that a visit to the Holy Land gives a person special spiritual insights and experiences that are so important that it is essential or desirable that all Christians do the same. So it becomes almost a Haj-lite obligation
So, from the people I know who've gone there....Not so much.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I've never been on such a trip, so have to defer to those shippies who have.
That, being said, one thought from the observations I've heard from friends who have: many/most "holy land" tours are designed to give you a lot of touristy churchy highlights (which of course can be quite meaningful) but also to give you a very positive view of Israel as well (one friend was hired by Israeli tourism to help with their promotional materials). But there are peacemaking groups that exist that design tours that give a more balanced perspective-- arranging trips within Palestinian occupied zones, seeing life on both sides of the wall, hearing from people with different experiences. Friends who have gone on these tours have found them to be quite challenging and helpful in shifting perspectives.
Just a thought-- again, I haven't experienced either so just passing along thoughts from friends.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I would love to see the biblical sites and intend to go there, though probably not on a church organised tour. Like Moo I would find it inspiring to see the places where Jesus was.
Not because I think it's a holy land. Some holy things happened there but that doesn't for me make it a holy land. I am not sure a place as large as a country can be holy. I want to go because for me the experience of being in a place where important things happened is a powerful one.
I have felt it at many historical sites, and the events of Jesus's life are more important to me than any of them.
There is a stanza of Byron, which I hope is short enough for me to quote
The mountains look on Marathon, and Marathon looks on the sea.
And musing there a while alone I dreamt that
Greece might yet be free.
For standing on the Persians' grave, I could not deem myself a slave
I don't have much in common with Byron, but I do share that experience of place prompting thought.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sipech
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# 16870
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Posted
My observation of those who've been is that such trips are, for the most part, holidays for fundamentalists. For about 6 months afterwards, you get the Ken Ham-like question "Well, have you been there?" in response to any discussion concerning the Middle East, followed by a short pontification that begins: "Well..."
I recall well a time when I had recently moved home and started at a new church that the pastor went for ~4month sabbatical to the Holy Land. When he came back, we had a month's worth of sermons based on his holiday snaps, with the occasional reference to geographical features that appeared in various parables. He put me off christianity to such an extent that I didn't darken the door of a church for 2 years after that.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I don't have much in common with Byron, but I do share that experience of place prompting thought.
As I said, I get this. However, I also get that people have the same experience holding a piece of the "True Cross", so...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I did my third ministry internship at St George's Cathedral in Jerusalem having being able to piggy-back on my seminary's twice annual trip to the Holy Land.
I would advise finding a tour company in Palestine that is owned or managed by Palestinian Christians. Several tour groups that are owned or managed by evangelicals tend to favor the Israeli-party line and would avoid encounter directly with the Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem or the West Bank.
Myself, I was more moved by the natural geography of the Land: especially the Sea of Galilee, the Judean Wilderness, and the Mountains rather than the particular churches and holy sites. It's best to not be overly literal of whether Jesus actually was crucified in the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher or whether he was raised at the Garden Tomb. We can never know for sure, but simply see these as places that pilgrims for generations have held sacred because our Lord might have walked there.
About the politics, know that no parcel of land in this green earth is ever immune from politics or human sin, not the Land of Palestine, nor Canada nor the United States, rather, I would try to find the Holy in the midst of chaos, in the midst of the disruption and in the midst of the tragedy.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I would try to find the Holy in the midst of chaos, in the midst of the disruption and in the midst of the tragedy.
My point, perhaps too obliquely made, is that Holy Land tourism functions to facilitate the current tragedies.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
A friend of mine went on an interfaith trip to Israel. The things that impressed him most were simply being able to see firsthand the topography of the land he'd been preaching about for years...speaking with Palestinian Christians and seeing ehat they experience every day...and their group' s Israeli Army minder, who sounded like someine out of an action movie. The Jesusy tourist traps, not so much.
Intetesting fact: There's an entire government office in Israel dedicated to helping pilgrims who becime emotionally overwhelmed by being there and have psychotic breakdowns.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Why are we more aware of the omnipresence of God at some times and in some places? Maybe expectation has something to do with it?
I hope expectation has more than a little to do with it; if some places are genuinely "thinner" than others, it would be profoundly unfair.
My perspective on this sort of thing was forever changed by a church-planting missionary who said he loved being in a grim megalopolis because he was surrounded by so many examples of the pinnacle of God's creation: humankind.
I also agree with the sentiment expressed by several here that wherever you are, it's good to have a really good idea of who your host/guide is. This is not always easy to achieve.
