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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: It’s panto time! A great British family Christmas cross dressing tradition
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
For the benefit of Americans, I better explain about the British pantomime. Essentially it is a Christmas variety show shamelessly cobbled on to the slim plot of a fairy story.
From the Alhambra at Stockton on Tees to the Pavilion at Southend on Sea, from the Palladium at Weston super Mare to the Regent at Ashton under Lyme, panto provides many people their only experience of live theatre in the year and for much of the theatrical profession the most reliable source of annual employment.
There are a number of conventions, including a lot of audience participation. In particular:
The male juvenile lead nowadays is usually a pretty male soap star. Not so long ago that was not the case. The role, the Principal Boy, was played by a young women, quite possibly in high heels, fish net tights and a one piece bathing costume eked out by the attributes of Aladdin, Prince Charming, Dick Whittington or whoever. Any women singer with a good pair of thighs could reckon on getting top billing, but as far as I can make out the Principal Boy is no longer around. It was not played for laughs and indeed was probably found glamorous and sexy by both men and women, straight and gay.
By contrast the principal comedian played the Dame – the Ugly Sister, Widow Twanky, Mother Goose or whoever, played in unglamorous drag. Although nowadays the Dame may well be played by an out gay man or a professional female impersonator, that was not how s/he was traditionally played. The Dame would be played with a male voice and no necessity to appear feminine. The joke I would suggest was at the expense of men, not women. Or was it?
I am putting this in Purgatory, not Heaven, because it raises at least two interesting questions:
ONE Why has the Principal Boy disappeared? What does that say about changing attitudes to gender and sexuality?
TWO Why was a woman dressed as a man glamorous but a man dressed as woman comic?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
quote:
...it raises at least two interesting questions:
O NO, IT DOESN'T!!
I'll get me coat...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
It's a very long time since I saw a pantomime (I was actually in an amateur one* when I was a kid), so I didn't realise that the Principal Boy had gone by the wayside. Or is that just in the professional ones, so that the aforementioned pretty male soap stars can get some overtime?
I don't see anything wrong with the whole fun of the cross-dressing thing: maybe the Dame was a throwback from the early days of theatre when women weren't allowed to act? As for the Principal Boy tradition, would it have grown out of a sort of "topsy-turvy" thing where everything is the wrong way round?
It may be that in professional shows, the Dame is more likely to be played by a gay actor, but in the amateur ones of my youth, she was usually played by either the manager of the local airport or the manager of the local distillery, both of whom were as straight as a die.
* not as a Principal Boy - I haven't got the right sort of legs ... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
I'm involved in a village pantomime this year and we are being suitably traditional with a woman playing the male lead and a man playing the dame!
The setting is somewhat less traditional as this particular panto is set in the wild west! However the plot is very similar to a lot of other pantos.
It's interesting that pantos are family entertainment but contain a great deal of innuendo. I notice that some professional pantos this year upset people by seeming to cross the line from innuendo to vulgar and inappropriate for children. For example in Manchester.
Yet there are other complaints (eg Daily Mail etc) that being 'politically correct' is killing off pantos.
Where is the line between acceptable and inappropriate?
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Sorry, not sure why the link didn't work. Trying again! Manchester panto
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
My Daughter took her 8 year-old granddaughter to This in Manchester and found it excellent. Its on until the 30th December, so hurry up if you want to go!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Hated panto as a child as they didn't keep to the stories which I already knew. Never got into it since.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I hated panto as a child, the noise, the shouting, the silly jokes.
Not my thing at all.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
Another panto hater here, I hated it as a child and still do
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
Yet there are other complaints (eg Daily Mail etc) that being 'politically correct' is killing off pantos.
The complaint was occasioned by this (quote the DM):
"theatre bosses removed a Dick Whittington sketch at the London Palladium where a male actor looks up a female character's skirt."
Which I think is perfectly justifiable, and not an evidence of 'political correctness'.
Frankly I find pantomine childish; and loathe the fact that those putting on such shows feel it incumbent on them to play up the legs, tits and bums aspect to provide 'something for the dads'
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
I remember our church pantomimes where our curate would play the Dame. Not only was he into amateur dramatics, we later found out he was gay, so I suppose he fitted the profile suggested.
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Another panto-hater here, despite having acted (somewhat reluctantly) in quite a few at The Church Of My Yoof.
Fortunately for everyone, I never got any decent roles - I was 1st Soldier, or 3rd Floor-sweeper, or whatever.
I agree about the childishness and silly jokes - children have more taste, so ISTM that panto is mostly for rather immature adults to enjoy.
Bah, humbug, BTW....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
There's a difference between admitting you don't like panto, and feeling morally superior to those that do. It's much the same as preferring soft drinks because one doesn't like the taste of alcohol and being a self-righteous temperance prig, a fully paid up militant of the Anti-Saloon League - and yes, that is the name of an organisation that really existed!
