Ship of Fools: How would you read this?

Thread: How would you read this? Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I've a question about what was actually going on in a situation a couple weeks ago, and would welcome your ideas on it.

My family went off to physical therapy together and got there with about half an hour of waiting to do before they could take any of us. The waiting room was set up with two straight rows of three chairs each, the rows forming an L-shape.

Two women, both in their sixties, white, able-bodied, were sitting there, each in the middle chair of their respective rows. One had placed her coat and other belongings in the chair next to her; the chair on the other side had some paper in it, and I could not be sure whether the paper belonged to her (or someone else) or not.

The other woman had put her belongings in both empty chairs in her row.

Their apparent age/class/background would suggest that they had had the usual training in common courtesy.

We entered the room, talked to the receptionist, and were told to wait (as everyone could clearly hear). This was myself (50 year old white woman), my husband (70 year old Vietnamese) and our son, who is 16.

We looked at the chairs, and both women looked at us. After a minute or so, the second woman picked up a clipboard of papers and began filling it out, leaving that chair (immediately beside her) empty and theoretically available. The other woman did nothing at all.

For the next 30 minutes or so, my family continued to stand uncomfortably, shifting our weight, while two women occupied all the space (bar that one chair). This was particularly tough for me, as I cannot stand for very long. After about 20 minutes another man of Middle Eastern extraction, about 50, came in and proceeded to stand also. Neither woman made any attempt to move their belongings, to address us, or to acknowledge the situation in any way.

I said nothing, as I was afraid I'd rip some heads off. I certainly did not sit in the only chair on offer, as it would have left the rest of my family standing.

Now it seems to me that the unwritten rules of how people in this (US) culture occupy space would have basically forced the old ladies to at least move their belongings, and very likely to move themselves to one end of their respective rows. That they totally failed to do this (despite four people standing) says to me that there was some powerful motivation preventing them.

Pray tell, what would you think it was?

[ 02. January 2018, 00:36: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Whenever that happens to me, I simply say, "Excuse me, but may I sit down, please?

If the woman were to refuse, I would say, "Oh, I didn't realize your purse had an appointment to see the doctor. How stupid of me." and proceed to move the purse myself.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

If it were me, I would have asked them to move their stuff. (If they got stroppy, I would have appealed to the nurse/office people. They have put those chairs out for all their clientele, after all.)

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

I think it is either (1) rudeness or (2) obliviousness - perhaps they're there for their memory pills. I assume it was not racism, but given they'd already claimed the seats it's harder to tell than if they picked their bags off the floor and put them on the seats as your husband walked in.

I have seen people go for the middle chairs in a waiting area recently too. They had the courtesy to shift along when I (40, white) came in.

Sorry you had to experience that. You're politer than I; I would've gone up and said, "Excuse me; I'd like that seat."

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Whenever that happens to me, I simply say, "Excuse me, but may I sit down, please?

If the woman were to refuse, I would say, "Oh, I didn't realize your purse had an appointment to see the doctor. How stupid of me." and proceed to move the purse myself.

I usually go with “Excuse me, but is someone sitting in these seats?” I like them to have them acknowledge that no one is.

Okay, so maybe a little passive aggressive. That’s not always a bad thing. [Two face]

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

A complete lack of empathy one way or another.

It's entirely possible they're just so full of privilege it didn't occur to them to move their stuff.

They might have expected that if you all wanted to sit down, you'd ask them to move it. Although that would strike me as odd.

I don't know what part of the US you're in, but it could be there was some racism involved, but like others have said, since their stuff was already spread out like that, it's not easy to tell.

I imagine it's possible they also might have both been somewhere on the spectrum, and so didn't think to move their stuff, but would've if you'd asked.

Then again, if one of them didn't move their stuff, that could be part of the reason the other one didn't, either.

It's hard for me to imagine, because I often keep all my stuff on my own lap even if there is no demand for the chairs around me, just in case! But I've also seen young people at bus stops or on buses keep their seats while older, visibly disabled people stand. (The one time I was in a position to, I asked the man with the cane if he'd like to sit - I was going to tell those kids to let him have a seat - but he said no. I think he would have liked to sit, but didn't want to make a scene.)

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

Maybe there was racism involved. It sounds mostly like a case of extreme entitlement.

I would have asked them if we could sit down. Had they failed to move their things, I would have spoken to the folks at the desk - who, if they'd been on top of their games, would have noticed you standing around uncomfortably and asked the women to free up those chairs on their own.

Pardon the emoticon, but [Mad]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

I assure you that this is not exclusively a US phenomenon. I frequently encounter it in both anglophoneo and francophone Canada.

I do not know if it is obliviousness, rudeness, or entitlement, or a mix of them, and I do not particularly care. One of the advantages of a whitening beard is that I can head for the purse-laden chair and ask if it is already taken by someone with the implication that I might collapse in a heap if I am required to stand. The purse is almost always removed. If I am to ethnically stereotype, South Asians and aboriginal persons are usually the readiest to surrender the seat and are the most helpful.

There is also an Ottawa phenomenon of people occupying the aisle seat in the bus, ensuring that the window seat remains vacant. In my dotage I have become mischievous and spy out the most glowering of the seat-blockers and approach them with a cheerful "Beg pardon, comrade, but is that seat taken?" The glares I receive could fell an elephant, but the seat is always yielded. If I might ethnic-stereotype again, older black women are the worst and grumpiest offenders, and younger black men the most apologetic.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

It happens all the time in buses that people put their purse, or shopping bag or etc on the seat next to them, or just sit in suck a way that they block two or more seats. I don't think it's racism, it's asshole-ry. On the bus I avoid situations like that if I can, but if there's no other place to sit I'll say "Excuse me" and look pointedly at the object occupying the seat, and that usually gets the point across.

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

LC, the thought occurs that the use of a cane might (a) help you get around and stand when needed, and (b) be a useful prop for guilt-tripping offenders. (I have a spare if you need one.)

Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on :

I always ask, "Are you saving this seat for someone? Because I need to sit down."

It is possible these women were waiting for someone who was in getting their therapy. Thing is, though, that person is unlikely to be resuming their waiting room seat when they're done; they're going to pay or set up the next appointment or whatever and then get the hell out of there together with their less-than-considerate buddies.

