Ship of Fools: What is Heaven like?

Thread: What is Heaven like? Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Do you have a personal vision or expectation about Heaven?

Some people have come up with descriptions of Heaven which sound exquisitely boring, and others sound much more attractive. I can recall a couple of good ones from television shows:

In the "Buffy" series, Buffy dies at some point and is later revived by her good friends (who were sure, in view of her career, that she was languishing in Hell). She was by no means happy about being alive again, and she told us why:

"Wherever I was, I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time didn't mean anything, nothing had form, but I was still me, you know? And I was warm and I was loved and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or any of it really. But I think I was in heaven."

In the "WKRP" series, there was an episode in which a DJ, Johnny Fever, talked to an old (dying) lady in a hospital. He described his notion of heaven, an endless jam session of all the greatest musicians of history.

There is, of course, no reason why Heaven should be the same for everyone.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Heaven is something like a literary convention. There is a vast room with all the books you have never been able to find, interlarded with all the old favorites. There are sofas and lounge areas to sit in and read these books. And there are events, with the authors, so that you can listen to them discuss their works and the works of others. C.S. Lewis will pontificate upon Green theater while Aeschylus yells back at him and Sophocles pounds the table. The worldbuilding panel will have Tolkien and Ursula Le Guin on it.

And, as on this mortal plane, these nourishing events are meant to feed you, so that you can go out and do stuff. Make stuff.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

An endless walk in paradise.

With everyone.

Where a trillion sparrows murmurate.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT, and a few allusions in the New Testament. Myself, I look to the end of Revelations when the writer says, in the end, there will be a new heaven and a new earth with a new Jerusalem and the throne of God in the center. More than that, I would have to say I don't know what paradise will be like.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

There are two glimpses of heaven I hold onto, one of a garden with extraordinarily beautiful plants, the other of fantastic song lyrics. I've seen and heard each in visions. These are aspects of life I appreciate, and so if given glimpses of heaven, these are naturally aspects I would be given, or would imagine.

All I hope for in heaven is a continuation of the knowledge of the love of God I experience here and now. Anything else is a bonus.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

Bits of my faith I really 'feel', and can defend quite strongly. Other bits, including heaven, I accept on trust but don't really have an emotional connection with. Jesus said 'today you will be with me in paradise' - so OK, I guess I accept it because I trust Him. But -

Sometimes I find it motivating to think that when we die, we're dead - and that 'eternal life' is that life which comes about when people *do* God's will in the here and now. In that case it's eternal only because someone's kids' kids' kid will be taking over from us at some point in the future, and their kids will take it over in turn from them.

If that were the case, why would I waste my few years here doing anything other than participating in eternal life?

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Me too.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT . . . .

That depends, I guess, on what is meant by "heaven." The prophets certainly speak of the messianic age when swords will be beaten into plowshares, death will be swallowed up, the dead will be raised, and no one will hurt or destroy in all of God's holy mountain. The images of the new heaven and the new earth in Revelation—which like you I find to be as much of a glimpse as we are given of what Jews call olam haba, the World to Come—echo the descriptions in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Daniel. That may not fit the popular image of heaven, but it certainly seems consistent with the Scriptural view of heaven

The one other "clear" image I can think of that we are given of heaven in Scripture is that of a joyous feast.

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

I don’t get excited by any steady state images of heaven: gardens, feasts, being with the dead, unending bliss. The best things for me are changes: a new understanding, the poor invited to top table, a revolutionary work of art (I saw a Botticelli and a Caravaggio this week), remembering to look for the dead amongst the living, letting go of a false fear. It’s there in Christ’s words to the man on the next cross, but not in any ideas of later that afternoon.

I also saw thousands of formulaic paintings this week, including a dome above me painted with false perspective to look like a view up into heaven, pink and gold clouds, draperies around lovely figures; meh.

Analysis may squash it, but it has to do with surprise, resistance, breakthrough, and a new place, and my and others’ response.

Posted by RdrEmCofE (# 17511) on :

[quote]There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT, and a few allusions in the New Testament. Myself, I look to the end of Revelations when the writer says, in the end, there will be a new heaven and a new earth with a new Jerusalem and the throne of God in the center. More than that, I would have to say I don't know what paradise will be like.[quote]

Yep, you nailed it. In short, no one knows until they get there and the only one who has been there and briefly returned, did not extensively describe it to us, except to say it is a very spacious habitation. (lots of rooms).

