Thread: The Power of Prayer? Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on
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You may (or may not) know that I have been recently diagnosed with breast cancer, and before my surgery on 3rd January, have been subjected to various scans, in order to see if the cancer has spread.
Many friends have been praying for me, as I have for myself, my prayers mostly being of the "Please be near/ help me to deal with what is found/ thank you for medical staff" ilk. I have truly felt God near and felt very calm about the possible results. Indeed, the power of prayer.
However, I have now received the results of the scans, and thankfully they are normal. No sign of the cancer having spread. I sent the news to some friends who had been praying for me, and L replied with the message "The power of prayer! Thank God! That is wonderful news!"
She had been praying that the cancer would not have spread, and so, for her, the power of prayer was demonstrated in the fact that it had not spread. But what if it had?
If it had already spread into my bones, then would we say that L's prayer had not "worked", that prayer had in fact been useless? I believe that God could have healed the cancer (had it spread) but I certainly wouldn't expect Him to do so.
I don't want to rain on L's parade, and I certainly don't want to seem ungrateful for her fidelity in prayer for me - but I wonder whether "the power of prayer" was indeed demonstrated in the fact that the cancer had not spread, but rather in the calmness, and ability to rely on God's love and goodness that I had...
What are other people's thoughts?
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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My thought is that there are times to wrestle and try to nail down what we believe and what we think is going on, and there are times to simply live with the mystery. I think this may be the latter sort of time.
I tend to pray as you have been doing, not as L has been, so I tend to be a little skeptical of claims like L is making. But there are more things than are dreamt of in my philosophy . . . .
Meanwhile, and more importantly, YAY!
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on
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Sir Francis Galton published a study in 1872 examining this question. He reasoned that since members of the clergy of the various state religions are typically instructed to pray for he health of the sovereign that such sovereigns should be the healthiest and longest lived individuals, if the prayers were having any effect at all.
His study, which was limited to men in relatively affluent professions who reached the age of at least thirty and excluded deaths by violence or accident, came to the opposite conclusion.
quote:
The sovereigns are literally the shortest lived of all who have the advantage of affluence. The prayer has therefore no efficacy, unless the very questionable hypothesis be raised, that the conditions of royal life may naturally be yet more fatal, and that their influence is partly, though incompletely, neutralized by the effects of public prayers.
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on
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In 12-step programs, the 12th step involves "praying only for the knowledge of God's will, and the power to carry that out".
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
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I do not believe in prayer as a way to get what I want. God is not a galactic vending machine dispensing blessings when I ask, or when I use the proper words. That is so, for me, whether I ask for myself, or for someone else.
That being said, I believe there is power in prayer because is strengthens the connection between people when prayer is for someone else. Strengthening my connection with other children of God helps my connection with God.
When I pray now I pray for acceptance and guidance and connection with God. Being mindful about those things and placing them before God confers the blessing of acceptance and peace. Those prayers are for myself and everyone else.
God is always seeking me out (as God seeks all of us.) I just don't see that unless I leave myself open to that.
In your case I can, and do, share your happiness that the cancer has not spread and the implication that it can be successfully treated. That is wonderful news.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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First of all, let me join others in celebrating a good diagnosis and prognosis, wherever that may come from.
As an open theist, my belief is a bit different.
Open theism for me is tied closely to inaugurated eschatology-- the notion that the world as we see it right now represents the reality that God's Kingdom is both "now" and "not yet". If that assumption is correct, we should expect in this "in between era" to see signs of both Kingdoms-- "the powers that be" and "the world to come". We see signs of "the powers that be"-- the brokenness and "not rightness" of this world-- which would include human-made evil like war, violence, injustice-- but also signs of "natural evil"-- including cancer. But we also see signs of the coming Kingdom-- God's gracious breaking in. We see that in human actions like compassion, reconciliation and sacrifice, but also in miraculous things like healing.
In a time between the two eras, we expect to see signs of both Kingdoms. I believe God's desire is always on the side of healing and restoration. So we don't need to have any anxiety or hesitation to pray boldly and confidently for healing. We SHOULD so so. But we should also recognize that it is clear in this era that not everything turns out the way God wants it-- there are far too many examples of things that are not right. So we pray knowing that we live in this era where often our hopes are dashed and we do not see the promised restoration. But we also pray in hope, knowing that God is breaking into the world, and we want to align with that hope.
So I believe your friend was quite right in praying boldly for your healing, and for celebrating that healing. I'm not saying it was her prayer, rather than other's more moderate prayers or even medical intervention or just pure dumb luck that made the difference. I'm simply saying it is good and right that your friend prayed for healing and celebrated it as a foretaste of the coming Kingdom when all will be healed.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
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There is power involved in prayer but we do not control that power. In the end prayer is an engagement with the divine. The most likely outcome of prayer is that we(the people praying) will be changed by engagement with that power we engage with. That may be why three of the four standard forms of prayer are from our perspective. Confession, Thanksgiving and Intercession are focused on the human experience while Adoration is focused on the Divine.
It is most easily understood when I am engaged in intercession. When I prayer for something to happen, if I am truly asking then I am also saying I am willing to be part of the solution. If it is healing, it may be through physical nursing, cooking a meal so the sick person will find it easy to eat or supporting medical research. If it is for a disaster then maybe through contributing to the appeals. Sometimes we may not be able to or the answer might be that our opinion needs to change.
Jengie
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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My wife had primary breast cancer about 4 years ago, Dormouse. On that occasion they treated it with radiotherapy and the lump cleared up.
She'd detected it in time and had persisted even though her GP couldn't find anything at first.
Then, 18 months ago, she was diagnosed with secondary breast cancer. It had returned in a less detectable form, a mass rather than a lump, and had spread to her pelvis, spine and liver.
We were told that it was controllable, but incurable.
So, what happened there? The power of prayer was evident the first time but wore off?
No, I don't think of it in those terms.
I'll be honest, we aren't praying for healing as such - although some of our more earnest charismatic evangelical friends are.
Rather we are praying, as in the words of the old hymn, 'Father, hear the prayer we offer ...', for 'strength that we may ever, live our lives courageously.'
https://hymnary.org/text/father_hear_the_prayer_we_offer_not_for
Recently, I met up with some dear friends from my more full-on charismatic evangelical days and they offered to pray for us. Mercifully, they didn't go in for any heebie-geebie stuff and I was pleased to note that they'd introduced some liturgical material into their repertoire.
I was moved to tears by their concern but I'm afraid I couldn't go along with some of their assumptions and the way they pitched things.
'Gamaliel, I pray that God would plant a seed of hope ... yadda yadda yadda ...'
Sorry guys, I'd far rather be realistic and trust the diagnosis and make preparation to steel ourselves for when the time comes.
My wife openly talks about her death and is making plans for it. We want it to be a 'good death' as they used to say in years gone by. I hope it works out that way.
We have no idea how long we've got. It could be 2 years, it could be 5, it may not be anywhere near as long as that. Nobody knows. We only know what the average is for people with that form of cancer, which doesn't tell us a great deal as it depends on age, circumstance and a whole range of other factors.
I wasn't upset or offended by my friends' prayers that Mrs Gamaliel and I would 'come to a place of faith, a place of hope ...'
One of them even prayed that we'd come to 'believe for healing' even though we didn't believe in the possibility at the moment.
As if we can 'control' or regulate the progress or otherwise of the cancer by how fervently we pray or believe.
Sorry. That's not how I see it.
I can't work anything up.
What we can do is draw on the resources we have and what hidden resources of inner strength and fortitude we may find that the Lord has endowed us with.
I have no idea how things will pan out. We might go to pieces, we may find it our 'finest hour.'
I'm glad people are praying for us. I appreciate their concern.
I don't get cross or irritated by those who act all fervently charismatic about the whole thing. I just think, 'Ah well, they'll face something similar themselves one day and I hope they come to terms with it when that time comes ...'
I can't theologise or pontificate.
I can only speak as I find.
And this is as I find.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
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Oh, Dormouse, that is wonderful news!
I am now just over seven years past my first diagnosis of Stage III Inflammatory Breast Carcinoma (aka "the Big Cancer"), which involved six months of chemo, followed by surgery, and radiation; five years past my second, unrelated early-stage cancer, which resulted in a double mastectomy; three years since the original metastasis into my lower spine; 19 months past the secondary metastasis into my hip and brain.
Through it all, I have been conscious of the many people, from many faiths, who pray for me. I think those prayers help give me acceptance and hope - and I do think they're a reason I'm still here and functioning at a remarkably high level (considering).
I would never turn down an offer of prayer, although I'm aware that healing is not apt to come in this life. And I give thanks for all those who care enough to put in a good word for me.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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I was introduced to the concept of "annoying Samaritan" a while ago. An AnSam is someone who, in good will and kindness, tries to be helpful, but actually interferes and creates problems.
I think a measure of praying for others has least as much to do with them comforting themselves about their faith and how the world and God are ordered than it has with the person with cancer, a family member in distress and other suffering. They pray for other people in their actions, but the heart of it is themselves and reassuring themselves. I am okay with people deriving comfort from prayer themselves but imposing their view of the miraculous and God intervening in the natural order is distinctly bothersome. Comfort from prayer yes, intervention to cure etc no.
[ 29. December 2017, 19:10: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Surely there is something, though, in seeking to understand the 'Annoying Samaritan' and putting up with them to some extent?
They too may one day have to face what those to whom they offer some bogus comfort are facing. In that day, surely it behoves us to show them mercy and grace, however annoying and irritating they may have been?
That said, I'm some deserve a good kick up the pants ...
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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Thank you for all that you've said. I'm particularly moved Gamaliel, as so often, by your words.
No prophet do you mind if I keep and reuse your word, an AnSam. It makes me squirm when I think back and remember occasions when I reckon I fitted that bill. I hope I don't so much these days and won't again. Thank you.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Dormouse
Gamaliel
Rossweisse
You are the answer to my unsaid prayer.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Thank you for all that you've said. I'm particularly moved Gamaliel, as so often, by your words.
No prophet do you mind if I keep and reuse your word, an AnSam. It makes me squirm when I think back and remember occasions when I reckon I fitted that bill. I hope I don't so much these days and won't again. Thank you.
