 |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: So, er, why did Jesus HAVE to die again?
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
In the God 'space' - gimme 'slot' any day - after feeding the marginalized last night the feast continued spiritually for a handful with a reading of Matthew 27:27-50, the brutal, callous, nasty, sadistic, cruel, mocking mistreatment of Jesus to death after the always terminal flogging. They were then asked what it was for. With all but one voice (NOT mine, I tend to say nothing at all), every comment was to the effect that it - the worst death ever of course - was for their sins. I despaired silently as usual. One woman, ill used by life, whom I'd already encouraged to tell it like it is when we go round the circle finding something to be grateful, at least implicitly, to God for; she said she'd had a 'crap week' and when the person (a 'leader') who DENIED that by trying to repress it and insist that she dig deep to find something positive shut up, she told us and she certainly had, well this woman, a folk fundamentalist, spoke as she found the emperor naked. She had no idea why Jesus had to die.
We've been here many times before. I went to my transformed neo-orthodox former cult's site for their take and it's inclusive of all the models of atonement, especially Christus Victor. I do take away that it was the ultimate - and only - act of love by God, an intervention of the greatest possible shock and awe culminating the mind blowing Incarnation, made relevant through the Resurrection, so more than enough just once. But Christus Victor emphasizes sin and death and the Devil in simplistic, literal terms and that somehow Jesus faithfully, unbelievably courageously, ignorantly followed His Father's will as He discerned in the TaNaKh.
I'm grateful He did, it disturbs the Hell out of me. It hasn't turned me or anyone I know in to a spiritual giant in fruits of the spirit.
And even St. Rob the Bell doesn't have the answer: 'Can you see why questions that begin with Why did God do it that way…? will never give you satisfying answers? It’s the wrong question which will always result in an unsatisfying answer.'.
Is all we have the question then? What is the right one?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Magic.
No, really. At least I find CS Lewis' take, again, no less satisfactory than other explanations. There's some stuff that it's above our pay grade to understand.
quote:
that though the Witch knew the Deep Magic, there is a magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of time. But if she could have looked a little further back, into the stillness and the darkness before Time dawned, she would have read there a different incantation. She would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backward.
Jesus' death is the ultimate meeting-place between the immaterial Godhead and the incarnate. It gets to the very heart of the human condition in every sense of the term, defeats evil on its own terms, the proof of which is the resurrection. At least that's where I stand, pretty much.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Touché!
Beautifully put.
(Even though it's THE answer!)
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
That really is so bloody good I'm going to print it on a card and have it laminated.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
Years ago I asked God to give me one reason, understandable to me, why Jesus had to die.
A few days later, I found an idea in my head. If Jesus had stayed up in heaven, he could have overruled death, but he could only overcome it if it could happen to him.
Obviously this is not the whole story by a long shot, but it is the one reason I asked for. I'm convinced the matter is far too complex for me to understand it all, but I now have one clear idea to go on with.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
That'll be on the back!
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
Because there was no other way.
Because God (and the Son) so loved the world.
To save sinners.
(and a few others)
Any more detailed structure that I've seen, (that connects them or orders them) breaks a number of these (or effectively requires belief in a super Deity above God, who doesn't care, or a my evil is your good).
That doesn't mean they can't be helpful and contain true, but they clearly aren't the whole and nothing but the truth. And when they conflict with reality they have to go [for a while].
[ 16. December 2017, 12:43: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Maybe the short, snappy answer is that he had to die because he was a human, just as you and I are.
No it doesn't answer everything, but consequent things do flow from that.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Er...I think Martin might have been asking the question 'Why did Jesus have to die', again i.e. for the second time of asking, IYSWIM.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
|
Posted
Martin, I disagree with your basic premises.
First, I do not think Jesus had to die. I think Jesus had that choice.
Second, Jesus did not, in my less than humble opinion, die as a sacrifice for our sins. That whole humanity is saddled with the sins of Adam and Eve is bullshit as far as I am concerned. It was that kind of bullshit that led to theological gymnastics like the Immaculate Conception.
Jesus died for a number of reasons, many of which I will never even know about, much less understand, because I am not God. I can't know everything God knows and I cannot understand everything God understands.