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

There will be a Sapphire blue floor - as in ultramarine or lapis lazuli. Ref: Exodus 24:10

I also think there will be endless trailing jasmine (with bush jasmine in the outer suburbs)

Atmospherically - I am a member of the All Peace, Love and Light Faction; and would add that noone will criticise me or argue with me

Birdlife: flitting fantail/piwakawaka, rifleman/titipounamu and hihi/stitchbird with an occasional kea and seagull for amusement

There will be an infinite ARRAY of church-going options, combinations and permutations so I can go to whatever suits me on any particular day. Or not. (For the latter there will be wild coasts and peaceful lakes for the sitting-by).

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Heaven is a story we tell ourselves and most of us do this, it’s comforting. Many dog owners have a ‘Rainbow Bridge’ story they tell each other and themselves, also for comfort.

We cannot imagine a world without ‘me’ in it so we need the comfort of an afterlife.

Does one exist? I’ve no idea, but I’d like to think one does. I love to imagine my Mum and Dad reunited in heaven and waiting for me.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

I do not have a vision of heaven or the afterlife. I don't even think about it very much.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Heaven? Might be quite interesting for a short time, but when you have sought out and conversed with a few from whom you'd like some answers, what else would there be to do for the rest of eternity? And if it were to be found to be located in our solar system, what wil happen to it when the sun burns up the whole thing in 5 or so billion years time?!! I'm going to be unaware of all the advances which will be made during the next 80 years, but that is reality and, frustrating though it may be, that's the way things are. I am lucky to have had - am still having - a place and a life here.

As Boogie says, the prospect of heaven may provide a comfort to many, but that is most likely because they have been brought up with the idea and lived in cultures which promote it.

Posted by RdrEmCofE (# 17511) on :

quote:
There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT,

Actually, indirectly, there is mention of it in the OT.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord." Job. 1:6-12

The text implies that the location is not on or in the earth so presumably it must be heaven since God, (The Lord), is presiding over the proceedings.

It does not get us any nearer a definition of what this unearthly place may be actually like though, I grant you.

Interestingly though there is definitely no mention of Hell in the OT though.

Posted by AdamPater (# 4431) on :

I don't understand "heaven" except as "with God, sometimes especially when we're not 'physically alive here'."

The "pure heaven" bit is only a passing state or holding pattern until the general resurrection and "new heavens and new earth" in "the world to come".

Or so I pray. I'm sure I'd suck at harps.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Heaven? Might be quite interesting for a short time, but when you have sought out and conversed with a few from whom you'd like some answers, what else would there be to do for the rest of eternity?

Play computer games and chat on forums?

Posted by John3000 (# 18786) on :

I hear lots of people talking about the dearly departed like "I miss them so dearly, one day we'll all be together again" but I've always thought this is very one-sided and selfish.

You may want to spend eternity gossiping to Auntie Doreen, but whilst she used to tolerate you blathering away over a weekly cup of tea she has no desire to repeat the experience, especially not forever.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

I wonder how many people believe in a heaven not only because it is a comfort, but also because it is too scary not to? Or deep down, when they are totally honest with themselves, do they acknowledge that they accept there isn't one, while keeping that acknowledgement entirely to themselves?

Is there a necessity to pass on this idea of a comfort/heaven to future generations? If they grow up not believing that such a *place* exists and is therefore inaccessible - while at the same time remainin involved in other aspects of belief and worship - will this blight their lives? My personal answer to that is, obviously, that it will not.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I wonder how many people believe in a heaven not only because it is a comfort, but also because it is too scary not to? Or deep down, when they are totally honest with themselves, do they acknowledge that they accept there isn't one, while keeping that acknowledgement entirely to themselves?

Is there a necessity to pass on this idea of a comfort/heaven to future generations? If they grow up not believing that such a *place* exists and is therefore inaccessible - while at the same time remainin involved in other aspects of belief and worship - will this blight their lives? My personal answer to that is, obviously, that it will not.

I see completely non-religious people doing it all the time, they pass on or make up their own stories, it must be a comfort to them.

Here is another view closer to your’s SusanDoris?

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Thank you, Boogie, I definitely agree with the sentiments expressed, especially when he mentions the words which sound so cloying.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

I find it fairly interesting that there is so little consensus amongst its believers on the nature of Heaven, and even from those who are willing to share their speculations about what it might be like. It seems likely to me that the reason for this is that we all individually wish for quite different things, and afterlife is so clearly a product of the most profoundly desperate wishful thinking in the face of terrifying nothingness.

