Thread: The game that batters: the rugby thread Board: The Circus / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Down south where we stand on our heads the international season is about to begin ... France against a re-hashed but fired up All Blacks. Okay ... let the meaning of life begin

[ 13. February 2013, 04:38: Message buggered about with by: Ariston ]
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Or not ... The French played like a team. So did the All Blacks, occasionally.
 

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Posted by davelarge (# 186) on :
 
Man, that's a turn-up for the books! I think the French should prepare for a backlash in the second test.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Ouch, but true. The All Blacks will need to play - er - Test Rugby tonight if they're going to win. Obviously. The born to rule attitude got kicked in the bum last week - and the French are keen to add another nail to the coffin of arrogance. I think a tougher game is shaping up, but one that the French could shock all by winning by 6-12 points.

Ironically in last week's game the ABs for once had their often abysmal line-out in order. Here's hoping they continue that - and remember a few other basics about, er, using some strength in the scrum (preferably in forward gear) and actually hanging on to opponents in a tackle.

And don't attempt running the ball out from your own goal line with flashy a la Francais back line movements. They look really silly when the French grab the ball in a tackle and go on to score a try.
 

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Posted by davelarge (# 186) on :
 
Speaking of painful losses, the Lions were shaping up for a thrashing but managed to claw back some respectability. If we can sort out our penalty count and win first-phase ball more reliably, I reckon we've a shot in the final two tests.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I didn't see the game but the penalty problem appears to be in the scrum and Phil Vickery did seem to concede more than his share. He does so for England too, so his place for the next test must be in doubt. I'm not sure about David Wallace either: he's better about the field but Martin Williams does the dirty work so much better and Ryan Jones or Andy Powell could keep the 'Boks back row busy (and run at and over their no 10).

That apart the Lions ought to be encouraged that they came back into the game. Oh, and we should have another lock with a bit of dog about him, like Nathan Hines or Donnacha O'Callaghan. Give Matfield a black eye, so he plays with double vision which will mess up his line-out!
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
The All Blacks won against Italy, but not as convincingly as the 27-6 scoreline suggests. They only had about 35% of the territory, and the possession split about 50/50. The scoreline should have been higher, and if they're to match against either the Boks or the Wallabies they're going to have to strengthen many aspects of their game, especially their back line penetration.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Somehow, against the run of recent form, and against all odds (I would have thought) the All Blacks held out the Wallabies for a come-from-behind 22-16 victory. McCaw was back of course (and scored a try). But they looked like a unit for the first time this season. Donald kicked well, after missing one difficult one (Giteau didn't). And, paradoxically, the one feature of their play that has been lookintg good this season was attrocious at first, their lineout letting them down and costing a try.

Not either an easy or a pretty game, but a good win.
 

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Posted by davelarge (# 186) on :
 
The IRB has this week given a one year ban to Tom Williams, a winger for Harlequins who faked a blood injury to allow a substitution in a Heineken Cup game in April.

Is a one year ban too much (the article reports that Quin's point out that this is longer than the bans for stamping, gouging and pushing match officials) or does compromising the integrity of the game warrant such a harsh penalty?

If the injury was faked by using a blood capsule, what does that say about the premeditation of the Quin's players and staff?
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
The IRB say that this will be a deterrent to cheating. What bollocks! Neil Back, Richard Hill, Richie McCaw, Martyn Williams and every other player worth his number 6 or 7 shirt would have been banned for life if cheating was effectively banned!

I think this harks back to the days when rugger was about gentlemen knocking seven shades of shit out of each other and drinking pints afterwards. I'm afraid the game has changed and if the IRB spokesmen took some of the knocks that are routine in professional rugby nowadays they wouldn't give 6 week bans for "a bit of shoeing" as we used to say.

FFS, Tom Williams has been given a longer ban than Justin Harrison, who has been given eight months for Class A drug use. Harrison I gather, intends to move into broadcasting and coaching, of all things.
 

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Posted by davelarge (# 186) on :
 
But Sioni, to play Devil's advocate, isn't cheating and bringing the integrity of the game into doubt even more serious than behaving in an inappropriately violent manner on the pitch?

To use another example, is taking performance enhancing drugs worse than gauging and so on? Bans for substance abuse are often several years in length, but nobody complains about them. Which offence is faking an injury closest to? It doesn't directly harm other players, as gauging and stamping do, but it does bring the game into disrepute and threatens the whole ethos of the game, as taking performance enhancing substances does.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I don't doubt that cheating is not serious, but I was giving a few more examples of cheating that, at their worst, are punished by a yellow card and a penalty (so it's usually three points).

Williams' offence (and does anyone here really think it is his alone??) was hardly worse than the fairly routine way sides with one prop on the subs bench take one off at half time then replace another starter with the one who was withdrawn, at about the hour mark. I remember a time when a doctor had to certify a player as unfit to continue before a substitute could come on. That rule didn't last long - how many doctors would tell a player that he was fit when the player said he wasn't? Should Rugby Union adopt the "interchange" rule from Rugby League? That alows up to 12 changes amongst the 13 starters and a four-player bench.

FWIW "faking an injury" is taking the piss out of the rules and regulations. The IRB are more concerned about this kind of regulation than with all the offsides, interfering with the ball, tackling off the ball and violent conduct you'll ever see.

And as for performance enhancing drugs, others do get injured. If someone can build themselves up by thirty pounds amd still move as fast, they will do a lot more damage to anyone they run into.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
So, the autumn internationals are on their way. England's missing half their first choice team, and Rob Andrew says they will be a fair reflection of England's progress under Johnson. Is that even vaguely true?
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I didn't get to see the game, so was England's loss today as bad as the report says it was?
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I didn't get to see the game, so was England's loss today as bad as the report says it was?

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The article you linked was spot on IMO.

On form we are currently on the bottom of the Tri-Nations. That is pretty right, sadly.

England are not up to All Black or Springbok standards currently. Neither are we. We are in the process of rebuilding with what we've got.

The game could've gone either way. It took us a large part of the first half to begin to gain confidence and get into our stride.

I think we just had more hunger to win and better backs who can score tries.

It was a fair game and I didn't see the professional fouls that were so much part of the All Blacks game in Tokyo. Psychologically I think that's what broke our confidence in ourselves there, but you have to mentally tough it out anywhere, in any circumstances.

England have a lot going for them and I think Martin Johnson needs to move beyond his current pedestrian game plan. It doesn't work.

The games at Croke Park and Millenium Stadium will show whether we are one day wonders or not.

If we lose at Murrayfield.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
England were controlled and deliberate but slow, which was OK in 2003 when they could strangle anyone but they can't do that at the moment.

The linked piece says "England had to play catch-up, but were not equipped to do so." which was all too true. There was no incisiveness behind the scrum.

Australia weren't a whole lot better but, unlike England, they could recycle ball quickly and in Will Genia and Matt Giteau they have a class act at half-back, which made all the difference.
 

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Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
Ireland or Australia?

The rugby correspondent for the Irish Times was on the radio here this afternoon and he pointed if Australia wins, it would be a case of the third best team in the southern hemisphere beating the best in Europe.
 

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Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :
 
Not that bothered about rugby, but I happened to be in Cardiff last week, when Wales played the All Blacks.
I was staggered at the crowds in red, lots of girls dressed to the nines, and the sheer good humour of the people.
Had it been a Football crwd in Manchester, I would have been very nervous, aware of the tension and potential for aggro- but this crowd were so happy and cheerful.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Congratuations, les Bleus!
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
The Weeder, I have never felt intimidated at a rugby match. Even when I'm an away fan, and the home team has lost due to poor refereeing! For me, that's one of the great things about rugby: The vast majority of fans take it seriously and have a great time, but at the end of the day everybody knows it's only a game.

Big question for me is whether England can avoid making fools of themselves today...
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
The Weeder, I have never felt intimidated at a rugby match. Even when I'm an away fan, and the home team has lost due to poor refereeing! For me, that's one of the great things about rugby: The vast majority of fans take it seriously and have a great time, but at the end of the day everybody knows it's only a game.

Big question for me is whether England can avoid making fools of themselves today...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
few if any players bear any rancour

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which is an interesting difference to Rugby league.

Looks like the All Blacks were unconvincing against Italy.
 

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Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
27 - 6 convinced me??

Big game later tonight (2 of my grandparents were GREEN) but the rest of me is all over the spectrum
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
A 20-20 draw courtesy of a last minute try to BOD.

A pretty accurate indicator of where the game's at in both countries, I'd say.

OK: no Mortlock; no Barnes but that's the way the dice fell. No discredit to the Irish.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
In BOD we trust
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
In BOD we trust

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I believe the Irish sometimes refer to him as G-D but that's a bit much.

Didn't quite part the waters.

But that's the luck of the Irish.
 

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Posted by Celtic Knotweed (# 13008) on :
 
YEEEESSSS!!!!!!

That has to be the most nerve-racking rugby match I've ever watched. Winning even after a try in the last minute. I still don't quite believe it.

Anyone would usually think a 9-8 scoreline meant a stinker. Not this time...
 

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Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :
 
'mon the boys !!!!
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
What CK and WK said!
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 


I think my heart rate has finally returned to normal!


 

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Posted by Beenster (# 242) on :
 
Really cracking result for the Scottish. No, I don't support Scotland nor Australia but I can't help feeling really impressed by the performance.
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Aagh!

Defeat out of the jaws of victory!


 

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Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
Sir Pellinore said

Aagh!

Defeat out of the jaws of victory!



Exactly
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Herrick:
Sir Pellinore said

Aagh!

Defeat out of the jaws of victory!



Exactly

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I'm tossing up whether to watch the match at Millenium Stadium.

Sadly, I think the word 'tossers' would be appropriate to the losers of the Hopetoun Cup.

All credit to the Jocks. No sour grapes there.

I think the ARU really needs to look at our Super 14/15 setup and the grassroots.

Robbie Deans did nothing wrong. It's a case of (vastly) overpaid nonachievers. Psychology. Courage under pressure.
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Well, we did win the match against a gallant and talented Welsh side which started without some of its best players and rapidly lost a couple of real tryscorers early during the game.

Digby Ioane's return was a godsend. Gitteau found form. Everyone gave their utmost.

Wales never gave up. I suspect, under Warren Gatland, they will be very effective in the Six Nations next year.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
I'm never too upset if the All Blacks lose to the Barbars - (well ... it only happens every few decades!). It was a great wake up call after a superb tour and a brilliant game against Les Bleues. Habana was magnificent, Steyn is utterly destructive, and it was a timely reminder who really are at the top of world rugby. Nice to see Matt Giteau looking at his dangerous best, too - and the work of Roberts around the field was mind blowing. Matfield was, most of the time, absolutely brilliant in leadership and play. I'm pleased too that Rokocoko had a win: he won't I think ever again play for the All Blacks as the turning and catching game has moved past him, but he can, if wise, depart on an eccentric high note.

The ABs are in lethal form - but take McCaw, Carter and two or three others out and the gel ceases to gel. On the other hand our new Zac Guildford is an exciting prospect. While my money would be on South Africa for the World Cup on present indications, the future of rugby is exciting.
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
Speaking of the All Blacks losing to the BaaBaas, I watched The Try from 1973 on YouBend, and was interested to note how many head-high tackles went in (including a blinder where the tacklee ducked out, and the tackler ended up on his arse!) in the space of one move.

I guess the high tackle law (rule?) is a more recent innovation - does anyone know when?

AG
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Now of course we could have whole conversations about whether Gareth Thomas' sexuality has any implications for his rugby!

In fact there was an infamous but excellent play in NZ in the early 1980s, Foreskins Lament, that raised questions of sexuality in rugby. I know at least one All Black of the 1950s and 60s who, although married, had a lurid private life which did not involve women. I admire Gareth Thomas' honesty, though I wish, for the sake of the gay community, he had been willing to speak out ten years earlier.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Zappa, I honestly fail to see why it should have any bearing on his rugby at all. He's a decent winger and talismanic presence on the field no matter what.

Perhaps this is more purgatorial, but it grates slightly that people expect sports players to be spokespeople for whichever minority they happen to be a member of. I think it's perfectly acceptable for Thomas to have his private life and not be a poster boy for gay rights. That we seem to rely on celebrities to do that campaigning for us speaks only to our lethargy.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Agreed in toto - but it was headlines in kiwiland this week.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Bill McLaren has died, aged 86.

May he rest in peace.
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
RIP Mr. McLaren.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
And now, sadly 1995 world champion Springbok Ruben Kruger has succumbed to his brain cancer. May he rest in peace and rise to glorious stadia.

( details )

[ 28. January 2010, 17:09: Message edited by: Zappa ]
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Even a Japie hard man can make it to the Great Playing Field in the Sky, I believe.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Some good news on the rugby front. I watched the second leg of the Championship play-off between Bristol and Exeter last night. Bristol had the classier performers but Exeter had everything else: great setpieces, ball retention, a top-class goal kicker and game-manager and much more desire.

A great couple of hours entertainment. I'm not sure how well Exeter will do next year in the Guinness Premiership but they don't lack for courage and effort.
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
And some bad news. NSW and Queensland are out of the Super 14 finals which will be an all South African affair.

Ah well, they tell me 'it's only a game'.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I grew up about two hundred yards from the back door of the Memorial Ground. I still follow Bristol's up-and-down fortunes with interest, and wish I was able to watch them play more often.

On balance, I think I'm fairly glad that we're not going to be back up in the Premiership next season. We need another twelve months to keep rebuilding and giving the younger players the experience. I'm not honestly sure that we're really a top-flight club these days because we don't have the commercial clout to compete for foreign players and so on. Richard Hill did a great job helping us punch above our weight when were were up, but the magic hasn't been there since his departure.
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Bristol were - at least in my memory - always overshadowed by their neighbours down the road at Bath but were a very good team. West Country rugby is still strong and the number of schools (and the university) will provide good players in future.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Bristol were - at least in my memory - always overshadowed by their neighbours down the road at Bath but were a very good team. West Country rugby is still strong and the number of schools (and the university) will provide good players in future.

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This indicate that I must be getting old!

Maybe it was an exceptional period but when I first came to know Bath FC they were definitely third in the pecking order behind Bristol (who were good) and Gloucester (who were almost as violent as their supporters ). They always gave a good account of themselves and had some very good players, including our chemistry teacher, through whom the school got unlimited schoolboy tickets! Bath always used to beat the flash Harry's from London though: Saracens, Wasps (who were pretty poor then), Rosslyn Park and Harlequins, Bob Hiller's goal kicking notwithstanding.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
A good effort from the Irish -apart from Heaslip's brain explosion.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
There's rugby happening? Somehow that got lost in all the round-ball hype that is flooding the media. A quick look at the BBC website reveals that England are playing Australia today (and losing ) and I didn't know! Scandal!!

Zappa, how can conceding 66 points be painted as a "good effort"? That's a bit much, even for a Kiwi!
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
At 13:00 today (BST) South Africa played France. To be accurate, South Africa started then but France didn't show up for until quarter past by which time they were 17-0 down. It was a bit less one-sided after that but 42-17 is a comfortable win.

3-0 for South v North overall
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Zappa, how can conceding 66 points be painted as a "good effort"? That's a bit much, even for a Kiwi!

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Yeah - it was probably a bit generous! The ABs brought six new caps on - who all played dangerously well - but the Irish clawed back from 38-0 to 66-28 once the coaches started playing tiggy.

New cap Israel Dagg was sensational.
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Scotland won!!

They beat Argentina 24-16.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Japes:
Scotland won!!

They beat Argentina 24-16.

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Thanks for doing something for the North's battered reputation. Argentina are serious opposition, especially at home.

