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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Zimbabwe
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Title of a book I have in mind.
"When theives fall out"
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
We aren't holding our breath, are we?
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
I'm surprised this hasn't been getting more prominent coverage. By the standards of African leaders, Mugabe was pretty high-profile on the global stage(of course, not always for positive reasons). We actually saw a fair bit of him in the Canadian news media in the 1980s.
Mind you, that was when Mulroney was leading the fight against apartheid in the Commonwealth, and Mugabe was on side. So that probably factored into his visibility. But even the land-grabs in the late 90s(which had no Canadian connections) got a fair bit of notice in the global media.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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John3000
Apprentice
# 18786
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Posted
John Sentamu might finally be able to replace his dog collar, it has been ten years. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 29 | From: England | Registered: May 2017
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'm surprised this hasn't been getting more prominent coverage. By the standards of African leaders, Mugabe was pretty high-profile on the global stage(of course, not always for positive reasons). We actually saw a fair bit of him in the Canadian news media in the 1980s.
Mind you, that was when Mulroney was leading the fight against apartheid in the Commonwealth, and Mugabe was on side. So that probably factored into his visibility. But even the land-grabs in the late 90s(which had no Canadian connections) got a fair bit of notice in the global media.
Not much coverage in Canada perhaps - pretty thorough here in the UK (maybe for obvious reasons). A lot of Radio 4's Today yesterday, ditto the PM programme and the 6 o'clock news. 4-6 pages in the Times yesterday - in "news" rather than "world news"; the same again plus an editorial today.
I don't know - I've got loads of connections with the place and am a frequent visitor. Part of me is appalled by the likely successor; part of me thinks "at least it's not Grace."
It's still my favourite country on earth, and it's still (below the carapace of the regime) full of great people at all levels. I've got my fingers crossed, because I've always got my fingers crossed for it. Currently past my 48th hour of being glued to social media.
In the meantime I've upped my monthly donations to ZANE.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Betjemaniac wrote:
quote:
Not much coverage in Canada perhaps - pretty thorough here in the UK (maybe for obvious reasons). A lot of Radio 4's Today yesterday, ditto the PM programme and the 6 o'clock news. 4-6 pages in the Times yesterday - in "news" rather than "world news"; the same again plus an editorial today.
Actually, I'm in the Republic Of Korea, and I was basing my impression largely on the coverage in the one print paper I read(where it was page 9, albeit with a large headline), plus a few international news sites I'd been looking at.
But the Globe and Mail(Canada's paper-of-record) is now giving it sizable coverage(including editorial), as is the CBC.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John3000:
John Sentamu might finally be able to replace his dog collar, it has been ten years.
Wow, I didn't know about that - had to google it.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Just the ZANU–PF old guard heading off a typist.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
As a general question - is a coup (or "military action to restore order and punish criminals" as the military likes to call it) ever a good thing? If so, when, and when is it not?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John3000:
John Sentamu might finally be able to replace his dog collar, it has been ten years.
Yes, I've wondering about that but have been too busy doing other things to post the question today.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
Are military coups ever a good thing?
In idealistic principle, No.
In this paradoxical, confused universe, and when the alternative is the further prolongation of a truly evil state of affairs, Maybe.
Ditto military invasions – I'm thinking of Tanzania overthrowing Idi Amin rather than BushBlair invading Iraq.
In fact, for me, the arguments are very comparable to those around Just War. My dad (in the UK) was a pacifist in the 30s; volunteered for military service in 1940, when he believed it had become clear that the only way to end fascism was to defeat it.
My own thinking has gone through a similar trajectory. As a teenager, I became pacifist. Living in Finland for most of my adult life, right next to a Certain Large Country, helped me to rethink some of my idealistic positions. Violence is always evil; sometimes it is the lesser evil.
Also, note: it appears that the violence in Zimbabwe has – so far at least – been minimal. But if Mugabe continues to refuse to knuckle under gracefully – and gracefulness has not been one of his more prominent virtues – then things may turn nastier.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
keibat wrote:
quote:
I'm thinking of Tanzania overthrowing Idi Amin rather than BushBlair invading Iraq.
But there's a strong argument to be made that Tanzania acted in self-defense when they invaded Uganda and ousted Amin, just as there is for Vietnam acting in self-defense when they invaded Cambodia and ousted Pol Pot.
Suppose that instead of bordering Tanzania, Uganda was an island nearby in the Indian Ocean, that wasn't bothering Tanzania at all, but was known to be doing horrible things to its own citizens.
