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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Admitting to yourself you are an agnostic, but wanting more?
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
I come to Ship of Fools to hear from Christians and others who have different experiences from me for their insights. It's the best place on the internet to come, I think. (I may be wrong!)
I have recently realised that I am an agnostic, of the "strong agnostic" variety.
In other words: I don't like supernatural religion of a fundamentalist nature and I don't like materialistic atheism of a fundamentalist nature.
I don't think anyone can have knowledge that there is a God, or indeed knowledge of God, or knowledge that God definitely doesn't exist. It's all guesswork and that's what I've realised I am fine with.
However, I do still think seeking God, engaging in spiritual/religious practice, and being part of a local practising community can be edifying and good things to do. I (generally) see churches as good influences in communities and some of the last places that genuine, rooted communities based on shared values still exist.
Unfortunately, I have very little tolerance for sitting through church services made up of things I don't think I will ever fully believe (e.g. the creed, the words of the majority of songs/hymns, etc.). Equally, I feel I am simply not built to be a Quaker. I cannot tolerate long periods of silence and find them a bit suffocating and, at times, annoying.
Should I be resigned to find spirituality and solace solely in things like my favourite music, profound cinematic experiences, the odd deep conversation with my friends?
Is there an approach you can recommend for finding beauty, peace and connection within certain spiritual traditions (your insight would be appreciated!) without getting hung up on the specific words I am hearing and the feeling I would be inauthentic to join in?
(Or perhaps you would simply like to try and convince me there is a way of knowing there's a God, or some other approach? I am genuinely open-minded about all this, even if I have come to a conclusion epistemologically-speaking.)
In short: help! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Maybe you're cut out to be a Unitarian Universalist? I don't know a great deal about them but what I do know sounds like it might fit your bill.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Orb, I get it. The theology of some church services is more alien than others, and it has taken me a very long time and a lot of study to get used to and now to assent to saying or singing some of those words in all honesty.
If I hadn't experienced an extraordinary spiritual event during prayer, I wouldn't have started to go to church services at all. Now I can tolerate any of them, because I know where the theology comes from.
If I hadn't wanted to know firstly whether there is a God, and then more about God, I wouldn't have spent time reading the New Testament, soul searching, praying, doing my best to follow Jesus as told in the Bible, and allowing my thoughts to focus on this.
I have found that God is knowable, in the sense that the presence of God is detectable, not only in the numinous but also through intimate spiritual relationship. In time.
This relationship is not imagined. It is real enough to be continually affirmed, and to have had God's calling on me discerned by others.
It isn't easy, it's like climbing a mountain path. Once up there, the view is great but it still needs focus. It's worth it.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
My favourite Canadian author, Robertson Davies wrestled the wrestle you're wrestling. This essay, particularly as you get half way and further, discusses it well.
"his religion seems to have been most nurtured by the thought of Carl Jung, whose insistence on God as a psychological fact of human nature". About which we must realize has nothing to do with whether God exists or not: God is present in our minds any how.
My distinct bias for questions such as your's follows two paths. The first is to get what you can from where you can. Music within church is one which works for me: vibrate my bones yon organ!
The second is to avoid the True Believers. They want to sell you the medicine which comforts their lives, and your prescription need is for a different life. With Robertson Davies in mind, I recommend reading his "The Cunning Man" who doctors while living in a Glebe House in a church yard, after being raised among Indian faith healers, a friend who is a true believer, serving in WW2. Literature has taught me more than scripture since the grave challenges of life battered my bible.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Amen! (to raptor eye, but hey, to you both )
(There, I can say that now and I know what I mean by it, but once it was someone else's jargon and I hated it, wanted them to explain themselves properly in language which was open to all, and not just jargon. We often move around, in our relationship with God. This seems to be OK, judging by what happened to a lot of people in the bible. I expect you'll move around too.)
And a concrete thing to try - have a look at sacredspace.ie Meditation / contemplation - not for everyone, but who knows, maybe you'll like it.
[ 26. January 2018, 18:38: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
In my city Buddhism seems to offer opportunities for group meditation and other occasional gatherings, but I'm not sure if there are liturgies that may provide a theological stumbling block for an agnostic.
Regarding Christianity, I find that some agnostics benefit from existing on the fringe of church life, perhaps vicariously through family members or close friends who attend regularly. Some people keep themselves informed about special services or social events, and participate as a part of the local community rather than as a committed worshipper.