I read that Martin Johnson is critical of the England players: he's got a point with some missed tackles and England's inability to cross the line by why, with Australia's scrum in disarray, did he take Tim Payne off and replace him with the entirely ineffective David Wilson? Many of the missed tackles came from England not understanding how Australia play - fast and loose - and being set up for that. That's a preparation problem and Johnson's problem; someone's got to tell him that he's fallible.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
One of the Good Guys joins the post-match celebration in Heaven.

God Bless you, Andy Ripley.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Yay! England beat Australia, in Australia for just the third time (IIRC). They only just managed it but they actually turned up and played in the first half, which always helps.

So long as this doesn't ensure that Martin Johnson continues as coach I don't mind. He's not a coach and unlike Clive Woodward, another non-coach, he doesn't have the strategic vision.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 


Take that, you smug Aussies! It wasn't even your scrummaging that let you down today, you just got beat fair and square!!
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
It was too late for me to watch the OZ - England game but NZ reports this morning suggest a hint of complacency from the Australians - well done England (as my tee shirt says, I support two teams: NZ and any team playing Australia). Wish I'd seen it.

The ABs played two halves, but in reverse order to last week's effort. Held up by a feisty Welsh team in the first half the only break out (Cory Jane's try) was utterly opportunistic, after Wales forgot that defence is a useful ingredient of attack, and that seventy metres clear runway without a defender is a fairly unsmart strategy. Two of the AB tries - the Jane one in the first half and Kahui's in the second, exposed woeful "oh it's time to do up my shoelace" type tackling.

The second half had the ABs looking fit and clinical, and by three-quarters the welsh were gasping for breath. As media said here though, the South Africans will be a different kettle of fish. And, thanks to England, the Wallabies may wake up, too.
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 


Scotland won again!! That's twice they have beaten Argentina. Twice.



[Japes dances happy dance, makes lots of noise, then retires to recover from all the excitement]
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
would've liked to have seen that one, too ...
 

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Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on :
 
Dig the new NZ and Wales strips.

FD
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Okay ... tonight the ABs will get bashed by the Boks. I'm always a pessimist, but going on Super 14 form we just kiwis ain't as tough (tougher, though, I suspect, than the Wallabies at present). The ABs will have a competitive line-out, but Victor Matfield is all but unstoppable in that part of the game. Morné Steyn makes Jonny Wilkinson and even Dan Carter look like ping pong players - expect drop goals and penalties from incomprehensible distances. Bryan Habana is like a bloody antelope, so expect rushed defence from the ABs to try to counter him. Schalk Burger will get sent off at some stage so perhaps the ABs may get back into the game then.

We shall see. Let the real battles begin. Tonight I say the Boks by 12 points. I also predict that the tri-nations will continue to be in the Springboks' hands, ABs second (with the Bledisloe Cup), and the Wallabies a fragmented third. I also predict that the Boks will win the (real!) World Cup, but that's a way out yet.

I'm looking forward to the Pumas joining the party one day soon. Go the All Blacks - surprise me. Cory Jane and Conrad Smith will have a great game, so will Dan Carter, and of course McCaw.

[ 10. July 2010, 04:05: Message edited by: Zappa ]
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Wrong on all aspects of tonight's game. The ABs produced the best football I've seen in some years: 32-12 was reasonably convincing: four tries to none and some simply brilliant play particularly from Muliana, Donnelly and Kaino. Possibly half back Cowan was off his game but no other problems from go to whoa, and the Boks were simply stunned, unable to find rhythm or pace. Botha rather than Burger was sin binned!

A fantastic game.
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
I agree it was a great performance by the ABs. Passion and pace all round, good handling, strong set pieces. It's not often you see Matfield beaten to his own ball in a lineout or the Bok scrum going backwards.

But two questions:

(1) what has happened to Fourie du Preez? has he retired while I was in hospital?

(2) Have NZ peaked way too early forthe World Cup, as they have so many times before?

[ 11. July 2010, 05:14: Message edited by: Tukai ]
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
The rematch was sweeter still - not least because, although the Boks played better, it was still the ABs game.

I haven't worked out what has happened to Fourie du Preez and will try to find out. As for the ABs peaking too soon, I doubt it. I think this is a different season, and the coaching staff will work hard to make sure 2011 is very carefully monitored.

Last night it was again pleasing to see that Carter and McCaw were not particularly visible around the field. Well McCaw was, because he is irrepressible. And Carter was in field play but not, certainly in the first half, with the boot. But he chuckled when Weepu got one over, and again as he tried to avoid kicking (which he did successfully) in the second half. But others were, especially Ma'a Nonu and Kieran Read. They were simply everywhere.

New boy Israel Dagg's try was simply poetic.

Awesome.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukai:
ns:

(1) what has happened to Fourie du Preez? has he retired while I was in hospital?

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It appears he's hurt his hand. But the come back seems a little slow.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
The All Blacks on paper should hold the Wallabies out tonight ... but will they. The Wallabies have a mercurial back line, especially inside backs. They will do their best to get inside the Ref's head to expose McCaw's exploitation of legal grey areas - though McCaw is also a master of adjustment in his personal game plan and execution. I predict a blody good game, and may even stay up late to watch it ... but there are no promises
 

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Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
The last time the Wobblies beat the All Blacks was July 2008. Now it is July again. Stranger things have happened, and they did play well last week.
 

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Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Zappa:
may even stay up late to watch it ...

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Who's a happy boy then?

FD
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Should rename this Zappa's thread. Ah well.

The Wallabies' pride is on the line, and they're hurting bad. They'll give the ABs one helluva a run for their money tonight. A wet track and greater fitness will give the ABs a win, by a smaller margin. Unless they go out on the field as complacently as the NZ media and public appear to be ... here's hoping Dan the man has his radar tuned ... and let's get a match with 30 players on the field from go to whoa (or, perhaps, woe)
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
...

but proof that defence wins games

... is anybody out there?
 

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Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
My thoughts exactly, the AB's defence was terrific. Australia has a good team but NZ has a better one! Apart from the first scrum I Thought the refereeing was fair and consistent.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Zappa:
... is anybody out there?

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Yes, but I'm not in the right part of the world to follow the Tri Nations, and it's still a bit before the European season gets going. I'm reading your posts with interest but I don't have much to contribute. Sorry.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
*happy sigh*
I was feeling a bit lonely there for a while!
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukai:

what has happened to Fourie du Preez? has he retired while I was in hospital?

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An answer at last
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Oops - no it wasn't. Synapse problem!
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
*very happy sigh*
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
An away win in South Africa? Not a bad result, I suppose...
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
More than the Wallabies could muster, at any rate. And Peter Bills is right: the Wallabies v Boks game was spectacular, but not for traditional rugby - or even good rugby. I git the impression both back lines tended to play a game of 'let's pick up the ball and run this way and see what happens'. The Bok forwards were better, and it won them the game.

That said, Francois Hougaard is looking very good at halfback, as he was last week against the All Blacks. The old warriors, Matfield and Smit, looked good, Smit redeeming himself after last week's game (for which he has publicly but needlessly berated himself).

The Australians' much vaunted Genia simply doesn't impress me: slow to pass, probably nearly a second slower than Hougaard, and with no penetration in his running. One top-spinning chip kick looked good, but that's not exactly 80 minutes of rugby. And Quade Cooper, who was allegedly present, achieved little more than a demented fruit fly. Best of the Australians? Um. perhaps Kurtley Beale.
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
The ABs dominated the TriNations (and you can't get much more dominant than winning all your games!)

One of the main reasons seems to be that they are the only side that can be guaranteed to play out the full 80 minutes (plus, if need be, the 5 minutes play after the 'full-time' siren that sometimes happens in rugby!). They beat SA by a point with 2 unanswered tries in the last 3 minutes and Australia by a point with 2 unanswered tries in the last 20 minutes.

In contrast, Australia (a much less experienced side) managed to lose to both SA and the ABs despite leading both matches by ~15 points just after half-time.

But, is the ABs admittedly superb form this year once again leading up to a choke at the Rugby World Cup next year, as on so many previous occasions?
 

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Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
Originally posted by Tukai
__________________________________________
But, is the ABs admittedly superb form this year once again leading up to a choke at the Rugby World Cup next year, as on so many previous occasions?
___________________________________________

I could only hope so!!
Last night was
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I just read this blog by Robert Kitson on a new pilot scheme aiming to encourage young English players to develop a more running, intuitive style of play. Any thoughts?

I think it sounds like an interesting idea, but I wonder if it won't get swamped by the combined forces of the traditionalists and modal English weather (and therefore pitch) conditions. Another interesting (to me) philosophical question is why should English players wish to emulate French or Kiwi styles? If that style of play is not suited to them or the conditions then isn't that a fools errand? England won the World Cup, and came runners-up by playing a thoroughly 'English' style so if it ain't broke, I don't see any need to fix it.
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
you can't get much more dominant than winning all your games!

One of the main reasons seems to be that they [the All Blacks] are the only side that can be guaranteed to play out the full 80 minutes (plus, if need be, the 5 minutes play after the 'full-time' siren that sometimes happens in rugby!). They beat SA by a point with 2 unanswered tries in the last 3 minutes and Australia by a point with 2 unanswered tries in the last 20 minutes.

---

Though the ABs once again played out the full 80 minutes, so (for a change) did Australia! So well done the Wallabies, now beginning to look like contenders for the 2011 World Cup.

But I don't envy England, who next weekend face the ABs on the rebound!

[ 02. November 2010, 08:49: Message edited by: Tukai ]
 

---

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 
Yes, the autumn internationals begin now, the annual test of how often the fans are willing to fork out for an international ticket. The Six Nations has only two or three home games over seven weekends, so four home matches in four weeks is totally ridiculous

Anyway, the matches.
- Eng v NZ may be the closest of the games, unless the Blacks rediscover their TriNations form quickly. Can anyone predict how England will play?
- W v Aus could well be washed out (will we leave the roof open again?) but possibly only a Wallaby-specific tornado will give Wales much of a chance if Aus play as they did last week.
- Ire v SA is one where I have no idea at all - the Irish have shown themselves able to beat (almost) anyone on their day, but those days are getting fewer as BOD, ROG and the rest qualify for their pensions.
- The Scots get a week off...

So who is brave enough to make predictions on scores?
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Ireland have to be brave and start selecting the younger players. There is plenty of talent (and some genius besides), they just have to select Fitzgerald, Jonny Sexton, Buckley, Healy etc and get stuck in. I've seen Leinster play without BOD and they won in a tough match and Munster, within POC put 40 points on Toulon. Neither had overseas players in the proportion to English and French club sides. They could do it.

England and Wales will be roasted. It won't be pleasant and Martin Johnson will be damn-near uninterviewable.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
So, England come up short again and Johnson does his usual routine of "we're getting better, we just have to capitalize on our chances". I admit that I only watched the highlights, but England seemed second-best throughout the game to me. I thought our decision making was particularly poor: too many tap penalties taken when the space wasn't there, overlaps missed, opportunities forced in the name of running rugby when a good tactical kick would have done better.

But on a positive note, I thought the back three played well, and Flood's goal kicking was excellent. A bit more experience of the pressure of the hardest Test matches and there is a chance that this team will become winners.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
All three NH teams played well, but not well enough while all three SH teams were a bit below-par and still won! That was my view.

Captain Thug (as Martin Johnson is known in Wales) must be thoroughly detached from reality. England are not 'Getting better': we are close to the best, but we are not getting closer. Quite who replaces our World-cup winning captain (is there any other reason he still has the job? Has no one the bottle to sack him?) I do not know.

Like Wales and Ireland, we can do the right things but we either make more errors than SH teams or, as Imaginary Friend says, we make wrong decisions.

Against Australia England may win if we slow down the game, keep it as tight as a gnat's chuff, hang on to the ball (even unto rucking and mauling in our 22 rather than kicking so they have a lineout on their 22) and eliminate the errors. That might not be enough against the Hairybacks though.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England are not 'Getting better'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... England may win if we slow down the game, keep it as tight as a gnat's chuff, hang on to the ball .. and eliminate the errors.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
Is scummaging an over-rated skill when 3/4 of them at this level seem to end in a penalty or a reset?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England damn near threw it away against Scotland today ...

---

Not quite nearly enough.
 

---

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Wales v Ireland, OTOH, was horrible. Did anyone spot a redeeming feature? OK, Sean O'Brien and Sam Warburton did well, but back row players always get noticed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I think we should have a sweepstake on when Andy Robinson collapses with a heart attack. He seems to be an unusually angry man, even by the standards of sports coaches. My bet would be at 55 minutes in the final group game of the world cup. Any other guesses?

---

Andy Robinson hasn't been the same man since 'The Chief' put this tackle on him a few years ago!

(at the end of the clip).
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
That made my eyes water.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
England! Oh England! Gosh that was embarrassing. I'm going to get some stick back in the office on Monday irrespective of the result of France v Wales (kick off in about ten minutes).

Well done Ireland and especially coach Declan Kidney for getting the side to play exactly the right game (ie, a lot like the Scots did last week, only better).
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Most important game since the World Cup final in 2007, and we don't turn up!

We were atrocious. Lazy around the park, not supporting the ball carrier or committing enough men to the breakdown, sloppy with ball in hand, tactically abysmal kicking from hand, our decision making sucked, and tackling was woeful.

Johnson would have been livid with that kind of performance of a player so I can hardly think what the dressing room would have been like after the final whistle.

And the worst part of it all? I watched the game in an Irish pub.
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
And Scotland won a game. At Murrayfield. We can die happy.
 

---

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
And Scotland won a game. At Murrayfield. We can die happy.

---

And even scored a couple of tries.
 

---

Posted by amber. (# 11142) on :
 
I would say something about the England performance, but I'd be breaking my Lent promise not to say rude words
 

---

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England! Oh England! Gosh that was embarrassing. I'm going to get some stick back in the office on Monday irrespective of the result of France v Wales (kick off in about ten minutes).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
There have been some cracking games in the Super 15 tourney this year, notably last week when the Queensland Reds got up in the last minute to beat the Canterbury Crusaders by one point, after they had gone end to end (mostly by running) for the previous 79 minutes.

---

And now these same two teams will [deservedly] contest the final next weekend.

[ 03. July 2011, 09:26: Message edited by: Tukai ]
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
It should be a rivetting Super 15 Final here at Suncorp Stadium.

I'm not even going to pretend to wish the Crusaders good luck.
 

---

Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on :
 
I've got a question about the England away shirt fiasco. (Even Jonah Lomu has weighed in today.)

Isn't the NZ away strip white? (And was white when the WC was held in the UK?) If so then how is that any different in reverse?
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Consider all questions answered ... by and large I think the All Blacks have only worn white when playing France in black mud (to their detriment!)
 

---

Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
Consider all questions answered ... by and large I think the All Blacks have only worn white when playing France in black mud (to their detriment!)

---

Thanks Zappa.

So why all the fuss then?

If it is okay for NZ to have an all white away strip why is it so sacrilegious for England to have an all black away strip? (Especially since Lomu picks up on the fact that England is known for its white strip?)
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
So long as we don't get the farce of a Scotland v New Zealand match a few years ago when both teams wore variations of their traditional strip that made it all but impossible to tell the difference! Murky day, Scotland in dark blue, some black and white trim; New Zealand in black, grey and white trim. I think the referee handled the game on the basis that a) New Zealand players don't make mistakes b) except that Richie McCaw will be offside at any time.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I had to laugh at the announcement of the England team for the weekend 'friendly' against Wales. England v Wales? Friendly? Who are they kidding!
 