Heaven is an idea born of our desire to remain alive. What could be more natural and human? Only gods themselves, perhaps.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
a product of the most profoundly desperate wishful thinking in the face of terrifying nothingness.

I don't have a clear view of heaven, or even much expectation of it - but I don't fear death. I can see how the ego will put up a fair fuss at being finally extinguished. Maybe a good reason to take a good pop at it now.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

There are no guns.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
There are no guns.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

Hollywood has presented us with a surprisingly consistent picture of what heaven is like.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

Personally, I like the one suggested by the ending of Titanic.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I find it fairly interesting that there is so little consensus amongst its believers on the nature of Heaven, and even from those who are willing to share their speculations about what it might be like. It seems likely to me that the reason for this is that we all individually wish for quite different things, and afterlife is so clearly a product of the most profoundly desperate wishful thinking in the face of terrifying nothingness.

Heaven is an idea born of our desire to remain alive. What could be more natural and human? Only gods themselves, perhaps.

I've always thought that Franz Liszt and Archbishop William Temple, in their different ways, were bang on the money. We can't talk very intelligibly about heaven because it is beyond our understanding and it would be really rather worrying if this were not the case.

Otherwise, His will is our peace, here comes one who will augment our love, and the love that moves the sun and other stars.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

What was Jesus's line when asked about the woman who was married to seven brothers in order, and each one died, and then she died, which will she be married to in heaven? Something about "In heaven there is no marrying or giving in marriage", right? Personally think that indicates that heaven will be totally unlike our experiences now, something we can't even anticipate adequeatly.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
There are no guns.

Kinda left wing pinko faggotry is THAT?!

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:

quote:
There is very little mention of heaven in the Bible, none in the OT,
Actually, indirectly, there is mention of it in the OT.

The text implies that the location is not on or in the earth so presumably it must be heaven since God, (The Lord), is presiding over the proceedings.

Well, heaven by definition seems to be the place where God dwells (at least in the Bible).

OTOH the historical Christian hope has never been in 'getting to heaven' as such, but the resurrection of the body on a new earth, to which heaven comes down (presumably as a side effect of God dwelling with man).

Posted by not entirely me (# 17637) on :

I’m not convinced it’s corporeal (right word?) if it even exists. I think that so much weight has been placed on heaven & hell historically to justify conformity & provide hope that’s it’s hard to break free from those concepts.
It seems more poignant to focus on what we have some knowledge of & where we are now.

Although I admit I have a naïveté on such matters as when questioning Christianity the “framework” of non-believers going to hell was one the hardest ideas to let go of even if I applied it primarily to myself in adolescent self-absorption at the time.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
What was Jesus's line when asked about the woman who was married to seven brothers in order, and each one died, and then she died, which will she be married to in heaven? Something about "In heaven there is no marrying or giving in marriage", right? Personally think that indicates that heaven will be totally unlike our experiences now, something we can't even anticipate adequeatly.

I rather like CS Lewis' notion that heaven won't be anything like we imagine, but that when we see it will just "seem right"-- as in, "oh, of course it would be like this!" And that it will be "more real" than this life, like a play vs real life.

But in the Bible I see more emphasis on "the coming Kingdom" and "the new heaven and earth"-- so I think of it mostly not as something up/over "there" but life here on earth the way it was always meant to be

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I'm surprised this has not been mentioned:

Heaven is where Jesus is.

quote:
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, We shall be like him see him, for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3 v 2

The old chorus says:

And I shall see him face to face
and tell the story,saved by grace.

I do not believe that heaven will be 'this world but cleaner', and I believe that everyone who believes in 'the afterlife' and paints all manner of pictures to describe its joys and relationships, is simply doing so because of the reality of the real place. They are imagining what their heart tells them is true. The reality however is far greater and more real than our minds can dream of - but Jesus is the centre.

One of my favourite quotes, from CS Lewis:

quote:
If I find in myself desires which nothing in this world can satisfy, the only logical explanation is that I was made for another world.

[ 19. February 2018, 06:14: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Whoops,out of time to correct the typo in the Bible verse I quoted.
I need new glasses.

Posted by Zogwarg (# 13040) on :

The least terrifying version of heaven I can envision is one where time doesn't really make sense.

It's the pure presence of God, eternity as infinite time is way too scary. Eternity in boundless time, as in both yesterday, today and tomorrow, is much less inhuman.