It's some mix of entitlement, gormlessness, and bad manners.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

My observation is that this kind of thing is getting worse as baby-boomers, in particular, age.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
There is also an Ottawa phenomenon of people occupying the aisle seat in the bus, ensuring that the window seat remains vacant.

Not just Ottawa, I assure you!

Judging by peoples' behaviour, I sometimes wonder if theatre tickets have the following information printed on them:

(a) This seat is by an aisle. Please ensure you sit down as early as possible.

(b) This seat is in the centre of a row. Please ensure that you arrive just as the performance is beginning.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Travelling on trains every day going to work, in England at least, it's just routine to ask politely, 'Excuse me, is anyone sitting there, please?'

I'm slightly surprised you perceived it as a problem, Lamb Chopped, would it have been culturally inappropriate to ask? I have always thought that Americans were much politer than we on this side of the Pond.

M.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Yep.

I’d have very politely asked them to move their stuff. If they had ignored me I would have moved it for them.

Rude people [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
LC, the thought occurs that the use of a cane might (a) help you get around and stand when needed, and (b) be a useful prop for guilt-tripping offenders. (I have a spare if you need one.)

Yesterday I saw a super contraption - a cane/seat combo. A bloke was putting it to good effect in a crowded bus stop
[Smile]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

In a general way, I think people have been socially trained to take chances and to basically only respond to direct challenge in many White cultural situations.

I suspect these people, if they noticed you at all, would simply think to themselves that you'd have say down if you wanted to, and so a lack of that response was an indication that you didn't want to.

Which might not be deliberate racism, but perhaps shows that people with different cultural backgrounds and experiences have different understandings of personal space, modesty, politeness etc.

Around here we have the opposite problem. Personal space is sometimes considered not to exist and personal property is considered public. A waiting room chair is public space, so I think rather than standing a patient would have just picked up the handbag, handed it to the lady and made some remark about their ailment (and/or the ailment of a family member, friend or neighbour's cat).

People are often considered to be friendly around here, so sitting close and launching into loud personal conversation is perfectly normal.

Oddly, it doesn't seem to apply to buses - one can be talking loudly on a busstop to a stranger about bunions, but as soon as the bus arrives, that inhibition is suddenly broken. One would not normally continue with the same conversation on the bus, although starting another with a different stranger is perfectly acceptable.

People are weird.

[ 02. January 2018, 08:07: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

If the receptionist was in the same room, shouldn't they have intervened to tell them to shift their bits and pieces to make room for you?

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

To my mind they were wanting to keep their stuff off of themselves and the floor. It may have given them a twinge of guilt to see you three wanting seats. Apparently not enough guilt.

It is easy enough to not be there in person and suggest asking politely for them to allow you to have a seat. That is harder than it sounds when you are actually there in person addressing a stranger.

I would like to imagine doing that and then taking their stuff and handing it to them if they didn't reply, but I don't know if that is what I would actually do.

I guess there is some consolation in not lowering yourself to their level.

My youngest would probably fart enough to drive them off.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If the receptionist was in the same room, shouldn't they have intervened to tell them to shift their bits and pieces to make room for you?

I've never seen a receptionist take any notice of anyone who isn't actually standing in front of them.

That said, I suppose I've not been waiting in many waiting room situations.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

Personally I would read their response as neutral; not particularly considerate, but not actively negative.

In your situation I would have asked the woman if she could move her belongings so that we could all sit down. I'm not sure why that was difficult for you to do? Without asking if you could sit down, it's anyone's guess why one of them didn't move things for you.

Some possible negative reasons could be:
Racism
Ageism (assuming you and your husband would take the free seats and your son was young enough to stand)
General selfishness
Lack of awareness of others

But some other reasons could be:
Anxiety re cultural norms - might have thought your husband was reluctant to sit next to a stranger of the opposite sex
She had general anxiety about close contact with others
She had a cold or something infectious
She didn't know whether you actually wanted to sit down (not everyone does; about 15 years ago I had severe pain in my hip area for a few days which was mild when standing, disappeared when lying but was severe when sitting, which was embarrassing in the waiting room as I remained standing, which made me look impatient)

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
It happens all the time in buses that people put their purse, or shopping bag or etc on the seat next to them, or just sit in such a way that they block two or more seats.

When I lived in New York, I used to hate it that people would stand directly in front of the exit door regardless of how full the bus or train car was. Or on buses, that people would stand at the front of the aisle rather than move to the back and make room for more passengers.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
LC, the thought occurs that the use of a cane might (a) help you get around and stand when needed, and (b) be a useful prop for guilt-tripping offenders. (I have a spare if you need one.)
Yesterday I saw a super contraption - a cane/seat combo. A bloke was putting it to good effect in a crowded bus stop

I went to the museum in Avignon, a vast sprawling affair with concrete floors. And they offer these cane-seats to patrons! I instantly availed myself of one and happily sat to read labels, admire Roman artifacts, etc.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I said nothing, as I was afraid I'd rip some heads off.

Why didn't you ask before getting angry about it? It's not usually considered rude to ask "Is this seat taken?".

(If you want to be rude without getting angry you can always quote St Beyoncé after taking over an unoccupied seat - if you liked it, then you should have put your ring on it).

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

I can't offer any insight into why they set up this state of affairs. It seems to be distinctly guesswork to try. Why they didn't spontaneously remove their clutter when you arrived is another matter, as is why nobody challenged them.

What has emerged is that there's a lot of cultural conventions in here. Anyone commuting into a crowded metropolis will face a similar situation quite often I suspect. Certainly when it's happened to me, a quick "Is anybody sitting there?" has always done the trick, save for when they are genuinely saving a seat for someone following along behind.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. They weren't considerate enough to move their stuff when they saw you standing there. But none of you were assertive enough to ask them politely to do so.

In your position I would have waited nicely for a few minutes and then asked one of them to move so you could all sit down. If they'd made a thing of it, I'd have got the nurse.

I use public transport all the time. I'm don't pay the kind of money that a commute into London costs to stand whilst someone's bag gets a seat.

[ 02. January 2018, 14:46: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
When I lived in New York, I used to hate it that people would stand directly in front of the exit door regardless of how full the bus or train car was. Or on buses, that people would stand at the front of the aisle rather than move to the back and make room for more passengers.

