Thread: Admitting to yourself you are an agnostic, but wanting more? Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Orb (# 3256) on :
 
I come to Ship of Fools to hear from Christians and others who have different experiences from me for their insights. It's the best place on the internet to come, I think. (I may be wrong!)

I have recently realised that I am an agnostic, of the "strong agnostic" variety.

In other words: I don't like supernatural religion of a fundamentalist nature and I don't like materialistic atheism of a fundamentalist nature.

I don't think anyone can have knowledge that there is a God, or indeed knowledge of God, or knowledge that God definitely doesn't exist. It's all guesswork and that's what I've realised I am fine with.

However, I do still think seeking God, engaging in spiritual/religious practice, and being part of a local practising community can be edifying and good things to do. I (generally) see churches as good influences in communities and some of the last places that genuine, rooted communities based on shared values still exist.

Unfortunately, I have very little tolerance for sitting through church services made up of things I don't think I will ever fully believe (e.g. the creed, the words of the majority of songs/hymns, etc.). Equally, I feel I am simply not built to be a Quaker. I cannot tolerate long periods of silence and find them a bit suffocating and, at times, annoying.

Should I be resigned to find spirituality and solace solely in things like my favourite music, profound cinematic experiences, the odd deep conversation with my friends?

Is there an approach you can recommend for finding beauty, peace and connection within certain spiritual traditions (your insight would be appreciated!) without getting hung up on the specific words I am hearing and the feeling I would be inauthentic to join in?

(Or perhaps you would simply like to try and convince me there is a way of knowing there's a God, or some other approach? I am genuinely open-minded about all this, even if I have come to a conclusion epistemologically-speaking.)

In short: help!
 

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Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
Maybe you're cut out to be a Unitarian Universalist? I don't know a great deal about them but what I do know sounds like it might fit your bill.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
Orb, I get it. The theology of some church services is more alien than others, and it has taken me a very long time and a lot of study to get used to and now to assent to saying or singing some of those words in all honesty.

If I hadn't experienced an extraordinary spiritual event during prayer, I wouldn't have started to go to church services at all. Now I can tolerate any of them, because I know where the theology comes from.

If I hadn't wanted to know firstly whether there is a God, and then more about God, I wouldn't have spent time reading the New Testament, soul searching, praying, doing my best to follow Jesus as told in the Bible, and allowing my thoughts to focus on this.

I have found that God is knowable, in the sense that the presence of God is detectable, not only in the numinous but also through intimate spiritual relationship. In time.

This relationship is not imagined. It is real enough to be continually affirmed, and to have had God's calling on me discerned by others.

It isn't easy, it's like climbing a mountain path. Once up there, the view is great but it still needs focus. It's worth it.
 

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Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
My favourite Canadian author, Robertson Davies wrestled the wrestle you're wrestling. This essay, particularly as you get half way and further, discusses it well.

"his religion seems to have been most nurtured by the thought of Carl Jung, whose insistence on God as a psychological fact of human nature". About which we must realize has nothing to do with whether God exists or not: God is present in our minds any how.

My distinct bias for questions such as your's follows two paths. The first is to get what you can from where you can. Music within church is one which works for me: vibrate my bones yon organ!

The second is to avoid the True Believers. They want to sell you the medicine which comforts their lives, and your prescription need is for a different life. With Robertson Davies in mind, I recommend reading his "The Cunning Man" who doctors while living in a Glebe House in a church yard, after being raised among Indian faith healers, a friend who is a true believer, serving in WW2. Literature has taught me more than scripture since the grave challenges of life battered my bible.
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
Amen! (to raptor eye, but hey, to you both )

(There, I can say that now and I know what I mean by it, but once it was someone else's jargon and I hated it, wanted them to explain themselves properly in language which was open to all, and not just jargon. We often move around, in our relationship with God. This seems to be OK, judging by what happened to a lot of people in the bible. I expect you'll move around too.)

And a concrete thing to try - have a look at sacredspace.ie Meditation / contemplation - not for everyone, but who knows, maybe you'll like it.

[ 26. January 2018, 18:38: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
In my city Buddhism seems to offer opportunities for group meditation and other occasional gatherings, but I'm not sure if there are liturgies that may provide a theological stumbling block for an agnostic.

Regarding Christianity, I find that some agnostics benefit from existing on the fringe of church life, perhaps vicariously through family members or close friends who attend regularly. Some people keep themselves informed about special services or social events, and participate as a part of the local community rather than as a committed worshipper.

My local liberal catholic CofE church has loads of community events going on, and I suppose that attending some of these creates a sense of belonging that doesn't rely on belief, or on regular attendance at services.
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
The Unitarian Universalist Church nearest us has sub- groups for people interested in Buddhist practice ( without necessarily self- identifying as a Buddhist), people interested in earth-based spirituality, and people with a primary interest in social activism. I haven’t been to a Sunday service, but the sermon themes seem to be general “ how to live a good life” meditations. It sounds like a great place for someone who wants to have a spiritual community without necessarily being theistic.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
AFAIK, the Unitarian Universalitsts don't exist in the UK. Here it's just the plain Unitarians.