---

Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
Entertaining game this evening (for New Zealanders).
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
A far more emphatic win than I expected from the ABs, basically shutting Quade Cooper out of the match and stamping authority all over the game in the first 20 minutes. Interesteingly I thing that stats would show the Wallabies had more possession - but the AB defence was massive, and when they got it they scored.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
World Cup warm-up matches are rarely of any quality but yesterday's Scotland v Ireland game set a record for ring-rustiness. The England v Wales match was better, except for Morgan Stoddart's broken leg; hope you get well soon
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
It was interesting to watch how England played. I know it wasn't their first choice team (and it wasn't Wales' either) but it was a bit worrying to see their defensive system broken down for the first try and the disallowed one. I'm sure other teams will notice...

The set pieces were good (apart from one lineout on the Welsh 5-metre line which went astray), and England's scrum was dominant for much of the game. The breakdowns seemed to be fairly fluid (helped by some tight refereeing) so that must mean that the back row had a decent outing.

Otherwise, I feel that Shaw and Armitage have staked out a strong claim for a place in the squad, but I don't agree with Stuart Barnes' ravings about Wilkinson. He had a sturdy game, and kicked well, but his distribution was nowhere near as good as Flood's, and I thought England were somewhat lacking in attack.

Finally, if I was a Welshman* I would be seething about the commentary. It was painfully Anglo-centric, and Barnes had almost nothing to say about the Welsh team or their prospects going forwards. Perhaps Barnes should have been replaced by a Welshman (or at least a neutral) for the game, and Sky should definitely consider it for next week.


* and with apologies to Catatonia, every day I thank the Lord I'm not.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Have to agree with you there. England were strong without being outstanding up front and the referee was just about Man of the Match. The puff round here was that Wales looked faster and fitter, which was true, but they have just come back from a fitness camp. If they aren't careful they will have peaked too soon.

Wilkinson was at fault for Wales first try and the disallowed one. His defence has been crucial to England's performance over the years and if he isn't doing that right better sides will make hay. I've got doubts over Hodgson too, but that's because he's simply not good enough!

We need another genuine no 8 too: Haskell hasn't the feet for it which is the key to defensive scrums on your own put-in (says a failed no 8).
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Oh, and isn't Rhys Priestland the spitting image of Ronan O'Gara?!
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Oh, and isn't Rhys Priestland the spitting image of Ronan O'Gara?!

---

There are similarities and he is from the Wild West of Wales, like most of the great Welsh fly-halves, and that's hardly a day's coracle paddling from Ireland, so they easily could be related.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
I rarely congratulate the Wallabies, but they deserved their grinding win over the cynical 'boks last night.
 

---

Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
Thanks Zappa, the wobblies surprised most of us here too. Hope we can show that form in the world cup. But after last weeks game the ABs must be favourites.
 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Watched the second half of US vs. Canada last night. Admittedly at altitude in Colorado but still.....neither team is going to worry Tonga or Samoa, let alone the 6 nations teams they will play. I suspect there will be some very very lopsided scores, again.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
At least the Tri-Nations is competitive! The Six Nations, the Pacific Islands and Argentina are engaged in warm-up matches which are achieving little other than injuring some important players and exposing others as not fit for purpose*. The matches are nothing to write home about either.

Wales were very pleased to beat England but to be honest England were clueless! They had obviously practiced with the Flood-Ashton moves in mind and had no Plan B when Ashton pulled out. Wales defence was exception but England should have had the game won by half-time. Fortunately for Wales, England played pretty stupid rugby, which isn't unusual.

*Not necessarily a total waste; Moody's a crock, Thompson is past it and Hodgson, Hape & Tindall form a midfield partnership from the Dark Ages.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I hate losing to Wales. Doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it still sucks.
 

---

Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :
 
I'll be heading along to Murrayfield for the Italy game this weekend. I'm looking forward to it, although the last time I went to see those 2 teams play, the result was memorable for all the wrong reasons
Scotland v Italy 2007
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
I'll be heading along to Murrayfield for the Italy game this weekend. I'm looking forward to it, although the last time I went to see those 2 teams play, the result was memorable for all the wrong reasons
Scotland v Italy 2007

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The Six Nations, the Pacific Islands and Argentina are engaged in warm-up matches which are achieving little other than injuring some important players and exposing others as not fit for purpose

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I hate losing to Wales. Doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it still sucks.

---

There are so many possible smilies in reply but I'll stick to one . Not that I saw either game as I was in Spain at the time.

We Welsh now have an almost instinctive fear of Samoa sides (even though the defeat in '99 made no difference to the outcome of the Group) plus now we have the Fiji factor to contend with. At least we haven't sacked the manager just before the RWC as we did in 91, 95, 03... Of course, we could repeat 07 and sack him after the tournament instead!

The above may give you the impression that I have little hope for the Welsh team in NZ. That would be wrong - we always have hope - but if I were a betting man I wouldn't put money on Wales getting through the group stage.

Interesting to see how Eng v Ire goes when both squads have already been announced - will anyone take risks?
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I hate losing to Wales. Doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it still sucks.

---

There are so many possible smilies in reply but I'll stick to one . Not that I saw either game as I was in Spain at the time.

We Welsh now have an almost instinctive fear of Samoa sides (even though the defeat in '99 made no difference to the outcome of the Group) plus now we have the Fiji factor to contend with. At least we haven't sacked the manager just before the RWC as we did in 91, 95, 03... Of course, we could repeat 07 and sack him after the tournament instead!

The above may give you the impression that I have little hope for the Welsh team in NZ. That would be wrong - we always have hope - but if I were a betting man I wouldn't put money on Wales getting through the group stage.

---

quote:

---

Interesting to see how Eng v Ire goes when both squads have already been announced - will anyone take risks?

---

It's a particularly stupid time to hold a warm-up match. I'm surprised the Irish agreed to it.

[ 22. August 2011, 12:26: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
wallabies utterly fired up
 

---

Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
wallabies utterly fired up

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny S:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
wallabies utterly fired up

---

Wallabies triumphant.

First the Super 15.

Then the Tri Nations.

What are the odds of the entire AB side spontaneously combusting from the pressure of the WC build up?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny S:
What are the odds of the entire AB side spontaneously combusting from the pressure of the WC build up?

---

There is significant historical precedent for choking in the final stages of the world cup, isn't there?
 

---

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
*bump*

As the opening game of the World Cup 2011 has been played, and I am eagerly awaiting the second match, it's time to bump this thread up!

I have my time zones all worked out, I have allowed for the daylight saving time change on 25 September, I have my Scotland Rugby shirt all washed and ready for wearing, I have my colleagues all prepared to allow for my insanity for the next few weeks or so - we support at least five different teams in my team at work.

I think I'm prepared.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
England's games are all at stupid o'clock in the morning here, so I doubt I'll be watching any of the group stages. If they get through to the semis or the final then I'll make the effort. This is one downside to living on the wrong continent for Proper Sport™
 

---

Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
And there is an upside to living next door to the world cup venue, all games are at civilised times here.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
There have been five matches so far, none of them outstanding exhibitions of skill but the teams from any distance away have all looked pretty ordinary. England infringed at every opportunity (and Wlkinson couldn't have beaten a one-legged man at an arse-kicking contest), Scotland started brightly but didn't get back into the game until Romania took off their most inspiring and effective players, France were unconvincing until late on, which leaves New Zealand and Fiji.

So, in addition to watching rugby in the middle of the night, are some teams playing at that hour too?!?
 

---

Posted by BessHiggs (# 15176) on :
 
Grrrr, I'm so frustrated. I can get all the games (OK, it's Pay Per View, but I can still get them) but I don't have a DVR. My rugby buddy has a DVR but his satellite provider is only offering a few of the games (sadly also PPV) and I'm fairly sure that my husband would be less than thrilled about us watching the games live at my house at O'dark-thirty. The little ticker thing on the official web-site is so very less than satisfying
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Italy - minor brain explosion at the penalty
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Italy matched it for 30 mins but I think they're a gone-burger now ... brave effort

[ 11. September 2011, 04:05: Message edited by: Zappa ]
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Or maybe not - 6-6 at 40 minutes!
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Blow-out - a point a minute
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
interestingly, I didn't really see much attack cohesion from the Italians while they were still in the game. Great defence - for one half. Then the Australians became a juggernaut.

[ 11. September 2011, 05:12: Message edited by: Zappa ]
 

---

Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
They were only playing Italy
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Wales (I have audio only) making a decent fist of it at half time ...
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
RWC is shaping up as per usual:

- Wales snatch defeat from the jaws of victory
- England grind out a sort of win
- Coaches (notably England's) complain about the ball
- New Zealand look OK, but with their no 10 injured could they be about to bottle it again?
- East European sides look as hard as nails, making us grateful the Cold War never got hot

Game of the tournament thus far this morning between Canada and Tonga, Canada winning by making fewer errors.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Yeah, well done to Canada. Tonga aren't usually that terrible, right? So I think that's a decent win.

Also, the USA beat Russia this week. Probably not quite the same atmosphere as when the hockey teams play, but still...
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Evidence of England last weekend refutes the myth that anyone in New Zealand who pulls on a black jersey automatically becomes stronger and faster. It seems this only applies to New Zealanders!

One comment I saw suggested that for anyone else to wear black on a rugby field in NZ was like a chick turning up to someone else's wedding in a white dress!

Meanwhile Fiji flags are flying on every car and shop in this country and 'Go Fiji Go!' T-shirts much in evidence as we await the big game against South Africa this evening. Custom here is watch it live on TV in a group gathered round a large bowl of kava. Looking forward to doing just this - and at a reasonable hour for once.

As a preview I'm a bit worried that SA's ace kicker Morne Steyn may have heard that in Fiji's first game, the Namibian 5/8 kicked 3 field goals in 6 minutes. We hope that the notoriously swirling wind inside the 'cake tin' at Wellington makes this hard even for Steyn.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
And then there was Ireland
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I saw a guy walking through DC wearing an Aussie rugby shirt this morning (so after the game was played). I almost went over to congratulate him but didn't quite have the courage.
 

---

Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
In the other code NZ beat melbourne
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Herrick:
In the other code NZ beat melbourne

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny S:
Congratulations to Scotland for gaining the bonus point they so eagerly desired.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
(btw, I don't think Lawes and Wilkinson will start the QF: any views?)

---

I'd pick Flood over Wilkinson but leave the rest as is.

Overall I can't understand the media response. England haven't played well but they've done enough to win their group. Talk of Wales having played the best of the NH sides is (IMHO) ridiculous - they lost to the Boks.

The only team I'd fear is the ABs outside of the final. If England manage to make it to the final then the infamous NZ 'choking' factor comes in to play.

England's biggest problems seem to be occurring off the pitch.
 

---

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
Just out of interest, has anyone else seen the All Black Jesus? We spotted it in the Metro some days back, but I'd have thought it was just the sort of thing that the Ship would love...

AG
 

---

Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on :
 
Well I didn't see that coming!

I know the French have a habit of suddenly turning it on for one match in the WC but I didn't think it would happen against the English.

Well played France - I think that spell of about 20 mins in the first half won it for you.

England weren't great but they did have opportunities that they failed to take. On the day they just weren't good enough.

Wales vs. France is a tough one to call. (Mainly as it depends on which French team turn up.)

I like the French but they can be kind of French.
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I thought England were riding for a fall, and you never can tell with the French. There is always a danger that they will play well enough for long enough, even when in a bad patch. A disappointment, but not really a surprise.

I'd prefer Wales to win, but judging by my 100% wrong record on the baseball thread, it's probably prudent to tip France!
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
The French team looked very together before, during and after the game; apart from talking to the press I'm not sure the Marc Lievremont did anything at all!

England didn't turn up in the first half and if ever it could be shown that Lewis Moody is not a leader today was it. Give it to Nick Easter who is the only effective no 8 we have. Selecting a tight-head to play loose-head was dim (Matt Stevens can do it, but it isn't smart to start him there) which shows that bringing over another back-row for the injured Andrew Sheridan wasn't a good idea. Once we had loose- & tight- head props playing there, and Flood at ten instead of inside centre, England improved no end. Lawes didn't look lost at no 6 either; I wouldn't play him there on a muddy day at Lansdowne Road or Murrayfield though.

Oh, and Wales were brilliant! Was O'Driscoll on the field?
 

---

Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on :
 
Bad luck any English or Irish supporters.

Hope you have no cause to say the same to me tomorrow.
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Great display by Wales last night. Good defence, even if they were pinged quite often by the ref. And it was good to see a knockout match won not by penalty kicks but by 3 well-constructed tries.

I predict a close match today between SA and Australia. As with France, it will depend on which Australian side turns up tonight, particularly the forwards. The Aussie backline is one of the few with the skills and speed to run in tries against the always solid Saffa defence, but to do so they will need the forwards to get them good ball, unlike against Ireland. Having Pocock on the ball should help, but Brussouw is a worthy opponent for him.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
The statistics lied and Australia won. Next week will be scary for me - I didn't think the ABs found a rhythm against les Pumas. Whatever happens now we have an inter-hemisphere final.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
The Australian defence was awesome, like that of Wales and yes, Pocock made a big difference. New Zealand did a good job, especially as their top #10 and his replacement were missing. To get that many penalties shows that the AB forwards were on top, which was no mean feat against Argentina.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Scary weekend coming. I want Wales and NZ to win ... but will they?

[ 11. October 2011, 20:38: Message edited by: Zappa ]
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Ugh
 

---

Posted by Sylvander (# 12857) on :
 
Can someone tell me whether the name of the Welsh player Leigh Halfpenny is pronounced half-penny or ha'penny?
 

---

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
It's halfpenny, not ha'penny.
At least, that's what the commentators say.

[ 14. October 2011, 13:46: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
 

---

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
So will it be a trip to the pub at a silly time in the morning or should I find a friend with a satellite dish? An Irish breakfast sounds tempting.

Go Whales!

[ETA weak pun]

[ 14. October 2011, 14:49: Message edited by: Jonah the Whale ]
 

---

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
Several of my colleagues are going to the Millenium Stadium in Cardiff tomorrow to see the match on the big screens there.
If Wales wins, Cardiff is going to be full of drunks tomorrow. If Wales loses, Cardiff is going to be full of drunks tomorrow. Either way, the Western Mail ("The National Newspaper of Wales") is going to be unspeakable all of next week. This week, the first couple of pages each day have been about rugby. Other, lesser, news has started to appear about page 4.
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
I'm tipping Wales to beat France. What a team! Just kept up the pressure against a gallant Ireland.

Us versus the All Blacks? A hard one to call. Is McCaw in or out? Will Cooper fire or choke? Will Deans drop him and put Barnes in his place?

Which Anzac side, if either, is going for the Super Choker Award?
 

---

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
Friends and parents are going to the Millennium Stadiwm tomorrow to see it on the big screen -- I've got a Franciscan Quiet Day to the West, so may well be reduced to listening to it on the radio.

But given how Wales have been playing, it should be a very good game. We should have beaten SA in the first match and we've been a lot more consistent than the French. Bought myself a shirt today.

Carys
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Another glorious defeat for Wales

They had the chances, three penalties missed including two kickable ones, and France only very rarely looked dangerous going forward. They look unlikely to trouble either of the other semi-finalists (so they will confound me and win).

I'll be cheering Australia or NZ in the final, which has more to do with Imanol Harinordoquy than anything else.
 

---

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
Ah well, if Wales had won, my colleagues ere threatening to borrow a wheelchair from the hospital where we work and take me down to the Millenium Stadium - either that, or purloin a shopping trolley - so I'm saved from that!
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Pity about Sam Warburton's seeming brain implosion. Andrew Slack, former Wallabies captain, commented that the worse side won.