Much like time not making physical sense "before" the occurrence of the big bang, I envision heaven maybe as being timeless.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zogwarg:
The least terrifying version of heaven I can envision is one where time doesn't really make sense.

It's the pure presence of God, eternity as infinite time is way too scary. Eternity in boundless time, as in both yesterday, today and tomorrow, is much less inhuman.

Much like time not making physical sense "before" the occurrence of the big bang, I envision heaven maybe as being timeless.

Do you imagine you would be able to think there? converse with others?

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I don't like the idea of timelessness. I don't actually think it's a Biblical concept. If something is going to exist in a state of timelessness then logically it's a state of being frozen, unconscious, static.

The Biblical belief is not mere immortality, but resurrection. However you define resurrection, surely it is no less than being the best 'me' there can be - whole, perfect, complete, 'ransomed, healed, restored, forgiven' but still'me'.
Recognisable, alive, mobile, in relationship and 'employment'.

Posted by Zogwarg (# 13040) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Do you imagine you would be able to think there? converse with others?

Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is how heaven is, only that it's the least terrifying version I can imagine.

In this hypothetical heaven, I picture some kind of complete conversation, it's all conversations happening at once. So it's not a conversation in the conventional sense of the word since there is no longer a sequence of events or ideas but a perfect juxtaposition of events and ideas.

It's like a painting vs a novel. But the painting can still tell a story, at has coherence.

Posted by Zogwarg (# 13040) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't like the idea of timelessness. I don't actually think it's a Biblical concept. If something is going to exist in a state of timelessness then logically it's a state of being frozen, unconscious, static.

The Biblical belief is not mere immortality, but resurrection. However you define resurrection, surely it is no less than being the best 'me' there can be - whole, perfect, complete, 'ransomed, healed, restored, forgiven' but still'me'.
Recognisable, alive, mobile, in relationship and 'employment'.

I'm on the fence myself about timelessness. (in both truth and desirability) I think the idea is probably too clever to be true, but I still find it a lot less scary than the alternative.

Fascinating idea to explore though.

I don't think that timeless necessarily means dead or frozen. See the analogy about paintings, they can still tell a compelling story. If anyone wants a read I definitely recommend "Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art" By Scott Mc Cloud, which is an in-depth analysis of comic books as a medium, and explores among other things how comic books can explore non-sequentiality.

[edit] I do think that a possible interpretation of "I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty." Is a sense of timelessness from god

[ 19. February 2018, 12:50: Message edited by: Zogwarg ]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't like the idea of timelessness. I don't actually think it's a Biblical concept. If something is going to exist in a state of timelessness then logically it's a state of being frozen, unconscious, static.

The Biblical belief is not mere immortality, but resurrection. However you define resurrection, surely it is no less than being the best 'me' there can be - whole, perfect, complete, 'ransomed, healed, restored, forgiven' but still'me'.
Recognisable, alive, umobile, in relationship and 'employment'.

This

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I don't want to be a painting, whatever story it 'tells'. The painting is lifeless; it has no consciousness, no self, no awareness. It's life is only in the consciousness of the one looking at it - beauty is, literally, in the eye of the beholder.

As far as I am concerned I want to be me, consciously alive and able to relate.

I will be there,body, soul and spirit, and the resurrection body and life of Jesus will be the pattern.

Which means I get to eat in heaven as well - though I dope there's chocolate in heaven and not just a bit of broiled fish and some bread.

Posted by Zogwarg (# 13040) on :

Well indeed a painting is lifeless, it is just a juxtaposition of paint, ultimately.

Qualitatively that is very different from a juxtaposition of thought/soul/emotion. Again to timeless doesn't have to mean dead, or even unrelatable.

Now the resurrected body of Christ is a big wrench in this vision of heaven. I guess that hypocritically it could be reconciled by appealing to a platonic ideal of reality. The perfect idea of a body, being more real than the physical stuff.

(But it doesn't really square with scripture)

And yes I guess I would miss chocolate too.

(Though timeful eternity is absolutely terrifying to me, I can still remember 5 years old me being kept up at night by the thought for weeks of pure dread)

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

Doris Lessing in one of her SF books I think imagines a collection of ghosts circling the planet, intensely interested and unable to break away into the void or the great beyond or whatever. This is my memory of what Doris wrote, and it is probably incredibly distorted. One day I will find the exact edition I want of the old Canopus in Argos series, and then I shall re-read the lot. I think she's an under-appreciated novelist of superb skill. I recommend Mara and Dann for a vision of a devolved humanity.

