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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Does God do Bad Things for Good People?
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I was doing a little light reading about the Plague this evening. The author asserts that many good things happened because of the Plague. The poor all of a sudden had more economic value and therefore power. Women, especially in the northern parts of Europe, had more freedom and value as humans. And so on.
It got me thinking about a remark I heard earlier today about someone who prayed for it to snow today in Atlanta. She prayed for it because an old friend who loved snow died recently and today would have been her birthday. So, snow to honor an old friend who loved snow.
Mind you, driving around in Atlanta today I got to see all kinds of cars in the ditch beside the road and all kinds of flashing blue and red lights of police and emergency vehicles on their way to the scene of undoubted wrecks.
So, one person at least feels that her well intentioned prayers were answered.
I imagine several people who are now figuring out how to deal with the after effects of wrecking their cars would disagree about answered prayers.
Did God answer the prayers of the nice lady who wanted to honor her friend? What about all the people who suffered? Did God figure it was worth it? Did God even make that calculation?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
No.
Things happen, and they have positive and negative effects.
Now if that lady prayed for snow in Atlanta in August, and it snowed between two 90+ days, then we might have to wrangle with that question a bit!
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
Shit and bad weather both happen. I seriously doubt that the Deity intervened for the latter.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
It's an amazingly complex question Tortuf.
My understanding of God is relational. We are invited to participate in the loving relationship of the Trinity. Christ is both invitation and example.
And I believe God's grace is big enough for all of creation. I have universalist leanings. I would see God in the relationship of the woman honouring her friend and the emergency workers tending to the accidents. I would see God weeping with the broken and their families.
I think God is outside of time as well as within time- and created time within God's being. So all is happening and all has happened depending upon the viewpoint considered.
Death is not the enemy of God or us. Suffering is not the enemy of us. I think broken relationship is the enemy of us. And I see God in restoration of relationship. And I think this is God's focus.
So No, I don't believe God made the snow specifically and deliberately. I believe God created the universe in which the snow was created (evolutionary process)and has worked on relationship with all of creation ever since. And has seen the fulfilment of that work.
Death does not end relationship.
And I pray that I am glimpsing truth, for I rely on that grace.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
We have been praying for peace in the Middle East for about 50 years now.
A God who is ready to grant trivial wishes for snow, rather than peace in the Middle East is not a God I want to believe, let alone worship.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Thoughtful answer Patdys.
God may not have caused that snow because of that prayer. The woman apparently asked for that prayer to be answered in some expectation that it would work.
We ask for things and do not consider the consequences to others all the time. Prayer is another one of those activities.
Should we be mad at that woman for asking God to cause suffering?
I used to hear prayers for "our team" to win back in high school. Wonder how the other team would have felt if we had ever won?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
WOL! I wouldn't dream of asking God anything except rhetorically. I rely on the fact that He never answers any prayer except in His provision in my head. He always answers all prayers the same way, with yearning Zen good will.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Did God answer the prayers of the nice lady who wanted to honor her friend? What about all the people who suffered? Did God figure it was worth it? Did God even make that calculation?
An atheist response to this isof course very simple - things happen or they don't! The good things that pappen after a disaster, such as those which can be seen in retrospect after the plague of 1665, are because of human thought and action. Plants grow after disastrous fires because of the laws of nature. If, or rather, as, that is so, giving the credit or blame to God makes no difference, does it?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I rather like the saying I heard : God isn't in the event. He is in the response to the event.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Did God answer the prayers of the nice lady who wanted to honor her friend? What about all the people who suffered? Did God figure it was worth it? Did God even make that calculation?
An atheist response to this isof course very simple - things happen or they don't! The good things that pappen after a disaster, such as those which can be seen in retrospect after the plague of 1665, are because of human thought and action. Plants grow after disastrous fires because of the laws of nature. If, or rather, as, that is so, giving the credit or blame to God makes no difference, does it?
Oh it does, without Him there'd be null. He makes it all possible.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It seems initially to be an easy question to answer. But I am not sure it is. If God doesn't do one thing perhaps God does no things. We have a bible with various descriptions of the miraculous - intervention into people's lives and the world - were these people specially blest? chosen people? special in ways others of us are not?
The basic salvation is offered to all without reservation, but at the same time some have better and much easier and happy lives. Some suffer and die young. The logical conclusion may be that granted prayers for interventions into the world - miracles, small or large - are matters of interpretation amd actually llusory. A grand deception, foooling ourselves that God sees each little sparrow fall. Many in the world seem to be unobserved sparrows.
Prayer may bring comfort and we have divine support for our troubles and hopes. I have given up praying for more than judgement to do right things and to not express my flaws of personality, excess desires with others. No longer expecting God do actually do anything at all and no longer asking.
One of our better Canadian authors, Robertson Davies said "When you look at what's going on out there now, those trees are dropping seeds by literally the hundreds of thousands and millions, and one or two of them may take on. I think that that is the way that God functions. " (wikiquote) Going on to say that individual fates are not relatively ignorable, something alluded to by CS Lewis in Screwtape when he has the supervising devil tell Wormwood that the deaths in WW2 are only snacks and not a full meal (from my memory).
