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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Any thoughts on this?
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Rob B
Apprentice
# 18910
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Posted
Any thoughts on this School of Life video?
web page
Or any general thoughts about the School of Life?
Posts: 20 | From: Clevedon, England. | Registered: Feb 2018
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Could you say how long the video is, please?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
If you mean the idea that Jesus should be considered a great moral philosopher, I don't think that's gonna be startingly original to most of the people reading this forum. Might be insightful for some of the You Tubers who come across it.
As for the interpretation of the Bible passage, I think they've basically got it down pat. I think that particular story can be a little confusing, though, because it can be read as an argument against punishment generally(as opposed to just self-righteous punishment), which is pretty inapplicable.
I've sometimes wondered if Jesus was "cheating" a little by choosing a more-or-less victimless, with a particularly harsh punishment, to make his point. What if they were going to execute a child-killer, for example? I don't see any reason why the injunction about "Let he who is without sin..." wouldn't apply there as well. But I think most people would still say "Well, maybe I haven't always been as nice to kids as a I should, but I still think I'm a helluva lot better than someone who murders them."
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
Any thoughts on this School of Life video?
web page
It's just meh. What do you think? What do you want to talk about?
quote:
Or any general thoughts about the School of Life?
I think you need to do a lot more work intriducing the subject if you are expecting useful replies. What do you think about it?
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arse
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
Or any general thoughts about the School of Life?
I think you need to do a lot more work intriducing the subject if you are expecting useful replies.
Especially for those of us who’ve never heard of the School of Life.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Rob B
Apprentice
# 18910
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
Any thoughts on this School of Life video?
web page
It's just meh. What do you think? What do you want to talk about?
quote:
Or any general thoughts about the School of Life?
I think you need to do a lot more work intriducing the subject if you are expecting useful replies. What do you think about it?
Oh dear. More work on introducing the subject? Why when I'm genuinely interested in what other's think? Nah. But since you ask Um...I like School of Life's work in spreading useful interesting stuff on Youtube. If you want more, ask nicely.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 20 | From: Clevedon, England. | Registered: Feb 2018
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Rob B:
Persuant to what I wrote in the first paragraph of my previous post, I think the video understates the extent to which people, including the non-theologizing general public, are familiar with the idea of Jesus being a moral philosopher.
Just taking the relevant lesson from that one passage, "Casting the first stone" has entered the everyday parlance as a catchphrase for criticizing hypocrisy. I'm sure, just off the top of your head, you could think of about half-a-dozen other such phrases of Jesus which enjoy the same degree of popular recognition.
It's still a good explication of the meaning of that particular story, but I'd cut out the first part implying that people only think about divinity or non-divinity when considering Jesus.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
Oh dear. More work on introducing the subject? Why when I'm genuinely interested in what other's think?
ISTM that there is nothing to discuss here and that the OPer hasn't done the minimum necessary work to start a thread in Purgatory.
quote:
Nah. But since you ask Um...I like School of Life's work in spreading useful interesting stuff on Youtube. If you want more, ask nicely.
You realise this board is for serious discussion, do you?
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arse
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
It may be old news. That does not mean that it is unimportant news. Nor does the fact that it has been around as a moral principal mean it is followed.
Most of us want to be right and good. We also know that we have character defects, a dark side if you will. Look at all the political leaders who get caught in - all kinds of awful behavior. Look at friends who seem to have idyllic lives who end up getting divorced over affairs, alcohol, or both.
So, my belief is to make ourselves feel better about our little indiscretions in behavior we judge others. That way we think we will feel better about ourselves. It doesn't work because deep down we know better. Some of us double down at that point. It is delusional behavior.
The alternative is to take a good hard look at yourself and realize you are imperfect. That realization can be ego shattering, which is a good thing. Our egos, creating self centered fear, is the genesis of most bad behavior.
So, thank you for the topic.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Rob B
Apprentice
# 18910
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Posted
@mr cheesy: Stetson seems to be managing it. 'Seems like you've cast the first stone! If this is in the wrong room then my apologies, I am new. Please admin move this if you feel it's necessary.