The image has stayed with me for a long time. I'm pretty sure I don't really understand it, that she's saying something more than I perceive. God, I love that feeling. That's probably why I like Martin's stuff when he is on fire.

Visions of heaven and hell for that matter are truly fantastic imaginative fantasies. They say more about we who construct them than the object of our dreaming. I think they are worth careful study by someone else.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Zogwarg

I like your idea of the picture. However, if by some chance I find myself in this or any heaven when I die, I'll be looking for the exit!

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

The other very modern concept is computers. We are programs, running on machines with many unsatisfactory features. Knees, sacroiliac, appendixes, there are many weak points which accumulate in our current processors. The software too is buggy, prone to stupidities, obsessions, and other problems.
So: we die, and the machine goes to the cemetery. The soul, all that is really you, gets downloaded as you die onto the Heavenly servers. Angelic software engineers go through and get all the bugs out over at their Purgatory computer facilities. When you are all tidied up and fixed you are downloaded into a better machine. We haven't the processing capability to imagine the powers of our better existence; we can only postulate from our current flawed perspective.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I like your idea of the picture. However, if by some chance I find myself in this or any heaven when I die, I'll be looking for the exit!

Why? Wouldn't that be the proof you've been saying all along that you would accept if only it existed? So now it turns out that you would NOT accept proof if it exists. You are not just a non-believer, but an anti-believer, and all your gas about "evidence" is just subterfuge.

[ 19. February 2018, 14:29: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zogwarg:
Well indeed a painting is lifeless, it is just a juxtaposition of paint, ultimately.

Qualitatively that is very different from a juxtaposition of thought/soul/emotion. Again to timeless doesn't have to mean dead, or even unrelatable.

Now the resurrected body of Christ is a big wrench in this vision of heaven. I guess that hypocritically it could be reconciled by appealing to a platonic ideal of reality. The perfect idea of a body, being more real than the physical stuff.

(But it doesn't really square with scripture)

I appreciate the fact you're acknowledging it.

This is why I think Mudfrog is quite correct-- just as the best picture of God we have is Jesus, the best picture we have of the afterlife is the resurrected Jesus. And the resurrected Jesus was decidedly NOT a timeless "immortal soul"-- he existed in space & time. His resurrected body was both similar and different from our mortal bodies-- it was recognizable, was able to move and act and hold things, was able to be touched. And yet it was apparently able to appear and disappear, to move in some way without our usual physical restrictions. And of course, we believe it was and is eternal.

I think this points to something much closer to the Jewish idea of the resurrection of the dead and not at all to the Greek idea of the immortal soul.

[ 19. February 2018, 14:54: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other very modern concept is computers. We are programs, running on machines with many unsatisfactory features. Knees, sacroiliac, appendixes, there are many weak points which accumulate in our current processors. The software too is buggy, prone to stupidities, obsessions, and other problems.
So: we die, and the machine goes to the cemetery. The soul, all that is really you, gets downloaded as you die onto the Heavenly servers. Angelic software engineers go through and get all the bugs out over at their Purgatory computer facilities. When you are all tidied up and fixed you are downloaded into a better machine. We haven't the processing capability to imagine the powers of our better existence; we can only postulate from our current flawed perspective.

I like the idea of being restored to factory settings, but then being upgraded.

However, going back to the human analogy, do you not think the=at the body is included in what is 'really you'?

We are not disembodied spirits. We are whole beings and I cannot conceive of any existence that does not include a body - as different as it is going to be!
I shall certainly be body, soul and spirit in Heaven - I shall be like Jesus.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Oh, and if Jesus is not the reason for being 'in' Heaven, if Jesus is not there, then it won't be Heaven and I won't want to be there. In fact, I won't be there.

If anyone wants Heaven but doesn't want Jesus, then they won't be there either.

...In fact, if you don't want Jesus in Heaven, why on earth would you want to be there in the first place?
If the afterlife, when you get there, doesn't include Jesus, then I'm afraid you're in Hell.

[ 19. February 2018, 15:26: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I like your idea of the picture. However, if by some chance I find myself in this or any heaven when I die, I'll be looking for the exit!
Why? Wouldn't that be the proof you've been saying all along that you would accept if only it existed? So now it turns out that you would NOT accept proof if it exists. You are not just a non-believer, but an anti-believer, and all your gas about "evidence" is just subterfuge.

