|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Engaging With People Who Are Antithetical To You
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
It’s been said that part of the problem behind the increasing social polarization in places like the US is the fact that, despite a more diverse population in many ways, it has become easier to self- segregate into our own little in- groups. Cocooned in our homes, our reality curated by our devices, we can feel as if we have a huge group of friends and associates without ever meaningfully interacting with our immediate neighbors.
My spouse and I struggle mightily with this because we are in several “out” group categories in our rural, überconservative community. We have talked about it and resolved that we want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem, by spreading our social capital around and engaging with people around us even if we know they are at some opposite sociopolitical/religious pole.
One problem I have, though, is going to events sponsored by churches whose beliefs on any number of issues are quite antithetical to our own — who in fact actively advocate/finance/ organize activities we find reprehensible. For instance, we were invited to go to a Christmas concert at a church we know was behind a whispering campaign to boycott certain minority businesses in town. We declined to attend, and we’ve also not gone to any of their yard sales or other community events, even ones we might have taken an interest in.
Here is my question: in the interest of putting ourselves out there as real human beings, real neighbors in their midst, and not abstractions — is it a good idea to go to such a place’s events anyway? I mean, how will these people ever know that DS and I are good people and good neighbors if they don’t know us? Or do we risk being seen as patsies, or idiots?Is there any outcome worth the cognitive dissonance, or the risk that they’d see our warm bodies in their building as some sort of proof that they’re doing meritorious things?
A friend of ours, a pastor, sings in a community choir seated in a church whose denomination is openly hostile to ours. They don’t ordain women, which makes her presence in their church especially angsty...but she likes to sing, and has decided she is going to be part of this thing, and if some of the church folks there are bent out of shape...oh, well. “ Hello — it’s me again.”
Is this building community on the down- low level? Is it something we should emulate in our own contexts?
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
I would guess there are levels of shite, and we end up drawing the line based on the grace we've been given.
I mean - I think I'd find it pretty hard to go somewhere and deal with 'we hate you' ideas straight at me. Though - with a lot of prayer and fasting (I'm serious!) - it might be possible, if we were called to that specific thing.
People we have something substantial in common with, who (misguidedly, we hope) have something strong against people we love? Well, I'm there at the moment, and it is OK-ish. It's their turf - I don't set out to antagonise them - and some issues can join a small list between us which we agree to disagree on. I think that's OK - and now and again we can perhaps visit those issues (once we respect each other and have a relationship we both value and want to maintain) without making them the reason we meet (and simply wind each other up).
Does me being there legitimise them? Not in their eyes - they have their own faith. And in anyone else's? I doubt my presence at anything at all, is at all noteworthy - who the hell am I? But if someone (say at work?) were to pick me up on it - great, I'd be happy to discuss it (and my reservations) seriously.
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
|
Posted
Just to add: it helps that in my context, everyone's church is dying. I'd find it harder to sit in on a big successful group where I didn't fit in.
--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
I agree that British Christians on the whole are a little more humble as a result of their churches all facing challenges. And arguing about religious doctrine is simply so much more of a minority sport here (hence the Ship!). Ecumenicalism itself largely exists as means of mutual support, not an opportunity to insult other churchgoers' politics or views on SSM, etc.
From the Ship I get the impression that some of the liveliest religious disagreement in England occurs within one denomination - the CofE. This is understandable. The religious context in England is fraught with differences that are not only doctrinal, but also institutional, cultural and sociological. These days it would be problematic for the dominant CofE to pour its disapproval onto independent groups that are weaker, smaller, made up of members who are perhaps mostly working class or of BAME origins. Far easier to expend that energy on middle class evangelical subgroups within the very diverse institution.
The small independent groups may themselves be very critical of others, of course, but their lesser status means they can be ignored - unless one of their members is related to you, or happens to be an unavoidable acquaintance....
This is probably of no help to someone who lives in the very different religious environment of the USA, though! Sorry!
[ 27. January 2018, 00:13: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
Theological differences among Christians make up only a small part of the antagonism here...although a worst.case scenario in my mind has white nationalists and politicized conservative Evangelicals here ginning up antagonism toward mainline Protestants, insufficiently conservative Catholics and small sects that don’t tie their ideological line.
We have very few racial minorities in our area, and most of the few we do have live in public housing, which doesn’t help local perception of them. We have few immigrants and guest workers as well — a few Mexican farm workers and a few doctors from various countries who work at the local hospital. I cannot think of a single Jewish family in this town. It’s an atmosphere that contributes to misunderstanding and mistrust of The Other. There are “ out” LGBTQ people in town, but again some people have a not- very- secret agenda of running LGBTQ business owners out of business, discriminating against them as vendors- and denying us service ( like a local event venue.)