My local liberal catholic CofE church has loads of community events going on, and I suppose that attending some of these creates a sense of belonging that doesn't rely on belief, or on regular attendance at services.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The Unitarian Universalist Church nearest us has sub- groups for people interested in Buddhist practice ( without necessarily self- identifying as a Buddhist), people interested in earth-based spirituality, and people with a primary interest in social activism. I haven’t been to a Sunday service, but the sermon themes seem to be general “ how to live a good life” meditations. It sounds like a great place for someone who wants to have a spiritual community without necessarily being theistic.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
AFAIK, the Unitarian Universalitsts don't exist in the UK. Here it's just the plain Unitarians.
British Unitarians are few in number, and we hear very little about their practices and beliefs. They're known to be very liberal, although one Unitarian blogger I used to read said they weren't always as liberal as people imagined.
I suspect that in many British towns and cities, their membership is dominated by ageing people who were born into the religion, so their openness to absorbing a raft of ideas from other religions can't be taken for granted. It would be interesting to know where the most radical, dynamic congregations are. I'd guess in London, but I could be wrong.
In my city I should think there are far more self-professed Buddhists (and Buddhist networks, classes and meditation groups, etc.) than there are Unitarians.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
There is a storefront Unitarian startup in a small Lake Michigan town where we enjoy vacationing. That part of our state is heavily populated with old- skool, conservative Dutch Christian Reformed types, which along with UU’s not being particularly evangelistic makes this outpost quite intriguing to me.. ( Although in my experience Calvin College in Grand Rapids, the CRC’s intellectual epicenter, ha reduced some of the most liberal ex- Calvinists I’ve ever known.)
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Orb
I read your OP and managed to stop myself from immediately responding and read all the other, as always very interesting, posts first!
The page you linked to is very clear isn't it? For me of course the only thing to be is an agnostic of the variety who go for 99.99% probability of there never being objective evidence of a God, and the 0.01% of there being one somewhere. I will always keep that gap in mind.
I se you joined SofF back in 2002 so I wonder whether you have read some of my posts along the way?
Did you ever read the ‘Thursday Next’ series by Jasper Fforde? In it, her brother is the Vicar of the GPD – General Purpose Deity – ‘church’. Everybody is automatically a member, whether attending the regular ‘services’ or not, everybody knows there isn’t a God/god/something, but they all eenjoy being part of the community, the routine, well, just the fact that it is there.! It would be the perfect, world-wide solution!
It must be far more difficult in the US to find the kind of group you would like to find. Although I lacked any belief in god for quite a long while before stopping being in the church choir, I finally just could not sit there and listen to the words of the services!! I attend Humanist group meetings when I can, but, as I mentioned on another thread the other day, it is a pity they do not have a book of rousing songs
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
You might find Jules Evans's book, 'The Art of Losing Control' quite helpful.
I'm a fully paid up theist and I found it so.
Evans has had some kind of mystical 'near death' experience and although a strong agnostic wants to make room for the numinous and the transcendent without significant up for this, that or the other faith-position.
From your description in the OP you sound very much on the same page as him.
He writes wittily, insightfully and not unsympathetically about his sojourn in charismatic evangelicalism and his exploration of alternative spiritualities. The book contains no surprises how he ends up - and I'm issuing no spoilers by saying that it's in a similar place to the position you describe in your own case.
Essentially, it's humanism, a splurge of Stoicism and Mindfulness with a mid towards Buddhism and traditional Christian practices but shorn of creedal content.
I'm not sure you'd learn a huge amount you didn't already know but I'm sure you'd enjoy the ride and find him a delightful companion and fellow-traveller along the way.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Orb, you are me and ICMFP.
I find the suggestions of Unitarians a bit odd; if you are yourself a Trinitarian Christian why would you point someone off in a direction that explicitly rejects that USP of your God? For me at any rate it's specifically Trinitarian Christianity I'm unsure about if that makes any sense. It's the idea of the Incarnation that I find intriguing and attractive and want to explore, even if I can't be sure it's true, and more significantly to the concept of Agnosticism, do not think it can be known for certain to be true.
Svit - I don't think agnostics of my type and if I understand them correctly, Orb, are going to be on the fringes of the Church. We're in it. Indeed, aren't most of us agnostics, unless we're of that what I understood to be a minority of people who are 100% sure of the existence of God? Rather than "believers" and "agnostics" isn't there a spectrum of confidence in God's existence, and perhaps more willingness on the part of some of us on the weaker confidence end to admit it's a form of agnosticism? And is the solution to my and Orb's problem more openness about that in the mainstream Church?