(A few days ago I benefited from the services of an informal taxi driver in Kiev. The journey was... interesting, and it's a good thing I'd allowed plenty of time before my plane left, but he turned out to be an excellent gateway into a true slice of Ukranian life).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Of the three faiths, it is the Christians who I found were the most boisterous and chaotic. The first time I was in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was Eastern Orthodox Holy Thursday. The Church was crowded with pilgrims, pushing and shouting as they were trying to touch the Holy Cross and grave. "Move it, I wanna touch Jesus!!!!"
Compare that to the reverent quiet at the Western Wall (well, except if you are there for Friday evening when it is a big party as the observent Jews welcome the new Sabbath) or the Muslims at the Al Aqsa Mosque which is blissfully quiet.
In fact, among the holy sites for Christians in Jerusalem, the one place of peace and quiet is the Garden Tomb, precisely because only Evangelicals visit there.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In fact, among the holy sites for Christians in Jerusalem, the one place of peace and quiet is the Garden Tomb, precisely because only Evangelicals visit there.
Holier than thou, sectarian nonsense must be a side affect of the Holy Land?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I was going to go a few years ago for a week after visiting Lebanon, but travelled around Lebanon for the whole time instead.
I am glad I didn't go. My faith was weak, but not as weak as now, and I thought I would get a spiritual boost, as if being there would reconvert me. Stupid, I know, but I was lost at that time and clutching on to anything.
I'd still like to go. To see the landscapes, and the sites that remain. To walk where He walked. Most probably as part of a small Christian group. An Orthodox priest leads various pilgrimages which seem to be high on spirituality and low on ticking off things, so that may be an option. Not expecting to be moved, but if I am, as I am presently by forests or waterfalls, I will take it.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think I'm in quite a small minority thinking that places aren't sacred and that they are what one makes of them.
That minority certainly includes me! All lands (and, incidentally, artefacts)that are called holy or sacred were there for billions of years (in one form or place or another) and it took humans, (after their evolution) another million or more years, to describe them so.
In the 1990s (when I still had some focal vision) a friend and I decided to do something completely different at Christmas and went to Eilat. While we were there, we booked quite a few trips of course, including an overnight trip to Jerusalem. The place itself was very interesting, but from an entirely historical point of view as far as I’m concerned. All feelings or experiences that people with religious beliefs have ar, I would assert, in the minds of those individuals.
A long day trip into the Negev (sp??) desert was most interesting – including the ride back from somewhere to somewhere on a camel!
To Eutychus: I would perhaps recommend visiting without a confirmation bias? You probably will not, but I hope you don't mind my mentioning it. a
Edited for missing 'e'.
[ 28. October 2017, 05:59: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Agree entirely with you Susan Doris that we are the ones who ascribe holiness or reverence to a place. Who or what else will? And it need not be typically religious.
I don't, as I detest sport, but friends treat certain stadiums as if they were holy places, speaking of them in hushed tones and with reverence. It is almost religious. In fact it may be. One friend even spoke of a "pilgrimage" to Lord's (does it have an apostrophe?). To him it was "holy" ground.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Buddha wrote:
quote:
Holier than thou, sectarian nonsense must be a side affect of the Holy Land?
'Twas ever thus.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Well, I’m in the minority of people that went to Jerusalem and loved it.
I hate ‘tours’, so wouldn’t have enjoyed that, but spent two days wandering round the old city. The highlights were probably the mount of Olives with the garden at Gethsemane; and Hezekiah’s tunnel. I also visited Jordan, and appreciated the visit to Bethany, the view of Israel that Moses had from the mountain (I’ve forgotten which mountain) - and, of course, Petra.
Like others, I don’t like the fact that there are churches built everywhere - I’d have enjoyed it more if it was more ‘as it was’. I too do not appreciate the stance of the Israeli government towards Palestinians.
I’m well-travelled, but the trip felt different and special. There’s nothing like seeing a place with your own eyes to give you a context. I grew up on the bible stories and it brought them to life afresh. This isn’t so much about ‘holy’ places, but a physical experience of the senses. Seeing the contrast of vegetation and life by the Jordan as it snakes through the dusty desert gave me a new understanding of Jesus saying ‘I am the water of life’.
Could probably say more, but, yeah, it was an unforgettable trip. But, I guess, I could say the same about most of the more interesting places I’ve travelled to.
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
some of the sights Jesus would've looked upon,
He would have seen one group of people oppressing another, so I suppose one can get the authentic experience.
