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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Churching of Women: Misogynistic?
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Last year, when we discussed the rite of the churching of women in the Anglican church, I heard that the response that this rite was misogynistic because it forced women who after giving birth, to be stuck in the back pew as "unclean" until they are churched (have this liturgy) to become clean.
I think this is a confusion between the Anglican churching of women and the Levitical laws of purity in which women had to engage in ritual washing after childbirth.
In the modern liturgies, the term 'churching of women' has fallen out of favor replaced by the term 'thanksgiving after childbirth'
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Errr...say what?
Would you please explain the Anglican aspect of this? Seems open to interpretation, and I'd like to know what's what before I go ballistic! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
Wikipedia has an article on rituals of the churching of women in various traditions. Apparently it can be seen as purification, blessing, or thanksgiving.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Here is the BCP liturgy. It's quite clearly about giving thanks after coming through mortal peril, and I assume it's dropped out of favour partly because childbirth is no longer seen as dangerous to the same degree.
We had a sermon though on Sunday in which the preacher said that in the Olden Days all sorts of superstitions accrued on the rite, and that mothers-in-law used to refuse to see their daughters-in-law after childbirth until the latter had been churched. Is this true?
[ 01. February 2018, 05:00: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thanks, Dave. Seems rather murky. Might depend on how the individual woman, clergy, and congregation view it. But if someone thinks that a new mom is impure...
{Gets a clue bat.}
Reminds me, though, of the ritual mikveh bath in Judaism. I thought it was just for women, on a monthly basis (after menstruation); but converts and some men do it, too. I tend to think that the women's version was originally a goddessy thing, because it can be nurturing and rejuvenating. There is also a purification aspect. Looking through some of the rules at Mikvah.org, I think maybe there is/was a sexual hygiene aspect. The Mikvah site is really beautiful, by the way. It mostly focuses on the women's ritual. The "About" tab has a "What is a mikvah?" section. There are mini videos there, with both audio and closed captions. And the "Mikvah" section of the "Inspiration" tab has women writing about their own experiences.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Yes. Often especially if presided over by elderly male, High Church, bachelor priests.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Not sure about this thread Shipmates. Misogyny threads nearly always end up in Dead Horses, threads about Church rites are more suitable for Ecclesiantics! Will consult, meanwhile carry on here.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I have always thought the Churching Of Women was something we women/feminists could "reclaim" and "take back"
As a woman and a mother I am very aware of the stages of the "Journey" of pregnancy, birth, privacy/seclusion/openness, and return
And however an individual woman chooses to negotiate that "Journey" can be supported by their church community. Whether that be by formal liturgy or a quiet conversation over a cup of tea; and everything in between.
Being a woman and becoming a mother is a very Broad Church too, you know
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
A bit of background.
Churching is in the 1662 BCP and was more or less universal until it gradually seems to have faded away since 1945. The BCP right is thanksgiving for delivery from childbirth which is dangerous and potentially fatal.
It had, though, accreted a number of folk beliefs, many of them a bit inchoate and incoherent, including a belief that giving birth caused impurity. Traditional clergy were adamant that the ceremony was compulsory and necessary. However, these folk beliefs tended more to be kept alive among women rather than clergy. They were passed on from mother to daughter. There were also folk traditions that attached to how it was done.
It is also about liminality, in this case for the mother, not the baby. She goes into childbirth - as marked by the word 'confinement'. Churching brings her out again.
It is possible that the Reformers may have been consciously simplifying an earlier ceremony which had more superstitious features. I don't know if there is, or was pre Vatican II, a corresponding RC ceremony that might give an indication of this. Does any shipmate know?
I think churching faded away because modern middle class women, many of whom had been in the forces, just gradually stopped doing it, and this spread down the social scale. I asked around a few years ago, and several now in their 80-90s had been churched, only one woman my age - I think at her mother's insistence, and none younger. I think the latter case would have been 40-45 years ago. The baby in question now has teenage children. There's anecdotal evidence that it survived longest in the NW Midlands, a triangle between Wolverhampton, Manchester and Liverpool.
I don't know if it's still done anywhere.