[ 27. January 2018, 07:36: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Orb said -
quote:
However, I do still think seeking God, engaging in spiritual/religious practice, and being part of a local practising community can be edifying and good things to do. I (generally) see churches as good influences in communities and some of the last places that genuine, rooted communities based on shared values still exist.
Unfortunately, I have very little tolerance for sitting through church services made up of things I don't think I will ever fully believe (e.g. the creed, the words of the majority of songs/hymns, etc.).
I agree with you. I have no belief in the supernatural but still think seeking God is a good thing.
I have the perfect solution. I puppy walk for Guide Dogs. So the pup comes with me to Church. It’s an excellent training opportunity for him and, when things get boring/impossibile to listen to/etc the puppy has a sudden call of nature and we go for a little walk (he’s well trained for it ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ). I still get all the benefits of church without having to assent to any nonsense. I give back by preparing all the PPs for the AV and pressing the AV buttons when the operators are away or poorly.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Margaret
Shipmate
# 283
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Posted
British Unitarians are a very diverse bunch, some still Arian Christian as the name suggests, some (I think the majority now) much more eclectic and closer to LutheranChik's description of the UUs. Every congregation is different and individual. I see you live in Bristol, where there are two congregations which might just be the sort of thing you're looking for.
Posts: 2456 | From: West Midlands UK | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
British Unitarians are a very diverse bunch, some still Arian Christian as the name suggests, some ... much more eclectic and closer to LutheranChik's description of the UUs.
I knew a Unitarian Minister who had to leave his congregation because he emphasised the "Free Christian" line and people didn't like that. In fact I think he was moving towards orthodox Trinitarianism from a more agnostic position.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
Thanks for responses so far, very thoughtful and insightful. I am thinking as I read.
I think I would struggle with the "emptying the mind" element of Buddhism. I am interested in Taoism but pretty sure there are few practising communities in the UK.
My local Unitarians seem fun.
[ 27. January 2018, 09:11: Message edited by: Orb ]
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Just to add .... If I understand this thread correctly ....
I follow a different path, that of non-theism as well described by David Boulton and others.
For me, this means that I no longer believe there is a GOD except that I am happy to accept that many people create their own GODS from within their creative imaginations, usually with input from other sources, and that they find their GODS satisfying / challenging. This by no means puts down other people nor does it seek to minimize their experiences, etc etc.. I respect their positions, just don't believe them to be true for me.
It also means that I do not call myself an agnostic.
I seem to remember that there was a thread on this subject some years ago?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Any form of seeking God is good providing it doesn’t impinge on any one else. Regardless of what ever one perceives Her/Him to be, or where ever one perceives Him/Her to be.
I have no advise as to how someone should go about this.
< Tangent > Sometimes wonder if we could call God “It”. Make this gender thing a whole lot more easy in a gender equal future. Have to say I am beginning to notice all the Him this an Him that in the readings, liturgy and hymns lately.
Somewhat stifling to spiritual growth in this day and age.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Orb, I don't know much about Unitarians. I've only once been inside the Unitarian chapel in Brunswick Square. It was on an Open Doors day when I was really in the area to get inside the Circomedia building nearby. So if you're really looking for some sort of spirituality rather than philosophical discourse, and find attending a Quaker meeting doesn't suit you, the Unitarians may not either. I've no idea what they do when they meet.
If what you're really fed up with is sitting through church services full of words that you have problems relating to, is it worth trying a form of worship that is predominantly musical, and/or in a language you don't know, either Cathedral Evensong, which is in English but not easy to catch the words, or something in, say, Latin, Greek or Slavonic?
Rolyn, could I come back on your 'it' point. It raises far more serious problems if one allocates 'it' to God rather than 'he'. Irrespective of how big an issue it might be whether God is male, female or genderless, it's a far bigger issue to suggest that God is not a person (or, to be more accurate, three persons) but a thing.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Orb
To what extent would you connect with Sunday Assembly which seems to focus on communality and celebrating the goodness of life rather than being strictly atheistic?
Another avenue to explore might be a philosophy group that asks "How to live a good life?" I only once and then only indirectly had contact with one of these groups but they still exist ('still' because I believe rather common in ancient Greece).
Susan Doris
Why I will not suggest a church, is because
- That is not what Orb asked for
- I have seen the compromise made to do that, it seldom works well. Totally happy to have people around churches who do not believe but want to be around but when an individual feels church attendance is compromising their integrity then there are struggles which seldom end well.