I went to a fireworks display in Caerphilly, taking the local train to avoid the traffic. When it arrived, it seemed full - but in fact all the standing passengers were crowding around the doors. I haven't lived in London for nothing, so I said in a loud voice, "Could you please move down the carriage, there are people trying to get on". They did. Sadly this didn't work for Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson recently.

(What I wanted to say was, "Please move right down the car and use all available spaces ... This train is now ready to depart, stand clear of the closing doors"). P.S. I also get annoyed with folk who stop at the very bottom of escalators or just outside shop doors to dig around in their bag or make a phone call, but rarely say anything.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

(What I wanted to say was, "Please move right down the car and use all available spaces

The problem is that trains or buses where people are "using all available spaces" are over-full to the point where they lose functionality. With all the seats taken, and perhaps one or two people standing, it's still easy to get off when you want to. With the aisles packed with standing people, it's very much harder to get off if you have moved right down the car, particularly if you have a bag or two with you.

And if you're a person standing on a train, it is rather annoying to have your ankles repeatedly banged by the bag of someone who is trying to squeeze through the crowd and get off.

The efficient behaviour is for people who have a long way to go to move down the car, and people who are only going a couple of stops, or who have sizable bags, to hang out by the door. (Actually, designating sets of doors as "entrance" or "exit" doors, so as to generate a flow of people through the carriage, would be even better, except that someone is bound to screw it up.)

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I said in a loud voice, "Could you please move down the carriage, there are people trying to get on". They did.

I tried that once in New York, and the only response I got was from some strumpet blocking the door who retorted: "Oh, look, a conductor!"

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
With the aisles packed with standing people, it's very much harder to get off if you have moved right down the car.

In which case one slowly but deliberately works one's way toward the exit several stops before one's stop.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Welcome to the delights of city transport! (And don't even think of Lisbon's No.38 bus in pre-Metro days).

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I said nothing, as I was afraid I'd rip some heads off.
Why didn't you ask before getting angry about it? It's not usually considered rude to ask "Is this seat taken?".

(If you want to be rude without getting angry you can always quote St Beyoncé after taking over an unoccupied seat - if you liked it, then you should have put your ring on it).

Okay, time to explain more.

There was a very emotionally charged atmosphere the moment we walked in. Seriously, you could feel the vibes. I wrote the OP as neutrally as I could in the hopes that you all could convince me what I thought was happening was NOT happening--that this was not in fact a case of racism. And no, I don't see racism under every bush, but you should have felt the charge in that place (conveyed mainly by body language). It was something else.

I didn't speak up (as I normally would have) because within the first thirty seconds my temper had gone from amiable to infernal, and I didn't trust myself not to rip heads off. I rarely react that way (see "charged atmosphere" above). If I were to do it again, I'd do the same. Chewing up elderly ladies is not a good look.

Some of you have asked about the receptionist. The clinic expects the receptionist to be general assistant/dogsbody for the therapists in the back whenever she's not actually dealing with a patient. That means that nobody's manning the desk and you have to summon her with a bell. So no, she'd not have noticed the situation, or she'd have said something, sensible person that she is!

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Oh, FWIW--I too have had to deal with the airplane/bus seat hoggers, and they don't infuriate me the way these people did. Minor annoyance if anything.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

In view of that, I think that whatever the truth of the matter, it's going to be impossible to convince you that it wasn't racism.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

This is probably the most British complaint I've ever read.

And yet...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

No. I was dithering fifty fifty before Eliab's post.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

There was a very emotionally charged atmosphere the moment we walked in. Seriously, you could feel the vibes.

This is something that most white people will not experience and certainly not on a regular basis. Most brown people living in white societies will all too often.
Though it is still impossible to know, this makes the concern of racism more reasonable, IME.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Ross, that was a good idea about the cane. I borrow my husband's on occasion, though I do better with a stick (weak wrist joint).

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Though it is still impossible to know, this makes the concern of racism more reasonable, IME.

It's almost certainly the case. But I can't see how that can be determined from this discussion.

The bigger challenge is how to respond appropriately.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It's almost certainly the case.

???

not sure what you mean...

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I wouldn't be at all suprised if it was racism pure and simple.

However, I don't see how all of us on here and not in the room can be expected to gauge that, impartially, from your account.

If you were seeking confirmation from all of us that it was probably racism, I think you've got it. The question then becomes: what is the best way of responding?

It seems to me that you either have to put up with it or find a way of responding that is assertive without being explosive. We can explore that here, but I'm not sure what else we can do within this context.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
LC, the thought occurs that the use of a cane might (a) help you get around and stand when needed, and (b) be a useful prop for guilt-tripping offenders. (I have a spare if you need one.)
Yesterday I saw a super contraption - a cane/seat combo. A bloke was putting it to good effect in a crowded bus stop

I went to the museum in Avignon, a vast sprawling affair with concrete floors. And they offer these cane-seats to patrons! I instantly availed myself of one and happily sat to read labels, admire Roman artifacts, etc.

Here it is - very clever.

cane/seat

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Basically I was hoping someone would come up with an insight that would convince me I was wrong--or at least partially so. I figured that since it was still bugging me a week later (was it really racism? Am I just not seeing something?) the Ship would be the place where I'd get the largest range of opinions. As for how to respond, the situation is done already. If I didn't respond as well as I might have, I also didn't respond as ... poorly ... as I might have, and I'll take that.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Aha. You approach one of the women and politely ask - using one of the form of words already suggested - for the seat at the end of the row. White woman to white woman, shouldn’t be a problem. You then solicitously settle your husband on the seat. Repeat with the other woman and either occupy it yourself or put your son on it. By now, with any luck, they will be huddling together on adjacent chairs in the middle, very possibly freeing up one or more of the remaining seats.

Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :

I suppose my question in this is whether there were assumptions going on. There was a chair available once the woman moved the papers but none of you sat down upon it. It is possible that this could be taken as meaning that the members of your family did not wish to sit. In effect there was unoccupied space available, so no need to move the belongings until it becomes clear that the space is needed? Perhaps it would not occur to them that none of you would choose to sit unless you all did? A bit of a blinkered assumption, but possible.
However if there was something going on in their reactions to your family that implied something else then that's another matter.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Lucia--could be. Firenze--yeah, I didn't think about settling my husband (rather like a maitre d'!) first. He of course would not sit while I was standing, and I would not sit while the rest of my family was expected to stand (with chairs available), and so on, and so on... Really, I felt I couldn't take that one seat next to woman #2 because it seemed to be grudgingly made available, like "Okay, you're a misguided white woman married to an Asian, but I'll make room for you (and you only)".