Am I not allowed a little levity occasionally?! I did consider adding a [Smile]

but thought my words would be clear enough without it.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Am I not allowed a little levity occasionally?! I did consider adding a but thought my words would be clear enough without it.

We're all wrong from time to time.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I keep thinking of being admitted to heaven, televangelist like Franklin Graham, Jimmy Swaggert and Jerry Falwell live on the same street as me. The Borgia popes live down the block. Stuff like that. An angel choir singing country gospel. Makes me consider that it'll be a bit trying to exist in eternity there. Can I have a mountain to ski on, an ocean to sail?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

I think you're confusing heaven with that other place

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :

I don't believe in the resurrection of the body, despite what I chant on Sunday mornings. (Just one of my heresies.) It strikes me, with my limited human reason, as superfluous. Neat trick, but unnecessary. Heavily influenced as I am by Hegel, I believe Heaven to be a state of all contradictions resolved. That's not as bloodless as it sounds, for the resolution is one aspect of Divine Love.

More fancifully, in Heaven I'm having a glass of wine with my mother in Kirstenbosch. Untenable, I think, but it is a comforting thought.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

More fancifully, in Heaven I'm having a glass of wine with my mother in Kirstenbosch. Untenable, I think, but it is a comforting thought.

I don't BELIEVE a word I wrote up-thread ...I just like to muse on things ... without them having to be true or even possible

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
More fancifully, in Heaven I'm having a glass of wine with my mother in Kirstenbosch. Untenable, I think, but it is a comforting thought.

Not fanciful or untenable at all, in my view. That is exactly what it is.

I love this series of YouTube videos that explain what heaven is like.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Explain? How?

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I think you're confusing heaven with that other place

Well, that's a relief. Don't tell them! They don't seem to know.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:

quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

More fancifully, in Heaven I'm having a glass of wine with my mother in Kirstenbosch. Untenable, I think, but it is a comforting thought.
I don't BELIEVE a word I wrote up-thread ...I just like to muse on things ... without them having to be true or even possible

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Explain? How?

By accepting the evidence that people occasionally have been allowed to see into that world.

From Old Testament prophets to people with Near Death Experiences there is a fairly consistent body of testimony about what we can expect to happen to us after we die.

It may all be mistaken, fraudulent, wishful thinking and therefore completely wrong. But it may not be.

It may also be completely irrelevant to our lives in this world - even to the point where speculating about it actually detracts from our ability to do God's will. But it may not be.

Considering that the vast majority of people worldwide have some kind of afterlife expectations, it seems foolish to completely dismiss the idea.

In any case, the video I just posted attempts to arrive at explanations based on that kind of evidence. It may be wrong. It may be a waste of time. It may even be harmful. On the other hand it might be genuinely helpful. [Angel]

Posted by DonLogan2 (# 15608) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...Which means I get to eat in heaven as well - though I dope there's chocolate in heaven and not just a bit of broiled fish and some bread.

There better be fish in heaven, and more to the point fishing, lots of fishing!

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I gather it will be freshwater fishing because Revelation says there will be no more sea [Biased]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...Which means I get to eat in heaven as well - though I dope there's chocolate in heaven and not just a bit of broiled fish and some bread.
There better be fish in heaven, and more to the point fishing, lots of fishing!

Which means it’d be true after all that one person’s heaven is another person’s hell.

Posted by DonLogan2 (# 15608) on :

Yeah, dammit, can`t stand freshwater fishing!

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Reminded by the reference to Revelation about the disappearance of the sea: I recommend "The Last Chantey" by Kipling.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:
Yeah, dammit, can`t stand freshwater fishing!

To paraphrase Greg Boyd: perhaps that's because you've only seen the unredeemed freshwater fishing-- new kingdom freshwater fishing could be a completely different experience

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

It sounds like the Heaven for fishermen could easily be combined with a Hell for fish.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:
Yeah, dammit, can`t stand freshwater fishing!

Agreed, except I'd leave out "freshwater." [Biased]

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

I envisage Heaven as a state of being in which we are able to exchange feelings and experiences directly with one another. Hell could turn out to be much the same, of course - but there it would be compulsory.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

While my own idea of heaven involves lots of swimming in small lakes, long lunches, and cats which do not make me sneeze, I fear that this is very much my own projection.