Oh yes please do. I think it's a helpful term. The origin to my ears was related to "good works tourism" where someone canvases for donations so they can travel somewhere to help build a school or dig a well etc for the "less fortunate" (or as my late aunt would have said, the "heathen"). It's about making the AmSam feel good more so than those "helped".
[Disclaimer]
I am rather jaded this Christmas as my father goes in and out of hospital re likely losing his sight totally in the next few months, a friend's husband dying of cancer in his early 50s, my sister's husband walking out just before Xmas and having to travel unexpectedly to help. "Faith without works is nothing", is my rigid retreat since other crises in the past. "Get off your knees and do something" is my second. Kind regards to those recovering and to those not, is the best I can authentically do, though I do go through the motions where politeness and decorum is required.
[/end disclaimer]
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Someone once told me prayer was not about changing the mind of God but changing our minds in God. I certainly agree with how you have been looking at prayer for calmness or serenity.
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
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All the best to you on the 3rd, Dormouse.
Prayer itself has no power as far as I'm concerned! Having friends who wil, I know, support me if I feel a bit wobbly occasionally is reassuring, but prayers will not alter my mostly relaxed attitude to the cancer. It helps, I suppose, knowing that I've had a long life so far! I just get on with taking the pills (a better and effective treatment for older women it seems) and with everyday life, and can honestly say that the cancer stayes in the back of my mind. Next check-up on 10th.
[ 30. December 2017, 14:07: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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I'm astounded at the burden of your friends' delusions that you and your wife carry so lightly G.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Why is that so astounding?
They could believe the moon was made of green cheese. That doesn't alter how well-intentioned they were. Besides, these particular pals live 80 miles away and we don't see them that often these days.
It'd be a different thing if we surrounded by that sort of thing week by week.
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm astounded at the burden of your friends' delusions that you and your wife carry so lightly G.
There is simply no limit to the cr*p theology and psychology you will have thrown in your face when you are in cancer treatments
[Voice of experience]
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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We have found that too, Gallit, but most people know us well enough not to try it on.
Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on
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Not for the first time, I find myself awed by the people who post here and equally but adversely awed by the utter pillocks they have to encounter out there in the real world.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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Perhaps, then, I can just pray for you Gamaliel, and for Mrs G-- for strength, for courage, and that your home would be filled with love, with laughter and joy, with good wine and great friends and family. For relief from pain and fear.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
There is simply no limit to the cr*p theology and psychology you will have thrown in your face when you are in cancer treatments ...
"God doesn't give us more than we can handle." (How do I loathe this? Let me count the ways.)
And the second is like unto it: "Everything happens for a reason."
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps, then, I can just pray for you Gamaliel, and for Mrs G-- for strength, for courage, and that your home would be filled with love, with laughter and joy, with good wine and great friends and family. For relief from pain and fear.
You can certainly do so, Cliffdweller, but I'm afraid Mrs G wouldn't be able to imbibe a great deal of the wine as she is meant to go easy on it due to the drug she's taking.
Meanwhile, I don't think my charismatic evangelical friends are pillocks, or at least no more than I was when I was more that way inclined.
To be fair to them, I've encountered worse elsewhere - 2nd, 3rd or 14th hand accounts of people who only drank cabbage water and whose cancer cleared up ... Yadda yadda yadda ...
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
There is simply no limit to the cr*p theology and psychology you will have thrown in your face when you are in cancer treatments ...
"God doesn't give us more than we can handle." (How do I loathe this? Let me count the ways.)
And the second is like unto it: "Everything happens for a reason."
Turns out,
there's a card for that.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
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Oh, thank you, Cliffdweller. That's a card I would have appreciated. (Not that I didn't appreciate lots of other cards - knowing that someone is thinking of you and cares enough to put evidence thereof into the actual mail is always a blessing - but this one is special.)
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
There is simply no limit to the cr*p theology and psychology you will have thrown in your face when you are in cancer treatments ...
"God doesn't give us more than we can handle." (How do I loathe this? Let me count the ways.)
And the second is like unto it: "Everything happens for a reason."
I just read this out to the missus. Her response? 'Oh fuck off!', that's WITH you ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
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Whew!
Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on
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Thank you all for sharing your stories, for the generous PMs I've received, and for your considered answers to my question.
I am in awe of people's strength...I'm not sure how sanguine I could be when/if faced with a diagnosis of terminal. But for now, we're looking at a lumpectomy and further radiation/hormone therapy.
God bless all of you - give you strength, laughter, serenity and whatever else you need. This thread and your responses on it remind me again how much I love The Ship.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Things have got very dark recently, grim. More so than usual, for a good few weeks. Some of the dips within that have been... intense. As bad as anything over 8 years ago. Which was bad Staring death in the face for 6 months recently was nowt.
Of course I've prayed. Without hope. With raw fervour. With, "You've GOT to do something. But you won't, you can't.".
One day last week, in a hidden, deserted hinterland wood in the middle of Leicester that nobody but me goes to (I leave markers), I looked up at the sky through the twig canopy and remembered what the secret to survival was. Gratitude.
He did.
[ 31. December 2017, 13:08: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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Nice post Martin.
Indeed so, gratitude and a thankful heart is key. No matter if one is a believer or an atheist.
In many ways I think people are all believers of one sort or another because blowing gratitude into thin air doesn’t cut the mustard much.
As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so goes the power of Prayer.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Why is that so astounding?
They could believe the moon was made of green cheese. That doesn't alter how well-intentioned they were. Besides, these particular pals live 80 miles away and we don't see them that often these days.
It'd be a different thing if we surrounded by that sort of thing week by week.
You, Sir, are a big minded, big hearted man. And a bloody dour northerner to boot. Not daft. I'm afraid I'd LOVE to be there if they were in your congregation and lived next door.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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That's very nice of you to say that, Martin.
I am, in fact, Anglo-Welsh but have lived in the North of England most of my adult life. I studied in Leeds and stuck around afterwards.
I moved here to Cheshire about 11 years ago now.
I love my charismatic evangelical friends to bits, but if they lived next door or if I had to worship alongside them week by week I might find my patience somewhat strained ...
I might not be as big hearted and patient as you think I am.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Thank God for that! Otherwise, beneath your saintly perfection, there would be bodies.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Bodies or 'bogies'?
Posted by roybart (# 17357) on
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Coincidentally, I have just been reading about the nature of prayer, the various forms of prayers, etc.
Even as a child I found it difficult to pray for specific outcomes. I don't know why. Currently, my petitions involve silence, asking God to help the person or collectivity in need of help, and thanking Him. The prayer consists solely of the words "Please give Your help to ... [whomever]" repeated slowly while focusing my mind on the person or group I am praying for.
Dormouse said something that I have come to feel strongly since joining the Ship: "This thread and your responses remind me again how much I love the Ship." It's wonderful how even small details in Shipmates' posts, accumulating over time, give me a sense of who you (are at least in terms of the discussion here). Knowing you leads to wanting you to be well.
For Dormouse, Gamaliel, and Mrs. Gamaliel:
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Thank you, roybart.
Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on
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Indeed, Roybart, thank you.
I echo too the lovely words of Cliffdweller. That's what I wish for all of us, cancer sufferers or not.
May 2018 bring us all a release from dis-ease, and instead bring us closer to the One who brings ease and strength. (usually...)
And following on from the card that Cliffdweller linked to, I found another one that sums up my thoughts beautifully: "If this is God’s plan, God is a terrible planner. (No offense if you’re reading this, God. You did a great job with that other stuff, like waterfalls and pandas.)"
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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I too have been enjoying the cards cliffdweller linked to.
I have thought for a long time that maybe we should see prayer as a way of aligning our will with God's, rather than a shopping list of demands (for supplication). And that the adoration, confession and thanksgiving parts relate to mindfulness (if you follow the ACTS pattern of prayer.)
Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I have thought for a long time that maybe we should see prayer as a way of aligning our will with God's, rather than a shopping list of demands (for supplication). And that the adoration, confession and thanksgiving parts relate to mindfulness (if you follow the ACTS pattern of prayer.)
I don't think I'd ever pray for the sick at all, if I saw it as merely a way of aligning my will with God's. I don't want my will to be aligned with anything if that means that I'd be OK with people I love suffering or dying. What I want is for them to get better, and my sole motive for praying is to ask that as a favour from an all-powerful God.
I know, of course, that prayer isn't magic, and that God will ultimately refuse to grant the prayers for the continued life of each human being, and I trust that he has his good reasons for this. A side effect of prayer may well be increased trust in God and confidence that the outcome of every illness is in his hands, and that in the end all will be well. But that's not why I do it. I do it because I want the people I love who are ill to get better. If I didn't think that there was at least the possibility of a miracle, I wouldn't bother.
I don't know whether the outcome of the prayer in the OP was an "answer" in the sense of an intervention by God to ensure one possible result rather than another. I'm not sure that anyone could know that - even if the result were outside the normal range of expectations, even if it were inexplicable to medical science, that wouldn't prove that it was a miracle, or that the miracle (if there was one) was triggered by the prayer.
I think that if you believe in God at all, you have to accept that it's at least possible that God sometimes intervenes, and thus might have done so when something non-trivial that was prayed for happens, but I'm not aware of any fool-proof way to test that. I think you can be thankful to God regardless, though, because it's not only the miraculous that he's God of.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Someone I met a few years ago, who set up housing options for young people made homeless, things like Nightstop and longer term supported living, said that when she prayed, God's answer was often that if she thought the particular provision she was organising was needed then she was going to be the answer.
What I was trying to suggest was that if praying for the sick or dying on a prayer list, surely my response should be holding them in prayer, but also what can I do to help? Is it appropriate for me to get involved? How can I be the hands and feet on earth?
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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That's sincerely, genuinely and the edge of movingly true for you eliab. I'll never knock that. This being Purgatory, I believe in God at all, but do not accept that He ever intervenes beyond His provision and in the quantum tunnelling effect that his yearning has the other side of ours. Talking of which, in a desperate, dark place recently I was reminded by the sky of the need for gratitude. It lifts me now beyond the window.
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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We may be overthinking the mystery of prayer.