@Stetson: Thank you so much for your reply. I think in a place like Youtube, it's welcome stuff when most of it is made up of videos that are quite simplistically bashing religion.
Interesting thoughts about the whether there are levels of immoral acts. Did Jesus say something about sins being all equal or something?
Yes, I'm not sure about ther start, not sure they have used 'faith' in quite the right usage.
Thanks,
Rob
[ 16. February 2018, 16:59: Message edited by: Rob B ]
Posts: 20 | From: Clevedon, England. | Registered: Feb 2018
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Rob B
Apprentice
# 18910
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Posted
@Tortuf: Thanks for your reply. Yes I agree. I think this lesson is really important in the current climate, with internet bubbles on facebook etc to the polarised politics of today, people see each other as other, just as the people with the stones did.
Posts: 20 | From: Clevedon, England. | Registered: Feb 2018
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
Any thoughts on this School of Life video?
web page
Or any general thoughts about the School of Life?
first, thank you, mr cheesy , for info re timing.
Fortunately, I do not have any thoughts about starting my own business on line, and even if I did, I would treat the promotional video with a very large dose of scepticism. I would like to have heard him speak with more of his 't' sounds enunciated and fewer of the 'you know' s, but that's being pedantic.
In the second part, the voice of the speaker was irritatingly over-precise and cloying; talking only to those already convinced of the benefit of the message of his little homily.
Would I watch it again, or recommend it? Well, no!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
first, thank you, mr cheesy , for info re timing.
Fortunately, I do not have any thoughts about starting my own business on line, and even if I did, I would treat the promotional video with a very large dose of scepticism. I would like to have heard him speak with more of his 't' sounds enunciated and fewer of the 'you know' s, but that's being pedantic.
In the second part, the voice of the speaker was irritatingly over-precise and cloying; talking only to those already convinced of the benefit of the message of his little homily.
Would I watch it again, or recommend it? Well, no!!
Um, Susan did the video you watch talk about Jesus as a philosopher. Only I'm wondering if you saw something else than the rest of us..
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arse
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Rob B
Apprentice
# 18910
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Posted
@Susan, I'm afraid I think you watched the advert before the video I am talking about! There is a 'Skip' button bottom right of the video.
Posts: 20 | From: Clevedon, England. | Registered: Feb 2018
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
... I've sometimes wondered if Jesus was "cheating" a little by choosing a more-or-less victimless, with a particularly harsh punishment, to make his point. ...
Hardly victimless. True we don't know the back story. Even so, one has to assume a husband had been cheated. Whichever way it all turned out, some children were likely to lose one of their parents and the stable home they might otherwise have grown up in.
Unless one is morally very blasé and far too modern in one's assumptions, adultery has victims and hurts them a lot.
[ 16. February 2018, 22:03: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
Interesting thoughts about the whether there are levels of immoral acts. Did Jesus say something about sins being all equal or something?
Rob
Actually, no. It's one of those things that everyone seems to think is in the Bible, but it's not. In fact, Jesus often seems to differentiate between different types of sinners-- he just draws the lines differently than everyone expected him to
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Jesus would make a good bodhisattva. If he could just transcend that God obsession.
The idea of studying Jesus in a philosophy context is not new and yes, much of what he says has much appeal outside of the religious content.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
In the second part, the voice of the speaker was irritatingly over-precise and cloying;
Gods, his voice is too close to the ASMR vids that make me want to claw out my ears.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The story presented by the school of life is incomplete.
When the religious leaders challenged Jesus about the Woman, the story goes that Jesus said nothing and began to write in the dust. Then he looks up and says, "Let HIM who is without sin cast the first stone."
What did Jesus write? Most likely he wrote the rest of the verse that the Pharisees had quoted. "... and the man with her also be stoned."
I am of the opinion that all the men who were accusing the woman of adultery had probably slept with her and maybe she was beginning to raise her rates, or they realized she had dirt on everyone in that crowd. They had to get rid of her.
The story goes on. Once the men accusing the woman dropped their stones and faded away, Jesus looked up and asked: "Where are those who were accusing you."
She replies "No one remains."
To which Jesus answers, "Neither do I, go and sin no more."