It just felt like I would have been making myself bloody complicit.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I would have sat in the free chair, and the chances are, the lady would be uncomfortable enough to move. If not, I have my ways.

It is rude. It is always a challenge to identify the right chair to take in a particular situation. As a rule, the chair most distant from any other person is correct, but they hadn't taken into account more people. When the free chair was taken, I would have picked up the bag on one of the remaining chairs, and gone to open it (as if to see who it belonged to, as it was clearly not anyone there). They would probably then claim it.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

[Snigger]

I keep

when you folks talk about picking up or looking in people's bags. Round here that would probably be met with a gun (JUST KIDDING) (but still)

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

I agree that it's probably better to exercise discretion when it comes to other people's bags. I might, in a situation like that one, pick one up and put it on the floor; I would not open it.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
There was a very emotionally charged atmosphere the moment we walked in. Seriously, you could feel the vibes. I wrote the OP as neutrally as I could in the hopes that you all could convince me what I thought was happening was NOT happening--that this was not in fact a case of racism.

I'll try.

This was a medical facility of some sort, right?

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that an elderly woman waiting for medical treatment might be emotionally charged for reasons that have nothing to do with the presence of a mixed race family in the waiting room.

The anxiety might not even have anything to do with health. Maybe the two women had a blazing row with each other in the taxi on the way to the clinic, and you picked up on that vibe. Or maybe they'd shared a sprout vindaloo the night before, were both farting like bellows, and were embarrassed to have anyone at all sit near them.

Given that they were, apparently, taking up six seats between the two of them before you even walked in, there seems to have been something out of the ordinary going on that wasn't directed at you and yours. Ordinary thoughtlessness seems to me the most likely reason.

It's also entirely possible that they misread your motives in declining to take the seat that they did make available. If they weren't smart enough to realise that both you and your husband would be unwilling to sit if the other was standing, it's feasible that once the unspoken offer of a seat had apparently been refused, they felt more justified in continuing to hog the other three that they were taking up with objects other than their arses.

quote:
I didn't speak up (as I normally would have) because within the first thirty seconds my temper had gone from amiable to infernal, and I didn't trust myself not to rip heads off.

OK, but if you reckon that you can accurately read their body language to pick up on their emotionally charged vibe, they might equally well have noticed you glowering at them in silent rage, and marked you down as a nutter whom they understandably didn't want sitting anywhere near them. It's just a possibility, but it would account for the known facts at least as well as racial prejudice.

Obviously we also can't rule out the possibility that these people were so insanely racist that they objected to the mere presence of an elderly Vietnamese man in a public waiting room, but that doesn't strike me as being any more the go-to explanation for odd, and probably selfish, behaviour than any other.

It still baffles me that you got so angry before even asking if the seats were taken.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

My strategy is similar circumstances:-

Me: "Excuse me, is this seat taken?"

Reply: "No, it isn't."

I occupy the chair.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I would have sat in the free chair, and the chances are, the lady would be uncomfortable enough to move. If not, I have my ways.

It is rude. It is always a challenge to identify the right chair to take in a particular situation. As a rule, the chair most distant from any other person is correct, but they hadn't taken into account more people. When the free chair was taken, I would have picked up the bag on one of the remaining chairs, and gone to open it (as if to see who it belonged to, as it was clearly not anyone there). They would probably then claim it.

I would happily ask someone to move their bag so I can sit down. I wouldn't physically move it.

Most people are thoughtless rather than deliberately unkind or cruel. After you all carried on standing after they'd moved some stuff without saying anything, they probably decided to you were fine with that and it was best to leave you all to it.

Why couldn't your husband or your son say something?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

Given that they were, apparently, taking up six seats between the two of them before you even walked in, there seems to have been something out of the ordinary going on that wasn't directed at you and yours.
Ordinary thoughtlessness seems to me the most likely reason.

Ordinary thoughtlessness is out of the ordinary?
If they’d had a row, were gassing each other or whatever, they’d be sitting at opposite ends of each row, not the middles.

quote:

It's also entirely possible that they misread your motives in declining to take the seat that they did make available.

This makes sense regardless of motivations.

quote:

Obviously we also can't rule out the possibility that these people were so insanely racist that they objected to the mere presence of an elderly Vietnamese man in a public waiting room, but that doesn't strike me as being any more the go-to explanation for odd, and probably selfish, behaviour than any other.

Insanely racist. [Roll Eyes]

Being uncomfortable with other groups begins at fairly low levels of racism, even down to the levels where people don’t realise they are racist.

quote:

It still baffles me that you got so angry before even asking if the seats were taken.

People who don’t regularly experience being treated differently because of who they are, not understanding? I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.

Yes, there are possibilities other than predjudice to explain the situation. But LC’s interpretation happens all the time.
Though I do realise that racism in Donald Trump’s America is a bit hard to process...

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Just as an aside, I wonder whether I (an elderly white European man, just a few years younger than Mr. Chopped) would receive similar treatment, were I to enter the waiting room in a medical facility in Vietnam.

Somehow, I doubt it.

FWIW, the Chopped family behaved in a civilised manner, IMHO.

IJ

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:

Given that they were, apparently, taking up six seats between the two of them before you even walked in, there seems to have been something out of the ordinary going on that wasn't directed at you and yours.
Ordinary thoughtlessness seems to me the most likely reason.
Ordinary thoughtlessness is out of the ordinary?
If they’d had a row, were gassing each other or whatever, they’d be sitting at opposite ends of each row, not the middles.

quote:

It's also entirely possible that they misread your motives in declining to take the seat that they did make available.
This makes sense regardless of motivations.

quote:

Obviously we also can't rule out the possibility that these people were so insanely racist that they objected to the mere presence of an elderly Vietnamese man in a public waiting room, but that doesn't strike me as being any more the go-to explanation for odd, and probably selfish, behaviour than any other.
Insanely racist. Being uncomfortable with other groups begins at fairly low levels of racism, even down to the levels where people don’t realise they are racist.

quote:

It still baffles me that you got so angry before even asking if the seats were taken.
People who don’t regularly experience being treated differently because of who they are, not understanding? I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.