Person A and Person B both get cancer. They both pray to God. Person A gets cured, Person B does not. Person A give thanks to God for being healed.
We twist and turn and conclude:
1) Prayer does not work or God does not exist.
Or
2) God loves Person A more and could not give a rats behind about Person B
Or
3) God simply is cold and fickle.
Conclusion 1 is atheism, Conclusion 2 or 3 is misotheism (God is an evil being).
But maybe we are overthinking, all we can do is pray what we desire, and let the chips fall where they do, trusting in a God of love, whatever it happens.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
What I was trying to suggest was that if praying for the sick or dying on a prayer list, surely my response should be holding them in prayer, but also what can I do to help? Is it appropriate for me to get involved? How can I be the hands and feet on earth?
Indirectly by paying your taxes (which fund the NHS)
Directly by visiting them.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Trusting Him in what regard A_B?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
What I was trying to suggest was that if praying for the sick or dying on a prayer list, surely my response should be holding them in prayer, but also what can I do to help? Is it appropriate for me to get involved? How can I be the hands and feet on earth?
Indirectly by paying your taxes (which fund the NHS)
Directly by visiting them.
This is very interesting.
In the OT there are instances when God rejects the prayers of unrighteous people. The NT doesn't say much about this, but there's still an implication that not all prayers are pleasing to God.
If prayer has to mesh neatly with action then it could be argued that a selfish person has no business praying for the wellbeing of the poor, and a jealous person shouldn't pray for someone else's success. After all, such prayers can turn us into hypocrites, and contribute to our already lengthy tally of sins!
And as has been said earlier, praying for miraculous healing is also a problematic exercise, despite biblical examples. It's clear that very few of us have what it takes to achieve the desired results by praying for 'miracles' - and we can even do ourselves or others harm this way. So such prayers are apparently abortive, maybe even rejected by God as sinful.
All things considered, it seems particularly difficult for Christians to pitch their prayers correctly according to their circumstances, faith levels and their status with God. AFAICS, other religions don't seem to have such a big problem with this.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I have thought for a long time that maybe we should see prayer as a way of aligning our will with God's, rather than a shopping list of demands (for supplication). And that the adoration, confession and thanksgiving parts relate to mindfulness (if you follow the ACTS pattern of prayer.)
I don't think I'd ever pray for the sick at all, if I saw it as merely a way of aligning my will with God's. I don't want my will to be aligned with anything if that means that I'd be OK with people I love suffering or dying. What I want is for them to get better, and my sole motive for praying is to ask that as a favour from an all-powerful God.
I know, of course, that prayer isn't magic, and that God will ultimately refuse to grant the prayers for the continued life of each human being, and I trust that he has his good reasons for this.
See, I think the evidence from Scripture and from Jesus' ministry is that healing, restoration and life are ALWAYS God's will. I will pray for all those things with the assumption that I am praying for the coming Kingdom in doing so.
I also don't think we can assume that when something bad happens there was a "divine reason" (see card above). I think there are clearly things that happen in this world that are not God's will-- genocide, child rape or really any rape, abuse, hatred, war. I don't have any problem adding some natural things-- disease, birth defects, etc-- to that list. Scripture tells us "the last enemy to be defeated is death"-- which tells us there will be death up until the new Kingdom, but also tells us death is "the enemy". So praying against that is not being out of alignment with God's will.
All of which I think you're pointing to in your last two paragraphs.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I don't know whether the outcome of the prayer in the OP was an "answer" in the sense of an intervention by God to ensure one possible result rather than another. I'm not sure that anyone could know that - even if the result were outside the normal range of expectations, even if it were inexplicable to medical science, that wouldn't prove that it was a miracle, or that the miracle (if there was one) was triggered by the prayer.
I think that if you believe in God at all, you have to accept that it's at least possible that God sometimes intervenes, and thus might have done so when something non-trivial that was prayed for happens, but I'm not aware of any fool-proof way to test that. I think you can be thankful to God regardless, though, because it's not only the miraculous that he's God of.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
Prayer is a way of indicating to God what we most care about. Reflecting and focusing our deepest wishes. I wrote an essay on it once. Reducing that to asking for things is to dumb down the whole meaning of prayer.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
That's true, but it's asking for things that causes us problems! Saying thank you, telling God how great he is - there's no problem with that.
Once we start petitioning God (which I suspect is what a huge percentage of non-liturgical, personal prayer consists of) we're in the difficult realm of who, what, why, where, how and when.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's true, but it's asking for things that causes us problems! Saying thank you, telling God how great he is - there's no problem with that.
Once we start petitioning God (which I suspect is what a huge percentage of non-liturgical, personal prayer consists of) we're in the difficult realm of who, what, why, where, how and when.
We are told specifically to ask for our daily bread. It doesn't get any clearer! I think that any honestly meant prayer ascends. Also, where possible , it should be linked to (appropriate) action. No-one wants at be an Ansam.
I find the best guide is what the catechism describes as the six corporal works of mercy:
- Feed the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
House the homeless
instruct the ignorant ( education)
Visit the sick and imprisoned
Comfort the dying.
BTW - Has anyone told the Tory Party?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's true, but it's asking for things that causes us problems! Saying thank you, telling God how great he is - there's no problem with that.
Once we start petitioning God (which I suspect is what a huge percentage of non-liturgical, personal prayer consists of) we're in the difficult realm of who, what, why, where, how and when.
Is it a problem when your kids ask you for things-- even Impractical things? Jesus used this example to teach us that it's ok to ask God for stuff. Asking for things like healing and restoration helps align us to Gods heart. The problem is more when we try to parse why one is answered and another not, rather than recognizing the "now" and "not yet"
Of the kingdom means not everything turns out (in the short term) as God desires
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
But why shouldn't it, if God's all powerful?
Once again the faith is Not Making Sense.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
jacobsen and cliffdweller
Yes, the NT tells to petition God in prayer, but this thread highlights some of the problems of doing so.
Some Christians are accused of perpetuating unrealistic (often 'miraculous') expectations of prayer, while others are criticised for keeping their expectations too low.
I suppose it takes wisdom and spiritual maturity to get it right (and also an adequate degree of righteous living, no doubt), but I wonder whether the majority of Christians are blessed with either!
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
jacobsen and cliffdweller
Yes, the NT tells to petition God in prayer, but this thread highlights some of the problems of doing so.
Some Christians are accused of perpetuating unrealistic (often 'miraculous') expectations of prayer, while others are criticised for keeping their expectations too low.
I suppose it takes wisdom and spiritual maturity to get it right (and also an adequate degree of righteous living, no doubt), but I wonder whether the majority of Christians are blessed with either!
Whether our "expectations" (I thought we were talking about requests?) are too high or too low, the issue is about making the request in the first place.
According to RC teaching we are all sinners, even the best of us, so our personal moral status is not necessarily relevant.
I would agree that second-guessing why something works out the way we wish is not a particularly useful exercise. If it doesn't work out as we wished, it doesn't mean that the prayer was not answered. And yes, sometimes we ourselves are the hands and feet upon earth.
[ 04. January 2018, 10:38: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
The NT does say that we should pray with faith, which one could interpret as expectation.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
I'm thinking of Dormouse and her recovery after reading the thread for the first time today. It's the 6th here, a hot and windy day straight from the pit.
I reckon this thread showcases the best of the Ship.
I was struck when cliffdweller mentioned that cancer was evil. My instinctive reaction to that is: huh? Is Ross River Fever evil? Is the mosquito who bit you and gave you Ross River Fever evil? Is cancer an evil, as distinct from evil? Naah. But I'd like to hear some thoughts on this if people want to talk about it.
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on
:
'course not...it's a disease and a medical event (diagnosis-treatment-recovery)
Because of its seriousness it has also become an industry (research and drugs) and even a lifestyle (how to survive and maybe spend the rest of your life as this thing called "a survivor" so that it becomes your identity (or an inordinate part of it)
And don't get me started on causes ... like "an uncomfortable relationship with my gender" as told me by a properly licenced practicing psychologist I know who met me by chance as I was shopping with my chemo-baldy-head
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Is cancer evil?
It's effects aren't very pleasant.
I'd tend not to use that kind of language to describe it but I may think differently when the current dormant state of my wife's cancer gives way to a more virulent phase.
Happy to discuss, but I'm not sure how much good it'd do us.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But why shouldn't it, if God's all powerful?
Once again the faith is Not Making Sense.
Not a theistic faith no. Not 99.99..%
The ground of being CANNOT be 'all powerful' in any meaningful sense, as 'all powerful' is itself meaningless.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's true, but it's asking for things that causes us problems! Saying thank you, telling God how great he is - there's no problem with that.
Once we start petitioning God (which I suspect is what a huge percentage of non-liturgical, personal prayer consists of) we're in the difficult realm of who, what, why, where, how and when.
Not being very good at asking for things, I'd not thought of this difficulty. I suppose my prayers are more like flagging things up as points of concern. Not sure how common this type of prayer is.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But why shouldn't it, if God's all powerful?
Once again the faith is Not Making Sense.
Quite a lot of theological conundrums can be solved simply by reconsidering where these sorts of assumptions come from and whether they're necessary
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's true, but it's asking for things that causes us problems! Saying thank you, telling God how great he is - there's no problem with that.
Once we start petitioning God (which I suspect is what a huge percentage of non-liturgical, personal prayer consists of) we're in the difficult realm of who, what, why, where, how and when.
Not being very good at asking for things, I'd not thought of this difficulty. I suppose my prayers are more like flagging things up as points of concern. Not sure how common this type of prayer is.
It would be interesting to know if there's been any research into the methods and content of personal prayer, and if the differences reflect sociological or psychological phenomena, for example. I would expect churchgoers' and non-churchgoers' 'Christian' prayers to be quite different.
Many years ago the minister of my old church said that most of the time he prayed without words. AFAIK he never tried to explain or promote this practice among the congregation, but alongside any other virtues it has, I imagine it gets the individual away from the complications of petitionary prayers....
[ 06. January 2018, 21:54: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The NT does say that we should pray with faith, which one could interpret as expectation.
Or trust.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But why shouldn't it, if God's all powerful?
Once again the faith is Not Making Sense.