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I like childishness and silly jokes - oh well, I must be immature.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but, yes, there's nowt wrong with a bit of immaturity!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
Whole point of panto is that it is immature and silly. Just what you need after the Christmas celebrations and heavy food before you settle back to work and school and the seriousness of life.
Mind you, some of the modern pantos aren't a patch on the older ones (I used to prefer the Citz and Pavilion ones in Glasgow to the Alhambra and Kings ones which were too celebrity based and not half so funny) - or is that just me!
The jokes need to be carefully crafted so that they are double entendres without being smutty; a beautiful leading lady with fab costumes changes; a thigh slapping principal boy; good dancers; slap stick comedy; a really good bady that you can boo and hiss at; sweets thrown into the audience; a bady-goody chase through the auditorium; you might even have a watter fight and a sing song at the end. Oh yes, and a dame with over the top costumes and make up.
Come on let your hair down. 'Tis the time to be silly.
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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Viola
Administrator
# 20
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Posted
I'm reliably informed (by my 6 year old, who went with his school class) that our local panto definitely still had a lady playing Dick Whittington.
But maybe soap stars don't come this far west...
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"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010
Posts: 4345 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Whole point of panto is that it is immature and silly. Just what you need after the Christmas celebrations and heavy food before you settle back to work and school and the seriousness of life.
Mind you, some of the modern pantos aren't a patch on the older ones (I used to prefer the Citz and Pavilion ones in Glasgow to the Alhambra and Kings ones which were too celebrity based and not half so funny) - or is that just me!
The jokes need to be carefully crafted so that they are double entendres without being smutty; a beautiful leading lady with fab costumes changes; a thigh slapping principal boy; good dancers; slap stick comedy; a really good baddy that you can boo and hiss at; sweets thrown into the audience; a bady-goody chase through the auditorium; you might even have a water fight and a sing song at the end. Oh yes, and a dame with over the top costumes and make up.
Come on let your hair down. 'Tis the time to be silly.
At some point Buttons or some character with a similar role has to lead all the children singing a song where the words to follow come down on a great sheet from above. He has to have a bicycle or something that other performers can steal. And random children have to be invited up onto the stage to lead the singing, either then or at some other point in the action.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Whole point of panto is that it is immature and silly ...
Well said, Wild Haggis - that's exactly what I was thinking.
Pantomime isn't meant to be high art - it's just meant to be fun. If you want high art, go to Glyndebourne.
A double entendre or two is fine; I think maybe the finger/trouser thing alluded to above is pushing it a bit, but I don't see anything wrong with a modicum of gentle British smut.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
* sings *
'I'm a Lonely Little Petunia in an Onion Patch, an Onion Patch, an Onion Patch!
I'm a Lonely Little Petunia in an Onion Patch,
O, won't you come and play me with Me?
Boo-hoo, boo-hoo! The air's so strong, it takes my breath away!
I'm a Lonely Little Petunia in an Onion Patch,
O, won't you come and play with Me?'
They don't write 'em like that any more.....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
* sings *
'I'm a Lonely Little Petunia in an Onion Patch, an Onion Patch, an Onion Patch!'
Many years ago my father grew some onions in our garden. You can probably guess what sort of flower I planted amongst them.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
The village panto figures heavily in Hamilton Crane's 'Starring Miss Seeton.' There's lots of backstage info, rehearsals, (Cinderella is the show.) Principal Boy is the waitress from the village pub, 2 dames as the step-sisters, played by the schoolmaster and the doctor, and Buttons is the perpetually love-sick son of the squire.
Miss Seeton solves the case in the midst of a performance!
Lots of fun! IMHO
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but, yes, there's nowt wrong with a bit of immaturity!
IJ
True.
It's the shouting and screaming I can't bear.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
"behind you!"
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
I've co-written and will be appearing in our church production of Dick Whittington. We have a young woman playing the Principal Boy, but that is probably down to a shortage of men - we only have five men taking part and one of those is the dame.
The whole thing about Panto is it rarely sticks to,the story. If we were to just follow the story, the whole thing would only take about 25 minutes, if that, and the rest is padded out with set pieces, silly sketches amd appalling recycled jokes, all of which would fit in any panto, regardless of the story.
Childish and immature? Of course it is! This being Dick Whittington, we are trying to restrain the guy playing the dame from slipping in as many "dick" jokes as possible without the director noticing (we did Aladdin last time, and he did the same with "ring" jokes).
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I may be wrong, but I always thought panto was an Italian tradition that spread throughout Europe.