Yes, there are possibilities other than predjudice to explain the situation. But LC’s interpretation happens all the time.
Though I do realise that racism in Donald Trump’s America is a bit hard to process...

Not necessarily. There are rows of three seats on the platform at my train station. The considerate thing to do is to sit in one of the end seats and leave the other two free. Some people will deliberately sit in the middle of a row of three to make it less likely that others will sit down next to them. Then put their stuff on the other seats. Both of them.

The reason I'm assuming thoughtlessness and an overblown sense of entitlement is that I've seen people of all sexes, races, classes and ages do this.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

I am going to post something that may seem far fetched but is worth sneaking in just in case.

What if the atmosphere is not about you?

That is let us suppose that may be the two women know each other. Not just this but are each others nemesis in some small social circle. There is an atmosphere because they are both at the same doctors surgery at the same time probably for the same complaint. Of course they are not going to talk and they want equal status so sitting plonk in the middle of two benches at right angles given them this. They are not going to shift either as this would imply weakness on their part in face of their opponent.

Jengie

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
There are rows of three seats on the platform at my train station. The considerate thing to do is to sit in one of the end seats and leave the other two free. Some people will deliberately sit in the middle of a row of three to make it less likely that others will sit down next to them. Then put their stuff on the other seats. Both of them.

No doubt. But my post was in direct response to Eliab's Fart Wars* scenario.

quote:

The reason I'm assuming thoughtlessness and an overblown sense of entitlement is that I've seen people of all sexes, races, classes and ages do this.

I'm not assuming any particular motivation. I am saying the tension LC perceived weighs more towards prejudice.
Mild discomfort and quiet irritation with the idea that one might be in closer proximity to other people than desired is the atmosphere you assume. Not the tension LC describes.

*Not That Long Ago, In a Galaxy Far, Far too Close...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

The two women were not looking at each other nor ignoring each other. That was all reserved for us.

And it wasn't a doctor's surgery. It was a physical therapy place, where nobody gets any particular news (it being much more like a gym-under-supervision) or diagnoses. Very low key in terms of emotion, usually.

I smelt no farts (thanks be to God)

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I am intrigued by the 50 year old Middle Eastern man. When he came in, there was a seat available for him. I can understand that LC didn't want to sit and leave her husband standing and vice versa, but the 50 year old had no reason to not walk in and sit on the vacant seat. Why did he remain standing?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The two women were not looking at each other nor ignoring each other. That was all reserved for us.

And it wasn't a doctor's surgery. It was a physical therapy place, where nobody gets any particular news (it being much more like a gym-under-supervision) or diagnoses. Very low key in terms of emotion, usually.

But a place where one might assume those waiting might have difficulty standing, by nature of the practice.

It's impossible to know if racism was a motive for either or both women-- which is most often the case, and why racism, sexism, and ageism are so insidious. It's easy to prove in general terms through broad-based or double-blind studies, but impossible to prove in the immediate since in polite society no one is going to say (even to themselves often) "I didn't want to sit next to an Asian man".

Mostly it feels like entitlement and self-asborbtion. Something I find myself capable of from time to time as well, but less so when there's eye contact. Not long ago on the train I sat in my preferred seat-- ones that face a view of out gorgeous mountains. The seat I was sitting in is a fold-up seat designed to access mobility chairs, but seldom used. I was not looking at the mountains but as too often is the case, had my phone out and was absorbed in facebook and/or Ship, when an elderly woman in mobility scooter and her daughter boarded completely unnoticed by me. Fortunately, the daughter did speak up and asked for the seat-- giving me an opportunity to apologize and say something self-deprecating about my oblivious behavior. Led to a friendly and lighthearted moment as I helped fold up the seat and moved to a nearby seat. Doesn't sound like the women were as clueless as I was, but it would have been interesting to see/hear their response had they been politely asked to give up the seats.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I'm appalled at the actions of the two women: I'm also not surprised that you, LC, behaved the way you did because that is what the well-mannered, well brought-up person does - chooses discomfort rather than shining a light on behaviour that is crass, rude and indefensible.

I have to admit that until the 1990s I'd have made the same call as you and not said anything. What changed my mind was a dear friend (female) who encountered a similar situation when she was very heavily pregnant (5 weeks before due date with twins) on a crowded commuter train. She asked a city type if he would mind moving his briefcase so she could sit on the seat it was occupying and got back an exasperated sigh and the response "I was trying to read". At that point FF said something in her brain went ping and she said loudly "If you show me the words you're having difficulty with I'll see if I can help". Cue gales of laughter from surrounding passengers (all seated, mind you, and none of whom had offered their berth), very red face on the part of the city gent and a hurried gathering of briefcase and copy of the FT.

I now not only make a point of offering a seat but also make sure that things like newspapers, books, drinks, etc, are either with me or easily picked-up so that others can sit.

Next time, take your courage in both hands and ask people to shift: stuff doesn't deserve a seat, people do.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

It seems to me that while it is possible that Lamb Chopped's reading of the situation is wrong, it is highly unlikely that my reading as a white man with no non-white family members who was not there will be more accurate.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I am not white. But it is also borne in upon me that I am not as nice a person as Lamb. I have lived in New York City, where the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I am sufficiently selfish that I would have put not the slightest consideration into their angst, needs, sacredness of the purse, etc. My demand would have been prompt and vocal. Possibly Lamb's is the better way.

[ 03. January 2018, 18:00: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Another couple of bus experiences from today: an older lady was telling me on the bus-stop about all the people she knew who had died over the holiday period - and how one in particular wouldn't have died if he'd been staying with her. People around here really don't seem to have developed any sense that other people might not want to talk about this stuff.

Later I witnessed something when I glanced up from my book. I noticed that an older lady had sat next to me (in the chair near the back of the bus) and the man she was with was standing up next to her. I was now trapped so wasn't able to do anything, but several other people asked if he wanted their seat, but he refused. For some reason it was a point of pride to stand rather than accept a courtesy.

It is absolutely true that we cannot parse the situation in the OP because none of us were there. But I think if an older person was standing here when seats were available, it might well be assumed that they wanted (for unknown reasons) to stand rather than sit.

But then I'd imagine that it would be highly unlikely that the older person wouldn't have already explained to the whole waiting room what ailment they were troubled with; and also highly likely that someone would have asked if he wanted to sit down.