Quite a lot of theological conundrums can be solved simply by reconsidering where these sorts of assumptions come from and whether they're necessary
Looks like we agree!
What about the assumption of the demiurge? Belief in human-demon hybrids?
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
:
Is there a general assumption that the praers, any prayers, are going somewhere, being heard by something other than other people - if they are said allowed - and then being considered and acted upon?
As a sceptic and an atheist, I do not spend a second on any prayer for remission or cure of the cancer; I just keep as well as I can take the pils and I am lucky that I really do not worry!
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Why do you ask?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The NT does say that we should pray with faith, which one could interpret as expectation.
Or trust.
But how does one ensure that expectation is banished from one's prayer life while trust is welcomed?
Well, Christianity is a complicated religion. Its high expectations (of trust, or anything else) and its 'all are welcome' ethos sit uneasily together, creating different classes of believers and different levels of faith, depending on a range of criteria.
As a result, I'm sure there are different levels of prayer effectiveness, and it does no good to get above oneself, as it were, unless one is willing to put in all the work. As with life in general.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Is there a general assumption that the praers, any prayers, are going somewhere, being heard by something other than other people - if they are said allowed - and then being considered and acted upon?
Yes, for many people. And there may be that general assumption whether the prayers are said aloud or silently.
quote:
As a sceptic and an atheist, I do not spend a second on any prayer for remission or cure of the cancer . . . .
Obviously. But surely it doesn’t come as a surprise that people who do believe in God, however they understand the divine, might have a perspective different from yours on whether there is any reason to spend time praying or whether prayers are heard.
I do hope all goes and remains well with you.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
my prayers are more like flagging things up as points of concern. Not sure how common this type of prayer is.
Very common
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
I have two quick questions:
1. Is there any way you could be convinced that prayer has no effect whatsoever outside of your own person/body?
2. If it were, then, demonstrated to you that praying for people (intercessory prayer) was, let's say 50% of the time actually harmful to the person being prayed for, would you stop doing it?
K.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
There have been some studies into the effectiveness of prayer. One study of hospital patients showed that some of them did in fact do worse when they knew (or thought) they were being prayed for.
The problem seemed to be psychological. It was suggested that some not very religious people (but not outright atheists) are made anxious by offers of prayer. If the idea of a benevolent God is unclear to them they may get very worried at the thought of the judgmental divine gaze.
I also think that for people who only come across prayer in situations of dire need, an offer of prayer risks making them feel they must be really sick, even at death's door, which can be very distressing for them.
In any case, in a pluralistic culture offers of prayer must be made very sensitively, if at all, or else harm could well be caused. Or at the very least, offence.
Otherwise, I don't understand how praying for someone's well-being risks causing them harm. What kind of harm? In the OT God tells Jeremiah to stop praying for the people, because he's decided to punish them for their wrongdoing. But it's not the praying itself that's the root of the problem....
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
:
Also there is the folk idea that you only pray for someone if they are dying. Yes I can trace the roots but the folk idea far exceeds the origin.
Jengie
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There have been some studies into the effectiveness of prayer. One study of hospital patients showed that some of them did in fact do worse when they knew (or thought) they were being prayed for.
The problem seemed to be psychological. It was suggested that some not very religious people (but not outright atheists) are made anxious by offers of prayer. If the idea of a benevolent God is unclear to them they may get very worried at the thought of the judgmental divine gaze.
I also think that for people who only come across prayer in situations of dire need, an offer of prayer risks making them feel they must be really sick, even at death's door, which can be very distressing for them.
In any case, in a pluralistic culture offers of prayer must be made very sensitively, if at all, or else harm could well be caused. Or at the very least, offence.
Otherwise, I don't understand how praying for someone's well-being risks causing them harm. What kind of harm? In the OT God tells Jeremiah to stop praying for the people, because he's decided to punish them for their wrongdoing. But it's not the praying itself that's the root of the problem....
My comment is directed to fact that no modern study of the efficacy of prayer show one iota of help to the person being prayed for. However, a number of studies (refs coming soon!) have shown that a variety of kinds of prayer and meditation help the petitioner ('Lord, heal me') but not others. In short, everyone from believers in Navaho medicine men, to folk religions of the inuit, to evangelical Christians, and others, benefit themselves through prayer/meditation, but not others. If you know (or are convinced) that praying for someone will (a) do nothing or quite possibly (b) make them worse, will you still pray for people?
K.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
People are obviously helped by being prayed for, it's a form of social grooming.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
If you know (or are convinced) that praying for someone will (a) do nothing or quite possibly (b) make them worse, will you still pray for people?
K.
Prayers having no effect on others is one thing, but prayers making things worse for others is something else entirely. I did try to run with your scenario, but it seems that I was barking up the wrong tree. Please give some examples of how you see this negativity coming about.
Certainly, if someone asks you not to pray for them I don't see why you'd choose to defy them. A clergyman once told me that his sick daughter had asked church folk not to pray for her. I can't remember if she only wanted to be excluded from public intercessory prayers, or from personal prayers as well, but in any case, I think her wishes should have been respected. AFAIK she wasn't prayed for publicly.
However, if I'd been closer to them I'd probably have prayed for her family members.
[ 09. January 2018, 13:43: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
Here is a summary of the outcome of the largest-ever study of the efficacy of prayer. Knowing this, are people still willing to pray for others (and having them know they are being prayed for) with two possible outcomes: (1) no effect whatsoever or (2) possibly impede their recovery?
K.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
This is similar to the research I referred to earlier, but I don't think it's the same test.
I'll look for a link, but as I said, the explanation given for the poorer results in the text I read was that sick people who are not very religious are essentially made nervous if they know that appeals are being made to a God whom they don't perceive as loving or forgiving. Psychological negativity may impede physical healing, as we know.
By contrast, when religious people know they're being prayed for, they may feel loved and supported by the Christian community, and surrounded by God's presence and blessings. These positive feelings are likely in themselves to aid recovery, quite apart from any divine intervention that may or may not occur.
Maybe the moral of the story is not to pray for agnostics and/or 'cultural Christians', etc. Or if you do, don't tell them. As I said above, sensitivity applies in a pluralistic society.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
This is precisely my point.
1. The faithful: 'Prayer really does heal people external to the one praying.'
2. The latest science argues that not only does it have no positive effects all, but any effects it does have are harmful.
3. The faithful. (a) There must be something wrong with that science because I know it works; (b) I'm going to do it anyway, if it does harm people because the Bible tells me to do it.
The study in question was published in 2006 in The American Heart Journal (DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1067/mhj.2002.122172
, if you have access).
K.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
I think your biases are getting in the way of further discussion on this. You're sticking to one interpretation of the test results, even though I've already offered an alternative perspective. We won't agree. Fair enough.
Malicious prayers said on behalf of unwilling agnostics may be commonplace where you live. If so, that's unfortunate. I'm part of a Christian community myself, and that situation isn't really a part of my experience. There are stories in the news of people who reject offers of prayer, but I've never come across that myself, except for the minister's daughter I mentioned above.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
I apologise, I'm not trying to be combative (mois?!), but simply read the results of the study. I do, however, think that this further highlights the dissonance (in some circles only, I admit) between science and religion. One cannot claim to admit the scientific method and then dismiss the results because God might have wanted the results to be different. If a doctor prescribes a particular medicine to treat a particular condition and it doesn't work, was there a problem with the prescription or a mismatch with your body, or did God not want you to get better?
What seems to have happened with this 2006 study (which is the one that got so much press back then). It received millions from the controversial Templeton Foundation, surely with the goal of proving with scientific methods that prayer heals people. When that failed, the religiously-motivated rejected their own results—not for scientific reasons, but for theological ones. You cannot have it and not have it.
K.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I apologise, I'm not trying to be combative (mois?!), but simply read the results of the study. I do, however, think that this further highlights the dissonance (in some circles only, I admit) between science and religion. One cannot claim to admit the scientific method and then dismiss the results because God might have wanted the results to be different. If a doctor prescribes a particular medicine to treat a particular condition and it doesn't work, was there a problem with the prescription or a mismatch with your body, or did God not want you to get better?
But your interpretation of the results is more extreme/harsher than those made by the researchers themselves. I've got to agree with Svtlana that it really does seem like you are guilty of the same biased/closed thinking you are (rightly) decrying. The phrase "I'm simply reading the results" has that same "just so" feel we often get from fundamentalists/literalists-- "there's only one way to read this and I've got it"-- again, especially when it goes beyond the statements made by the professionals who conducted the research.
[ 10. January 2018, 15:02: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[QUOTE]But your interpretation of the results is more extreme/harsher than those made by the researchers themselves.
In what way, exactly? A study was carried out that demonstrated that intercessory prayer (a) had no positive effects on people being prayed for and (b) had some negative effects on those who knew they were being prayed for. Since this study, no other study has produced results that counter it. My reading is at face value: intercessory prayer has nothing positive to contribute in helping people recover from health problems (in this case, recovery from heart-bypass surgery). I don't see a problem here.
K.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
Welcome back K. You are of course right in that the laws of physics aren't broken, ever. But because they are kept, people benefit from prayer.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
The act of prayer and/or meditation has repeatedly been shown to be demonstrably beneficial to the person doing the praying/meditating, but that it is (a) in no way unique to Christianity and (b) a different subject. What is not surprising to me (after my years in what I could call an extreme evangelical environment—HTB) is that the clear results of such a study (which was, after all, funded by a Christian organisation with a point to prove) do not seem to have changed the behaviour of many (any?) Christians. The result seems to be: 'Well, my intercessory prayers may be impeding people's recovery from illness, but I'm going to do it anyway because (a) it makes me feel good and (b) the Bible says I should do it.' Medical experts warn about drinking too much and I should probably cut back based on those studies and the resulting advice—but what I am not doing is pouring whiskey down the throats of others.
There are, of course, other possibilities or explanations. Perhaps the methods were flawed? Perhaps Elvis interfered? However, the contrary data has yet to materialise. The authors of the original study in the American Heart Journal promised a follow-up study, but it never materialised. Meanwhile, in the journals of both the AMA and BMA, researchers pleaded that no more money be wasted on this topic.
K.