Salvation and companionship is the Christian deal in my thinking for nearly 7 years after a dramatic event forced this interpretation, superceeding my proir 'God intervenes' understanding. YMMV
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Oh He cannot not see and feel each sparrow fall. But it still falls. Heaven has a trillion sparrows.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I used to hear prayers for "our team" to win back in high school. Wonder how the other team would have felt if we had ever won?
Comedian Jeff Stilson had some related thoughts.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Isn't there a rabbinic view that when God created the universe, God gave up the power to control the universe including manipulation of events, because God enabled a reality that was "not God"?
Which might be the inspiration for process theology.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I used to hear prayers for "our team" to win back in high school. Wonder how the other team would have felt if we had ever won?
Comedian Jeff Stilson had some related thoughts.
I have sat in the pew on a Sunday as the rector fervently prayed, "And Lord, we trust it is your will this afternoon that the Washington Redskins prevail in the playoffs." FWIW it was not the Lord's pleasure that day to bless the Skins with victory.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I certainly recommend Rabbi Harold Kushner's book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People. He wrote this book in response to the loss of his son to progeria, the premature aging of a person.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I know there are people praying for events leading to Armageddon, for the sake of the second coming. That might hurt some folks if it were even vaguely true.
There is also 2 Kings 2; 23-25. God did a howler of a horrible thing for Elisha. If we take the Bible as true, how do you deal with that?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
My Wheeze Out Loud was at your first line. The latest gets a suppressed smile that is on the brink of Holy Laughter. Uh OHHH!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I have sat in the pew on a Sunday as the rector fervently prayed, "And Lord, we trust it is your will this afternoon that the Washington Redskins prevail in the playoffs." FWIW it was not the Lord's pleasure that day to bless the Skins with victory.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) For the prayer, the racist name of the team, that the rector would utter it.
God doesn't get involved with stock markets, school examinations, job applications, preventing crime, national success, outcomes of wars, nor anything else like that.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And yet I am sure many a fervent prayer indeed rises from an examination room.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I know there are people praying for events leading to Armageddon, for the sake of the second coming. That might hurt some folks if it were even vaguely true.
There is also 2 Kings 2; 23-25. God did a howler of a horrible thing for Elisha. If we take the Bible as true, how do you deal with that?
Tortuf, for me, I can identify the truth in the story of the Bible. I am unable to reconcile that every word is fact and to be honest, I think that diminishes the literary truth of the bible. Fact and story are very different and both may be true.
And the question I have is..., Did the bears say grace?
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
LOL! More of a W/SOL actually.
As the Cohen brothers say of Fargo, it's a true STORY.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I don't believe it physically happened either.
Still, it embodies our desires to have God strike down those whom we do not like. If it was meant as a lesson in what not to do, it might have a different ending. Does the Bible condone that?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
We have been praying for peace in the Middle East for about 50 years now.
A God who is ready to grant trivial wishes for snow, rather than peace in the Middle East is not a God I want to believe, let alone worship.
But perhaps peace is a process rather than an end point, and perhaps God is a part of that process. The idea that God has done nothing for Middle East peace doesn't seem quite right to me.
Moreover, although people complain about 'trivial' prayers, almost everything we might pray for could be seen as trivial if viewed in a certain light. Everything other than death itself could be seen as trivial. Success in exams seems important, but it doesn't mean one's going to be a success in life. Having a great interview and getting a good job might seem like a mighty prayer victory, but plenty of people have jobs, sometimes amazing jobs, but are still miserable.
It also occurs to me that for those people who aren't destined to live fantastic, influential, highly productive lives, 'trivial' petitionary prayers are one way of keeping God involved in their own personal, everyday circumstances. God becomes less personal if we can only pray to him regarding big, important things.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As we are God's hands, where have they worked, where are they working in the Middle East? As we are God's voice, where is He speaking in Washington?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Isn't there a rabbinic view that when God created the universe, God gave up the power to control the universe including manipulation of events, because God enabled a reality that was "not God"?
Which might be the inspiration for process theology.
In kabbalistic thought, tzimtzum refers to the withdrawal or contraction of God, replaced as you say, by created things.
It seems very ingenious, as it explains the apparent absence of God, and also his non-intervention, but presumably a lot of Jews do not agree with this. It also suggests (I think), that God's presence is taboo, since it would overwhelm created things.
Some people even connect this with the notion of emptiness, giving rise to everything, in some Eastern religions, but that seems doubtful, unless one posits such ideas as universal.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As we are God's hands, where have they worked, where are they working in the Middle East? As we are God's voice, where is He speaking in Washington?
A question that has been asked for as long as the Bible has been written, possibly longer. The Biblical book believed to be the earliest written, Job, asks the questions do bad things happen to good people and does God do evil. I don't think you would like the conclusion of that book, Martin.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's my favourite.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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