My attitude used to be, “ **** you, too — I wouldn’t set foot in your miserable church or business anyway” — but what good does that do? How does that change hearts and minds?
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
I would guess there are levels of shite, and we end up drawing the line based on the grace we've been given.
This is very wise.
quote:
One problem I have, though, is going to events sponsored by churches whose beliefs on any number of issues are quite antithetical to our own — who in fact actively advocate/finance/ organize activities we find reprehensible. For instance, we were invited to go to a Christmas concert at a church we know was behind a whispering campaign to boycott certain minority businesses in town. We declined to attend, and we’ve also not gone to any of their yard sales or other community events, even ones we might have taken an interest in.
I think its one thing to seek to engage with people of different views, and another to go to events and fundraisers at their churches. I think the latter is tacit endorsement of their church and its activities in an Australian context. Having a chat in the street or the supermarket is as far as I would go.
The minister and her husband next door are from a virulently anti-LGBT church, and I shudder to think what else. Their church supports an anti-muslim "Christian" political party. We take their Christmas card and calendar (but don't give one) and chat over the fence and do each other's nature strip. But both churches I attend have mistreated children abused by their clergy and one refuses to ordain women. Am I a hypocrite for wanting to limit my contact with them? Possibly.
I'm going to spend time with people in the USA who hold some political and religious views that are pro-Trump and anti-LGBT and minorities, but they are both 86. I have a history with these people as surrogate parents for a year. Their views were the same in the 1980's. Mine were in formation. In this case, we just agree to steer clear of touchy subjects so that we can continue to love each other.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
LutheranChik
I'm not sure if attending something else's church with the aim of changing that church's theology is likely to be fruitful. For a start, it might seem presumptuous to some.
Perhaps it would be better to create or to support some kind of goal-oriented community group on more neutral territory, a group designed to attract a diverse mixture of people from the community.
IMO attitudes are more likely to change when friendships are formed as people strive together to reach practical common goals, rather than as a result of arguments begun by individuals who've come along with the goal of informing strangers of their errors.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
My attitude used to be, “ **** you, too — I wouldn’t set foot in your miserable church or business anyway” — but what good does that do? How does that change hearts and minds?
If your aim is to change hearts and minds, then don't engage. You'll burn out quicker than a fire cracker.
One of the things that a very anti-muslim woman from Croatia said to me once was that during the Yugoslav war, Muslims you used to say hello to in the street would shoot at you. I believed her, while rejecting her message.
Perhaps the aim should be to make them think twice in the next war, so you have time to escape.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
bloody hell. I'm such an idiot. There's no comparison between the situation in the balkans and the USA. Sorry.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
|
Posted
I wouldn't go to fundamentalist, racist or discriminatory churches. It does only encourage them.
Is there a Churches Together type place locally where you can go along and actively call out and condemn the aforementioned whispering campaign? It's completely outrageous that that has been allowed to happen.
Bad politics demands good politics, particularly in the American context.
--------------------
“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Two thoughts. I don't know whether either of these is at all helpful. You might be shocked by them.
The first is that we are none of us individually called to solve all the world's problems. There are hundreds of good causes in the world. You can only engage with a few of them. You can't even engage with all the one's you agree with. There isn't time or space. So there's nothing wrong on concentrating on those you feel strongly about, feel called to do something about, can do something about or are excited by.
Second, the corollary is that none of us are entitled to tell other people which causes they should get engaged with. I may be excited about the environment. say. You may be excited about modern slavery, say. They are both good causes. But I'm not entitled to tell you off when you don't assiduously put your rubbish in the right bins. And you're not entitled to tell me off if I go to visit a nature reserve when you're trying to get people to protest outside a club which you think is exploiting illegal female immigrants.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
Orb: Unfortunately, no, there’s no real counterpoint to Churches Together in the US, and in fact local ministerial associations tend to be heavy on fundamentalist pastors — part of their triumphalist culture- war campaign. (Our pastor friend has not had a good experience with her particular local group.) What we did do was tell our friends about what was going on. My spouse also pointedly asked one of the local businesspeople affiliated with the “whispering” church in question if it were true that her business would not hire vendors for its events who were LGBTQ, and failed to get a response.
Enoch: It is true that I’m not sure this is a particular hill I wish to die on, especially since we plan on moving to a rather more cosmopolitan area. And it isn’t as if my spouse and I wear our freak flags, as they say, in public, so most of these people wouldn’t know that a pair of the Unclean had crossed their threshold unless we told them. But I find it irksome to have to self- segregate/negotiate our relationships with businesses and community groups in the current Balkanized atmosphere. And. again, how will people get over their fear of The Other if they never actually encounter any Others in their daily lives?