PS. Nice to 'see' you too, Martin!
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
A study was carried out that demonstrated that intercessory prayer (a) had no positive effects on people being prayed for and (b) had some negative effects on those who knew they were being prayed for.
K.
I've not seen the study but find it difficult to envisage how anyone could determine the effects of intercessory prayer. As for "negative" effects, they seem to be linked less to the fact of praying, than that the the person being prayed for new about it, and objected!
There can be a patronising edge to "I'm praying for you" which could imply "and boy, do you need it!" - not in a good way. That would annoy anyone. Best to carry on praying but shut up about it, unless, of course, prayers are requested, as they quite frequently are.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
A study was carried out that demonstrated that intercessory prayer (a) had no positive effects on people being prayed for and (b) had some negative effects on those who knew they were being prayed for.
K.
I've not seen the study but find it difficult to envisage how anyone could determine the effects of intercessory prayer. As for "negative" effects, they seem to be linked less to the fact of praying, than that the the person being prayed for new about it, and objected!
There can be a patronising edge to "I'm praying for you" which could imply "and boy, do you need it!" - not in a good way. That would annoy anyone. Best to carry on praying but shut up about it, unless, of course, prayers are requested, as they quite frequently are.
'I've not seen the study, but…'. Come on. You can do anything but acknowledge the results of a scientific study. It was painful for Christians to admit that the earth revolved around the sun, or that humans were the product of evolution by natural selection, the same has happened to prayer. It is not like 'The Force' in Star Wars. Prayer cannot alter or effect anything external to the petitioner. All I am asking is that you engage, scientifically with the study, not with iron-age metaphysics.
K.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
One cannot claim to admit the scientific method and then dismiss the results because God might have wanted the results to be different.
I think you overstate this claim. Prayer is explicitly asking God do do something, so God must be considered to have a rather more active involvement than he would have in ensuring that gravity continues to point in the correct direction.
For me, the most interesting result is the anti-placebo effect where people who knew they were being prayed for had worse outcomes.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
One cannot claim to admit the scientific method and then dismiss the results because God might have wanted the results to be different.
I think you overstate this claim. Prayer is explicitly asking God do do something, so God must be considered to have a rather more active involvement than he would have in ensuring that gravity continues to point in the correct direction.
For me, the most interesting result is the anti-placebo effect where people who knew they were being prayed for had worse outcomes.
This situation is even more problematic than that.
'The man who prays is the one who thinks that God has arranged matters all wrong, but who also thinks that he can instruct God how to put them right.'
—Christopher Hitchens, Mortality
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on
:
Has anybody heard from Dormouse? How is she doing, do we know?
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on
:
Sorry. Just caught up on prayer thread.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
[K.
I've not seen the study but find it difficult to envisage how anyone could determine the effects of intercessory prayer. As for "negative" effects, they seem to be linked less to the fact of praying, than that the the person being prayed for knew about it, and objected!
'I've not seen the study, but…'. Come on. You can do anything but acknowledge the results of a scientific study.
K. [/QB][/QUOTE]
No, Komensky. My words stand exactly as written. I haven't seen the study and do find it difficult to envisage how the power or otherwise of intercessory prayer can be determined. Nothing to do with dismissing the results of the study, just saying I find it hard to imagine how it could work.
Of course, reading the study might tell me. Or not.
But please, don't make assumptions.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
Ye gods. Use proper code can't you?
If someone else makes a mistake, correct it in your quote of their post.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
No, Komensky. My words stand exactly as written. I haven't seen the study and do find it difficult to envisage how the power or otherwise of intercessory prayer can be determined. Nothing to do with dismissing the results of the study, just saying I find it hard to imagine how it could work.
Of course, reading the study might tell me. Or not.
But please, don't make assumptions.
The fallacy of the argument from incredulity.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
No, Komensky. My words stand exactly as written. I haven't seen the study and do find it difficult to envisage how the power or otherwise of intercessory prayer can be determined. Nothing to do with dismissing the results of the study, just saying I find it hard to imagine how it could work.
Of course, reading the study might tell me. Or not.
But please, don't make assumptions.
The fallacy of the argument from incredulity.
More assumptions. (sigh.)
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[QUOTE]But your interpretation of the results is more extreme/harsher than those made by the researchers themselves.
In what way, exactly? A study was carried out that demonstrated that intercessory prayer (a) had no positive effects on people being prayed for and (b) had some negative effects on those who knew they were being prayed for. Since this study, no other study has produced results that counter it. My reading is at face value: intercessory prayer has nothing positive to contribute in helping people recover from health problems (in this case, recovery from heart-bypass surgery). I don't see a problem here.
K.
My understanding is that when scientists or social scientists take a group of people and test them to establish whether a certain phenomenon has an effect, they also have to consider whether the outcome (or even the lack of an outcome) might be influenced by factors other than those they're focusing on.
Ideally those other factors have been taken into account in the selection process, the structure of the test, and with the use of control groups, etc. But in all cases adequate analysis has to be in in place before it makes sense to extrapolate the results to include all kinds of other, possibly very different, people.
This seems relevant to a discussion of the efficacy of prayer, since the impact of religion varies across a range of this-worldly phenomena: age, sex, social class, ethnic and/or cultural origins, level of education, family background, personality, the prevalent social and cultural conditions in the locale, the exact type and level of religiosity involved. IMO it would therefore make sense for the researchers not to ignore these factors in their test.
Moreover, the problem for which no test can compensate, ISTM, is that there's no way of ensuring that a particular group is not being prayed for. All the researchers know is that there some participants were prayed for 'officially' and some not. Yet prayer exists in almost all cultures. Why assume that official prayer is going to override unofficial prayer? I can't think of any theological justification for that. Indeed, I wonder if any of these researchers ever take any kind of theological perspective into account. The idea that prayer ought to produce straightforward, desirable results doesn't seem be an obvious 'Christian' or biblical understanding. But maybe prayer in other religions works like that. Have their been any tests into the outcomes of Muslim prayers?
Finally, googling suggests that most of these tests occur in the USA. It could be argued that this reveals more about American anxieties surrounding religion than it does about prayer as a theologically valid, and probably quite complex global phenomenon. But I suppose I would say that....
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
SvitlanaV2
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[QUOTE]But your interpretation of the results is more extreme/harsher than those made by the researchers themselves.
In what way, exactly? A study was carried out that demonstrated that intercessory prayer (a) had no positive effects on people being prayed for and (b) had some negative effects on those who knew they were being prayed for. Since this study, no other study has produced results that counter it. My reading is at face value: intercessory prayer has nothing positive to contribute in helping people recover from health problems (in this case, recovery from heart-bypass surgery). I don't see a problem here.
K.
I read the study you linked and the language used by the researchers themselves was far more moderate than the language you're using. I'm not denying it leaned in the direction you're claiming, just noting that the researchers themselves are far more reserved, particularly re any possible negative effects.
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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I have thought long and hard about whether or not I had anything meaningful to add to this discussion. The topic is one I have agonised over many times and in many situations and I have finally come to a place of relative peace about it all.
A bit of background: I grew up in the catholic tradition, married into the reformed evangelical tradition, had lots of experience of charismatic both evangelical and catholic and am now back worshipping in the catholic tradition.Along the way I spent a lot of time in Africa.
I have concluded:
1.Intercession is an important part of prayer but it is only a part. As I think Michael Ramsey once said it is about coming to God with people on your heart
2. Different traditions strongly influence how we talk about these things and often not helpfully! I know people who feel the need to tell others that they are praying for them as some sort of act of witness and so that (their words) "God gets the glory when they are healed". I know other people people who talk about the will of God in such a way that their hearers could only conclude that the suffering if they are not healed had been designed specifically for them
3. I find the research mentioned above challenging but would not want to stop praying for people until I had more information. However I firmly believe wisdom is required in how we pray and in deciding whether or not we tell people that we are praying. I have lost count of how many times I have prayed, said nothing but felt I should do something like call, write or visit and the timing of that interaction proved helpful to the other person. I say this not to big myself up, simply to tell the story
4. The whole realm of what the charismatic wing of the church calls prophecy is fraught with danger. I know too many people who died whilst claiming prophetic words of healing....but I also know others who were deeply comforted by the right word at the right time shared with them by someone who had prayed
5. Then there are the inexplicable happenings which I have seen with my own eyes on a few rare occasions. I too find the idea of thin places/ mystery deeply attractive. Sometimes, just sometimes when we pray something remarkable does seem to happen. The problem is the need some of us have to use the story (which usually changes, sometimes out of all recognition) to advance our own agendas
I think that's enough!
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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As long as people are comforted.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
I know. There is a veritable minefield in exploring these happenings. I'd really like to read a statistical study carried out by people with no axe to grind in any direction. Being dogmatic does us no favours in these situations ISTM.
Just being thankful when these inexplicable things happen is perhaps the best bet!
And for me, part of being thankful is taking the situation throughout to God in prayer. It's different for many of my friends who say they have no faith.
But the thankfulness is a commonality.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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I like your style MrsBeaky, I really do... BUT (you knew it was coming), it isn't extreme to deny magic. It isn't extreme, dogmatic (apart from in the ultimate etymology), explosive to have a (practically complete, all but exceptionless) physicalist worldview. Even for a Christian.
[ 14. January 2018, 14:41: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Confirmation bias is so strong. When my friend lost two young children, she did not see it as divine providence. But maybe 200 years ago, she might have done.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Yeaaaahhh. Gard juss wonnid two more liddle angels. He dint wonna leave one lonesome.
[ 14. January 2018, 14:59: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I like your style MrsBeaky, I really do... BUT (you knew it was coming), it isn't extreme to deny magic. It isn't extreme, dogmatic (apart from in the ultimate etymology), explosive to have a (practically complete, all but exceptionless) physicalist worldview. Even for a Christian.
I do apologise Martin- I'm not quite sure where it seemed like I was suggesting that such worldviews are extreme? It was never my intention. This is where a written conversation rather than a face to face one terrifies me as I hate being misunderstood or causing offence!
I recognise that I do believe things which you perhaps don't...but I am constantly reviewing my theology and praxis and eschew the dogmatism which the use of words like extreme could sometimes suggest!