Would the island of Uganda's horrible internal record justify Tanzania invading? I'd say no, because then you're on a slippery slope where any country can invade a non-belligerent country, so long as the invader has a better human-rights record than the invaded.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
The writing was on the wall from day 1. Two things happened first Sunday after Independence. I was Minister of Central Methodist Church in Harare. The new President, Canaan Banana, ( himself a Methodist Minister) came to Church. He arrived in a motorcade with 4 Landrovers bristling with machine guns. His entourage took up 4 rows opposite an exit door and all were armed to the teeth. A militaristic display incompatible with worship. The choir seats were commandeered by Central Intelligence personnel who sat there taking notes! That afternoon I went for a service in a township Church. Arrived to find the doors symbolically locked by a flimsy bit of string and a pile of shoes at the door. No sign of congregation. The Youth Wing had forcibly marched them off to a political rally (sans shoes) half a mile away. That was Day1.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Some reports in the American press, but we are so involved with our sex scandals and Mueller investigations, not much time for anything else.
I am surprised it took this long for the military to intervene. They really had no other choice.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thanks shamwari. Interesting hearing what happened to you. Not sure I could've kept my cool and keep going in that morning service.
A lot of speculation in where Mugabe may go. And rather sad, as it has been for a while, that a champion of African independence has let his country and people get where they now are.
Washington Post sounds a warning, from a cable from 2000:
quote:
...that Mnangagwa was “widely feared and despised throughout the country” and “could be an even more repressive leader” than Mugabe.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
As a general question - is a coup (or "military action to restore order and punish criminals" as the military likes to call it) ever a good thing? If so, when, and when is it not?
If I'm understanding it right this one was carried out without loss of life so the only criterion is "does it produce a better outcome than the status quo". A lot of that depends on the objectives of the military.
The situation of Turkey is an interesting one to consider: how many times has the military intervened in the name of defending the (secular) constitution? The recent slide into Islam-flavoured authoritarianism would likely have produced such an intervention in the past. Would that have been a better or worse outcomes?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
The basket case that is Zimbabwe is a tragedy in which a combination of factors have combined to produce the present farce.
1.Absence of a democratic tradition. (Colonialism, white settler supremacy, emergence of black-based political parties based on communist-style democratic centralism).
2.Cold War. (Western support for apartheid South Africa and Portuguese rule in Angola and Mozambique, thereby forcing the emergence of an independence armed struggle and dependence on the Soviet Union, Cuba and China).
3.Armed Struggle for independence that divided the Matabele and Shona, and was only resolved with military violence against the Matabele post-independence. Furthermore, the victors in the armed struggle were reluctant to permit democratic procedures to deny them the fruits of victory bought by suffering and bloodshed. Ruthless electoral violence even against the Shona when declining electoral support amongst them threatened ZANU-PF rule. (The organiser of this domestic violence is none other than Mnangagwa, who is likely to replace Mugabe).
4.Poor, unimaginative, resentful, vengeful, and deeply prejudicial political leadership, both white and black at least since 1945. (Systems include the quality of the people who run them. They are not simply impersonal).
5.The emergence of a post-independence Kleptocracy, which, combined with administrative incompetence, ran the economy into the ground. This did not matter because the elite, including the security elites, benefitted themselves through diamond smuggling and the export of other mining raw materials.
6.Virtual unconditional South African ANC support, arising from Zimbabwean backing for their anti-apartheid struggle.
7.Unwillingness of the African Union to challenge the current state of affairs because to do so would threaten not too dissimilar elites elsewhere.
…….as Shamwari said at the start of these posts, what we now have is a case of thieves falling out, and there is no reason to believe it is the harbinger of a political culture (democracy and the rule of law) which Zimbabwe has never had.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Well said Kwesi
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thank you for that Kwesi; you filled in much of my ignorance, particularly the cold war and Matabele & Shona aspects which I'm off to research more on.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
There was a lot of chatter by journalists indicating Mugabe would resign.
He didn't.
Not sure what happens from here.
But journalists should be careful what they tweet, imnsho. End up looking foolish.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
I think this is really musical chairs. The rise of Grace Mugabe threatened the established order of succession, that's all. Much to my surprise the Economist seems to think that Emmerson Mnangagwa will take steps to revive the economy and reverse much of Mugabe's policy but he, and Zanu PF, are not noted for espousing human rights and the military still hold the trump card.
It's like South Africa. There are too many persons who have an interest in maintaining the status quo for as long as possible for financial gain.
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Fuzzipeg quote:
Much to my surprise the Economist seems to think that Emmerson Mnangagwa will take steps to revive the economy and reverse much of Mugabe's policy but he, and Zanu PF, are not noted for espousing human rights and the military still hold the trump card.
I think you have to separate economic management from considerations of democracy. There are many examples of successful economic transformation taking place outside a democratic political framework. China is a modern example. Whether ZANU-PF has the desire, discipline and ability to make the necessary compromises with international capitalist interests and restore the agricultural sector to commercial efficiency we shall see. Economically, it's not ZANU-PF's lack of interest in human rights that's the problem but rather its kleptomaniac culture.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I suspect Tiberius Caesar's end at the hands of Caligula and his little mate might be waiting in Mugabe's not too distant future.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I have one very happy Zimbabwean colleague in my office this afternoon
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
He's actually gone now.