British Unitarians are few in number, and we hear very little about their practices and beliefs. They're known to be very liberal, although one Unitarian blogger I used to read said they weren't always as liberal as people imagined.

I suspect that in many British towns and cities, their membership is dominated by ageing people who were born into the religion, so their openness to absorbing a raft of ideas from other religions can't be taken for granted. It would be interesting to know where the most radical, dynamic congregations are. I'd guess in London, but I could be wrong.

In my city I should think there are far more self-professed Buddhists (and Buddhist networks, classes and meditation groups, etc.) than there are Unitarians.
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
There is a storefront Unitarian startup in a small Lake Michigan town where we enjoy vacationing. That part of our state is heavily populated with old- skool, conservative Dutch Christian Reformed types, which along with UU’s not being particularly evangelistic makes this outpost quite intriguing to me.. ( Although in my experience Calvin College in Grand Rapids, the CRC’s intellectual epicenter, ha reduced some of the most liberal ex- Calvinists I’ve ever known.)
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Orb

I read your OP and managed to stop myself from immediately responding and read all the other, as always very interesting, posts first!

The page you linked to is very clear isn't it? For me of course the only thing to be is an agnostic of the variety who go for 99.99% probability of there never being objective evidence of a God, and the 0.01% of there being one somewhere. I will always keep that gap in mind.

I se you joined SofF back in 2002 so I wonder whether you have read some of my posts along the way?

Did you ever read the ‘Thursday Next’ series by Jasper Fforde? In it, her brother is the Vicar of the GPD – General Purpose Deity – ‘church’. Everybody is automatically a member, whether attending the regular ‘services’ or not, everybody knows there isn’t a God/god/something, but they all eenjoy being part of the community, the routine, well, just the fact that it is there.! It would be the perfect, world-wide solution!

It must be far more difficult in the US to find the kind of group you would like to find. Although I lacked any belief in god for quite a long while before stopping being in the church choir, I finally just could not sit there and listen to the words of the services!! I attend Humanist group meetings when I can, but, as I mentioned on another thread the other day, it is a pity they do not have a book of rousing songs
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
You might find Jules Evans's book, 'The Art of Losing Control' quite helpful.

I'm a fully paid up theist and I found it so.

Evans has had some kind of mystical 'near death' experience and although a strong agnostic wants to make room for the numinous and the transcendent without significant up for this, that or the other faith-position.

From your description in the OP you sound very much on the same page as him.

He writes wittily, insightfully and not unsympathetically about his sojourn in charismatic evangelicalism and his exploration of alternative spiritualities. The book contains no surprises how he ends up - and I'm issuing no spoilers by saying that it's in a similar place to the position you describe in your own case.

Essentially, it's humanism, a splurge of Stoicism and Mindfulness with a mid towards Buddhism and traditional Christian practices but shorn of creedal content.

I'm not sure you'd learn a huge amount you didn't already know but I'm sure you'd enjoy the ride and find him a delightful companion and fellow-traveller along the way.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Orb, you are me and ICMFP.

I find the suggestions of Unitarians a bit odd; if you are yourself a Trinitarian Christian why would you point someone off in a direction that explicitly rejects that USP of your God? For me at any rate it's specifically Trinitarian Christianity I'm unsure about if that makes any sense. It's the idea of the Incarnation that I find intriguing and attractive and want to explore, even if I can't be sure it's true, and more significantly to the concept of Agnosticism, do not think it can be known for certain to be true.

Svit - I don't think agnostics of my type and if I understand them correctly, Orb, are going to be on the fringes of the Church. We're in it. Indeed, aren't most of us agnostics, unless we're of that what I understood to be a minority of people who are 100% sure of the existence of God? Rather than "believers" and "agnostics" isn't there a spectrum of confidence in God's existence, and perhaps more willingness on the part of some of us on the weaker confidence end to admit it's a form of agnosticism? And is the solution to my and Orb's problem more openness about that in the mainstream Church?

[ 27. January 2018, 07:36: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Orb said -

quote:

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However, I do still think seeking God, engaging in spiritual/religious practice, and being part of a local practising community can be edifying and good things to do. I (generally) see churches as good influences in communities and some of the last places that genuine, rooted communities based on shared values still exist.

Unfortunately, I have very little tolerance for sitting through church services made up of things I don't think I will ever fully believe (e.g. the creed, the words of the majority of songs/hymns, etc.).

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I agree with you. I have no belief in the supernatural but still think seeking God is a good thing.