My thoughts on why Jesus died:
God demonstrating that God understands and is willing to share our suffering and pain.
God letting us know that death is part of life and is not to be feared.
God letting us know that there are sacrifices involved in following in the footsteps of Jesus, because following Jesus is not about buying into power and wealth and status.
God bringing us the lessons of Jesus at a time when people tried to gain God's favor by following laws that may, or may not, all have been revelations from God.
God demonstrating that we are not going to "get" everything God communicates to us a la to Disciples needing to hear things multiple times and still not understanding.
God demonstrating to us that imperfect people can still serve God.
God revealing the nature of God more clearly through the Trinity as relationship and an emanation of love.
YMMV
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
The real reason is in the metaphor given repeatedly in the gospel. The metaphor is always the same but is expressed in different ways:
- that we must die in order to live
- that the physical must die so that the spirit can live
- that the old man must die so that the new man can live
- that we must seek treasure in heaven not treasure on earth
- whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it
- that the ruler of this world must be cast out
- that we need to prioritize heavenly things over earthly things
Jesus simply modelled this process, and in so doing overcame the powers that would have us prioritize physical life over spiritual life. As a result we are free to choose.
--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Tortuf. That'll need an A6 card!
[ 16. December 2017, 13:27: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
I rather warm to Freddy's summary.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
You got me Bishops Finger. I love it Doc Tor; you're as literal, as Aspergersesque as me! I s'pose I should of put the adverb at the beginning or second or third.
Sooo, we have two of yous invoking choice overlapping with two that Jesus didn't have to die.
This is the thread going down the plug 'ole I'm sure, but He thought He did. That He had no choice. To save (some!) sinners.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
And what's the point of God having reasons for partaking of death that we can't understand?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
Answering more seriously ( ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) this time, it's only something that I've come to appreciate as I've got older, and my kids have got older.
My use - apart from my wallet and my advice, poor that both are - is to be a meat-shield for them. They are both adults (just) and are free to make their own terrible decisions. My job is now to come between them and the consequences of those terrible decisions.
That's all. And if I can imagine doing that for my own children, I can just about imagine God doing that for me.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
He would have died of old age or something else had he not been killed.
He was killed because he was being subversive, he was a threat to the establishment. He knew this, he expected it and predicted it.
It’s not Jesus death that’s surprising - 1000s were crucified in his day. It’s his resurrection (if you believe in it) that was surprising and amazing and hope-giving.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Aye Boogie. Doc Tor. Ohhhhhhhh! A deliberate misunderstanding, disingenuous or faux-naïf. Stand down that man, it's only me that's Aspergersesque.
Nice metaphor. And like our kids, our lousy decisions are no one's fault. But everyone's responsibility all the way up to God Himself.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Boogie said:
quote:
It’s not Jesus death that’s surprising - 1000s were crucified in his day. It’s his resurrection (if you believe in it) that was surprising and amazing and hope-giving.
And that, IMHO, is the prime reason why the church still exists today.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
|
Posted
[q]The real reason is in the metaphor given repeatedly in the gospel. The metaphor is always the same but is expressed in different ways:
▪that we must die in order to live
▪that the physical must die so that the spirit can live
▪that the old man must die so that the new man can live
▪that we must seek treasure in heaven not treasure on earth
▪whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it
▪that the ruler of this world must be cast out
▪that we need to prioritize heavenly things over earthly things
Jesus simply modelled this process, and in so doing overcame the powers that would have us prioritise physical life over spiritual life. As a result we are free to choose.[/q]
It would be incongruous for Jesus to have failed to put his own teaching into practice. That locked him into a situation whereby he was inevitably a victim of human moral and ethical cowardice and the scapegoat of religious and political expediency.
Given the fallen nature of the 'powers that be', i.e. social, political, religious, institutional etc. He had to die because [u]THEY[/u] could not afford to let him live.
His teaching diametrically opposed ALL the core values of the 'world domination system'.
He and his disciples after him repudiated the aristocratic values of power and wealth, assumed wrongly by the privileged to indicate God's favor.
He repudiated the institutions and systems which authorized and supported these values:
The Family,
The Law,
The sacrificial system,
The Temple,
kosher food regulations,
the distinction between clean and unclean,
patriarchy,
role expectations for women and children,
the class system,
the use of violence,
racial and ethnic divisions,
the distinction between insider and outsider,
- indeed, every conceivable prop of domination, division, and supremacy.