Thierry Dussotur really showed leadership. Imanol Hardinoquoy is superb.

We'll see what happens tonight.
 

---

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
I'm not sure 'brain implosion' is fair. He has said there was nothing malicious about it and to me it looked as though he lost control and let go rather than deliberated pushing him at the ground. But we should have got one of the kicks. Doesn't say much for France that they only won by one point when they were a man up for 3/4 of the match and it was the Welsh who scored the try.

Carys
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
The commentary team (it's ITV, isn't it?) and Michael Owen in particular were vehement that it should not have been a red card. Absolutely vehement.

I disagree - it was only because the French player tucked his head forward at the last second that he didn't land with his full bodyweight on his neck. That would have been very nasty. I wouldn't have been outraged if Rolland had only given a yellow, but by the letter of the law the red was justified.

In my humble opinion.
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carys:
Doesn't say much for France that they only won by one point when they were a man up for 3/4 of the match and it was the Welsh who scored the try.

Carys

---

Yes, if France are as unenterprising as tonight against either New Zealand or even Australia, they will be thrashed. Carys is right that if either Hook or Jones could kick straight,or if they their lineout had performed properly (not impossible even with a man down) Wales would have had a well-deserved win. But not if Halfpenny's kick had gone over, as it looked to me like the penalty went the wrong way, with the Welsh player holding onto the ball.

And I agree with IF that while Warburton certainly deserved a yellow card, a red may have been a touch harsh. But the ref was certainly entitled to give a red. The send-off certainly spoiled the expected spectacle, as Wales would have been mad to play a wide game with a man short.

Interestingly that's the second match in the knock knock-out stages where one team has won everywhere but on the scoreboard. I'd be surprised if Australia can pull that off twice in succession though, as they must all still be feeling battered and bruised even more than usual after a rugby match.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
This little bunny is very nervous as game time draws near. Last night's was a sad affair, and I foresee an brutal thrashing next week, but at whose hands?

Where's the nail biting need a stiff whisky smiley?
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
McCaw in, Beale out ... as Sir Pellinore says, will Q Cooper at last keep his two brain cells together (okay, I said that)? The crowd will hound Cooper mercilessly - no-one messes with a much loved EnZed captain. Much intrigue - huge injury lists to both sides. The half backs have very different styles, the NZ 1st 5/8 is much admired in NZ but little international track record ...

Be very afraid, NZ, if the ABs go down. Forget an apocalyptic oil slick or a few cantabrian aftershocks - the entire nation will slip beneath the waves - with Wales - and whimper through eternity.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
The ABs closed Australia out pretty efficiently, and Cruden didn't let anyone down. Only a lack of a goal kicker prevented it looking one-sided. Hardly a spectacle though.

99% of the principality is saying 'we wuz robbed' after Warbuton's red card, but that's a national characteristic; Wales may conceded more points than they score, but they are never, ever beaten! That said, it was nowhere near the worst tackle I have seen. You have to go back to 1960's Rugby League for genuine 'spear tackles'.

I'm for NZ in the final, for reasons stated earlier: Harinordoquy may be in the form of his life, but I still don't like him. Oh, and the ABs are a better side to watch.
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Well, there is no doubt the best team won yesterday.

I think the ABs answered any questions put to them.

Glad Quade Cooper didn't fizzle but came back. Great drop goal.

Piri Weepu is really something. Can't help liking the bloke.

It will be a grand final.

I'd tip the All Blacks, but, with the French, you never, never know. Thierry Dusottor has real leadership abilities, there could have been a real donnybrook after Sam Warburton's brain implosion, which he stopped. Haridinoquoy is a Basque with real fire and drive. When the French combine. Sacre bleu!

Amie's late father was French so it'll be Allez Les Bleus in the Pellinore household next Sunday. But I wish our Anzac cousins well. At least I won't be stressed out watching the game.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The ABs closed Australia out pretty efficiently, and Cruden didn't let anyone down. Only a lack of a goal kicker prevented it looking one-sided

---

The scary thing is that Weepu had the flu Look out France if he's 100%
 

---

Posted by Sylvander (# 12857) on :
 
Alas, going by this weekend's performances, I don't think Europe's representatives will stand a chance against the Happa Clappa ballet boys.

[edited bc "goting" isn't a word]

[ 17. October 2011, 09:03: Message edited by: Sylvander ]
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
"Happa Clappa ballet boys"????????????????????
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Wait a minute - I kind of misread the conditional tense ... gotcha now!
 

---

Posted by Sylvander (# 12857) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
"Happa Clappa ballet boys"????????????????????

---

Each time I see them they perform this cute ballet before proceeding to the slaughter of their foes.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I dare you to say that to their face.
 

---

Posted by Sylvander (# 12857) on :
 
I'm very brave that way, you know.
Because I am quite a decent runner
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
You think you'd outpace an international winger? Riiight.



But on a similar note, Cory Jane has a very girlie-sounding name.
 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Who was it that once stood up to the AB during the thing and stared them down after, making the AB turn first?
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Who was it that once stood up to the AB during the thing and stared them down after, making the AB turn first?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sylvander:
Scotland could perform a highland fling. That should strike fear into the hearts of the bravest. Especially as its traditional form requires the presence of a few broadswords or a spiky shield on the ground.

---

quote:

---

posted by Siono Sais:
Scotland should play in kilts which, if worn in the approved manner, would enable them to employ the 'Highland Farewell' as their war dance

---

Never mind the war dance. Think of the scrum...

[ 19. October 2011, 13:06: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
 

---

Posted by Sylvander (# 12857) on :
 
Two weeks ago I ran a marathon in my kilt. Can't say it intimidated or made the opposition any slower. But it certainly made the audience (especially the female half of it) far more appreciative of my efforts.
I my case doing a highland fling by contrast would only strike pity and sympathy into the hearts of the meek and tears of laughter into the eyes of the brave.
I wonder how much time the AB spend practicing their ballet? It looks extremely well rehearsed.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sylvander:
Two weeks ago I ran a marathon in my kilt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kingsfold:

quote:

---

posted by Siono Sais:
Scotland should play in kilts which, if worn in the approved manner, would enable them to employ the 'Highland Farewell' as their war dance

---

Never mind the war dance. Think of the scrum...

---

quote:

---

posted by Jonah the Whale:
Can I ask further, did you have any trouble with chafing?

---

The juxtaposition of that question with Jonah's location of Nether Regions is either or or quite possibly

[ 19. October 2011, 15:29: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
 

---

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Who was it that once stood up to the AB during the thing and stared them down after, making the AB turn first?

---

The "thing"! The "thing"?
Have some respect or we'll send out a raiding party.
 

---

Posted by Sylvander (# 12857) on :
 
[Tangent to answer questions]
Did I hear the words "kilt" and "retard" in the same sentence?

Time was 5'15". I have never remotely run for so long. The pace allowed me to chat away the whole time with two friends come over from Scotland for the day. Actually the fact I had not had time to train reasonably since May was the reason why I treated the matter lightly and wore the kilt and a hat with red hair coming oot (Cologne is Germany's carnival capital). The kilt (even a light sports kilt like this one) is not an attire for a competitive time, especially if it was your own birthday party the night before Imaginary Fiend, if you consider running a race in a kilt I'd reckon it slows you down by about 5 to 10 percent, the longer the distance the greater the effect. Mainly due to extra weight.
In hindsight I can recommend to any competitive runner to at least once do the marathon at the back of the field. It is a unique and beautiful experience, very social and relaxed. Other British runners came up, a cyclist and even some spectators ran with us for a few minutes. And I even had time to drink half a glass of beer which a spectator offered en route.

Chafing is an issue obviously? A few friends and I once did a 5k with my real kilt (heavy rough wool) and a 10k in the sports kilt, both worn traditionally. It was ok (except for a group of Dutch trying to lift kilts before the start) but I would not recommend a longer distance without an extra layer underneath.
2 weeks ago I was more worried about the constant rubbing / light slapping on the thighs. I suspect that this might indeed become a factor if one runs properly, but with our jogging the effect was not so strong.
So, overall only good news for the ladies. No untoward after-effects were recorded. [/tangent]

On Sunday I shall watch in an Irish pub in Dusseldorf (nobody in Germany even knows there is a world cup on). Question is how to find the one where the handful of hardy French gather. At least I want to have company to share my grief. Or does anyone think they stand a chance?
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sylvander:
On Sunday I shall watch in an Irish pub in Dusseldorf (nobody in Germany even knows there is a world cup on). Question is how to find the one where the handful of hardy French gather. At least I want to have company to share my grief. Or does anyone think they stand a chance?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny S:
I'm willing to admit that this is probably sour grapes but I'm struggling to see how this WC has been such a success for Wales (as a lot of media hype claims) when they managed to lose three times and didn't beat any southern hemisphere opposition.

In fact it was really just about one win against Ireland.

---

You have to remember that for Wales, it's not results that count, but how they play. They said they'd come and throw it wide and they did, ergo, successful tournament. That they were 'robbed' by an (obviously bitter and vindictive) Irish ref only adds a further veneer of self-righteousness.

Oh, and a couple of their forward played well so that gives hope for the future, and Shane Williams was retiring so his damp squib of a career had to be immortalized by a missed try-scoring opportunity or two.

[NB, the views expressed here are probably influenced by my Bristolian upbringing. So sue me. ]
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Johnny S is right to be disappointed in the standard of rugby in the RWC but there have been some poor competitions before. I don't remember the 1991 competition as an outstanding example of the game. Then again, rugby doesn't lend itself to spectacle, hence the attempts to make it 'exciting'.

Wales can point at an embitterred ref all they like, but ultimately they lost against France because of poor goal kicking, and you can put today's defeat down to that too (although who wants to play for third place?)
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
... getting nervous again ...
 

---

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :
 
Nervous is an understatement. In this household we are nearly beside ourselves with anxiety!
 

---

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
what was that about a team that formed up and moved towards the AB during the haka then? We had a French arrowhead this morning...

[tangent] Sylvander - why have you changed your avatar? I'm [/tangent]

[ 23. October 2011, 08:14: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
 

---

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :
 
Clearly another raiding party is called for.


Its half time. I would have hoped to have few more points on the board by now....aauuuggghhhh
 

---

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :
 
well done the AB's!
 

---

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :
 
Whew!
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Are you kidding me? How can a team score so few points and yet win a game of that stature? Wow!
 

---

Posted by Bernard Mahler (# 10852) on :
 
Tres snikki, hein?
 

---

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :
 
The World in Union and New Zealand in a massive , collective hangover......
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Sean Fitzpatrick (former AB captain) summed up nicely:
"I'm not sure that the ABs deserved to win that match, but they did deserve to win the Cup".

I agree, because they were the only team to play consistently well throughout the tournament, not to mention the previous 3 years. Wales were having a good go and playing rugby worth watching; and with a decent goalkicker they would have won those close ones. As for the rest...
 

---

Posted by Sylvander (# 12857) on :
 
France are to Rugby what the Netherlands are to football
Did Brits tend to support France in this final (Europe vs South) or rather NZ (Commonwealth relatives)?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I find it strange that Germany hasn't taken to Rugby in a big way. Lots of 'big units' as the saying goes and plenty with the, er, uncompromising attitude that helps in the game.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sylvander:
France are to Rugby what the Netherlands are to football
Did Brits tend to support France in this final (Europe vs South) or rather NZ (Commonwealth relatives)?

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I find it strange that Germany hasn't taken to Rugby in a big way. Lots of 'big units' as the saying goes and plenty with the, er, uncompromising attitude that helps in the game.

---

Yes. But seeing our collection of trophies in football and other world famous sports (with world cups) like this, this and this we like to be generous that way. Is there any other sport where NZ can win a world cup?

---

quote:

---

The truth is of course more simple. We hate having to say: "Yes, sir!" to the referee.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
Sean Fitzpatrick (former AB captain) summed up nicely:
"I'm not sure that the ABs deserved to win that match, but they did deserve to win the Cup".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sylvander:
... Did Brits tend to support France in this final (Europe vs South) or rather NZ (Commonwealth relatives)? ...

---

I would support anyone against the French, even the Welsh.

Definitely Commonwealth over Common Market.

For the record, I'm a Scot married to an Englishman.

PS Congratulations to NZ.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Alfie quits

Gareth Thomas, Wales (Union & League) and British Lions three-quarter has retired. He's been around, I think, forever.

Have a long, happy and peaceful retirement.
 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
So apparently the powers that insist the Haka being watched by the opponents with blanc stares and fined the French for this.


I thought NZ rugby people were not wusses?
 

---

Posted by Sylvander (# 12857) on :
 
I thought the Haka is a war dance, obviously meant to intimidate and ridicule the opposition (I know that nowadays it looks ridiculous but its intention was/is the opposite, no?).
How on earth can one expect the recipients of this war dance to watch "with respect"? Surely if the others do show a reaction you must be able to take a little bit of what you give?
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
So apparently the powers that insist the Haka being watched by the opponents with blanc stares and fined the French for this.


I thought NZ rugby people were not wusses?

---

Pathetic. It isn't as if the French turned their back on it - which would be showing disrespect. But it is typical of sports administrators.

I say give the ABs a choice: haka or national anthem (which I'd miss, because it's a very good anthem, and the haka we get now isn't the proper one).

btw, Australia's women's Rugby team was fined last year for 'not showing respect' to the haka. Don't know what they did though.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
To be fair, I doubt the ABs were too perturbed by France's advance on them. This seems like IRB meddling rather than Kiwi whining.

But the historical records do show that traditionally, the tribe on the receiving end of a Haka would stand and watch politely while the formalities we dealt with, give a polite round of applause, pause for a cup of something restorative and then continue with their business of warfare.
 

---

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
To be fair, I doubt the ABs were too perturbed by France's advance on them. This seems like IRB meddling rather than Kiwi whining.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

I thought NZ rugby people were not wusses?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

I thought NZ rugby people were not wusses?

---

As hinted above, I think most kiwis respected the French response, and are horrified at the IRB's decision.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

I thought NZ rugby people were not wusses?

---

As hinted above, I think most kiwis respected the French response, and are horrified at the IRB's decision.

---

Fair enough.

Anybody know who asked the IRB to introduce this bylaw or regulation? It sounds like it came from the time when NZ didn't want to do the haka before the anthem.

BTW, does anybody know when they run up against the Tongans, who does their dance first?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sylvander:
They do that in football, too?

---

I don't know about football (soccer) cos I've never seen them on TV. Basketball, women's Rugby and Hockey (Field) are the ones I've seen, at least in games against Australia. I don't think the Netball team does the haka, maybe they should have on Wednesday night to get them closer to matching the Aussie girls!
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
I think the IRB fell off their tree. The haka is a challenge. The French responded. No punchup occurred.

The reception of the team in Paris was magnifique. A class show.

Amie's father being French we supported Les Bleus. The ABs are the cousins we love to hate.
 

---

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Six Nations time is upon us.


 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Oh Yes ! .... And what a hugely physical clash between Scotland and England today.

The result went England's way
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Robert the Bruce can stick that where the sun don't shine - his boys really didn't like it up 'em today.
 

---

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
Waaales, Waaales.....
I felt it was the right result but not necessarily the right score. Wales were certainly the dominant side.(But then, I'm biased)
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Dan Parks was definitely Man of the Match on Saturday - for England! He had a terrible time and but for him Scotland would probably have won. I suppose he's Australian again now. It wasn't simply the charged down kick that led to a try, but the possession he kicked away. We'll see just how good England's new defensive midfield is when they play Wales.