I have the perfect solution. I puppy walk for Guide Dogs. So the pup comes with me to Church. It’s an excellent training opportunity for him and, when things get boring/impossibile to listen to/etc the puppy has a sudden call of nature and we go for a little walk (he’s well trained for it ). I still get all the benefits of church without having to assent to any nonsense. I give back by preparing all the PPs for the AV and pressing the AV buttons when the operators are away or poorly.
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
British Unitarians are a very diverse bunch, some still Arian Christian as the name suggests, some (I think the majority now) much more eclectic and closer to LutheranChik's description of the UUs. Every congregation is different and individual. I see you live in Bristol, where there are two congregations which might just be the sort of thing you're looking for.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Margaret:
British Unitarians are a very diverse bunch, some still Arian Christian as the name suggests, some ... much more eclectic and closer to LutheranChik's description of the UUs.

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1. That is not what Orb asked for
2. I have seen the compromise made to do that, it seldom works well. Totally happy to have people around churches who do not believe but want to be around but when an individual feels church attendance is compromising their integrity then there are struggles which seldom end well.

quote:

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
It must be far more difficult in the US to find the kind of group you would like to find.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I find the suggestions of Unitarians a bit odd; if you are yourself a Trinitarian Christian why would you point someone off in a direction that explicitly rejects that USP of your God?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Orb

To what extent would you connect with Sunday Assembly which seems to focus on communality and celebrating the goodness of life rather than being strictly atheistic?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:


Svit - I don't think agnostics of my type and if I understand them correctly, Orb, are going to be on the fringes of the Church. We're in it. Indeed, aren't most of us agnostics, unless we're of that what I understood to be a minority of people who are 100% sure of the existence of God? Rather than "believers" and "agnostics" isn't there a spectrum of confidence in God's existence, and perhaps more willingness on the part of some of us on the weaker confidence end to admit it's a form of agnosticism? And is the solution to my and Orb's problem more openness about that in the mainstream Church?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Rolyn, could I come back on your 'it' point. It raises far more serious problems if one allocates 'it' to God rather than 'he'. Irrespective of how big an issue it might be whether God is male, female or genderless, it's a far bigger issue to suggest that God is not a person (or, to be more accurate, three persons) but a thing.

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quote:

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Going for an 'It' god in a bid to avoid present day gender issues

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Margaret:
British Unitarians are a very diverse bunch, some still Arian Christian as the name suggests, some ... much more eclectic and closer to LutheranChik's description of the UUs.

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I knew a Unitarian Minister who had to leave his congregation because he emphasised the "Free Christian" line and people didn't like that. In fact I think he was moving towards orthodox Trinitarianism from a more agnostic position.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Since Unitarianism has been mentioned in relation to Christianity on this thread, here is the website of the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship.

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And a link to the more broad Unitarian Universalist Association, which is inclusive of a wide variety of belief and non-belief.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Choral Evensong at a Cathedral does it for me. Just sit there and let the wonderful music wash over you.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
For British readers, I think this is the relevant Unitarian website.
 

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Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
Many years ago I encountered a powerful discussion of The Lord's Prayer by Uniting Church retired Minister, long-serving Dean of the United Faculty of Theology and Top Bloke Bruce Barber.

It had a remarkable effect on me, in that it confirmed that I could indeed interpret a spiritual experience in a Christian context and that I wasn't wasting my time studying theology.

It addresses head on the concerns and questions in the OP, particularly as the author is an experienced and beautiful doubter who is writing for an educated audience. Indeed, the Church of St Mark the Evangelist, which has resurrected the work for a Lenten study, was the church of choice for Uniting Church luminaries for many years.

Bruce Barber: The Lord's Prayer for Lent
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Orb--

Hi. It's ok to be where you are.

I tend to pick up my theology and philosophy as I find it, or work it out on my own. You might take a look at my profile. There's a book list crammed into the nooks and crannies. Each of the books helped me at some point. (Sometimes, a resource is helpful at one point, and less so at another time.)

I'm thinking the "Woman's Book Of Spiritual Renewal" might be a good match. It's for women who are kind of in between about spirituality and religion. Long time since I read it, but I think the two women authors have Jewish roots. But they don't try to push you towards any particular belief or path. I don't know if you're female. But, if not, you can probably still get a lot of good out of the book.

Good luck!
 

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Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 
It's impossible to tell what will speak to an individual reader, but I'll toss a suggestion into the ring. One author whose ideas resonate for me is Madeleine L'Engle. I find her Crosswicks Trilogy, especially the first volume, "A Circle of Quiet," accessible and engaging.
 

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Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :
 
Faith has more to do with ‘wanting more’ than it does with an easy belief.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Even the disciples asked Jesus for their faith to be increased.
As if walking and eating with God’s One and only miracle working Son wasn’t quite enough.

I dunno 🤷‍♂️ Some people uh,
 

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