I'm not sure if that says more about LC's situation or the culture here in the Welsh valleys.

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
...Next time, take your courage in both hands and ask people to shift: stuff doesn't deserve a seat, people do.

Ahh-men.

But having read through the thread, I do think racism was likely a part of the dynamic. It may be hard for those of us who don't encounter it first-hand, and who wouldn't behave that way ourselves, to recognize it in the telling.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I missed the detail about them clearing one seat, which none of the Lambs sat on, thereby conceivably signalling that they preferred standing. After all, by what telepathy were the women to know that they were doing a Musketeer One For All, All For One?

I still think the thing to do is grab what’s given as base for gaining more. So still plonk down Mr L and with an alligator smile pointedly move towards another of the cluttered seats and Loom.

As they say in therapy Communication is key. As long as no one actually SAYS anything, you can spend pages and pages analysing, imputing, speculating and projecting. Maybe they were oblivious and crochety old bats* maybe plain-clothes members of the Klan - we will never know.

*my favoured explanation, because I are one.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am not white. But it is also borne in upon me that I am not as nice a person as Lamb. I have lived in New York City, where the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I am sufficiently selfish that I would have put not the slightest consideration into their angst, needs, sacredness of the purse, etc. My demand would have been prompt and vocal. Possibly Lamb's is the better way.

No it isn’t. Taking up seats with your stuff whilst others are standing is rude. Keeping quiet enables the dysfunctional behaviour, whatever the reason for it was.* There’s no need to be rude or angry about it, just ask them politely to move their stuff so you can sit down.

If you can't / won't do that, then that's your issue rather than their's. (Two weeks down the line I'd be more cross with me for not standing up for myself than with them tbh).

They may refuse to move. And have to live with their selfish, unkind and thoughtless actions. And you have the right to fall on them if standing for long periods gets too much. [Big Grin]

* Which could be racism. Or rudeness. Or being somewhere on the autistic spectrum which means they need more space around them than other people.

[ 05. January 2018, 08:26: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

Been there, got the T-shirt. I regularly encounter bags on seats and people sitting in buses on the isle side of a pair. I always address the issue by pointedly standing and looking 'serious' and this invariably works without anything being said. I do not thank them for accommodating me as I think common sense and politeness should be a 'given'. If someone is standing in the doorway of a bus they soon discover that my walking stick takes up a tremendous amount of space as I struggle past and my shoulder sways into them as I nearly lose my balance.
Our buses have seats reserved for the elderly, children and pregnant women, so I go for one of those. I am not tempted to say to any young woman sitting in such a seat 'excuse me but are you pregnant?'! I try to avoid using buses when schoolchildren are returning home so I avoid the situation where I would need to ask one of them to move. We have had four stabbings and two shootings in the past 10 days in our Borough so I won't confront a young person, thank you very much.
I am elderly white. I live in one of the most ethnically diverse areas of the country so I don't think there's a racial element in my experiences.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Ordinary thoughtlessness is out of the ordinary?

No, what's out of the ordinary is two people taking up six seats in waiting room that's at capacity. It's out of the ordinary because most people are sufficiently aware and polite not to do that.

The cause of that out-of-the-ordinary situation, may, of course, be entirely ordinary - such as thoughtlessness.

The point is, the unusual thing - namely the land-grab of four extra seats, had happened before the Lambs arrived. So that bit - the bit that could be explained by thoughtlessness - wasn't due to racism (or at least not racism directed at the Lambs, I suppose it is possible that they were pre-emptively setting up a perimeter against non-whites generally, but that seems a bit of a stretch to me).

quote:
Insanely racist. Being uncomfortable with other groups begins at fairly low levels of racism, even down to the levels where people don’t realise they are racist.

But that's not what LC is describing. I am well aware (from her previous posts over many years) that she knows what "casual" or "low-level" racism looks like. And what she's describing here is an unusual experience that goes beyond "being uncomfortable with other groups" - it's a display of outright (if unspoken) hostility at the mere appearance of a non-white person, it a public place where you'd ordinarily expect to see non-white people (the arrival of the Middle-Eastern man is evidence of that), and whom the racist had no expected interaction with whatsoever.

Most people who are casually racist can manage to cope with the existence of an Asian across the room in a public space without tangible malice. Maybe they can't bring themselves to interact socially without signalling disapproval, but things hadn't got to that stage in LC's account. "Can't stand to see a Vietnamese man in a public space" is insanely racist in a way that "feeling slightly uncomfortable about how to interact with someone of a different race" isn't.

quote:

quote:

It still baffles me that you got so angry before even asking if the seats were taken.
People who don’t regularly experience being treated differently because of who they are, not understanding? I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.

The point is, all LC had to go on was (what she interpreted as) hostile body language. Which she might have misread. I don't suppose for a minute that LC is one of those people who enjoys feeling angry and aggrieved, so it seems to me that a polite enquiry about the availability of the seats might have removed the source of the resentment - the women's apparent hostility might have evaporated, or they might have told her that they were saving the seats for some other infirm people due to arrive soon. I don't know. And LC didn't know - not in the thirty seconds or so that it took for her to lose her shit, anyway. It was an enquiry worth making - and almost everyone commenting on this thread has said they would have done some variant on that theme.

Saying nothing before getting mad about one's perceptions of a stranger's attitude, before that stranger has said (or, really, even done) anything at all, isn't normal or reasonable behaviour. It's baffling, unless you're a person who likes taking offence, which LC manifestly isn't.

The fact that in this case there was a difference in race, and therefore a sinister explanation for the rudeness, doesn't really make that much of a difference - whatever the reason for the perceived hostility, it was worth spending a few polite words on the off-chance that they'd been a miscommunication. LC didn't do that. True, the women might have been appalling bigots, who would still have been hostile even after polite enquiry, and LC's anger might have been utterly merited, but none of us know that, because LC never spoke to them before judging them to be racist.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I do not thank them for accommodating me as I think common sense and politeness should be a 'given'.