Aficionadi of Albert Finney's work might recall the television series, The Green Man, where God appears to him in the guise of an elegantly-dressed young man (reasonably enough as the direct vision would destroy Finney's character Maurice Allington). As their discussion about the inn's evil spirits finishes, God asks Allington if he had any questions as He didn't appear often to individuals and this was his chance. Allington asks if there is an afterlife, and God answers that "there is, but that it's not what you think." Somehow that rang true (even if I would still like my version).

Posted by herrmann (# 4576) on :

"There is, of course, no reason why Heaven should be the same for everyone."

You obviously haven't been to my local Baptist church.

Posted by herrmann (# 4576) on :

There is, of course, no reason why Heaven should be the same for everyone.

You obviously haven't been to my local Baptist church.

[ 23. February 2018, 16:20: Message edited by: herrmann ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Many mansions. Four dimensional. As long as my apartment has a door on to an Earth with all its current flora. And I can have a syllabus of the arts and sciences and humanities, so doors to Cambridge and the Sorbonne. Learn a few languages. Cultures. You know 10,000 hours in each of a hundred subjects. For a start. Then a hundred thousand in a thousand. With no uncontrolled febrile impulses. And the same amount of time walking. And the same talking. For a start.

Our evolved brains are larval. Something neotenous is going to happen to them. In glory. No new mess. And the healing, redemption of all mess.

It'll be good. For everyone. Ever. For a start. With no death. No morbidity. Everything fixed. Understood. Worked out. Sublimed. Together.

The Long Earth. To Your Scattered Bodies Go. Wayside Picnic. The Green, Green Grass of Home. The Many Coloured Land. Field of Dreams. An Ascent.

As Dave Bowman says to the redeemed, doomed heroic Hal in 2010, something's going to happen, something wonderful.

[ 23. February 2018, 23:29: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

What a fantastic post. 👍

May your Heaven be thus so.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

See you there rolyn.

And everyone who will let me walk with them that we be healed together, in every relationship I've ever had, every transaction. Everyone I've got a regret for. The guy I cut up in my car 40 years ago.

I hope that it ISN'T like the sublimation in Ian M. Banks' The Hydrogen Sonata, where we are empowered so rapidly, augmented so much that we shrug off our previous existence as a pupa case and soar with no looking back. That our imagoes take a millennium or ten to mature. Minimal magic please!

But perhaps we will put away these childish things on pupation. The guy I cut up on the North Circular won't be waiting, needing my apology after all. Let alone the people I've REALLY failed.

But again, I can't see how the kinks will just be magicked out, no matter how limitless our butterfly potential. They'll have to be walked and talked and educated, loved out?

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

I think I'm just going to secrete myself in one of those graves overlooking the east gate of Jerusalem and wait it out.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Learn a few languages. Cultures.

Mox's Blog for translators has quite a few cartoons on the theme of "translator heaven", although unfortunately I can only find a link to one.

[ 24. February 2018, 12:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Hopefully it can't be too easy. It'll take work. Forever. Just better with timeless potential, timelessly actualized. Meeting up with the neighbours. From Proxima Centauri. After a millennium or two. No Babel fish. No telepathy or any of that nonsense. Work it out. Onward and upward. No going back. As nobody does obviously. It'll be so cool we won't worry about this level.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
See you there rolyn.

And everyone who will let me walk with them that we be healed together, in every relationship I've ever had, every transaction. Everyone I've got a regret for. The guy I cut up in my car 40 years ago.

I REALLY hope you meant to say "the guy I cut OFF in my car..." and not "cut up" in a car!
[Eek!]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Pond difference. Honest. This is England for heaven's sake. I mean really. I haven't dismembered anyone in my motor for weeks.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Although glimpses of Heaven are availble in this realm, (might have one now in the evening sun on the hill), Heaven does however sound like a wonderful place to pull the plug on a bathtub of *excrement.
Or do we leave all that here? Maybe it will disappear in a puff of smoke at the same time as Heaven appears.

* 'Dung' as St. Paul called it.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Pulling the plug on my head would leave it empty. I would disappear in a puff of smoke. I don't believe in magic in Heaven either. The laws of physics are glorified is all.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Just heard this on BBC Choral Evensong:

"No darkness nor dazzling, but one equal light,
no noise nor silence, but one equal music,
no fears nor hopes, but one equal possession,
no end nor beginning, but one equal eternity"

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Gorgeous, isn't it? Anglican moderation. John Donn, methinks

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