We must remember in Jesus' day if a woman were widowed, there was not much recourse for the woman. If she did not have enough to live on, and if her husband had no other brothers who would marry her, she would likely had become a prostitute
Yes, Jesus did significantly change moral thinking, but there is even more to him than the School of Life is willing to admit
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
mr cheesy and Rob B
Yes, I did watch the video talking of Jesus as a philosopher, but thought it was rather bland and as I was saying, the voice put me off. As far as I could make out, the graphics were perhaps trying to be trendy - whether they succeeded or not, I don't know.
(Rob B - I can't jump forward on things like that because I use assistive software.)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
mr cheesy and Rob B
Yes, I did watch the video talking of Jesus as a philosopher, but thought it was rather bland and as I was saying, the voice put me off. As far as I could make out, the graphics were perhaps trying to be trendy - whether they succeeded or not, I don't know.
(Rob B - I can't jump forward on things like that because I use assistive software.)
Fair enough. I think the part about "starting your own business online" might have been an unrelated advert.
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arse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I thought the conclusion was quite interesting.
I have heard far too many sermons where the purpose of keeping our sins before our eyes is either so that we can be brought to repentance and say the Sinner's Prayer, or else so that we can be reminded of our dependence on the grace of God - in other words, it is an act for our private spiritual benefit. The video is arguing that it also has a social benefit, which is something that the church IME tends to downplay.
That said - I've said this before, but I don't believe that the woman was in danger of being stoned, because according to the same Gospel the Jews did not have the right to carry out the death penalty: quote:
John 18:31
Pilate said to them, ‘Take him yourselves and judge him according to your law.’ The Jews replied, ‘We are not permitted to put anyone to death.’
So the point of the trap is that if Jesus invites them to stone her, he is fomenting rebellion against Roman law, and if he tells them not to, he is disrespecting the law of Moses.
The idea that the Pharisees were bloodthirsty Shylocks is, I think, rather anti-Semitic, albeit inadvertently so, and the grotesque images of the Pharisees in the video rather reinforce that impression I'm afraid.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
We must remember in Jesus' day if a woman were widowed, there was not much recourse for the woman. If she did not have enough to live on, and if her husband had no other brothers who would marry her, she would likely had become a prostitute
Evidence? The Torah has lots of verses commanding provisions for widows. Here is a good summary.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{Tangent: A relevant but humorous diversion.}
The woman accused of adultery was brought before Jesus, with a chorus of taunts and curses from the local men and religious authorities.
Jesus had had it with those jerks. With a face full of storm, he said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
The men blushed, and backed away. The crowd parted as a little old lady came forward, carrying a heavy stone. With all her strength, she heaved it at the accused woman.
Jesus whispered, "Oh, Mom, you've got to stop doing that!"
(Old joke.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
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--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
The 'preachy' presentation style is rather off-putting.
I agree that Jesus encourages any temptation to judgement to be directed inward rather than outward but cannot accept that he would say that "only absolute moral purity grants the right to be vicious, high handed and unsparing towards transgressors." Nothing grants that right.
If I used a video like this in a discussion group, it would probably start a discussion that could be made productive but I think the general reaction would be more negative than positive.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
... I've sometimes wondered if Jesus was "cheating" a little by choosing a more-or-less victimless, with a particularly harsh punishment, to make his point. ...
Hardly victimless. True we don't know the back story. Even so, one has to assume a husband had been cheated. Whichever way it all turned out, some children were likely to lose one of their parents and the stable home they might otherwise have grown up in.
Unless one is morally very blasé and far too modern in one's assumptions, adultery has victims and hurts them a lot.
Well, I was going to say "relatively victimless", but I think "vitimless" is kind of an either/or thing. Let's just say "relatively benign" then.
And if you think that's shortchanging the harms caused by adultery, well, let me ask you to conisder what your reaction would be if someone told you that the guy down the road was harming his family by having an affair with his secretary. Now compare that to your reaction if I told you that he was harming his family by bashing his infant daughter's head in with a hammer.
My point is that if the person in the story had been guilty of the second crime, most people would have a lot more difficulty with accepting the "He who is without sin..." restriction on punishment.