Ireland looked sick and angry as they trooped off, but if you concede a try when a man up, you won't win many.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
The 'Spear tackle' controversy seems to be following Wales around like a bad smell.
I think they can count themselves as pretty fortunate with Sunday's outcome.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
The 'Spear tackle' controversy seems to be following Wales around like a bad smell.
I think they can count themselves as pretty fortunate with Sunday's outcome.

---

Even Wales' coach says Bradley Davies was fortunate only to get a yellow. He might get cited for it anyway, in which case he would miss two or three more games, and he's crucial for Wales as their World Cup locks aren't fit. Ryan Jones, usually blindside or no 8, might play at lock.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
England 0 - 6 up against Italy with 3 mins to half-time , and then go into the changing room 12 - 6 down

Tell me that didn't happen.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Goodness me England have won !
All very unbelievable,
rather like the abundant snow falling on the Rome pitch.
 

---

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
Never in doubt rolyn, not for a second.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I'm just watching a recording of the Italy v England game now, so I haven't read today's posts on this thread yet, but can I just say...

Jeremy Guscott's scarf!
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
...And the only thing better than the scarf was Young Farrell's goal kicking. Do you think they'll start using the Mitre ball at Twickenham?
 

---

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
I only saw the first half of the Wales match as our afternoon/evening service is at 4.30, but was very pleased to hear the final score! The first half was certainly tough and Wales and Scotland seemed pretty evenly matched.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
At full strength and when concentrating Scotland were indeed equal to Wales, but they started the second-half appallingly then played one if not two men short for 15 minutes. Wales won the gamme in the first fifteen minutes after half time, but they were out on their feet at the end.

So far there have been two really good games and Wales have played in both. The rest has been forgettable.

[ 13. February 2012, 11:32: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
So how do you rate Wales' chances against England?
 

---

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So how do you rate Wales' chances against England?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So how do you rate Wales' chances against England?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Triple Crown down, Grand Slam to go. Go Wales!

---

 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Your boys were bloody lucky.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
England's young new team put in an inspired performance, but the upper-body strength on some of the Welsh players carried the day.

The only problem with bringing on substitutes late in 'the game that batters' is that they're not hardened like those who've been in it from the start.
The winning try came about with our chap being dispossessed of the ball like taking candy off kids.

Well done Wales, the Triple Crown was well deserved.
 

---

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
I only saw the second half, but well done Wales!
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
You wouldn't know it in Darwin, but the southern hemisphere season is under way ... but not on any free to air format I have access to ...
C'mon the Hurricanes (Wellington)
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
It's Lent, Zappa and I'm trying to give up SOF for the duration but your post tempted me and I fell.

Although a born again Thugby fan, I too, have no access to Pay TV.

When Easter comes I will regret it, but, for Lent

I know the Reds won but I am glad to see a Jake White inspired Brumbies revival and I am glad to see the Rebels improve.

Australian Rugby can only, I hope, improve.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
OMG England beat France on their home turf

Only saw bits of the game . Enough to see the Ref didn't do us any favours . So double congrats to the lads
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I just got round to watching the France v England match. Oh boy, what a game! Some interesting refereeing, a French team that seemed to have an identity crisis, and an English team that seemed intent on doing just about enough and no more. But what about Tom Croft's line when he scored the try? Sublime!

But on another topic, did anyone else see the BBC's shout out to the Women's Six Nations? England have won their first four games and only conceded six points in doing so! Very impressive. It's now set up for a Grand Slam decider against Ireland.

[ 14. March 2012, 13:33: Message edited by: Imaginary Friend ]
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
RIP Merv the Swerve.

Back in the early seventies, until his career was cruelly cut short by a brain haemorrhage, Mervyn Davies was the best number 8 in the world. The can't have been many lanky rugby-playing schoolboys anywhere who didn't want to emulate him.

It's going to add something to tomorrow's match at the Milleneum Stadium.
 

---

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
Yay Wales!
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Boo Wales!

I'm now officially trying to avoid the result of the England game so that I can watch the replay in the morning. Whether I'll be successful is doubtful, but here's to trying!
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
And St Patrick can suck on that!
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
God Almighty - we even got stuffed by the Italians.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Apart from the emotion in Cardiff and the sight of England's scrum pushing the Irish all over Twickenham (Oh how different to last year!) it was hardly a weekend for quality rugby.

I've got to admit that the Italian crowd is definitely the best looking in the championship! That, or the director picks out the eye-candy.
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
the sight of England's scrum pushing the Irish all over Twickenham

---

I picked the right day for my first Six Nations visit to HQ
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
It was definitely a game for the purists! And to be fair to the Irish, it was only when their first-choice tighthead went off that they were so comprehensively beaten.

But I'll take it.
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Never mind competitions between 6 nations or 15 'provinces'. This coming weekend will see a truly international feast of rugby, with 32 nations contesting the Hong Kong Sevens. What's more, it will all be running rugby, and isn't what it supposed to be about. The top players are all quick in the legs but also between the ears.

No wonder that sevens is about to become an Olympic sport, as it much more international and suited to a wider range of physiques than the boreathons featuring 6 successive scrum resets, after which the ref [mentally] tosses a coin to decide which side should spend a minute or two lining up a penalty goal.

The whole tournament will be broadcast live into Fiji, where it is the national game, and the only sport in which Fiji has been world champion.

Fiji are in with a good chance of winning, but the competition in these tournaments is always close, particularly once it gets to the quarter finals. New Zealand and England are nearly always in the last 8, helped by the number of Fijian emigres in each of their sides. Samoa and South Africa are always serious contenders too. Others not normally thought of as rugby nations, such as Kenya, also win many matches.
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
I love watching sevens. It's a bugger to play though unless you are a lot fitter than I was when I tried it. I went to HK one year, long ago, and had a fantastic time. I think some of the smaller rugby nations see it as an area where, with a bit of investment, they can compete on much more level terms than 15s, witness Kenya, as Tukai said, but also Portugal and Spain.
The women's competition has also been growing in recent years. It is not all the same suspects as the men's game. England and Australia will be good (NZ won't be there), but watch out too for the Dutch (Yay!), Spanish and particularly the Canadians who I think have a good chance of winning it.
In my view sevens is a much better spectator sport than the full fifteen-a-side, not only because it is faster paced, but also with fewer players on the field there are far fewer infringements for the ref to make an arbitrary decision about. This makes it much easier for a non-rugby person to understand and appreciate.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
On another matter - if you were one of the 57 Old Farts, would you give Stuart Lancaster the England job full time?
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
I would. I think a young England team performed quite decently, and improved as the tournament went on. I suppose we were fortunate to play Scotland and Italy first, while still finding our feet, but finishing second behind a good Welsh team is not a sackable offence in my view.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Paradoxically I have no interest in Sevens - or about as much as I do in League. Which is none. Sevens demands fitness I concede, but seems to be over before it's started, and lacks the titanic struggle and forward/back duality of the real game. Like League, in fact (at least insofar as the forward/back duality is concerned. I admit League lasts longer. Interminably longer).
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I'm with Zappa. Sevens, like League, is all about try scoring, which is like saying cricket is all about sixes and great catches. In Sevens or League, one missed tackle generally means a try, and I'm afraid that appears superficial to me.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Can I have a whinge about the farce which is the Championship in England?

It's a twelve team league, so in the 'Regular Season' each team has 22 fixtures. They then divide into three four-team pools for the 'Playoffs'. The top eight teams form two 'Promotion Pools' features the top four teams, and the 'Relegation Pool' has the bottom four. Once the six pool games are completed, the top two teams in each of the Promotion pools advance to the 'Championship Semi Final' which is a two-legged tie. The winners of these games advance to the 'Championship Final', another two-legged game. The winner of the final will be promoted to the Premier League, so long as their ground measures up against various minimum standards.

Does anyone else think that this is ridiculous? Perhaps I'm biased because I support Bristol (who ran away with the Regular Season league) but this seems to be needless Americanization (sic) in pursuit of a bit of "excitement" which apparently can't be generated by appreciating the sport for what it is. If Bristol stuff up the semi or the final (it's happened before) I shall be even more annoyed than I am now.

Do other countries have this kind of lunacy in their lower divisions?
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Un-frickin'-believable! We go 0-17 up, 9-17 at halftime, and finish 45-24 down.
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
I watched it IF. You were powned. Great game of rugby for the neutral and, for a retired loosehead, the second half had a couple of belting tries.
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
In the final leg of the World Sevens Series in London, Fiji beat Samoa in the final, but New Zealand clinched the series by taking the third spot.
Final standings after nine weekends of glorious running rugby:

code:

---

Series Standings
                TEAM	        PTS
1		NEW ZEALAND	167
2		FIJI	        161
3		ENGLAND       	135
4		SAMOA         	133
5		SOUTH AFRICA	125

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
:Bump:

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A disturbingly apt term. Most of the early season news has been about players retiring from the game with persistent injuries. I suppose this is that time of year, but it shows how the game has changed. Players are bigger and stronger, the game is faster so the contact is harder. I quit when I still hurt on the morning of the next match. I doubt players are ever pain-free now.
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Half-way though the [southern hemisphere] rugby championship, and the all Blacks have won all their games, though none of them by runaway scores. Argentina have won none, but they have been very close on each occasion , not least when South Africa only just managed a late draw against them.
So the competition is close, which makes it worth watching, even if (heresy?) there is a lot more movement in the rugby league (ARL) finals which come to a climax this month.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Good riddance ... I have seen very little evidence that you're any use in a rugby team anyway
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :
 
There was an article in the Weekend Australian with those sentiments, Zappa. The author thought Quade Cooper unsuitable to say what he did. BTW, have you changed your allegiance? I always thought you were an All Blacks supporter.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
No change of allegiance here! I felt for the Wallabies, and had hoped that they might make a good showing agianst the Bopks last night. In the end I only saw the last seven minutes - including another Boks try to Habana - but it looked like a debacle. Quade has been even mouthier this past week and may well be right that there is disarray in the Wallabies camp, though I'd believe it more if I heard it from someone like Sharpe.

I feel for Deans - it's never really worked out for him. Ironically I think he has given Quade Cooper far too many chances. Biting the hand that feeds, et cetera. The only good point about Cooper was the moments in which ther commentators managed to say "Hooper to Cooper to Ashley-Cooper" (though that presupposes Quade ever managed to get a pass away!).

Kurtley Beale had some good moments and some awful moments last night. I dodn't think anyone else could claim any good moments.

From what I can read the Blacks were in devastating form in La Plata
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :
 
Some of the commentariat - including Mark Ella - think Quade Cooper needs to be dropped from the Wallabies until he gets himself together. I think the All Blacks are going from strength to strength. Given the Oz Rugby setup and the number of Super Rugby games the Wallabies individually play as against the All Blacks I think we're on a hiding to nothing. Australian Rugby administators appear to have sold our national interest out to make money. Until that changes I think we're done.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I read with dismay some of the scores from the weekend's European club matches. The only utterly one-sided game in the Heineken Cup was at Edinburgh where the home side lost 45-0 to Saracens. OK, Saracens are a mean outfit, but to get no points whatsoever is a sorry state of affairs.

In the Amlin Cup things were far worse: This weekend we have seen Grenoble, Bayonne, Perpignan, Stade Francais and Worcester Warriors put 59, 71, 79, 68 and 85 points respectively over their opponents.

Over the years some internationals have ended with near cricket scores. England scored over 120 points against Rumania, New Zealand have scored more than 100 a few times as well as thrahing England by about seventy a while back.

I don't see the point of these one-sided affairs, so I propose that, as in boxing, the referee should be authorised to stop the contest when it is clear that there is no contest. If one side is doing all the tackling and does not have the ball Rugby is a bloody awful game to play and a boring one to watch. Maybe as soon as one side gets a fifty point lead they should all shaake hands and have an early bath.

What do you think?
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
This Saturday, my arm was twisted to act as stand-in coach for the five-a-side soccer team that some of the kids in my wife's second grade class play in.

They were not very good, and were very quickly several goals down without even coming close to scoring themselves. At half time, the coach of the opposition asked if we wanted to play with an extra player to try and even things up a bit. I politely thanked him for the offer but declined. Back on our sideline, I was quietly muttering about the patronizing little so-and-so for a good few minutes.

My point is, taking a hiding is sometimes what sport is about. Unfortunate for those on the losing team, but a fact of life. As far as I can see, the only reason to stop a game is if there is a significant safety risk to the players. So in the case of rugby, I could image that a referee could call for uncontested scrums if one team is losing so badly that it puts them at risk of serious injury. Or even (possibly) if one team is so much bigger and stronger than the other that tackling and rucking become dangerous. But the chances of the latter case happening in professional rugby is essentially zero, I'd imagine.

So no - if a competition is generating a lot of cricket scores I think it means that the qualifying structure should be looked at for future years, but I don't think that individual games should be stopped if at all possible.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
I haven't been able to watch the Northern Hemisphere games, and I support England over the Wallabies, but I am kinda hoping for an upset if only to keep rugby on the radar In Australia. It is already behind AFL, League and soccer, and may well be behind hockey.

I have never fathomed why Deans dropped Giteaux who I thought was a great attacking player, and very much more reliable than any other Wallaby back except perhaps Ioane.

Would love to see this weekend's games, but alas ...
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
I haven't been able to watch the Northern Hemisphere games, and I support England over the Wallabies, but I am kinda hoping for an upset if only to keep rugby on the radar In Australia. It is already behind AFL, League and soccer, and may well be behind hockey.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Which they did, but they were competitive throughout

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Which they did, but they were competitive throughout

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Did you think so? I admit I was dipping in and out of the match, since I was working at something - but they seemed to be doing their usual thing of being really good for the first 20 minutes, not bad for the next 20 and then losing it.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
I was well impressed with the azzurri (even though they were playing in white). I will be very interested in their matches this season.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Odd game today. Very scrappy and some timewasring from both sides. Almost no passing and all those points from penalties. Second half all about forwards. But England won.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Can someone please explain why Shane Warne is playing hooker for Wales?

AG

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England have a 14 pt advantage going into the game but given Wales' hard running backs and England's missed tackle count, a two try margin is distinctly possible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England have a 14 pt advantage going into the game but given Wales' hard running backs and England's missed tackle count, a two try margin is distinctly possible.

---

And Wales don't need to beat England by 14 points, 7 will do, I think (with Wales then winning on number of tries scored). Each point reduces England's margin and improves Wales'. A 7 point victory seems quite possible.

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You're quite right and I realised it within minutes of posting . Seven points is very possible - one Welsh back going through an over-committed English tackle and that will do.
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
I think it has to be 8 pts doesn't it? Not sure.... Not impossible but I think England will be up for it - although they'll have to play better than they did this weekend
Sadly I think they will but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Wales......well OK biting my fingernails!
My gut feeling is that we all need to get real about Italy. The days of going to Rome and coming away with cricket scores are gone. Same at club level. The Ospreys played Zebre not so long ago and they were very lucky to come away with a win......and no Zebre haven't earned their stripes Played 17 lost 17....
So what do people think of Sale beating Sarries then?
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stephen:
I think it has to be 8 pts doesn't it?

---

If Wales win by 7 then both teams will have the same points difference. I believe that the next decider is points scored, which Wales will be ahead on. So yeah, a 7 point win will be enough for them.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I live surrounded by the Welsh and the impression I get is that they don't mind England winning the championship, just so long as they don't complete a triple crown, and hence a grand slam, in Cardiff! That would hurt much, much more.

FWIW, I reckon it will be all or nothing: either England will be goaded by Sunday's poor performance into a win, or a big enough Welsh one to enable them to retain the title.
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 
I think I might be channeling Wood.