I doubt they saw anything explicitly in that line, to be honest. It was too short a trip. However, my family being of relatively normal intelligence were probably just about able to figure out some of the ironies and similitudes of Israel then and Israel now; even while retaining a positive appreciation of their experience.
Of course, making it plain, I meant that they looked at the geographical sights Jesus perhaps had looked upon and felt that for them it was a special experience, having been brought up on stories about those places, and having understood those stories to be special to their faith narrative.
It's possible if they had seen 'one group oppressing another' it would've taken away any appreciation they had of the geographical nearness of walking where Jesus walked, or seeing the Sea of Galilee etc. But I doubt it.
It might've added to their appreciation, an ever deeper awareness of how fucked up the world still is, even despite Christ's mission on earth. But I think they probably knew that already.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476
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Posted
I enjoyed my trip, which was over 10 years ago.
For me, any travel to a place which is “written about in the history books” is special, since I grew up in a country with only a couple of centuries of written history, but spent my whole school life learning (longingly) about places with vastly older recorded stories, that I thought I might never get to see. I travel to learn, and to broaden my horizons, so I also enjoyed visiting (eg) Egypt, Jordan, Turkey and Morocco, but Israel did have an extra faith-related dimension for me.
I travelled with a British Brethren group. We stayed in an Arab-owned hotel in the Arab quarter of Jerusalem, and I found it very helpful (for my reading of the Bible since then) to get an idea of the geography of Jerusalem by walking around it. It was Passover and Easter, and the throngs of people from so many tribes and nations (like the -Indonesians?- marching up the Mount of Olives singing Hosanna), mostly on foot around the old city, felt timeless. The garden tomb could well have looked similar 2000 years ago.
Some sites, like Masada, and Yad Vashem, had historical rather than religious significance for me, and were also well worth the visit.
When we crossed through the newly built wall to Bethlehem we met Palestinian Christians and heard their horrible stories of oppression. We also met some Arab Christian bookshop owners (who knew their position was dangerous, since a Christian bookshop in Gaza had recently been attacked), and some other Christan Arabs who ran a charitable facility for disabled children (mostly Muslims from the camps – no other services were available for them, since parents could barely manage to educate their able-bodied children). The wall had cut off most opportunites for paid employment for those in Bethlehem, and the tourists were mostly staying away at the time, and the small business owners were desperate for our custom.
Because of frequent church-related exposure to photos of the Holy Land, some places we visited felt as if they were already familiar, but I was able to develop my 2D mental picture into a 3 dimensional experience of my own. The sight and sound of our group leader reading out the Sermon on the Mount as we sat on the grass overlooking the Sea of Galilee comes back to me every time I read the passage for myself. Same with the stories of Jesus “crossing over to the other side of the lake”. And by getting up well before breakfast one morning, I was able to enjoy some precious stillness by the edge of the water.
The small size and ordinariness of the land impressed me as a believer: God didn't choose to live in the midst of a stunning landscape when he came to earth (not that it was all dry and dusty – Banias was a good visual display of “streams of living water”), and the gospel stories that we have inherited all took place in a small radius of space and time, but the results of those events have rippled out across lands and centuries ever since.
It wasn't a perfect trip, or a perfect country. Yes there was tackiness and there were tourist traps. But overall, I'm so glad I went.
Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
In the 1990s (when I still had some focal vision) a friend and I decided to do something completely different at Christmas and went to Eilat. While we were there, we booked quite a few trips of course, including an overnight trip to Jerusalem. The place itself was very interesting, but from an entirely historical point of view as far as I’m concerned.
True, but the historical interest in this case seems to derive from its religious interest. After all, does Jerusalem have more non-religious history than anywhere else in the Middle East, or even just in Israel? Would you have gone there if you hadn't had a lifelong cultural awareness of the Judeo-Christian tradition that made the city famous?
As a non-monotheist one might just as well go to Egypt or Jordan for history - and not have to endure such a surplus of over-excited Christians as one's fellow tourists!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
]True, but the historical interest in this case seems to derive from its religious interest. After all, does Jerusalem have more non-religious history than anywhere else in the Middle East, or even just in Israel? Would you have gone there if you hadn't had a lifelong cultural awareness of the Judeo-Christian tradition that made the city famous?
Probably, because I love to travel anyway, but of course, its cultural associations are linked inseparably. The timing was to avoid all the Christmas fuss and bother.
I have always been very interested in Ancient Egypt too and a yer or two later had a week in Luxor. No mystical experiences () but a very, very interesting look at those ancient places. Just to stand where people have stood for thousands of years is just wonderful I think.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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