Granted, I suppose being more horrified by child-murder than by consensual adultery might make me some sort of blase modern decadent.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I agree - which is why I think the point is that the Pharisees would have been taking the law into their own hands.
If the Pharisees had had the legal right to stone the woman, and Jesus said they can't because they themselves aren't sinless (as opposed to because it would be disproportionate), then, as you say, there would be no circumstance in which any worldly judge could hand down a sentence for any crime whatsoever.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
My point is that if the person in the story had been guilty of the second crime, most people would have a lot more difficulty with accepting the "He who is without sin..." restriction on punishment.
This is one of those fascinating stories where one wonders if John tantalized his readers/hearers with unexplained details, or if he was relying on common knowledge to provide color and context, common knowledge we don’t always possess.
One thing I have heard—I can’t back-up the accuracy—is that the rule in practice at the time was that the stoning had to be begun by the witnesses to the offense. Others could only join in afterward. The idea was that if it was learned that the witnesses lied, they would then be guilty not only of a false oath, but of murder.
If that’s accurate, then Jesus’s “let the one among you without sin cast the first stone” takes on additional weight. He’d not just be reminding them all of their own sinfulness. He’d be calling them out on no one be willing to say they were witnesses, and he’d be reminding them that anyone who started the stoning was putting his own life on the line. He’d be calling them out for trying to set him up. He wasn’t just saying “the one without sin” generally. He was saying “the one without blane in this scheme to set me up.”
Like I said, can’t say whether the basis for this view is accurate. But there are some interesting interpretations of this passage that draw on when they happened and other provisions of the Law that might have come into play.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Ethnographically there is an interesting absence. The OT law says both the woman and the man she committed adultery with must be stoned.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Yes, Ricardus, the Torah is very specific about supporting the widow, but did it actually happen?
In Genesis 38 there is the story of Tamar who became a widow and ended up becoming a prostitute. Judah eventually rescued her. (I would argue this story is a common occurrence during biblical times)
There are many references to widows being taken advantage of in the prophetic books.
Jesus criticizes the scribes and Pharisees for wanting to have places of honor at feasts while devouring widow's homes. (Mark 12:40) If a widow became destitute what else could she do?
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In Genesis 38 there is the story of Tamar who became a widow and ended up becoming a prostitute. Judah eventually rescued her. (I would argue this story is a common occurrence during biblical times)
I apologize for the length of the following. I can't explain it briefly.
The story of Judah and Tamar is much more complicated. Judah had son who married Tamar. After Tamar's husband died without leaving children, his next younger brother was supposed to impregnate Tamar; the child would be considered the offspring and heir of the dead husband. The next brother was Onan; he did not want to father a child who would not be considered his own. He spilled his semen on the ground to avoid impregnating Tamar. God killed him for this sin. There was one more son, who was not old enough to marry. Judah, the father, was afraid to have his son marry Tamar, told her he would get in touch with her when his son was old enough.
Tamar eventually realized that Judah had no intention of letting his last remaining son impregnate her. When she heard that he would be at the temple on a certain day, she disguised herself as a temple prostitute; Judah saw her and decided to have sex with her. She became pregnant. When Judah learned this, he accused her of fornication. She explained what she had done, and Judah acknowledged that she was in the right.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
quote:
What did Jesus write? Most likely he wrote the rest of the verse that the Pharisees had quoted. "... and the man with her also be stoned."
I also think this very likely, given the fact that it could not have taken very long to write it. I have also heard it put forward that He started writing the names of the sinners in the crowd, but that would require more time and space on the ground, so your suggestion seems the more likely. Especially since no mention of the male adulterer is mentioned, just her alone under condemnation. Interesting that they should all have been so convinced of her adultery too. Perhaps they all knew her in the Biblical way. That would make the full text very effective in the situation.
"If a man is caught lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman as well as the woman. So you shall purge the evil from Israel". Deut.22:22.
quote:
So the point of the trap is that if Jesus invites them to stone her, he is fomenting rebellion against Roman law, and if he tells them not to, he is disrespecting the law of Moses.
Very good point, and not the only occasion on which this kind of legal trap is reported to have been laid for Jesus by The Pharisees. Matt.19:3, 22:15, Mk.12:13-17.
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
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