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Confirmation bias is so strong. When my friend lost two young children, she did not see it as divine providence. But maybe 200 years ago, she might have done.
You see it's things like this that I was trying to address above. I've seen and heard some awful things. Confirmation bias can indeed be a very dangerous thing. Some of my African friends would probably take the view you mention above.
I cannot.
But I also cannot abandon the relationship which above all others has sustained me throughout my life.
And part, albeit a very small part of that life has involved inexplicable things. For me God is in everything and so also in those inexplicable things. My analytical brain however can see how that could so easily be overturned in rational argument but my heart just will not let me go.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Yeaaaahhh. Gard juss wonnid two more liddle angels. He dint wonna leave one lonesome.
Try again with correct spellings. Drunken dialect like this requires decoding and is highly annoying.
I could reasonably ask in similar for you to "pet eating in shrivelled anguish".
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Confirmation bias is so strong. When my friend lost two young children, she did not see it as divine providence. But maybe 200 years ago, she might have done.
You see it's things like this that I was trying to address above. I've seen and heard some awful things. Confirmation bias can indeed be a very dangerous thing. Some of my African friends would probably take the view you mention above.
I cannot.
But I also cannot abandon the relationship which above all others has sustained me throughout my life.
And part, albeit a very small part of that life has involved inexplicable things. For me God is in everything and so also in those inexplicable things. My analytical brain however can see how that could so easily be overturned in rational argument but my heart just will not let me go.
Well, that's fine. I'm skeptical that people become religious for rational reasons, no more than they fall in love.
I became a Christian and stopped being one, definitely not out of rationality. I became interested, and I lost interest. The odd (and interesting) thing is that these things are not controllable.
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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That is very interesting.
And bears thinking about.
And control is another whole field to be explored!
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I like your style MrsBeaky, I really do... BUT (you knew it was coming), it isn't extreme to deny magic. It isn't extreme, dogmatic (apart from in the ultimate etymology), explosive to have a (practically complete, all but exceptionless) physicalist worldview. Even for a Christian.
I do apologise Martin- I'm not quite sure where it seemed like I was suggesting that such worldviews are extreme? It was never my intention. This is where a written conversation rather than a face to face one terrifies me as I hate being misunderstood or causing offence!
I recognise that I do believe things which you perhaps don't...but I am constantly reviewing my theology and praxis and eschew the dogmatism which the use of words like extreme could sometimes suggest!
MrsBeaky, MrsBeaky. I totally retract my response to you. YOU could NEVER offend. And I take full responsibility for my misunderstanding. The apology is mine.
no..., just put on a strong mid-west American accent. I've not touched a drop.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
I'm sure there are studies into these things, although I doubt they're conclusive.
Regarding cancer, I read a few popular books on it a few years ago. The claim is that attitudes as well as lifestyle have an impact on its progress, so the 'spontaneous' recoveries may actually indicate changes that a sufferer has made, consciously or otherwise. One author, who wasn't a 'religious' person, felt that a positive spirituality of some sort was an invaluable element in responding to the disease.
Mind you, I still think we end up with the same problem I mentioned earlier. How do you know that non-religious people are never the beneficiaries of prayer, even if they don't pray themselves? Individual Christians and congregations often pray for unnamed groups of people in challenging circumstances: the homeless population of a city, the local hospital, people who are suffering poor health in a a particular or general context. Who's to say that these have no impact (whatever that means)?
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Me. There is no magic.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Just being thankful when these inexplicable things happen is perhaps the best bet!
And for me, part of being thankful is taking the situation throughout to God in prayer. It's different for many of my friends who say they have no faith.
But the thankfulness is a commonality.
That is very much the hub of what puts me on my knees ina closed room.
This isn’t to say I don’t sometimes make a short prayer for someone in need, or the general need of many. But underneath there is the feeling it won’t make any real difference.
It has been suggested that there is a greater degree of languishment in poorly people who know they are being prayed for. I wouldn’t know but think it would depend on a particular person and there circumstances.
Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Just being thankful when these inexplicable things happen is perhaps the best bet!
And for me, part of being thankful is taking the situation throughout to God in prayer. It's different for many of my friends who say they have no faith.
But the thankfulness is a commonality.
That is very much the hub of what puts me on my knees ina closed room.
This isn’t to say I don’t sometimes make a short prayer for someone in need, or the general need of many. But underneath there is the feeling it won’t make any real difference.
TBH this echoes my prayers - which so often contain the words "I know you could do this, but you're probably not going to" --- again, that sense that actually praying for a person/ group won't make much difference.
I especially feel like this during intercessory prayers at church - really, what use is the vague "we pray for those in war torn ares/ the homeless/ the whatever" unless it is a recognition that these people are in trouble and maybe we are the answer to prayer?
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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I'm such a hypocrite. I tell God He can't do a thing. And that helps.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Prove it. All I'm asking from people who believe that prayer is some kind of external power, like The Force, is that you be honest.
K.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Prove it. All I'm asking from people who believe that prayer is some kind of external power, like The Force, is that you be honest.
K.
@Komensky
Belief can be independent of proof. I think you are confusing belief with knowledge.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Prove it. All I'm asking from people who believe that prayer is some kind of external power, like The Force, is that you be honest.
K.
Eh? Prove what? That people recover without prayer?
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
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Sorry, quez, I misread your post. My apologies!
K.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, when we don't pray, remarkable things also happen. For example, people recover from cancer spontaneously. I don't know if anyone has ever done a statistical study of such things.
Prove it. All I'm asking from people who believe that prayer is some kind of external power, like The Force, is that you be honest.
K.
Misreading q. aside K., nobody here actually, practically, quantifiably, really believes that. Or in anything supernatural in their experience. Even though I've got my dog that did and then didn't bark in the night.
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
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On the subject of cancer apparently curing itself, I have never seen or heard of such a genuine case. It usually turns out that there wasn't cancer after all, or that various other circumstances and conditions were present. It is a rare case indeed whichends up with a don't know at the end of it.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dormouse:
[Regarding] intercessory prayers at church - really, what use is the vague "we pray for those in war torn ares/ the homeless/ the whatever" unless it is a recognition that these people are in trouble and maybe we are the answer to prayer?
Are you suggesting that we shouldn't pray for someone unless we can - and do - provide them with practical, physical help? I wondered about this myself in an earlier post.
Also, I've read books (by American evangelicals) which say that our petitionary prayers ought to be very specific. You come across a similar thing in self-help books; that if we want progress when we express our desires for the future they need to be very focused, rather than vague and formless.
OTOH, there's an unspoken sense in the moderate, mainstream churches that to be too specific is to invite failure. Congregational prayers especially can appear almost empty: 'We pray for....' You don't know what exactly you're praying for, what you want the outcome to be. IME our clergy never really explain why we do it this way.
What's even stranger is this habit of addressing God in the third person: 'We ask God to...' I'm afraid I really hate that. To me, it serves only to distance us from God. Why would I be sitting in church doing that? I find it truly painful.
[ 16. January 2018, 13:20: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Therefore our prayers should be declarations of OUR intent, what we're going to do about it, individually and collectively. Or they're utterly vacuous.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
On the subject of cancer apparently curing itself, I have never seen or heard of such a genuine case. It usually turns out that there wasn't cancer after all, or that various other circumstances and conditions were present. It is a rare case indeed whichends up with a don't know at the end of it.
I have. And I believe it was, in fact, divine healing-- a small foretaste of the Kingdom to come.
Bit it's impossible to prove that it wasn't a spontaneous remission or the result of a misdiagnosis.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Therefore our prayers should be declarations of OUR intent, what we're going to do about it, individually and collectively. Or they're utterly vacuous.
That seems sensible, but am I wrong in suggesting that a large number of Christians (Evos in particular?) wield prayer like The Force? Their are dozens and dozens of Christian self-help books on why God decided not to answer your prayer after all.
K.
Posted by Jude (# 3033) on
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I don't know whether your healing was due to prayer or not. Just be thankful that you are getting well.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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I do. It wasn't.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Therefore our prayers should be declarations of OUR intent, what we're going to do about it, individually and collectively. Or they're utterly vacuous.
That seems sensible, but am I wrong in suggesting that a large number of Christians (Evos in particular?) wield prayer like The Force? Their are dozens and dozens of Christian self-help books on why God decided not to answer your prayer after all.
K.
Aye, how do we square God's deism in all of our lives with His theism in the man Jesus?
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
On the subject of cancer apparently curing itself, I have never seen or heard of such a genuine case. It usually turns out that there wasn't cancer after all, or that various other circumstances and conditions were present. It is a rare case indeed whichends up with a don't know at the end of it.
I have. And I believe it was, in fact, divine healing-- a small foretaste of the Kingdom to come.
Bit it's impossible to prove that it wasn't a spontaneous remission or the result of a misdiagnosis.
Sorry (and for the 3rd in a row), but that's too many circles out, steps, an indefinite, vague, personal, subjective wish maybe three times removed. Nothing to build a theology upon, a practical, hopeful, evangelistic belief system on.
Nothing real at all.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Aye, how do we square God's deism in all ofour lives with His theism in the man Jesus?
Who is this “we” you’re talking about? I’m not trying to square God’s deism in anyone’s life. You’re the only one I’ve seen around here making this deist God/theist Jesus distinction—a distinction I, at least, don’t buy at all.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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We Nick; those of us confronted by the reality that God has ONLY intervened, for supernatural values of intervention, in Christ. Which is all of us.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We Nick; those of us confronted by the reality that God has ONLY intervened, for supernatural values of intervention, in Christ. Which is all of us.
No, it is not. You do not speak for me, and I would appreciate it if you’d stop presuming otherwise. And I suspect I’m not alone in that feeling.
It’s just another form of “You agree with me or you’re delusional.”
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Speak for yourself Nick. Put up. If you or anyone else has miracles on tap, with no degrees of separation, no doubt about it, please show us. Everything else is second hand delusion.