How could human 'civilization' ALLOW him to live? He was far too outspoken and dangerous to the beneficiaries of 'The Status Quo'.
It has been rightly stated in this thread that The Resurrection is more encouraging and hope inducing than the crucifixion.
However, more of the nature of God is revealed in the crucifixion than in the resurrection because it is through that that God has chosen to reveal the extent of His desire to be reconciled with recalcitrant humanity. It is through God's act of self sacrifice that God demonstrated the extent of his forgiveness of even unrepentant sinners.
His appeal to us is to now be reconciled with Him, through adopting His life/death style.
My sign off says it all.
Regards Chris.
--------------------
Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
|
Posted
I think the question exposes the problem with a God who is essentially external to the world. God is imagined as a cosmic puppet master or perhaps the author of a novel. So the events we see are really the story God has chosen to tell. Why does God make Jesus die? Is the story in some way better?
But if God is also properly in the world, then the plot is experienced as events and mishaps and malevolent deeds. It is for Jesus as it is for us.
The prayer in the Garden is partly a prayer anyone might offer: let it not be. But also looks beyond events to a perspective where the actions of soldiers, Pilate, priests and crowd are also held within the purpose of God, so there can be trust. And with faith, I suppose any of us might offer that one, too: yet, not my will ..
--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
|
Posted
I'd say Jesus had to die because he wanted to save hell. I think his mission was to destroy the power of hell without destroying hell itself, which he could only accomplish by allowing it to do its worst (i.e. killing God) and then through the Resurrection demonstrating that it had completely failed, after which hell could no longer pretend to be something it wasn't.
Before Jesus' death, people were in danger of losing their freedom to make a rational choice between heaven and hell because the church was no longer presenting a clear distinction between the two. With Jesus' death and Resurrection, that freedom was restored because the distinction was made clear again.
Or as I've put it before: I believe that God made himself manifest to us as Jesus Christ in order to show us the way back to salvation and peace, without intruding on our freedom to choose how we want to respond to Him. He came to break the power of evil without destroying those of us (and those parts of each of us) who embrace it.
--------------------
A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Nice takes. I woke up this morning thinking about how Jesus defeated sin (the individual, personal human condition), death and the Devil (the synergy of our conditions), all that makes Hell on Earth, not by some esoteric transaction in Heaven, but full on, literally in life, death and resurrection.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
On a purely historical level I would say Early Christianity needed martyrdom as its core imperative in order to bring down the Roman Empire.
On a Spiritual level I don’t have an answer, apart from a few which might flicker through the thoughts from time to time.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
My sin is ever before me. I'm trapped, ruminating on, being intruded upon by over fifty years of shame right up to being found wanting, to say the least, now; I have not charity. Not enough, never enough. In my own front room.
And that is redeemed. That will end. Not just in oblivion, but in transcendence, in which I rationally cannot believe. Thanks be to God in Christ, the ultimate intrusion. And that creates headspace, hope, in the hopeless inrush of shame, failure, cursed, cursing inadequacy now. In the jungle I actually saw a cool stream with sunlit dappled sand and pebbles in my mind's eye by the tea cupboard a couple of hours ago.
So give us yer thoughts rolyn. If you can.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
In the God 'space' - gimme 'slot' any day - after feeding the marginalized last night the feast continued spiritually for a handful with a reading of Matthew 27:27-50, the brutal, callous, nasty, sadistic, cruel, mocking mistreatment of Jesus to death after the always terminal flogging. They were then asked what it was for. With all but one voice (NOT mine, I tend to say nothing at all), every comment was to the effect that it - the worst death ever of course - was for their sins. I despaired silently as usual. One woman, ill used by life, whom I'd already encouraged to tell it like it is when we go round the circle finding something to be grateful, at least implicitly, to God for; she said she'd had a 'crap week' and when the person (a 'leader') who DENIED that by trying to repress it and insist that she dig deep to find something positive shut up, she told us and she certainly had, well this woman, a folk fundamentalist, spoke as she found the emperor naked. She had no idea why Jesus had to die.