If Wales beat England by 7 points, then the competition will be decided on number of tries scored, which currently stands 7 to 5 in Wales' favour. So unless there is a really bizarre result, with England finding the ability to score tries (which seems to have escaped them for the last few games) while still losing by 7 points then a 7 point win by Wales will be enough.

In the event of Wales winning by 7 points, but England scoring two more tries than Wales, so both teams have the same number of competition points (8 points from 4 wins), the same match-point difference and the same number of tries scored then the Championship is shared between them.

Personally I fancy Wales. England's position in the table flatters them. They were lucky to get the result against Italy, and were fortunate that France turned up in self-destruct mode.
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Wow,what a game!
I'm speechless - and breathless!
Wales 30 England 3

Think we've won the Championship......
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I half-expected Wales to triumph but not by 30-3!

Wales concentrated on wrecking England's scrum and succeeded. England missed tackles, and with no scrum ball, lots of penalties against them, only one side was ever in it.

I worry for the Lions this summmer, as they have selected Andy Farrell as defensive coach, and he has done that job for England.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
What a match, what a Welsh side, what a result!!!
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
I must admit I was hoping for a 10 point lead, as it wasn't enough just to win the game but if anyone had mentioned a 27 pt lead I'd have laughed at them


I feel sorry though for Sioni not only because his side loss but also I have a feeling his Welsh friends are probably going to be unbearable for a while! However as a Hell host I know he'll cope...

Great game and a very good advert for rugby I'd have said
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stephen:



I feel sorry though for Sioni not only because his side loss but also I have a feeling his Welsh friends are probably going to be unbearable for a while! However as a Hell host I know he'll cope...

---

I'm hidden away to some extent and of my ten colleagues only two are Welsh! I doubt they will be quiet about it, but there are eight English on the team, plus one South African who will probably be worst of all!

[ 16. March 2013, 21:06: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Both sides certainly took a battering . That was really physical stuff, and fortunately didn't boil over too much.

The score line didn't reflect the effort England put in. As you say something was badly wrong with the scrummaging, we might as well have just given Wales the ball as give away 3 points every time.

But yeah , well and truly beat. There's no other way of dressing it up.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
In the after meeting fellowship today I was truly ashamed to be an Englishman abroad (OK, in Wales, but it feels foreign). The whinging about the ref by my compatriots was appalling! Steve Walsh isn't my favourite official - he's a pernickety sod - but if he tells you to stand here, engage here and do so straight and level, one cannot be surprised to get pinged if you don't!

I don't recall England having anyone yellow carded. That would be our sole achievement
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
I was fairly sure we'd win and hopeful that we'd get the points for the championship, but didn't expect the hammering that ensued. I was at my parents' in Cardiff for the match then caught the train back to Bristol. The carriage was about 50 50 Welsh English and there was much singing and teasing. I suspect a similar mix of football fans would have been less good natured.

Carys
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
I wasn't nearly so relaxed about it Carys - in fact I thought it could have gone either way. With us playing at home with the passionate Millenium crowd I thought we might have had a chance of winning but not by enough points. I was hoping we'd win by 10 points but felt I was fantasising!!
Floating on air at the moment......you don't have to drink much to get drunk
I was very pleased to see that the vestments were red on Sunday - for Passiontide
I approve of that!
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
Got to half time and was able to breathe again!That was an amazing 2nd half, fair play - in fact, tidy!
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
On The Stupidest Thing in Sport thread The Great Gumby suggested that the current state of the scrum in Rugby Union is the second-worst (after the designated hitter rule in baseball). On the BBC website, former England hooker Brian Moore gives chapter and verse on why it doesn't work.

Here's Sioni recipe for scrums in the 21st century (and yes, I have played there, at tighthead prop, which is the fun position in the front row).

- The "hit" must go. It's dangerous and, as Brian Moore says, makes it impossible to referee every other aspect of the scrum.
- The front rows must engage and wait. They must be at the line determined by the referee and must be straight and level.
- The remaining ten players (the second rows and back rows) then bind on in the approved manner. Again, the scrum must not move.
- The referee stands on the open side of the scrum, with the touch-judge looking down the line of the scrum on the blind side. Either official can call when a law is contravened, such as the ball going in crooked, one side shoving early or someone binding illegally.
- Now the scrummage starts. Better strength and technique (of teams and individuals) will still be rewarded and IMHO, it will be clearer to everyone what is going on and why referees make the decisions they do. Oh, and it will probably be safer.

What does the team think?
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I've never played front row, so I probably don't have the technical understanding to comment. But I will say two general things which is that as they stand, scrums are a complete mess so something should be done. Then, for me, it would be a shame to lose the combative nature of the hit. My gut feeling is that most collapses happen after the hit, not during so I'm not sure it's the most pressing safety issue. But I'm happy to leave this one to the experts. And I certainly appreciate Moore's comments on the issue.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Front-row fiasco #3

I was at "Judgement Day" earlier, a double-header at Cardiff's magnificent Milleneum Stadium, featuring Newport Gwent Dragons v (Llanelli) Scarlets and Ospreys v Blues. A couple of good, but different games. Newport didn't get the drubbing some feared.

Scarlets and Ospreys won so the West Walians have bragging rights this year, but the most notable factor was that in the Dragons v Scarlets games the scrums generally ended satisfactorily (ie, the scrum restarted the game) and I don't recall any penalties from scrums. In the Ospreys v Blues game it was another story. Adam Jones, who made a mess of England's scrum last week started off in the same destructive manner but after 20 minutes one of the locks was replaced by a no 8/flank forward; a big lump, but no second-row, so I don't think there was the same shove coming through The second half was more competitive but both sides tried so hard to get the "hit" as the ball was put in, that scrums collapsed as a consequence, penalties were common and at one time it too nearly three minutes to get to a post-scrum phase of play after the sides formed up for the scrum!

Different referees of course, and the sides in the first match could just have agreed beforehand "Look, no funny stuff, we've got a paying public here".
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Well Nigel is a spectator sport in his own right I think!

I saw the Glasgow v Ospreys match and the scrums were a diabolical shambles

I think you're right about the hit, Sioni. Seeing collapsed scrum after collapsed scrum in a game is a real pain in the proverbial
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The 2013 Lione Squad has been named
FIFTEEN WELSH PLAYERS
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
About right. I'm surprised Tom Youngs is in, as Ken Owens is more experienced as a hooker and is a great replacement with 25 minutes left. Two of the locks are injury prone (Gray and O'Connell) and there isn't anyone who looks like a third no 10.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
SS - I agree: they should have put in James Hook because he can be used as a kicking utility back.

As for O'Connell - he could be a liability if he gives in and punches someone (not an unknown occurrence).

Tom Youngs is in for purely political reasons - they need the English RU to support the Lions.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

As for O'Connell - he could be a liability if he gives in and punches someone (not an unknown occurrence).

---

quote:

---

The 2013 Lions Squad has been named
FIFTEEN WELSH PLAYERS

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The 2013 Lions Squad has been named
THREE NZ PLAYERS, a Tongan, a Samoan and a KIWI COACH


 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
So the first test is this Saturday. Do the Lions have a chance? After some comfortable wins earlier on in the tour against meagre opposition they lost 14-12 midweek, which doesn't bode well. Bob Dwyer, former Australia coach says the Lions are cheats. What do the assembled Ship folks think?
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Typical Aussie gamesmanship, nothing more.
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
As usual, the game will be decided by the scrums and rucks. That is, who wins the referee's mental toss of the coin when he decides which side to give the penalty to, as under strict RU rules he could award a penalty to either side at almost every scrum and at every second ruck. And at this level, the penalty kickers don't miss many.

But I'll be watching (on TV) anyway.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
And at this level, the penalty kickers don't miss many.

---

Don't they?
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
What Tukai said. The Lions gave too many penalties away and if you do that there's no point arguing with the referee (As England found in the Six Nations) because he won't change his mind (as England found in the Six Nations).

I've still got doubts about Sam Warburton - Tipuric would be better suited to a game with faster rucks, which reduces the penalty count. Mike Phillips was pretty ordinary and I don't think Vunipola is up to the job. Somehow Corbisiero has to do 80 minutes!
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The Lions gave too many penalties away...

---

In fairness, I thought a few of them were a bit harsh. There was one in the second half in particular where a Lions loose forward came right through a ruck, claimed the ball, and got pinged for entering at the side. Wrong decision, I thought and I told the referee so (via the psychic link in my laptop) in no uncertain terms.
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Although the final score did depend on penalty kicks (both those taken and those missed- oh Dear!), the two star wingers (North and Folau) made the game worth watching. Predictions in some UK media that Folau would be a weak link were somewhat off.

And spare a thought (and prayer) for the unfortunate Christian Lealei'ifano. Last season he was injured just when he was ready to make his test debut, and this season he got on the field but was carried off injured in the first minute.
 

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Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 
The silence on here is deafening! Taking a bit of effort to come to terms with?
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Not really. Just sets up a great finish in Sydney next week.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
The silence on here is deafening! Taking a bit of effort to come to terms with?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patdys:
Just leaving Melbourne. Lots of supporters, still happy, still raucous but in a friendly way. Lion supporters. All the Aussies are in bed . 5 am btw.

---

Lightweights.
 

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Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
Hey, I didn't say their own beds...
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
It's the Aussie supporters who are in bed. The players (or at least some notorious ones among them) are probably still out on the town boozing.

Defence on both sides was so strong that there was hardly any running with the ball. And the shape of the game was again determined by 'toss of the coin' penalties at scrums and rucks. The best I can say as a spectator is that the game was as closely contested as teh scoreline suggests.

Now to watch the World Cup Sevens, where we can guarantee to see players run more than 3 metres without spilling the ball. Go , Fiji, go!
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Is it just possible that the Lions will go into the decider without Brian O'Driscoll? He is hardly the weakest link but he has given away more penalties than before and I think the Aussies have worked him out.

If Jamie Roberts is fit I'd start with him and Jonathan Davies and then I really don't know who to have as backup! There are cases to be made for Tuilagi (power), BOD (class) and Twelvetrees (unknown quantity).

Shame about Sam Warburton but I'd love to see Tipuric start and here's hoping Corbisiero is fit - his absence probably cost England the Grand Slam.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
You Beauties! Gatland gets it right, BoD is not God and what a difference it makes when scrummaging can be done properly.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Northern Hemisphere refereeing!
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Northern Hemisphere refereeing!

---

quote:

---

Campo, what's the score?
Campo, Campo what's the score?

---

 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
The silence on here is deafening! Taking a bit of effort to come to terms with?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
A new English season is kicking off, and Bristol have not only hired a high profile coach (Andy Robinson), but are tipped to secure promotion back to the Premiership. I'll believe it when it happens, but maybe that'll convince me to pay a bit more attention to them this year!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
A new English season is kicking off, and Bristol have not only hired a high profile coach (Andy Robinson), but are tipped to secure promotion back to the Premiership. I'll believe it when it happens, but maybe that'll convince me to pay a bit more attention to them this year!

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quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:
Is there room among all this talk of Union to discuss the League Word Cup?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
And I'm rather of the opinion that since Union has been professional it has become more like League.

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As scrums are more tightly regulated and the ball is suposed to be recycled more quicly at ruck and maul, it looks more like RL than it used to, but Union is still a more varied game: you don't get a successful side consisting of fifteen guys all 6'3" and 16 stone, which can be basis of a good RL team as there is no particular need for line-out or front-row expertise.

btw, I wonder if Italy's win over England in the RL World Cup warm-up will inspire their Union counterparts?
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Cardiff Blues 19 - Toulon 15

Of course, the Welsh clubs can't possibly be up-to-standard for the Heineken Cup...
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
And I'm rather of the opinion that since Union has been professional it has become more like League.

---

At its free flowing best (as with the All Blacks this season) rugby union is a pleasure to watch, but when it degenerates in to endless "pick and go" it looks like the boring bash and barge of old-style RL, without the compensations of a 10 m separation between the sides (which gives some room for a runner to wind up) or a 6-tackle rule (which forces some attempt at constructive play).
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
50 years and one day ago Newport beat the All Blacks.

It's still known as "Glyn Davidge's Match", from that man's efforts, mostly at the bottom of rucks preventing the New Zealanders getting their ball quickly, if at all. Now it would be penalised, then you got kicked, raked and rucked back with the ball.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The Springboks are now training at the University of Glamorgan's sports ground in Trefforest.

I'm told they look to be in "awesome" form (apologies for word - blame 19 year-old gibbering son who was there) and were also very good at mixing with the students, posing for photos, etc.
 

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Posted by Celtic Knotweed (# 13008) on :
 
Well, that was an interesting match. I honestly thought we were going to lose to Japan at one point .

With the latest changes to the scrum rules, it was amusing to hear the commentators deciding that none of the modern hookers actually knew how to hook the ball. Wonder how long before the next set of changes?
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Celtic Knotweed:
Well, that was an interesting match. I honestly thought we were going to lose to Japan at one point .

With the latest changes to the scrum rules, it was amusing to hear the commentators deciding that none of the modern hookers actually knew how to hook the ball. Wonder how long before the next set of changes?

---

In the Good Old Days one would find that tight-head props could usually hook better than hookers. Yes, it's illegal but, if you're desperate and scrummaging well enough to do so on one leg for a second or two, worth a gamble.

Maybe Dan Cole and Adam Jones could enlighten us?
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Oh Wales - what happened?

I know the 'boks were played in because of the different season, and I know they played dirty, and I know losing 3 key players in the first half-hour is bad but

WHAT WERE YOU DOING?
 

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Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :
 
It was the blind French referee!
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Anyone else watch the England game today? After 15 minutes I honestly thought we would be completely obliterated, so England's comeback was very credit-worthy indeed, IMNVHO.

Having said that, New Zealand weren't the same team in attack after Dan Carter went off. Equally, England got noticeably worse when they started making substitutions in the pack. Definite issue in strength in depth there. But it was a very enjoyable game to watch and quite encouraging for England's rebuilding project.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Normal service restored.

We beat the Pumas handsomely; No 1 son says we could have scored more...

Cardiff is a happy place to be tonight
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Good performance by Wales. A win in an autumn international is rare and this was a big one, more convincing than England's.

I agree about England after the substitutions. The front row was much weaker and less capable around the field and the all-round usefulness of Launchbury is now obvious. If he was a New Zealander, he would be an All Black. All those England injuries demonstrated a problem whenever you play the ABs: not only do they make very few errors, but in every contact situation they inflict as much pain as is possible within the rules.
 

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Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
So which of the home nations has come out best from the Autumn Internationals (Scotland v South Africa is all but over)? How do things look ahead of the Six Nations? My impression is that it's probably between England and Wales again.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
It does look between Wales and England. If Wales beat Tonga and Australia they will be ahead, if they run Australia close they will be level but should Wales be trounced by Australia or not beat Tonga handsomely, they are behind England. Scotland were brave as ever but the Saffies looked very mean. Ireland will just have to admit that the old gaurd is now too old and have a couple of painful years while their younger players get used to international rugby.

In any event, England will host Wales in this season's Six Nations, which ought to make a difference to that particular contest.
 

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Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
The great unknown is always which France will turn up which can add an element of surprise, but I would agree that Scotland, Ireland (and Italy) are not looking very hopeful.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
The great unknown is always which France will turn up which can add an element of surprise, but I would agree that Scotland, Ireland (and Italy) are not looking very hopeful.

---

I didn't mention France for that very reason. They only lost at Twickenham last season thanks to bizarre substitutions! They can go toe-to-toe with England up front and they are far better behind the scrum.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Wales begin the 2014 Six Nations at home to Italy so we should get off to a decent start.