Jengie
[ 27. January 2018, 11:42: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ay up Orb. Distant false memories of seeing you about. There again, you appear to have a 5 year orb-it. I've moved a lot closer to where you are now over a couple or three of those. A lot. For me there have been two constants, being a soup kitchen volunteer for nearly two orbits. And touching base with my reformed former cult fellowship. They've become a neo-orthodox clearing house which helps me recalibrate when I get lost with postmodernism.
Fellowship, worship as in hiring people, forgive much. But I don't think you can and that's not a fault. I DO like the creeds, the ritual, as long as it's not too high up the candle with verbose utterly unmemorable hymns being a bigger turn off than PSA ones. Cathedral services are best in my experience. The least offensive services otherwise are Roman Catholic ones. As I'm sure Orthodox would be. I wouldn't bother with Unitarians. They're just honest Anglicans who can't be doing with the complexities of Trinitarianism. Which most Anglicans and other 'reformed' never address. Otherwise as broad and as deep and as narrow and shallow. I've never heard one say anything I'd hold up crossed candelabra to.
Good luck! See you in 2023. Let us know how you get on.
[ 27. January 2018, 12:36: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
It must be far more difficult in the US to find the kind of group you would like to find.
Not necessarily. In rural areas, prossibly. In other places, as others have said, a Unitarian Universalist congregation could be just the spot for Orb. But it sounds like there may not be a real UU counterpart in the UK.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I find the suggestions of Unitarians a bit odd; if you are yourself a Trinitarian Christian why would you point someone off in a direction that explicitly rejects that USP of your God?
Because we're not trying convert Orb to our beliefs. We're trying to help Orb find a place that fits where he or she is now.
[ 27. January 2018, 12:46: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Orb
To what extent would you connect with Sunday Assembly which seems to focus on communality and celebrating the goodness of life rather than being strictly atheistic?
This would feel even less authentic than attending church for me.
The philosophy group is an interesting idea but I am more interested in practising communities than merely discussion.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
P.S. I have no particular problems with either Unitarianism or Trinitarianism as ways of thinking about divinity - just the supernatural beliefs included as part of the linguistic practice.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Svit - I don't think agnostics of my type and if I understand them correctly, Orb, are going to be on the fringes of the Church. We're in it. Indeed, aren't most of us agnostics, unless we're of that what I understood to be a minority of people who are 100% sure of the existence of God? Rather than "believers" and "agnostics" isn't there a spectrum of confidence in God's existence, and perhaps more willingness on the part of some of us on the weaker confidence end to admit it's a form of agnosticism? And is the solution to my and Orb's problem more openness about that in the mainstream Church?
There are people at all stages of faith within the active life of the church, and that's fine. But my impression was that Orb didn't want to have to recite creeds and listen to doctrines that he simply didn't believe. Yet this is what happens in almost almost every church, so worshippers of all types have to put up with it.
So the issue here, AFAIUI, is how Orb can benefit from a supportive spiritual environment where he won't have to deal with teachings of which he disapproves. Your case is slightly different; you choose to attend church and struggle with its doctrines, rather than looking for a less creedal spiritual environment or, as I said, existing on the fringes where the doctrines will have less impact.
It takes all sorts.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
superb expression of my approach/feeling Raptor-eye.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Since Unitarianism has been mentioned in relation to Christianity on this thread, here is the website of the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship.
I'm on their mailing list, but don't much participate in their endeavours. I like some of their prayers, though, and their sermons and other materials seem fairly interesting.
One thing: One of their leading ministers was arrested for child-pornograpy last year. Not that I think this reflects badly on the overall group(he commited his alleged crimes as an individual, and the Fellowship itself was very open about the incident and forthright in its condemnation of him), but I do think it's something people should be made aware of when exploring a new group.
UU World on the arrest of Ron Robinson
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
I don't know what it is, but my links haven't been working too well lately. You can do a google on "Media roundup: Oklahoma minister arrested for child pornography" for the UU World article mentioned above.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Rolyn, could I come back on your 'it' point. It raises far more serious problems if one allocates 'it' to God rather than 'he'. Irrespective of how big an issue it might be whether God is male, female or genderless, it's a far bigger issue to suggest that God is not a person (or, to be more accurate, three persons) but a thing.
Having thought some more since posting, I agree that moving away from viewing God as a person could lead to problems.