[ 17. January 2018, 13:52: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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This is a not entirely serious interjection, but on Monday there were a number of fire engines in action on the High Street, near the church. I am afraid my immediate thought was "Please let it be [the shop that has become a late night bar]". It was. My second thought was to wonder how much that had been prayed for, as too many late night services (Maundy Thursday vigil, Midnight Mass) have been accompanied by amateur bands at full volume. It also has a reputation for underage drinking and young girls being encouraged in and not always having a good experience.
Sadly, the shop has survived and is continuing to trade, according to the notice on the boarded up door.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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May be God wants it street pastored?
Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
That seems sensible, but am I wrong in suggesting that a large number of Christians (Evos in particular?) wield prayer like The Force? Their are dozens and dozens of Christian self-help books on why God decided not to answer your prayer after all.
K.
"Hmmmmm, self-serving those books are. Much bull-shit in them there is, hmmmmmm?"
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Speak for yourself Nick. Put up. If you or anyone else has miracles on tap, with no degrees of separation, no doubt about it, please show us. Everything else is second hand delusion.
I am speaking for myself, Martin. That's precisely why I said you don't need to. You can count me out of your "we" and "us" when you state what you consider to be obvious.
At this stage, I don't know why I should provide you with examples. Others have done just that, and you have dismissed what they've said, as you do preemptively here, as "delusions."
Here's the deal Martin: I share many of your beliefs, but not all of them. Nevertheless, even when I am unconvinced by your arguments, I respect that your beliefs are sincerely held, and that you did not arrive at them carelessly or without thought or even struggle. I would ask that you show me and others the same respect.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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It's not a matter of belief Nick. Or respect. It's a matter of fact. It's a matter of fact that God does not suspend the laws of physics in any demonstrable, transferable way for anyone. Not since He walked the Earth. Not in healing, or prophecy, or tongues.
We can't do grown-up Christianity until we do that fact.
If you want to declare your belief that you have experienced a suspension of the laws of physics and that that has at least equality here with the fact that you have not, fine.
I respect that.
And I refute it.
Utterly.
Without compromise.
As there is no warrant whatsoever for doing otherwise.
I don't regard your insistence as disrespectful.
Please don't regard mine as such.
Even if it were, that's not the issue.
We're God's magic now. Nothing else is.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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Looking back over posts, perhaps I misread your statements about how we—meaning everyone—can face what you consider to be an obvious reality as suggesting that we all share that view of reality. If I did misread, apologies.
But the fact is that I don't share your view of reality, and I simply don’t buy into the assumptions present in your question about how "we" can square "God's deism in all of our lives with His theism in the man Jesus."
Meanwhile, I have to wonder again what the point of accepting your invitation to share experiences or thoughts might be when you’ve already "refuted" them in advance without even knowing what they are. God can’t possibly know the future, but you can refute experiences before you’ve heard them?
So there we are.
[ 17. January 2018, 18:28: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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That, Sir, is more than decent of you. Your first para does all the work I should have done. So the apology is mine.
Please share your experience and you have my word I'll do whatever is necessary to make you feel respected by me.
Which ain't going to be easy! Not because I don't, you know I do, as on the Kerygmania Unto Us thread. But because I'm an ill bred thug. So I need to address your final paragraph.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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Thanks Martin. I think we’ve got the respect thing sorted out.
A response will likely take a little longer and more thought than I can muster right now, or likely tonight. (It's 6:30 p.m. here as I write this.). I'll do my best tomorrow.
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
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My late mother used to say that she could feel it when people were praying for her. (She liked the idea of the Ship's prayer thread, upon which the sun never sets.)
Since my first cancer diagnosis, a little more than seven years ago, I can say the same. I really do believe it helps, and I don't think it's "magic."
Even if someone doesn't believe in God, perhaps there's some collective power in the prayers of people. (Or perhaps not, since not all prayers get the hoped-for answers.) I do think prayers are one reason of several that I'm still here to annoy people.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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You're a game changer Rossweisse. I know prayer helps. It helps me as I've said above. People are helped knowing or believing that others are praying for them, that's a fact, axiomatic, a point I was trying to make with Komensky. And that is magical, spiritual. Of the human spirit, the synergy of it it feeding back in to the individual. I'm rationally convinced that God's spirit, essence mirrors, embraces, enfolds, cups, interpenetrates, resonates, yearns, feels immanently with ours. That knowledge helps. Me. That true story I make up helps me. Yours is a similarly uniquely personal, real spiritual experience.
My story of how prayer works – and it obviously does and is doing for you – and yours may be differentiated by my deist premiss that you will never share along with most here, but I want you to know that I totally endorse what works for you and that it is completely spiritually valid to me. We meet at the top regardless of differentiation.
For me you are the magic. You are miraculous. Your courage, your sense of humour, your shared vulnerability is awesome. For me God is so smart He doesn't touch creation once He's set the apparently arbitrary parameters in the quantum perturbation that becomes the universe in motion. You are in those parameters. Your courage. Your constantly vindicated take.
So please take whatever I say not as a challenge or a refutation DESPITE the language of challenge and refutation. There is no warrant in anything I say for you to not continue for all the years you have being a living testimony to the spirit, to the love, the hope of God.
Feel my prayer.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Nick: 'Meanwhile, I have to wonder again what the point of accepting your invitation to share experiences or thoughts might be when you’ve already "refuted" them in advance without even knowing what they are. God can’t possibly know the future, but you can refute experiences before you’ve heard them?'
Me: In the light of Rossweisse's presence, and therefore the presence of many others of a like minded spirituality and sensitivity, of whom I should have been cognizant, I ask the open question, in my ignorance upon ignorance, of how we are to proceed, given that I am a thug loose in Purgatory?
It is a core, viscerally felt premiss, predicate, utter conviction with me that God does not intervene transpersonally in our states of mind, our feelings, our thinking let alone our bodies and circumstances. I do not relate to the categorically supernatural workings of God the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. I accept them completely as good as historic fact. More so. I will never see the like. No one has. Not since the Rock landed in the pond. I DO accept the orthodox characteristics of the Holy Spirit. The psychologically fruitfully miraculous (transpersonally intervening?!*) paraclete, helper, advocate, leader, teacher. *No, not in any violent, coercive, dramatic, Damascene way, but transformatively. I MUST be normatively orthodox. Which creates a tension to say the least. Orthodoxy has to be invoked, what the Bible says about God's response to us, God the Holy Spirit, has to be a given. But how that is realised in our experience, how that wind blows in and around us, is never with demonstrable breaking of the laws of physics (it wasn't even for Saul, no one else heard Jesus) – which glossolalia for one tiny example isn't, ever. Never. Not for us. Not for millennia. If EVER. The glossolalia that is. The miracles of Jesus are more, better than historic reality for me. And the wind does blow.
Even though there is no evidence in me of the psychologically fruitfully miraculous. I lack faith, hope and charity and all I see of others' isn't what I want and need. I see no incarnational examples*. I know how found wanting I am, here and in my own front room. As someone said in Hell, my sig clashes with my expression, in every way. Is that because I don't declare, submit to orthodoxy enough? I don't 'read my Bible enough'? Probably, in part. That I'm not 'religious', pious enough. Would that make my fears and resentments less? Possibly.
Would it be real? Charity is as charity does. And thinks and feels. Which affects the doing. That has been rawly exposed in me since I took over as primary carer for my 87 year old demented, immobilized mother for the past 18 months of rapid decline. Hers too! She goes in to care in 10 days.
Funny where these thoughts go. There's an Izzardesque loop going on here. The power of prayer impinges on the work of God the Holy Spirit. To say the least. This broken response here, on this thread, among you my peers, the body of Christ, is happening in a crucible of the Holy Spirit. A storm in a tea cup. I stand to be corrected by Him through you. And inadequate in the spirit of charity that I am, disqualified, I still have the... audacity, the invincible ignorance to declare Him by denying Him.
I've been reading a neo-orthodox A Theology of The Holy Spirit article whilst composing this and just read The prayers of the people 2018 in All Saints. Heartbreaking.
I want to pray more based on orthodoxy. But I'm confronted by reality. And this response is NOTHING like I intended, which was going to be utterly uncompromising, but for some reason I can't do that, though it's there.
*Which isn't true. My boss in the church 'outreach' is excellent. I wish I could be her. But I'd have to be a charismatic evangelical. We have a Saturday session for the volunteers in a couple of weeks: 'This is not optional if you are alive that day and in any way believe in a God who answers prayers!', as I believe by the broadest possible definition, I can go.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Uh oh.
Minor... maybe major epiphany time.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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My mother had an account of having been aware of being prayed for. She, and a number of other older ladies of the church were in London as witnesses in a family court session to determine the future of the child of an ended marriage. On the other side there was obvious evil concerned, and a history of skillful manipulation. The ladies were afraid. But, at home, there was a prayer group in action throughout the time of the trial, and they were all aware of being surrounded with God's love and support as they faced the other side's legal representatives. The right conclusion resulted.
[ 20. January 2018, 13:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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That's a rational awareness still isn't it?
Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
...So please take whatever I say not as a challenge or a refutation DESPITE the language of challenge and refutation. There is no warrant in anything I say for you to not continue for all the years you have being a living testimony to the spirit, to the love, the hope of God.
Feel my prayer.
I’m speechless. (That doesn’t happen often.) Thank you, Martin.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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There was a discussion on BBC R4's Sunday Programme this morning following a report or research on prayer by Tearfund published on 14 January.
quote:
Research by Tearfund says half of adults in the UK pray. But if you are not praying to God can it really be called a prayer? Graham Nicholls, Director of Affinity and Mark Vernon a psychotherapist debate the meaning of prayer.
The psychotherapist was saying that prayer is a human need, no divine authority required.
If anyone wants to listen on catch up, this clip is at towards the end of the programme.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The psychotherapist was saying that prayer is a human need, no divine authority required.
That hits the heart of it I think.
There does seem to be a place of calling residing in every human heart. Giving that space, or part of us, to a perceived external Force appears to be what separates the believer from the non-believer.
I don’t consider it to be a matter of one being right and the other being wrong, even though it does make for great debate.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
My mother had an account of having been aware of being prayed for. She, and a number of other older ladies of the church were in London as witnesses in a family court session to determine the future of the child of an ended marriage. On the other side there was obvious evil concerned, and a history of skillful manipulation. The ladies were afraid. But, at home, there was a prayer group in action throughout the time of the trial, and they were all aware of being surrounded with God's love and support as they faced the other side's legal representatives. The right conclusion resulted.