France? Well, they've got England in Paris same day: if the French win then they'll be in contention.

Agree about Ireland, they've got a tricky season or two but don't write them off completely, they'll still be capable of pulling off a blinding performance against all the odds.

England? On paper should be solid but they weren't convincing against the Pumas, nor against the Blacks. I know the rugby correspondents are all starting to rate them but I think they're being a little over-hyped.

Remember last season? All they had to do was draw in Cardiff? Simple, eh.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Blimey!

Ireland have just gone in at half-time 22-7 UP against the All Blacks!
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
...so Jonathan Sexton misses a penalty. the All Blacks have desperation to aid them and they score to go level at 22 points each.

But then the some Irish loons decide to start towards the kicker before he moves on the conversion - which he initially misses - do the referee has no choice but to let him have another go. Which he puts between the posts.

New Zealand 24 - 22 Ireland
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Moral: as has been the case for as long as I can remember, the All Blacks will keep coming at you not just until the hooter sounds , but right up to the final whistle.

(Incidentally Rugby Union is the only game I know of in which these two events can be so far apart.)
 

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Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
not just until the hooter sounds , but right up to the final whistle.

(Incidentally Rugby Union is the only game I know of in which these two events can be so far apart.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
But even that isn't a flawless approach these days, since (if I understand correctly) the referee can stop the watch while a player is injured or if there are disciplinary issues to be dealt with.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
But even that isn't a flawless approach these days, since (if I understand correctly) the referee can stop the watch while a player is injured or if there are disciplinary issues to be dealt with.

---

Well that was sort of my point, given that (for the uninitiated) there are only 40 minutes in each half. Once you get out to beyond 50 minutes, you can be pretty confident it's nearly the end!

---

Basically the rule is that if you have a clock, it has to be synchronised to any television coverage (including the 4th official if any for replays), and the referees watch. Timings are dictated by the ref starting and stopping his watch. Outside the Premiership, where there is (usually, unless you're appearing on Sky) no video equipped TMO and everything stands on what the ref does or doesn't see at the time, it's often cheaper to just not have a clock, rather than paying for a very clever one....
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The house is in deep gloom.

No 2 child came home to watch the match with me - and we lost.
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
Ok, I only saw very brief highlights, but how was that try NOT a forward pass? Might as well be playing American football.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Ok, I only saw very brief highlights, but how was that try NOT a forward pass? Might as well be playing American football.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
That Wales v Australia clash was heck of a game though .

This tournament has brought back the open and break-through play that seemed to have left the game in recent years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Ok, I only saw very brief highlights, but how was that try NOT a forward pass? Might as well be playing American football.

---

Rugby Union appears to have adopted the idea that if the passer's hands are not facing ahead of a line across the field, then any pass is OK. That allows fancy-dan finger work, handing the ball to a player as he runs past you if you put the ball straight into his hands and the so-called 'momentum' pass on the basis that if the passer is going forward the ball is likely too. Horseshit I say, forward is forward. If the ball moves closer to the opponent's try-line it's a forward pass.

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quote:

---

A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

---

That is all it says. No mention of relative motion, arm movement, sleight of hand or anything. For me that is 100% clear. "That" pass, by the definition of the IRB's own laws, was forward. No try.

Ah, but then you get the folks trying to make the law more understandable. This following clip was made, it seems, by the IRB itself and made available by a refs organisation:
http://www.therefzone.co.uk/interview.asp?trzid=9 .

It transpires that a ball travelling towards the opponents' dead-ball line only appears to be going forward by virtue of the fact that the ground beneath it is not moving forward at the same speed as the player who made the pass. Or something.

Either apply the laws or change them I say.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
It's clearly a question of the frame of reference you choose to use. 'Backwards' defined in the frame of reference moving at the same speed as the player who gives the pass may appear 'forwards' in the frame of reference of an observer who is stationary with respect to the pitch. Clearly the IRB should hire a physicist to write their rules for them.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
It's clearly a question of the frame of reference you choose to use. 'Backwards' defined in the frame of reference moving at the same speed as the player who gives the pass may appear 'forwards' in the frame of reference of an observer who is stationary with respect to the pitch. Clearly the IRB should hire a physicist to write their rules for them.

---

Oh goodie, That'll bugger up the knock-on too! If I am moving forwards and knock a ball forward *but* knock it forwards less than I advance, has it actually been knocked on?
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
And, our prop didn't kick their flanker in the face, it was the flanker that headbutted the prop's foot.
 

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Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
poor old refs are damned if they do and if they don't though given they can't be everywhere at once it's almost an argument for not letting tv cameras anywhere near live sport.

I have to say that one of the nice things about following a team on a (hopefully) brief sojourn away from the Premiership this season has been the general lack of tv cameras and hence video refereeing, allowing us to adopt the old simple pleasures of screaming at the ref for redress that never comes....

Having said that, if you think it's a problem in Union, it's nothing to the situation in League. At Oxford RL last summer we might as well have come with pre-printed cards saying "Forward Ref!" to hold up and save our voices...
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
poor old refs are damned if they do and if they don't though given they can't be everywhere at once it's almost an argument for not letting tv cameras anywhere near live sport.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
poor old refs are damned if they do and if they don't though given they can't be everywhere at once it's almost an argument for not letting tv cameras anywhere near live sport.

---

The IRB sanctioned the video in Imaginary Friend's link. That and similar "rulings" actually make the referees work harder than it need be!

---

'Sanctioned by the IRB...' As a warning that you are in for a large dose of confusion and lack of clarity and general needless sodding-about, that has to be the Rugby equivalent of 'Published by Kevin Mayhew', doesn't it?

[ 05. December 2013, 05:05: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
Fair point about standing, although I did preceed that with "I've also." The two are linked though I think, especially as what the teams certainly in the championship seem to be doing is transferring the aggression that they used to get from the hit into the first 10 seconds of the scrum proper - before the ball's been put in.

The effect of that, coupled with the fact that hookers still haven't got to grips with actually having to hook again now (and some of the 20 year olds have never played under rules where they have to....)* means that scrums are wheeling and collapsing all over the shop. I totally get that standing up is a penalty infraction stemming from failure/inability to contest the scrum properly, but it's now happening so frequently that for whatever reason I think the new rules are contributing to it somehow. Even in the Premiership the difference from last season to this is startling.

*Admittedly, not being able to hook is something we can do something about, but it is going to take time.
 

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Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
For clarity, I suppose what I'm saying is that the new process is leading to more dangerous scrums, rather than the new process in and of itself being more dangerous. The close range hit alone ought to be safer than the old engagement, but I think it makes the scrums more unstable overall.

Possibly this is something that will decrease as the new laws bed in, but it certainly isn't pretty at the moment.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Warren Gatland - Coach of the Year

Bring on 6 Nations 2014
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
And the Six Nations is here again!

Despite a fightback England were just too poor in the first-half to deserve to win. OK, they had some bad luck, but if people put kicks into your territory these things happen and if your scrummage is dysfunctional, it's a hard day for your no 8 and scrum-half.

England's substitutions, especially behind the scrum, were weird. Quite why Nowell was withdrawn and Burrell moved to the wing in his place baffled me: hands up everyone who was surprised when the French outflanked our three-quarter line which consisted of three centres and a full-back? Oh, with a crocked Owen Farrell in support.

At least Courtney Lawes looked international class at times. He needed to be replaced though - I don't think he's fit enough: bags of strength, but he can't do the mileage.

Just as England did nothing in the first-half, Wales did little in the second. If they do that against anyone else, even Scotland, they could be in serious trouble.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Both matches today definitely Not What Was Expected. Italy do seem to be an improving side. France had the home advantage, but they showed from the off that they were going to play an attacking game.

I would like to think Scotland will similarly upset expectations tomorrow. I would like to think that, but I don't.

[ 01. February 2014, 21:11: Message edited by: Firenze ]
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I think Mr Gatland will be giving the lads a little talk about tightening up.

Anyone else think the new rules about binding at the scrum seem to be causing more problems than they're (supposedly) solving?

I do think the TV official might have noticed that the first Italian try came off an incredibly forward pass...

Still, we won!
 

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Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

Anyone else think the new rules about binding at the scrum seem to be causing more problems than they're (supposedly) solving?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

Anyone else think the new rules about binding at the scrum seem to be causing more problems than they're (supposedly) solving?

---

See my posts five or so up from this...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

I do think the TV official might have noticed that the first Italian try came off an incredibly forward pass...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:


Also noted that the new scrum rules are exposing a lack of basic scrummaging skill - hookers unable to hook, etc.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
In what some may think a rare display of common sense one of the bravest rugby players of modern times has quit.

Andy Hazell has retired on medical advice due to concussion. God knows how many knocks he has taken in an top-class rugby career of seventeen years, mostly from players bigger than himself. I hope he's OK and that others take notice of what he has done now and says in the future.

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• Any time Scotland get possession they must either knock on or forward pass (forward enough for it to count as forward).
• Scrum to England
• Penalty to Scotland

I think Scotland should be capable of this.

Enough of those penalties should be convertable into 3 points.

[ 04. February 2014, 19:01: Message edited by: Jonah the Whale ]
 

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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
27:6 -I don't need to say anymore
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
27:6 -I don't need to say anymore

---

I don't think I have seen a French rugby team so grumpy! You wouldn't know that Wales were without their first-choice lock forwards and had a wing playing in the centre. France on the other hand looked clueless at half-back - decent players but a poor combination.

If (and this is a big if) England beat Ireland tomorrow, the championship will be wide open but I make Ireland favourites, even at Twickenham.

In the other fixture Scotland play Italy in the annual Wooden Spoon match.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Thank goodness!

Normal service resumed.

French were grumpy until they reached the bars afterwards - #1 son tells me Cardiff was very lively last night.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I expect the Irish are pretty down now. The national side lost to England by three points and London Irish have just lost at home to Leicester by five, having missed two very kickable penalties and butchered a try opening with two minutes to go.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I expect the Irish are pretty down now.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Disappointing result and it shows what depth England have, but having seen it I wasn't surprised at Yarde's yellow card. Others on both sides could have been carded at other times, but that's international rugby.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Despite their returning stars England will be playing against a NZ side that are far more together than they were at kick-off this morning.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Anyone else notice that the summer tours have started.

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That would be the winter tours

Funnily enough I thought 28-27 was close to a reasonable reflection on a game that the ABs really only broke open for about 20 minutes - when Smith, Smith and Smith really got their pace on.

The last try will annoy the ABs and I reckon Steve Hansen will have given them a bollocking.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Just for the record, I am fed up losing by narrow margins.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by me me me:
a game that the ABs really only broke open for about 20 minutes

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
looks like you might not have your heart in your mouth this time, Sioni ...

---

My heart was sunk after about twenty minutes.

I was afraid we'd get tonked in one of the games and our no-show for the first-half made sure of that! No that our absence was all our fault: the AB's don't want you to play. They have been the best defensive team for as long as I can remember, making fewer errors, unforced or otherwise, than anyone.

It's good to see some players back from the cold, and Cipriani appears to have his head switched on now.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Marland Yarde had a great second half ... you're right, though ... somehow England went missing in the first 30 - from the bad kick-off on
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
The final of the Super 15 was a very good game to watch, with both sides running the ball at most of the opportunities they got. Two good tries apiece. The Canterbury Crusaders didn't wake up for the first 15 minutes, but which time they were trailing by 14-0. But (as you expect from a top NZ side) they came back strongly and had got into the lead by 32-30 with 4 minutes to go. But uncharacteristically the failed to shut it down and a counterattack from a misplaced kick saw the NSW Waratahs get close enough to kick a last-minute penalty to take the game by 33-32.

And about time, as NSW have been stacked with internationals for years, but have previously failed to gel as a team and this is their first premiership in this comp.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
First Bledisloe: a grinding unattractive game that I felt the wallabies dominated - but the whistle of Jaco Peyper dominating - not, most of the time, without good cause.

Against some complacent kiwi expectations the Wallabies turned up with an outstanding front five - Slipper for me was, with Israel Folau, man of the match - the latter proof that occasionally league players really can play rugby (I don't rate Sonny Bill Williams that hot). The ABs spent 20 minutes of the game with players sin-binned, and are going to have to make adjustments to their handling of the ruck in particular if that's not to be a season-long pattern.

The ABs had one or two moments, but squandered them. the Wobblies had far more, but threw away a couple of 3 pointers which could have saved the game - and one they did take Kurtly Beale hit the upright. Scrambling AB defence saved the day for NZ a few times, and Julian Savea (probably the best of the ABs) finally repaid that 1994 tackle of Gregan on Wilson with a massive game saving hit on a rampant McCabe.

Probably a game to forget in terms of spectacle, but the ABs tilt at a world record 18 straight wins is over, deservedly, and the Wallabies probably deserved better than a 12-12 (penalties only) draw.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Congratulations to England's women for winning the Rugby World Cup in France on Sunday, and a big thank you to Ireland for efectively putting New Zealand out.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Congratulations to England's women for winning the Rugby World Cup in France on Sunday, and a big thank you to Ireland for efectively putting New Zealand out.

---

 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
I was worried in advance of the second Bledisloe test that we might see a re-run of what happened in the England -NZ series. In the first test, the All Blacks play below par (for them) and are almost beaten, but then sweep back with their 'A-game' for a massive win the second test.

And that is indeed what happened to Australia tonight. The ABs blew them away with power, pace and relentless backing-up at speed , both in attack and defence. And that's even with McCaw in the sin -bin for 10 minutes of the first half.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Well done Wallabies over the 'Boks - couldn't watch that one. The ABs sort of neutralized and then ground down a dogged Pumas side in wet conditions ... Beauden Barrett showed explosive pace at 10 but had a shocker at the place kick (one from five) ... Julian Savea was deadly and deserved his two tries; he was best on field. Dagg on his home turf was a superb territory gainer with his massive kicks almost reaching our back yard (we live close to the park). The hidden work though was the forwards, Captain McCaw as ever leading a tough crew who in the end wore down the mammoth South American machine.
 

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Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
To a dank Billesley Common on Friday night to watch Moseley come up just short against the rugby-club-formally-known-as-Leeds. Still bodes well for the season though. A great club, very much on the up - and will generally send you home smiling even when they lose.

In other news, London Welsh, my other club, are not only still looking for a win but also for a way to not get hammered every week.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:

In other news, London Welsh, my other club, are not only still looking for a win but also for a way to not get hammered every week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
So who has got their tickets for the RWC already?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
Two other reasons why NZ are so hard to beat are:
(1) They nearly always make you pay for your mistakes.
and (2) they never give up and are still running strongly until the final whistle has sounded- not just the hooter. Witness the win they "stole" from Australia last month with a try just as the hooter sounded.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
Two other reasons why NZ are so hard to beat are:
(1) They nearly always make you pay for your mistakes.
and (2) they never give up and are still running strongly until the final whistle has sounded- not just the hooter. Witness the win they "stole" from Australia last month with a try just as the hooter sounded.

---

More seriously though (than my previous) I thought one thing stood out in the ABs performance, and that was their ability to adapt. It seemed to me that they came out with a different game approach after half time, shutting down some of the things England were doing well (not least their kick offs). Then when the rain came they adapted more rapidly than England, keeping the ball close, shutting down any risks of slippery passes. Finally, when they were down to fourteen - even before the card came out, McCaw seemed to be calling in a new strategy, and potential gaps immediately closed.