I agree with you. Part of politeness is thanking someone when they do something that they are expected to do for you. When a shopkeeper hands me my change, I say "thank you". This doesn't in any sense imply that there was a chance he might just trouser the cash.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Eliab,
Your explanation is technically possible. And that is a problem. Any one instance could be explained away. But when it happens often, when people look at you but not anyone else who walks in, when the police and store employees pay you special notice, it sort of sets a pattern. One that is cumulative. One that white people often cannot see.
And sorry, your explanations are a bigger stretch than racism. A row, in a physical therapy office? Possible, but not likely. Farting? Happens, but unless it is horrific, that is generally ignored. And if it were horrific, the women would be as far from each other as possible.
They were taking up seats likely because they didn't want to sit next to other people and/or they were inconsiderate. The tension in the room could have many explanations, but the likely one is discomfort with the Lambs. A mixed-race couple of disparate age with proof of their sins accompanying them.
Yeah, what a stretch. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

heheheheh. Yep, we lost a chance at a bank loan once just that way. Perfect credit, long time customers, and the bank manager sat with his eyes on our newborn spawn the whole time while he was fishing up the guts to reject our app for $5,000.

Fortunately there was another bank down the road just as happy to take a perfect credit customer off their hands.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Had this happen a few times on public transport and elsewhere. My approach is always to meet the person's eye and ask directly to remove the offending articles.

Recently I was waiting for a long overdue coach at London Victoria. The only spare seat was between 2 women clearly Muslims. They looked up at my approach and immediately moved their and invited me to sit between them. They soon drew me into conversation for the next hour as we waited: they'd been to do their citizenship "exams". A lot of stereotypes and assumptions overturned that day by 2 thoroughly polite and welcoming people.

If the situation is reversed, I always try to give up my seat/move my stuff. There are people who need to sit more than I, even if I am now grey haired. My daughter and 2 grandchildren travel by train on long journeys and often have 3 seats of 4 around a table: they love meeting new people in the empty seat. It's an adventure more should try

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Talking? On a train? How is that even possible?!

M.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Eliab,
Your explanation is technically possible. And that is a problem. Any one instance could be explained away. But when it happens often, when people look at you but not anyone else who walks in, when the police and store employees pay you special notice, it sort of sets a pattern. One that is cumulative. One that white people often cannot see.
And sorry, your explanations are a bigger stretch than racism. A row, in a physical therapy office? Possible, but not likely. Farting? Happens, but unless it is horrific, that is generally ignored. And if it were horrific, the women would be as far from each other as possible.
They were taking up seats likely because they didn't want to sit next to other people and/or they were inconsiderate. The tension in the room could have many explanations, but the likely one is discomfort with the Lambs. A mixed-race couple of disparate age with proof of their sins accompanying them.
Yeah, what a stretch.

But one moved their stuff whilst the other didn’t. Which suggests the incident wasn’t entirely racist. Unfortunately, the Lambs family dynamic meant it was all sitting down or no one. To get a seat the other lady had to move her stuff. She may be a member of Aryan Nation or she may be so lost in her own bubble she wouldn’t think to move her stuff unless asked. Who knows?! None of us for sure.

LC asked what the group made of the situation. It’s interesting to note that all the contributors to the thread said that in the same situation they would have asked for the stuff to be moved. Which is what I’d take away from this TBH.

The only behaviour and attitudes I can control is my own. If I can’t get my shit together enough to ask someone for something I need – a seat because I can’t stand for long periods – that’s down to me. It doesn’t mean I’ll get what I want, but I’ll have tried!

[ 05. January 2018, 13:22: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

While I agree with everyone who'd ask people to move, and as a city dweller have done it a bunch of times more on the train and will surely again, I think a comfort with such requests is rather cultural. Which doesn't mean that the Lambs couldn't do it if it isn't their culture--assuming on that one since they didn't--but that we should at least note that for some people asking for space is normal while for others it is very alien.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
But one moved their stuff whilst the other didn’t. Which suggests the incident wasn’t entirely racist.

Racism isn't on or off, is is a scale with on and off bracketing a finely numbered scale between. Many people who are definitely racist are also generally good people.* So a person who is uncomfortable with brown people and/or interracial couples could also be decent enough to offer a seat.
But yeah, we don't know.

quote:

LC asked what the group made of the situation. It’s interesting to note that all the contributors to the thread said that in the same situation they would have asked for the stuff to be moved. Which is what I’d take away from this TBH.

The only behaviour and attitudes I can control is my own. If I can’t get my shit together enough to ask someone for something I need – a seat because I can’t stand for long periods – that’s down to me. It doesn’t mean I’ll get what I want, but I’ll have tried!

OK. But it is not this simple for everyone. One reason is over-reaction. I have been in similar situations and sometimes can deal with it appropriately. Other times, anger would cause my response to be more intense than it should be and the better part is to quietly deal with it. And there is exhaustion at times as well.

*My Gran was a very good person, better than I can manage. She was also racist. But she had friends and family in the groups she was racist towards. And never treated any of them differently than anybody else.

[ 05. January 2018, 15:33: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

*My Gran was a very good person, better than I can manage. She was also racist. But she had friends and family in the groups she was racist towards. And never treated any of them differently than anybody else.

This reminds me of a comment in C.S. Lewis's "The Screwtape letters" (advice from a senior devil to a junior devil on the art of temptation) that the English were such a milk-and-water lot that they would bluster hatred towards all Germans - this was during WW2 - but give tea and cigarettes to the first wounded German pilot who turned up at the back door. Such racism would seem to be more theoretical than actual.

At least, it seems to die when confronted by a real person to whom we can relate. Not that this happens with everyone.

[ 05. January 2018, 21:41: Message edited by: jacobsen ]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:

It is easy enough to not be there in person and suggest asking politely for them to allow you to have a seat. That is harder than it sounds when you are actually there in person addressing a stranger.

Though, as some posters above have hinted, that does routinely happen, at least in Britain. If I felt unable to stand long and saw an empty seat with someone's bag on it, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to ask to sit there. And it's completely normal, as trains and buses fill up, for seat-hogs to be requested to move stuff/selves for others; or, on occasion, to have to move their stuff double-quick as someone zeroes in on the seat with the obvious intention of sitting there regardless. Of course it's also normal for people to pretend they haven't noticed someone needing a seat, until they've been explicitly called out on it!

Having said that my Mum always surprised me by saying how often she (an elderly woman) was made to stand on trains (in Ireland), while young people occupied the seats. I'm over fifty and would still automatically continue to offer my seat to an elderly person, if needed, having been schooled to do this since infancy! So I can't imagine where this trend for young people to be so ignorant has come from. Especially in a country usually so observant of Mammy's Rules!

Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Especially in a country usually so observant of Mammy's Rules! [/QB]

Alas, as Mammy is generally off earning significant chunks of the Family Budget these days, her rules are less-frequently repeated and less-often enforced.

On a recent trip on Boston's MTA, an elderly African-American man (possibly my age or a bit older) offered me his seat while the apparently hale adolescent (over whom I with my white hair was pointedly strap-looming, er, hanging) seated next to my would-be gallant ignored me.

"Thank you," I resplied, "but you stay right where you are. I'm only going three stops, and if somebody's going to surrender a seat, surely it ought to be that so-called gentleman."

The apparently hale adolescent never so much as looked up from his phone.

[ 06. January 2018, 19:42: Message edited by: Ohher ]

Posted by RdrEmCofE (# 17511) on :

quote:
The apparently hale adolescent never so much as looked up from his phone.

The charitable observation might be that perhaps he was deaf. Or then again, did he have earplugs in his ears and was oblivious to everything else around him. (I have even seen youths of this ilk crossing a busy road, oblivious to traffic, totally absorbed by whatever hypnotizing images and sounds are being selectively fed them by Google, YouTube Facebook, Twitter, what have you.)

Manners maketh the man. It has always been the case. Your Afro American was more the man than the vacuous phone bedazzled juvenile.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

As confessed above, I engaged in the same behavior myself recently, with neither the excuse of youth or headphones to fall back upon

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Re young people not giving up a seat:

I think many of them simply never learned that, or even heard about it. Or saying "excuse me" to someone they're trying to get past.

Same with many grownups.

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

True. And manners and customs, like language, change.

And few of us seem good at coping with any of these. I know I'm not. But I'm learning.

[ 07. January 2018, 02:16: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I also think that some of us handle cities by completely tuning out the world. I trigger my ears to hear certain words like my stop and then ignore the rest of the world. I remember being on a bus and noticing someone near me giving up their seat to someone else. I was rather embarrassed I hadn't even noticed the existence that person in need of a seat. This although they must have been rather close to me since it was one of my neighbors who did give up the seat. My response was to realize that we are obligated to pay enough attention to the world to notice those who need. But when ignoring is how you handle the press of too-many-humans, it takes maturity to realize that one must not bind oneself up too tightly.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

From the evidence we have it is impossible to conclude with any certainty the motivations of the women concerned. If, for example, a white person had entered the room and they had made space for him/her then racism would seem to have been the motivation. On the other hand, human beings do tend to adopt strategies designed to maximise their comfort, especially in waiting rooms and on public transport. As I indicated earlier, the trick is to play the game to one’s advantage. I’m sure there is quite a literature on the subject.

In this case, unsure of any racist motivation but suspecting it I think you and your family should have taken steps to occupy the vacant seats: direct action. Regarding the seat with the newspaper, you ask, “Excuse me, is this your paper”. If the answer is ‘no’ then you pick up the paper, sit down, and proceed to read it. If the answer is ‘yes’ then you politely hand over the paper and sit down. As I suggested earlier, regarding the seats with items on them, you ask “Excuse me, is this seat taken?” Normally the answer is ‘no’, and the individual is put to the inconvenience of removing the offending clobber, allowing the questioner to sit down. For you this would be a double victory, you and your family get to sit down, and the offenders are socially defeated. If they are also racist they are either forced to sit next to an oriental gentleman or to vacate the seat and stand up, leaving you and your loved ones more space or the opportunity to sit together. Game, set, and match. You have made them feel bad.

I must confess, I find it difficult to understand why you and your family persisted in standing, Lamb Chopped. Are there other factors you haven’t told us about?

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

I'm a bolshy Scot now. Think I'm getting old! I would simply ask if I could sit and say that if I stood for any length of time she would have to pick me off the floor as I was prone to collapse. Not every illness/disablity is obvious.

The walking stick doesn't always work. On a Tube in London going to work after an op on my knee, a number of years ago, I hobbled on and stood, no one moved. I made eye contact with some seated passengers but they just looked away.Then a rasta haired young man got on at the next stop, nodded at me and then bellowed in a very loud voice that the selfish passengers were not giving a seat to a poor lady with a stick - embaresing or what! But I got my seat and there were a number of red faces.

You can now get big badges to wear for London Transport, if you need a seat on London transport. My pregnant daughter in law had one that said, "Please give a seat - baby on board." You have to apply and prove that you have a problem and need a seat, so I understand.

But I do think people are not as polite as they used to be, particulary in big cities. There seems to have been, in recent years, a "me first" attitude. Society doesn't exist but just me and I will grab and get whatever I want.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Pregnancy is an excuse that can cover everything. You can lean, greenly, over the seated person and say, "Do you mind giving me your seat? I think I'm going to be sick." The implication being that if they refuse you will barf onto their knees. This never fails to elicit a swift response.
Babies in arms work nearly as well; just hold the tot over the seated person and mention the fullness of the diaper or the tendency for juicy burps.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Kwesi, as I mentioned upthread--a very very charged atmosphere, and my own resulting desire to rip some heads off. I say this not to excuse my temper, but to explain why I didn't want to make matters worse by interacting. It was the end of a long and tiring day, I was in pain, and reforming other people's manners gracefully was just beyond me at that point.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
But one moved their stuff whilst the other didn’t. Which suggests the incident wasn’t entirely racist.
Racism isn't on or off, is is a scale with on and off bracketing a finely numbered scale between. Many people who are definitely racist are also generally good people.* So a person who is uncomfortable with brown people and/or interracial couples could also be decent enough to offer a seat.
But yeah, we don't know.

Indeed - the one woman clearing one seat could have been a cue that only the one white person in LC's family was welcome to sit.

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I also think that some of us handle cities by completely tuning out the world. I trigger my ears to hear certain words like my stop and then ignore the rest of the world.

That strikes me as being a bit unsafe! I mean, I feel safe in my city (Detroit), but I certainly wouldn't tune the world out. But I've been mugged - by someone I didn't notice when I thought I was aware of my surroundings - so that might be why the idea of tuning everything out when you're in a city strikes me as unsafe! Cary on...

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

In context, that was about public transportation where I traveled at rush hour, probably pretty safe.

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