Common Worship provides rather an attractive new service of thanksgiving and dedication that could be used as its replacement. Some churches use a version of it as a dedication for those who don't really agree with infant baptism. But I know of one church a few miles away from here which uses it shortly after birth as the beginning of baptism preparation, leading up to baptism 6-8 weeks later.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The Catholic Encyclopedia or Wikipedia will give you ample information on the RC practice,sometimes called the 'churching of women'
In Latin called a 'Thanksgiving after birth'
It is an ancient practice of both Western and Eastern Church and indeed retained after the Reformation by the Church of England.
In the modern Catholic rite when parents present a child for baptism, there is at the end of the rite of baptism a special prayer and blessing for the mother of the child as indeed also for the father of the child. This is important as the parents will be the first teachers of the child in the ways of faith.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The idea of 'purification' after childbirth comes from earlier Jewish practice. On the second of February,40 days after the commemoration of the Birth of Jesus, the Church celebrates what used to be called the 'Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary'. As many probably know it is now called by another name 'The Presentation of the Lord'.
One of the traditions of that feast day (nothing to do with purification nor with presentation) is that the weather on that day will give an indication of how the weather will be later on in the year. There are sayings in many European languages that if the weather is bad on 2nd Feb. the summer will be good and vice versa.
An American version of this is Groundhog Day on 2nd February.The custom was brought to USA by German Catholics who denuded the custom of any direct religious associations.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't know if it's still done anywhere.
IIRC the wife of a poster on here was churched within the last year or two. I won't name them but I only know because they posted to that effect the last time this came up on here.
[ 01. February 2018, 10:51: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I've not known the service (within the Anglican context) performed in any church of my experience.
FWIW, the Shorter Prayer Book published in 1946, and intended to make the 1662 BCP a little more user-friendly, does not include The Churching Of Women. Perhaps it was already falling into desuetude even then.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think the folk-religion which had grown up around it made it untenable. My mother was led to believe in the 50s that one was seeking forgiveness for having had a baby, because that implied... sex...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Yes indeed, and according to Ritual Notes a woman who had had a child outside wedlock had to do some form of penance before being 'churched', presumably even if she had been made pregnant by being raped....
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Don't forget that the traditional CofE title for Candlemas is The Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and it was coupled together with the Presentation of the Child Jesus in the Temple.
I always understood that the timing of The Purification was roughly when it was assumed a woman would have ceased post-partum bleeding.
As for the Churching, the emphasis is very much on thanksgiving for having survived the perils of childbirth; the revision of 1928 added that a husband might accompany the woman and additional prayers were added, one of thanks for a live birth and the other very definitely geared towards someone who had suffered stillbirth or similar tragedy. Certainly in admitting the possibility that not all experiences of childbirth were good the 1928 provision was ahead of its time.
As for churching being misogynistic, I don't think so. While it is possible for a male partner/parent to give thanks after the birth of a child, it isn't them who has given birth - that experience is unique to the mother and biology decrees she is female.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Fair point re Candlemas.
The 1928 BCP was certainly ahead of its time in some ways. Pity it was never made 'legal'.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I've done the service, by request, I suppose half a dozen times, most recently in 2017. Half of those were for mothers suffering post-natal depression. Half were mothers whose families had a tradition of it. All were by request. In fact, I've had women turn up at the church's vestry hour asking to be churched. I think it's a great service, despite the various bits of folklore that grew up around it. It keeps the mother and her experience at the centre. It's not all about the baby, like so many other services. Plus, it has (thanks to John Cosin), Psalm 116, which contains the line 'Then I said in my haste, "All men are liars."'
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Do you use the BCP service, Amos?
It's interesting to learn that it can be of help to those suffering PND. Perhaps it should be used more, given the stressful times we live in, maybe as part of the Church's healing ministry?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Yes, I use the BCP. It's the only version I know. And I've always considered it as part of the ministry of healing. A woman who has given birth has come through a huge, dangerous, life-changing experience. This service, properly understood, is entirely focussed on bringing it, and her into the light of God's creative, redemptive, healing love.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, that puts it into a really positive light. Thank you.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
OK, you've convinced the hosts. To Eccles with you.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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