We've been here many times before. I went to my transformed neo-orthodox former cult's site for their take and it's inclusive of all the models of atonement, especially Christus Victor. I do take away that it was the ultimate - and only - act of love by God, an intervention of the greatest possible shock and awe culminating the mind blowing Incarnation, made relevant through the Resurrection, so more than enough just once. But Christus Victor emphasizes sin and death and the Devil in simplistic, literal terms and that somehow Jesus faithfully, unbelievably courageously, ignorantly followed His Father's will as He discerned in the TaNaKh.
I'm grateful He did, it disturbs the Hell out of me. It hasn't turned me or anyone I know in to a spiritual giant in fruits of the spirit.
And even St. Rob the Bell doesn't have the answer: 'Can you see why questions that begin with Why did God do it that way…? will never give you satisfying answers? It’s the wrong question which will always result in an unsatisfying answer.'.
Is all we have the question then? What is the right one?
Brilliant. I'm sitting here moving my head from side to side with my mouth open, applauding. Its not the theology that gets me going, but the portrayal of the struggle. I realise that's not much help, but if a drowning man is making beautiful patterns in the water, should we intervene?
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Perhaps it was a hurting world, lashing out at a man who was too like the God who had hurt it. So the world delivered the God-man into the hands of Death, and the keeper of the gates of Hades said, "It's a trap!"
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
OKayyyyy. How did God hurt the world? Apart from by creating it? By the act of creation? Which hurts all concerned. The world cannot be created unhurting, without hurt all round.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
Some scattered Thoughts
Ultimate sanction? Like someone 'giving' their life for their country. For right or for wrong.
Then, on another level of thinking, there are film Idols like Munroe or Dean who become immortalised be their own dark charisma and by having lives cut short.
Jesus. Who was He? Why did He speak in riddles? Why did He choose to suffer unimaginable physical pain and death, when he could easily have disappeared and enjoyed earthly pleasures away from the crowd til the end of His natural life.
One question presents and endless stream of others.
Isn’t it better to simply say It was God's Will, a done deal. Who am I to pick it apart?
If is to do with hurt, as alighted to in a previous post, then God knows there never is, and never will be a shortage of that in His/Her Flock.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
....by God's flock I was referring to everyone,(or everything for that matter), past, present and future. Regardless of religious persuasion or absence of it.
Going on further to think about the business of Jesus died just for me. That, on a multitude of levels, is almost too overwhelming to properly contemplate. Guessing that is where the Resurrection comes in.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
That's another cheque in the post simontoad.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Here it is, two days before Christmas, when we celebrate God coming into the world through a man we know as Immanuel or Jesus and we are talking about his death?
Wrong season in my book.
But since the topic has arisen. I am moving away from the idea of substitutionary atonement.
To me, Jesus died because he spoke truth to power. He stood up to the religious authorities of his day, and he got into some hot water because of his political views, though the Romans found him not guilty of any crime. He was put to death because of what he was saying.
Then God intervened and caused the resurrection.
You asked, this is my view.
There is no indication he died again.
[ 22. December 2017, 16:07: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
There is no indication he died again.
The “again” in the thread title should be read as relating to “tell me”—“Tell me again why Jesus had to die?”
To ask whether Jesus died as a sacrifice of some kind or whether he died because he spoke truth to power is, I think, to suggest a false dichotomy. Both can be true; I think both are true. The question is whether Jesus’s death (and resurrection) was in some way salvific, and if so how. And as posed, the question is did Jesus have to die, and if so why.
I think Jesus had to die because he was fully human, and humans die. If he hadn’t died, he wouldn’t have been fully human, nor would he have (voluntarily) entered fully into the human condition. But by dying, he not only fulfilled his humanity, he conquered death and redeemed humanity.
I think it’s true he was killed because he challenged the authorities and assumptions of his day. But I think it’s clear he knew full well that his actions would result in his death. And I think it’s clear he knew he had to die, and he voluntarily accepted that death and offered his life out of love.
[ 23. December 2017, 01:35: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Perfick. Gramps49 was jes' funnin' with me I'm sure. The only way to remove the ambiguity, as I said above, would have been to have put the adverb at the other end. But the style would have been lost.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0
|
|
|
|
|
| |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