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
LutheranChik
Your reference to culture wars really struck home for me. My spouse and I would both say that our journey has been out of conservative evangelicalism via renewal, positive ecumenical experiences, and exploring contemplation. Membership here for a dozen years has also helped a lot. One of the results of that particular journey is that we have friends and acquaintances all over the Christian spectrum, some of whom are indeed engaged in culture wars. We put up with the fact that for some people we are regarded as 'odd'. It's by no means as difficult to cope with as incipient homophobia, or inappropriate condescension. But it gets a bit wearing. We persevere, seek to be kind, don't duck issues in discussions.
I guess we share your motivation that we think there is a value to others in meeting folks whose outlook is different to theirs, but whose friendship they seem to value. We're pilgrims with companions and journeying together despite differences strikes us as of some importance. Hopefully this does some good. As observed upthread, there are tolerance limits but in terms of friends and acquaintances they seem to us to be best worked out one at time.
I suppose there is an advantage in getting older. We always have the 'gaga' defence!
[ 27. January 2018, 22:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
You're going to a Lady Gaga concert and can't attend the event?
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
A 75 year old like me can get away with the non-PC 'gaga'. To go 'gaga' means deterioration of mental faculties through ageing.
[ 28. January 2018, 04:09: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
yep. I should have done a joke thingo. But I'm still laughing at my cleverness, so I'll do one now ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
persevere, seek to be kind, don't duck issues in discussions.
For me, this is the way to go. I would not attend their church services but would go to community social events provided that they were not fund-raisers for issues that appalled me.
At such events, there are opportunities to chat, to get to know one another, and to find the other to be human. That said, I would speak my truth tactfully but honestly when issues arise.
I would hope that the prior connection through our common humanity would soften stances or reactions even if I had no hope of changing them, and build some understanding that decent people may differ in their views. The worst scenario would hopefully be that I was not invited again.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
yep. I should have done a joke thingo. But I'm still laughing at my cleverness, so I'll do one now
A B62 gaga sign! Actually I thought 'gaga' was an old idiom and might not cross age or country boundaries.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
Morgan
Thanks. I think it helps to recognise that good people trapped in self-enclosing ideologies often have real doubts about some of the group values.
We know very well a gay woman who served a local church community well and faithfully. When she came out, eventually, she was pretty badly treated by the church leadership and eventually, reluctantly, left. One of the questions we have asked folks we know in that community is this one. 'Dont you think that after 15 years doing a lot of good stuff, she was entitled to a bit more trust?'It's made a difference. Exemplary behaviour, listening, asking questions, these things can help some folks begin to do their own unlocking. But you need to risk relating to the trapped. Rejection just pushes them deeper into the laager.
There are a lot of lost sheep in the laager.
[ 28. January 2018, 09:21: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Russ
Old salt
# 120
|
Posted
They say you choose your friends but you don't choose your family.
You also, except to a limited extent, don't choose your neighbours.
Sounds like you're trying to navigate the line between being a good neighbour to this church and being a supporter of the church.
Don't know that there's much anyone can say to help you do that.
--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
Heck, Russ, I understand community loyalty. I've been in the same church for 43 years. Seen it through a lot of changes. But it isn't an absolute. Community loyalty without critical appreciation can get you into a whole lot of trouble. Spiritual abuse by church leaders is a real thing. As is wrong headedness. As is fear of stepping out of line.
The truth does not undermine. Unthinking loyalty undermines the truth. Remembering these things, as well as recognising the challenges to my own fallibility in figuring out what the truth is, inform my day to day decisions about relating to anyone, whether inside our outside my community. And I live with my choices.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
I watched a TV programme with Miriam Margolyes. She was touring the southern USA meeting people and families. One family were a lovely bunch, really helpful, friendly and kind.
But their views were simply horrendous, exclusive and unbelievably judgemental. I really struggled to see how such kind and caring people could hold such views, but they did.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
A billion or so Muslims manage it.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
A billion or so Muslims manage it.
I live next door to Muslims on both sides and they don’t have exclusive or horrendous views, not in the least.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
My most excellent, best ever neighbours are Muslim too. Their theology is as bad as Westborough's and worse. Like most theology. Ghastly.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think it helps to recognise that good people trapped in self-enclosing ideologies often have real doubts about some of the group values.
. . . Exemplary behaviour, listening, asking questions, these things can help some folks begin to do their own unlocking. But you need to risk relating to the trapped. Rejection just pushes them deeper into the laager.
There are a lot of lost sheep in the laager.
Good point. Sometimes those relationships can be a lifeline to survival.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