Stepping on spiders makes it rain. I can prove it. Just this morning I stepped on a spider and within minutes it rained. Not just that, I knew someone, I think he was a doctor and he was working for free in the heart of the Amazon (or was it Uganda?) and he saw for himself that when he stepped on a spider it rained within seconds. With evidence like that, you can't tell me that stepping on spiders doesn't make it rain.
K.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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This is the argument that if one thing is wrong then everything is wrong. It's an interesting argument, but it doesn't exactly prove anything. It doesn't even let atheism off the hook, since atheists aren't always wedded to the most rational or objective of medical treatments.
Moreover, very few Christians - and not even Jesus himself - have argued against the use of medical intervention.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Stepping on spiders makes it rain. I can prove it. Just this morning I stepped on a spider and within minutes it rained. Not just that, I knew someone, I think he was a doctor and he was working for free in the heart of the Amazon (or was it Uganda?) and he saw for himself that when he stepped on a spider it rained within seconds. With evidence like that, you can't tell me that stepping on spiders doesn't make it rain.
K.
There must be no spiders left in the North West of England! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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@SvitlanaV2
What one category thing wrong makes what larger category wrong?
[ 26. January 2018, 11:39: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Good question.
Komensky seems to have brought up the spider-stepping theory in order to imply that one silly religious theory disproves all silly religious theories. I was critical of that idea.
Still, I agree we can't prove the 'wrongness' (or effectiveness) of one religious system or another. That's a subjective stance - as is the stance that no religious system can possibly be 'right'.
[ 26. January 2018, 12:07: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
My mother had an account of having been aware of being prayed for. She, and a number of other older ladies of the church were in London as witnesses in a family court session to determine the future of the child of an ended marriage. On the other side there was obvious evil concerned, and a history of skillful manipulation. The ladies were afraid. But, at home, there was a prayer group in action throughout the time of the trial, and they were all aware of being surrounded with God's love and support as they faced the other side's legal representatives. The right conclusion resulted.
Stepping on spiders makes it rain. I can prove it. Just this morning I stepped on a spider and within minutes it rained. Not just that, I knew someone, I think he was a doctor and he was working for free in the heart of the Amazon (or was it Uganda?) and he saw for himself that when he stepped on a spider it rained within seconds. With evidence like that, you can't tell me that stepping on spiders doesn't make it rain.
K.
I was being extremely careful in my post. It was essential to avoid identification of any one or any case. But if those ladies had not been aware of the support directed to them, they would have found it very difficult, if not impossible, to give the evidence that would ensure that a child was not left in the grasp of a very evil person, to go down a very dark road. (I don't like to accuse people of being evil - I think this is the only person I have felt it appropriate for.)
Examples of versions of the elephant powder story are trivialising something they felt to be important, and which I agree to have been important. If it were fantasy, it was a vital fantasy, and did good. The spider belief wouldn't be, and wouldn't.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Penny S. Chill. Works for me: No spider rain claim is being made.
SvitlanaV2. Robust as ever. He might be wrong, but he's not wrong. Magical thinking just don't cut it. Says he who has rediscovered that the wind blows where it will.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Going back to the OP after a real life discussion this week, I believe in the power of prayer to change me, the person praying, and a group of people praying together.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Rationally it can't not. Incidentally the wind may blow accordingly or one may more likely adjust one's trim to Him.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
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The spider yarn is introduced because (yet again) someone has said 'someone prayed for someone for X to happen and X happened, therefore God did it.
K.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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From epidemiology and public health: Bradford Hill causation criteria. Prayer passes perhaps #6, plausibility. Not sure about the others. In posting this, I'm not saying necessarily that science criteria for assessing causation is fair with prayer, but maybe it helps to think systematically about what we're doing when we pray. We are not required are we to suspend our critical judgement and reason when we go into a church or get down on to our knees are we? (does anyone else bother getting on to their knees any more outside of a church?).
I wonder if some of our praying is egotistical, that it makes us feel if we are sharing God's power? The televangelists and evangelicals often seem to have adopted this without questioning it when they "slay in the spirit" and otherwise channel the power of Jesus to cure people of whatever ailment or suffering.
I think we also run the risk of shutting ourselves off from the sinful nature of humanity and the people who don't pray.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The spider yarn is introduced because (yet again) someone has said 'someone prayed for someone for X to happen and X happened, therefore God did it.
K.
Steady K. I don't see any such claim?
Posted by MaryLouise (# 18697) on
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When I was thinking about converting in my early 20s, I went off to do a weekend retreat at a Catholic convent with a small chapel. I was a doubting cynic from a largely agnostic background who wanted to believe in something, anything, to give me some meaning in life. I had almost no understanding of what I was supposed to do in prayer.
One afternoon I was sitting upstairs in a deep gallery overlooking the nave and altar when an elderly woman came in and set out flowers around the church. Then I heard her talking and assumed at first that she was talking to someone else whom I hadn’t noticed. After a while I realized she was praying aloud. I didn’t want to embarrass her by getting up and just shrunk back into my corner and hoped she wouldn’t see me. The idea of inadvertent eavesdropping horrified me, but I was too flustered and shy to know what to do.
She didn’t say anything especially personal or revealing. She thanked God for helping her find the answers to something that had worried her for some weeks. She talked about how lonely she felt now that an old friend was dead and how she missed him. Then she asked what she should do about a difficulty at work. She asked that her sister find peace of mind about moving house. Again she went quiet and listened for a little, then she told God about something beautiful – a flowering climber -- she had seen earlier. She went silent for another few minutes and then got up and went out.
It wasn’t a monologue, it was a conversation. The Presence she was talking to was ‘real’, a tenderhearted beloved Friend that was quite different from the thin judgmental abstraction I had been trying to pray at for months. Someone had told me faith was contagious and I suddenly realised that I wanted to find her God and it might be possible. A door opened on an entirely subjective, shared, mysterious kind of ‘getting to know You’ process called prayer that led to intimate relationship, being heard and known and loved by God rather than just making attempts to convince myself that some version of deity existed. That glimpse into a stranger’s inner life with God was a gift, a beginning. Her prayer changed me.
I express this kind of thing badly and tend to avoid theological or rational arguments about prayer, especially when I feel the other person is just wanting to score points, dismiss or trivialise a profound and significant experience (relationship) in my life. I’m still something of a doubting cynic and there aren’t many certainties or proofs in my faith life.
And I’m often grateful and relieved that some of my most heartfelt and urgent prayers have gone ‘unanswered’ because I didn’t know myself well and didn’t have the bigger picture at the time. Over and over again, though, I have felt guided and transformed by prayer and believe deeply in intercessory prayer, that the God we 'know' and love whether as Presence or Absence is listening and cares.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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Thank you MaryLouise.
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on
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MaryLouise: quote:
Over and over again, though, I have felt guided and transformed by prayer and believe deeply in intercessory prayer, that the God we 'know' and love whether as Presence or Absence is listening and cares.
Yes.
Anything that happens in our lives and the lives of those prayed for is often then seen through a variety of lenses from ascribing everything to the actions of an interventionist God through to Komensky's stepping on spiders analogy.
I have come to the place where I am not happy to do that level of dissection of people's experiences and I avoid the limitations of having certainty in any direction. I just don't think it does justice to the complexity of life.
But anything and everything that happens can become a spur to further prayer and the deepening of spiritual connection of those praying and sometimes those being prayed for IMO.
I find it inexplicable in rational terms (a mystery) and therein lies its power for me.
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
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Some of these responses answer my original question. The answer seems to be 'no'; no matter what scientific method may reveal, people will believe in the 'power' of prayer operating something like The Force, whereby external objects and people can be change. I'm a little bit saddened to hear that will continue to use intercessory prayer in the way covered in the study, knowing that they will have have no effect or make people worse.
Thanks.
K.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
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K. I'm as rationalist as the day is long and do not believe for one moment that the laws of physics are ever contravened. Ever. Except when they incontrovertibly are. They haven't been for millennia. I also believe that in Christ is 'Yes!', to the good. That we know Christ through the New Testament and through His and His Father's Spirit. The Holy Spirit has yearnings, desires, purposes for His Church. When we pray as individuals and collectively we may align with that, with 'The (unforced, unforceful) Force', where we wouldn't if we hadn't. We may become the only hands, ears, mouths, wallets that He has by prayer.
How does that make anything magical happen apart from metaphorically? A very limited analogy is Sir Fred Hoyle's 'A for Andromeda' nicked by Carl Sagan in 'Contact' a generation later, in that in them we interact with a broadcast computer program, a torrent, a wind of... encouragement - we get with the program. We don't change it. We don't bend it to our will. And it doesn't take over ours or our environment. The Holy Ghost is like a Joshua Von Neumann machine. By seeking Him we can't not be changed by Him.
[ 29. January 2018, 16:21: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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In my example, what happened as the result of the prayer was that the witnesses in court were enabled to give a good account of the situation despite opposition from the opposing side and their legal representative, which they would have not felt so able to do without the knowledge that they were being prayed for. It is possible, therefore, that the prayer indirectly influenced the outcome, by enabling the witnesses to counter a very plausible person who was none-the-less a very nasty piece of work.
I was not using this as an example of the "God sent me a parking space" sort of thing. It looks to me like the sort of thing that prayer should be expected to do.
[ 29. January 2018, 17:42: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Some of these responses answer my original question. The answer seems to be 'no'; no matter what scientific method may reveal, people will believe in the 'power' of prayer operating something like The Force, whereby external objects and people can be change. I'm a little bit saddened to hear that will continue to use intercessory prayer in the way covered in the study, knowing that they will have have no effect or make people worse.
Thanks.
K.
Your references don't prove that all prayer makes all people worse. It doesn't prove that all prayer is useless. It was a test under very specific conditions.
The best we can say is that we probably shouldn't tell hospital patients (or, if you prefer, any sick person) we're praying for them, if we don't know their spiritual and psychological condition.
I don't know why you find this hard to understand, as I'm sure you've had to make appropriate use of statistical data as a part of your education.
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