I haven't been to a panto since my childhood, but I remember opera and show tunes being readapted and tweaked slightly and the comedy trio and the big villain. Panto then seemed to be about the music and the big spectacle. I have vivid memories of an enormous golden egg laying goose wobbling down an aisle towards the stage! I had assumed the cross-dressing was a parody of old theatre when only men acted all the parts and of opera's diva culture.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
Yes you're right, the English panto developed through a long journey from Italian Comedia de l'Arte.
I have a books somewhere about it. Maybe I should look "behind you" to find where it is.
I think it's a shame when it is too modernised with big stars or really smutty jokes; double entendres, yes but not smut.
I think amateur pantos can be really good fun, they aren't meant to be professionally finished, and they build community - or can make fights, as in "The Archers" on Radio 4!
Anyway, enjoy your visits to the pantos and yell loudly, "behind you."
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
The local Am Dram group put on a panto each year and they try to stick faithfully to most of the Traditions of the Panto.
As an ex-pat Brit it is fun to go and give the Canadians in the audience some idea of what they should do. We have found that the kids especially take a little while to get the hang of shouting at the baddies and booing whenever they come on stage. But it isn't long before they catch on and really get involved. At this year's panto, some of the comments shouted out by the kids were hilarious.
It is also interesting to watch the members of the cast and see who really "gets" panto and who doesn't. There is always a couple of people who really enter into the spirit of panto and always a few people who seem utterly unsure about how to react.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Could this sort of thing count?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Not quite the same thing, but fun!
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I am glad to see the Principal Boy is still slapping her thighs in amateur panto. One reason that the convention was popular once was it was the only context in which a straight man in the company of his wife and children could ogle a woman’s thighs. Nowadays images of women’s bodies (and men’s) are readily available. Clothing is more revealing.
But the Principal Boy was only a comic version of the widespread phenomenon of the male impersonator. Most opera composers wrote trouser roles from Mozart to Richard Strauss. Sarah Bernhadt played Hamlet. Young men and children were regularly played by women on the serious stage.
And in the Music Hall, Vesta Tilley was only the most famous male impersonator until she retired from the boards as the wife of a Conservative politician. Her immaculate costumes were copied by smart young men. And I wish I had seen her singing “All the nice girls love a sailor” with the lines “For there’s something about a sailor, well you know what sailors are”. I hope the innuendo was intentional.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Yes you're right, the English panto developed through a long journey from Italian Comedia de l'Arte.
double entendres, yes but not smut
Yes to both.
In the early C19 a pantomine was a fairy story in which at the end the main characters were transformed into a few Commedia dell’ Arte charaters – Harlequin, Columbine and Pantaloon plus the Clown. The most famous Clown was Joey Grimaldi. I believe a certain type of carnival clown is still called a Joey.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Could this sort of thing count?
Not really. I think that's more what we imagine 'vaudeville' is.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Isn't the reason possibly just that pantomime is a lot less popular than it used to be? I remember going to lots of pantomime as a child back in the early to mid 80s. I remember there being a lot of slapstick, but nothing "for the dads" (as Chris Stiles rather po-facedly claims).
By the mid 90s, I remember lots of panto being marketed on the basis that some big name was in the cast, for example, one in Wimbledon had Pamela Anderson in her pomp (I believe that all she did was swing around a bit and disappear).
The last time I went to a really good pantomime was 2010. The last time I went to a pantomime at all was about 4 years ago. So probably some of the texture and culture involved in pantomime is simply disappearing and it isn't anything to do with changing attitudes to gender and so forth. I would have thought that the recent tolerance for gender fluidity would have been a bit of a bonus for pantomime, as it could have provided an excuse for everyone to relax - albeit briefly - and have a good laugh about the vicissitudes of gender. Perhaps the reason why this hasn't happened is simply because people don't go to pantomimes any more.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I've a lot of great memories of panto; both watching the more professional efforts when a kid, and being involved over several years with our local drama group.
My first experience of it was the Grove Theatre on the Shore Road (Belfast) with Leila Webster singing archly: 'I have got a fresh egg... I have got a fresh egg.....' before throwing the 'fresh egg' she was holding into the audience. Then we had a singing competition: left side of the theatre singing 'It's a long way to Tipperary' vs. right side singing 'Pack up your troubles'. And, oh, the joy to hear that you could sing both tunes together, and it sounded great! All clever stuff and a lot of fun to a kid.
And why does a brown cow give white milk when it only eats green grass? It only took a freak in a frock with a big wooden pointer and a huge song-sheet on the stage, in those days to get people participating. Digital projectors and screens need not apply!
Good panto is an art-form. And one of the great things about it is a good local am-dram group can often pull off a thoroughly entertaining evening's show; sometimes even more satisfying than the slicker, less heartfelt professional productions.
Bad panto, on the other hand.... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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