Spiritual life is entirely dependent on love, or something undefined and ethereal. Going for an 'It' god in a bid to avoid present day gender issues could lead one towards sci-fi notions of an advanced computer or robot god.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Going for an 'It' god in a bid to avoid present day gender issues
Personally, my reasons for "going for an 'It' god" are not because of gender, but because of materialty vs. non-materiality. Gender characterizations are applied to living organisms, of which God is not.
That said, I do personally refer to God as "he"(I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to aesthetics), and am cool with portrayals of him(or her, if you prefer) as human. And I'm aware of the argument that "it" can only refer to material things.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Have you read any of Mark Vernon's books? He was an Anglican Priest, lost his faith and became an atheist for a spell. After finding that unsatisfying, he became an agnostic. He finds that quite a lot of ancient philosophy can be applied today as a way of finding meaning in life.
I find him particularly interesting and helpful because he is theologically and scientifically literate. He has a degree in theology from Oxford, another theology degree and a physics degree from Durham University and a PhD in philosophy from Warwick University. His books "How to be an Agnostic" and "Wellbeing" are my two favourites.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
No, I haven't, thanks for the tip!
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Karl: Regarding your question about why Trinidadian Christians would suggest other faith traditions to a seeking person: At this stage of my life I hold onto dogmas very, very lightly. I also don’t believe that non-Trinitarians or non- theists are “ going to hell” unless I convert them to the One True Faith [TM]. Orb asked for information, and I tried to provide some.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
British Unitarians are a very diverse bunch, some still Arian Christian as the name suggests, some ... much more eclectic and closer to LutheranChik's description of the UUs.
I knew a Unitarian Minister who had to leave his congregation because he emphasised the "Free Christian" line and people didn't like that. In fact I think he was moving towards orthodox Trinitarianism from a more agnostic position.
Absolutely. There are some Unitarians who describe themselves as Biblical Unitarians. They often take a very high view of scripture and believe in doctrines like the Virgin Birth. They would simply argue that key texts in the Fourth Gospel or Paul's epistles have been misinterpreted to justify Trinitarianism (as opposed to pre-existence - personal or otherwise). The American philosopher Dale Tuggy is one. Other Unitarians would still describe themselves as Christian (or liberal or free Christian) but see Jesus simply as a man (albeit inspired by God) and dismiss key NT texts. Some see the term 'Unitarian' as refering to the unity of truth and existence as much as the oneness of God.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Since Unitarianism has been mentioned in relation to Christianity on this thread, here is the website of the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship.
And a link to the more broad Unitarian Universalist Association, which is inclusive of a wide variety of belief and non-belief.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Choral Evensong at a Cathedral does it for me. Just sit there and let the wonderful music wash over you.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Many years ago I encountered a powerful discussion of The Lord's Prayer by Uniting Church retired Minister, long-serving Dean of the United Faculty of Theology and Top Bloke Bruce Barber.
It had a remarkable effect on me, in that it confirmed that I could indeed interpret a spiritual experience in a Christian context and that I wasn't wasting my time studying theology.
It addresses head on the concerns and questions in the OP, particularly as the author is an experienced and beautiful doubter who is writing for an educated audience. Indeed, the Church of St Mark the Evangelist, which has resurrected the work for a Lenten study, was the church of choice for Uniting Church luminaries for many years.
Bruce Barber: The Lord's Prayer for Lent
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Orb--
Hi. It's ok to be where you are.
I tend to pick up my theology and philosophy as I find it, or work it out on my own. You might take a look at my profile. There's a book list crammed into the nooks and crannies. Each of the books helped me at some point. (Sometimes, a resource is helpful at one point, and less so at another time.)
I'm thinking the "Woman's Book Of Spiritual Renewal" might be a good match. It's for women who are kind of in between about spirituality and religion. Long time since I read it, but I think the two women authors have Jewish roots. But they don't try to push you towards any particular belief or path. I don't know if you're female. But, if not, you can probably still get a lot of good out of the book.
Good luck! ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
It's impossible to tell what will speak to an individual reader, but I'll toss a suggestion into the ring. One author whose ideas resonate for me is Madeleine L'Engle. I find her Crosswicks Trilogy, especially the first volume, "A Circle of Quiet," accessible and engaging.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Even the disciples asked Jesus for their faith to be increased.
As if walking and eating with God’s One and only miracle working Son wasn’t quite enough.
I dunno 🤷♂️ Some people uh, ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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