I don't think it's wise to hold out that much hope though. Emmerson Mnangagwa is no cuddly democrat. It looks like more of the same - much like the Arab Spring which was supposed to be going to usher in great changes.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
It is the end of an error.
But then the end of white supremacy was also the end of an error.
Please God can it be right this time? The ordinary people have suffered for too long.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Balaam quote:
It is the end of an error.
May that be so, Balaam.
Your Ass, however, might remind you of the adage "there's no such thing as rock bottom in politics."
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Some reporter or pundit on the radio commented that the vice-president, who's taking over, is as bad as Mugabe, and has done some really awful things.
If that's true, is the situation going to be any better?
I don't mean to quash anyone's joy at getting rid of Mugabe, but...
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
BTW, has Mugabe actually been seen anywhere? Last I heard, someone else presented his letter of resignation?
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Balaam quote:
It is the end of an error.
May that be so, Balaam.
Your Ass, however, might remind you of the adage "there's no such thing as rock bottom in politics."
The history of Matabeleland/Southern Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is one error after another. I have no doubt that Mnangagwa is likely to be less bad at best, but with the people out on the street there is no tolerance for a return to Mugabe style government. We need to pray that there is no return to Zanu v. Zapu style violence: People power only goes so far and the change from jubilant crowd to angry mob when expectations are not met can be rapid.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
True, Kwesi, but it is also dependent on whether personal enrichment trumps economic recovery. The top former commercial farms are held by Zanu-PF aristos. Does economic recovery mean that they will have to give them up?
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Fuzzipeg quote:
The top former commercial farms are held by Zanu-PF aristos. Does economic recovery mean that they will have to give them up?
I guess they need to be run by individuals who are competent to run the business. It's a moot point as to whether ZANU-PF can run any business or public service without trashing it.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
It is the end of an error.
But then the end of white supremacy was also the end of an error.
Please God can it be right this time? The ordinary people have suffered for too long.
Double it. Wherever you are on the arc, you're half way. 150 years to go then. Until then the self serving state will disappoint expectation. Hard.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Fuzzipeg quote:
The top former commercial farms are held by Zanu-PF aristos. Does economic recovery mean that they will have to give them up?
I guess they need to be run by individuals who are competent to run the business. It's a moot point as to whether ZANU-PF can run any business or public service without trashing it.
The farms need not be run by the owners. Have them efficiently run so that the Zanu-PF owners can make a profit and you have the start of a solution.
Only a start mind. Getting farms to be efficient takes time, the time it takes for jubilant crowd to become angry mob is short. Time is a rare commodity in times of change.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The time it takes for the police to beat them and tear gas them and fire rubber bullets at them and bird shot and arrest them and come round their dwellings and harass their families at three in the morning while the army waits barely leashed in the barracks happens the same hour.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
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Posted
I thought I'd post a very moving piece here by my friend the writer Petina Gappah on the long shadow Mugabe cast over her childhood and university years in Zimbabwe. The most insightful commentaries I've seen so far have been from black Zimbabweans both in exile and from Harare.
Mugabe and Me
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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Yes, I'm sure Sentamu's brave prophetic action had a lot to do with Mugabe's resignation.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Indeed, all it took was another ten years. They must have flown by in Zimbabwe. I remember watching His Grace do that and my breath was bated ever since. Seems like yesterday. His Grace added to his kudos a few years later by championing marriage only between a man and a woman too. How ... relevant.
[ 28. November 2017, 13:52: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Indeed, all it took was another ten years. They must have flown by in Zimbabwe. I remember watching His Grace do that and my breath was bated ever since. Seems like yesterday. His Grace added to his kudos a few years later by championing marriage only between a man and a woman too. How ... relevant.
Sorry Martin and Robert, but I take askance at your cynicism. What do you expect the Archbishop to have done? Hired his personal jet fighter, have it repainted with his episcopal decal, flown over to Zimbabwe, landed in Harare, removed Robert Mugabe from office, put somebody in power in his place and flown home in time for Evensong?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
? I would 'expect' him to do something credible. Incarnational. Inspired. Inspiring. Courageous. Sacrificial. Go further along the trajectory. And with regard to Zimbabwe too.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
? I would 'expect' him to do something credible. Incarnational. Inspired. Inspiring. Courageous. Sacrificial. Go further along the trajectory. And with regard to Zimbabwe too.
What, then? How would it be the various adjectives you cite? And how would your suggestion, whatever it was, have been compatible with his primary responsibility to his archdiocese? As it happens, his archdiocese doesn't include any diocese in Zimbabwe. They have bishops of their own on whose feet an archbishop of another province is not supposed to tread
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, so if you can't do anything worthwhile, do nowt. No silly gestures.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
New government. Business as usual?
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No! Really?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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