Against Scotland I would imagine Dan the Man will get a lot of game time. I hope they bring Ben Smith into fullback - I'm not convinced Israel Dagg is firing on all cylinders, and I think Ben Smith has some outstanding abilities to attack from deep defensive positions. Conrad Smith has gone home but Ryan Crotty will bring some pretty serious talent to the midfield. Sonny Bill is warming to the task at last - he's never completely convinced me before, but this time round is looking like an All Black.

And then there's Savea.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Rejoice, Rejoice!

Wales beat the 'Boks.

Not a brilliant game. We need to be more clinical and get the ball over the try line but a WIN nonetheless.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
A scrappy and bitty game with SA playing rather negatively, I thought ('jump on them and then kick for distance', and a rather finicky referee who seemed to get very worked up about fairly minor knock-ons (knocks-on?) but didn't appear to be too bothered about the odd tackle at throat height.
But still- we won! (Also journey from my seat back to new flat took literally five minutes!)

[ 29. November 2014, 21:27: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Rejoice indeed. The BBC website says 'gutsy' Wales and that had a lot to do with it. They fronted up to the 'Boks.

Moreover, Wales did it without emptying the bench. They brought on just one substitute, Scott Williams, which must have maintained cohesion and morale compared to some games that get very loose from the hour mark. I wonder if other sides will now look at this?

Oh, and England didn't do so badly either. Our forwards look good, and Lawes did a lot of good things without giving too many pens away; we just need judgment and penetration in midfield.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
posted by Albertus

quote:

---

journey from my seat back to new flat took literally five minutes!

---

Cathedral Road, Albertus?

I've always hankered after a flat in one of the blocks beside the Arms Park...

Son #1 said the atmosphere was very tense in the last 5 minutes but is now feeling much more relaxed, if the sound of drunken singing and breaking glass in the background when he just called is anything to go by
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
<bump> for Bath's performance at Toulouse where they won! Not only did they win but they did so by 35-15.

The only sour note was some football-style "simulation" by Yoann Huget. It was almost enough to make one hope he gets stuck at the bottom of a ruck, ideally against the All Blacks.
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
Anyone apart from me disapointed that Steffon Armitage isn't in the England Six Nations squad announced today?

Call me old fashioned but I think you pick your best players and if there is a better English Flanker in the game at the moment then I've yet to see them.

To be honest, come the world cup if we don't win or come very close, then people are going to be pointing fingers not only at Stuart Lancaster, but the ERB as well.

It would have been better to include SA, tell him the jersey is yours to grab so show us what you can do in the six nations. If he does great, if he doesn't then Easter, Morgan - if he recovers in time of course - etc will step up and nobody can point fingers.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I'm disappointed too, as Armitage has overshadowed players from the Southern hemisphere and France in all the club tournaments.

The only problem is that he's playing at no 8 right now, presumably because he does the scrum work better than the far taller men who play on the flank (SA is only 5'9", Toulon's regular flanker's are both 6'5"). That would IMHO make him a candidate for England's no 8 position where Morgan is out and Billy Vunipola, while a wrecking ball in broken play, isn't so good in the tight and no one, apart from possibly Julian Salvi of Leicester, is as good at ruck-ball turnovers.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Looks like some hopefuls will get a game against Wales next month as quite a few of England's first-choice players got injured in the European Championship matches over the weekend.

It worked out pretty well for the clubs though. Four English teams through to the quarter-finals (very good), although they are up against three French teams plus Leinster, all away from home (not so good).

Come on Wales! Where are the regional teams?
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
Farrell is out. Cips to start against Wales? Hope so.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Farrell is out. Cips to start against Wales? Hope so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Are there actually fifteen fit rugby players left in England at the mo?

AG

---

From memory there were never fifteen fit players on any Wednesday through the season. By Friday, things may have changed.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
As of this morning England have 23 fit rugby players so the match is on. Rumour had it that Martin Johnson was doing circuits to provide some backup if the second-riow crisis got much worse!

How do shipmates think the matches will go? This weekends games are:

Wales v England (tonight)
Italy v Ireland (Saturday)
France v Scotland (Saturday)

I take Wales to win, partly because of England's injuries but mostly because it's in Cardiff. Ireland, despite retirements and injuries ought to be too good for Italy but Scotland just might do the job against France, who are vulnerable early in the tournament and also because, by tradition, everyone in the team is loathed by at least one other player, even if it's only by club affiliation.

[ 06. February 2015, 12:32: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Isn't it a wonderful morning to be an Englishman?!


 

---

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
Yes.

That was genuinely unexpected.
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Bloody awful morning to be Welsh, though, or at least Welsh in rugby nationality. What a shower. They had the whole nation behind them, this is the most important game of the year in many ways, they were expected to win, they took an early lead- and then they just couldn't get it together. And now all the Tims and Roddys and Ruperts and their vacuously adoring white-jerseyed blonde girlfriends are having- deservedly- a good old laugh at us.

I don't know what was sizzling in Gatland's frying pan this morning but it should have been 15 pairs of bollocks. I am thinking of supporting France for the rest of the tournament.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
It was a Very Good Evening indeed! England's rookie midfield was first rate and Wales three-quarters, all of them bigger and more experienced achieved virtually nothing all day. Warren Gatland is plain, dead wrong to put the defeat down to "Individual errors" - England changed their tactics at half-time and Wales didn't respond, which is a coaching & leadership issue.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
My house is in mourning.

The sons are distraught, going around the house muttering: 'What on earth happened?' and 'Pam y duwiau o rygbi wedi gadael ni?' (Have the gods of rugby cast us out?).
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
My house is in mourning.

The sons are distraught, going around the house muttering: 'What on earth happened?' and 'Pam y duwiau o rygbi wedi gadael ni?' (Have the gods of rugby cast us out?).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
My house is in mourning.

The sons are distraught, going around the house muttering: 'What on earth happened?' and 'Pam y duwiau o rygbi wedi gadael ni?' (Have the gods of rugby cast us out?).

---

A) you were beaten by the England B team
B) Yes. Very much so.

It was the roof that did for you of course.

Hee....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Fuck me, who writes Cipriani's scripts?

---

quote:

---

Incidentally, I agree about that try - very surprised to see it given.

AG

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Not a convincing Welsh performance but still, we won.

Think the English will have to tighten things up considerably before they meeting the Irish.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Is the dog OK?

AG

---

I see that it was described as a "Slight domestic incident". I'm not sure Castro' can be involve in a slight anything.
 

---

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
Least of all ending in that many stitches!

Adrian
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Go on, who would be a rugby ref? I can see why George Clancy made the critical decision he did at the end of the Scotland v Italy match but oh, it's tough and the margins are so tight.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
C'mon Wales! All of England hopes that you can beat Ireland on March 14th in Cardiff.

That's another way of saying that Ireland were way better than England and must be wondering how they only won the game by ten points.
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Really disappointed with England's performance against Ireland. Fair play to Ireland, they outplayed us in almost every area of the game and deserved their win. I'm only glad they didn't win it by the margin they deserved!

I think we can probably expect some changes now players are returning from injuries.

In the pack I think we'll see one of Atwood and Cruis making way for Courtney Lawes. Atwood gave away too many penalties, and what was up with the lineout? I'd also like to see someone coming in for James Haskell - again, gave away too many penalties (that was his fault of old).

I think Lancaster will stick with George Ford at half back, and I think that's the right move. Youngs looked off the boil at SH - really need him or Danny Care back to their best, otherwise Wigglesworth or even Joe Simpson will end up pushing their way in.

Three quarters I'm not sure we've got quite right yet. I wonder if Lancaster will a Twelvetrees/Joseph combo a go? I like Burrell as a player (I support Northampton after all) but think Twelvetrees might just edge him.

Back three - if Brown is fit he walks straight back in at FB. I prefer Nowell to May on the wing. Still not convinced about the selections at wing, though. Can't Ashton (or even Banahan) rediscover some of their form please?!
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Can't help but agree with you. Attwood & Kruis, especially the latter, have done well, but Haskell is a liability, especially compared to Wood who is nearly as good as Richard Hill. Ideally we need Lawes back with Parling to run the line-out.

I don't think our centres did much wrong against Ireland: their defence was superb and Watson & Nowell did all they could. Goode simply wasn't.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Did no one else watch the matches this weekend?

Thought we were a lot better against the Irish - yes, slightly lucky with the last penalty decision but before that our defence was magnificent. For those who would have preferred a more open game, so would I: but the stakes were too high for that and, to be blunt, I'm amazed there wasn't a serious brawl before the end.

England played efficiently but, God, they're dull to watch: if only the Scots had some defence and more stamina they'd be a far more entertaining prospect. As it is, they showed in the first half some real flair as a team which one hopes can be built on in time for the World Cup.

As for the match between Italy and France, I thought Eddie Butler summed it up beautifully on the Beeb when he said it was a dreadful day in Rome and left the listener to decide whether he was referring to the weather (which was appalling) or what was happening in the Stadio Olimpico.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
How can you say that England were efficient but dull? In the first quarter, and sporadically at other times England they were exactly the opposite. They were exciting, but woefully inefficient! Had they been efficient then the score would have been about 19-0 after fifteen minutes and we would have put fifty points on them (estimates range from five to six utterly butchered try-scoring chances). I reckon we have gifted the title to Ireland, again.

I'm also amazed that Wales v Ireland didn't turn into an allinscrap, but doubt the Welsh would have had the energy for it - their defence was awesome and legal too!
 

---

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
Will the real France finally show up this weekend and ruin England's six nations? If they are as bad as they have been at times this season then I think England can still pull it off. I'm not counting on it though.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
The real France consists of a decent scrum (though Kayser really ought to start) and a capable back three. Elsewhere they are pretty clueless, especially the coaching staff.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
So, any last-minute predictions on how the Six Nations is going to finish today? Ireland are in the box seat, surely?!
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I thought Wales would win in Rome, but their second half, even with that last-gasp Italian reply gives them a serious chance of the title.

I make them favourite now, so all my coworkers will be happy on Monday.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Just pray that Dan Biggar's failure to tackle doesn't cost us the championship...
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Oh well, looks like Wales won't win it after all. Ireland have thrashed Scotland, who weren't much better than Italy, so England's main hope must be that France are as generous as Italy and Scotland.
 

---

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
Bloody hell, that was an astonishing day of rugby. There were so many small moments that seemingly conspired to grant Ireland their barely-deserved win. Stuart Hogg's drop gave them the points advantage and the wrongful awarding of the French try (the one where the guy had a foot out of play and dropped it) turned out to be pivotal.

Entertaining, but ultimately heartbreaking and frustrating.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Actually the French guy didn't have his foot in touch before the ball was down - there were at least 4 replays that showed that. As for control of the ball - his hand was on it when it touched the ground so the try was awarded.

Look, the English played well but the French also started to come good; and don't forget the 9 points (3 conversions and a penalty) the French gave away because Plisson was having an off day.

Plus Lawes should have been at least yellow carded for the high spear tackle on Plisson.

Ireland are champions - yes, the Scots could have put up a better show of it but they didn't.
 

---

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually the French guy didn't have his foot in touch before the ball was down - there were at least 4 replays that showed that. As for control of the ball - his hand was on it when it touched the ground so the try was awarded.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Plus Lawes should have been at least yellow carded for the high spear tackle on Plisson.

---

It wasn't high and it wasn't a spear tackle, but apart from that, you're spot on.

If you want to make a case for a yellow card for being late then you would have more chance. You'd still be wrong, but you would be closer to being right!

But at the end of the day, England scored enough points to win it. They just turned the ball over and forgot to tackle once or twice too often and gifted France too many points. Too bad.

Thoroughly entertaining day though.

[Edited for code. ]

[ 21. March 2015, 20:20: Message edited by: Imaginary Friend ]
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I'd like to add a word for the referees who, on an utterly chaotic day made far fewer errors than the players.

Noted too that Nigel Owens was ref for the England - France match, Steve Walsh having retired: there are mixed messages about how much notice Steve Walsh gave, but communication wasn't the best point of his refereeing either.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I thought Nigel Owens had a great game. Got most of the big calls right, didn't make any obvious errors, and kept the game flowing. There was one particularly good moment near the end. England had a scrum in the French half, and you could clearly hear on the mic that Owens said to the English front row "I am going to referee this properly. If you bore in looking for a penalty, I will penalise you. But if the French infringe then I will penalise them. Understand?" At the scrum, the English went as straight as any scrum ever does, the French went around, and England got the penalty. Well done all round.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Owens is one of the best referees around at the moment.

And bearing in mind what happened to him when he refereed at Twickenham in November I take my hat off to him for the way he handled yesterday's match.
 

---

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually the French guy didn't have his foot in touch before the ball was down - there were at least 4 replays that showed that. As for control of the ball - his hand was on it when it touched the ground so the try was awarded.

---

I agree with this, and I am an an England supporter. I am still breathless. I watched 160 minutes of rugby and saw 170 points scored (I missed that dull, low-scoring Scotland-Ireland game).

What I want to know is why don't England, Ireland and Wales always play like they need to win by 20 points or more. Can't they just pretend they need to win by a huge margin?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
For goodness sake don't increase the points for a try or decrease those for a penalty! All that will do is increase still further the number of penalties given! Unless a side is likely to conceded points when they infringe, they will infringe more often (especially at rucks and mauls).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
What an astounding day of rugby that was! I think Ben Youngs was correct in his assessment of where England lost the Six Nations: all those mistakes and wasted opportunities against Scotland...

On making the game more exciting, and trying to see more tries scored, why not introduce a bonus point for scoring four tries, as they have in the premiership and world cup?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
They're going to be without Manu Tuilagi for a bit as well.

---

At least this season has shown that England have strength at centre. This makes the "Bath Axis" of Ford, Eastmond and Joseph more likely than ever.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The World Cup organisers are now sending out emails offering more tickets for some matches.

For others (such as Wales-Uruguay) they're having trouble selling - hardly surprising seeing that what would normally be a mid-priced seat (c£40-60) is on sale at £125.

We're going to see Wales-Ireland in August, sitting in top-price seats - tickets for 3 of us will cost less than one ticket for Wales Uruguay!

Obviously the English RU knows something we don't and is convinced the valleys are full of closet millionaires...
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Looks like England's less stable characters are being weeded out one way or another. Dylan Hartley will miss the first match of the World Cup. Personally I reckon he's lucky to get the minimum, four-week ban as his disciplinary record is awful. Mike Brown had better watch his step.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
This. Playoffs are un-British, unfair, and unwanted.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Looks like England's less stable characters are being weeded out one way or another. Dylan Hartley will miss the first match of the World Cup. Personally I reckon he's lucky to get the minimum, four-week ban as his disciplinary record is awful. Mike Brown had better watch his step.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
This. Playoffs are un-British, unfair, and unwanted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
This. Playoffs are un-British, unfair, and unwanted.

---

Well, unwanted except by the majority of the clubs in the Championship (last time they voted on it).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
This. Playoffs are un-British, unfair, and unwanted.

---

Well, unwanted except by the majority of the clubs in the Championship (last time they voted on it).

---

Of course they did! If there's one or two teams who are clearly better than everyone else in the division, then the other ten or eleven teams are always going to vote for a mechanism that still gives them a shot at promotion. That's politics, but it doesn't make it right.

---

See my point on the wider problem. Outside the premiership it's not all roses. There's a gang of clubs at the top of the sport that want to keep all the sweets for themselves, a governing body that wants a professional second tier and free gangway to the top tier but not to pay for any of that to happen...

When they came up with the "tier 2 must be professional" line ten years ago or however long it was, the RFU slashed 4 clubs from the championship to take it down to 12, but made up for the loss of income to the remaining clubs from number of games by introducing the playoffs and the B&I Cup.

AFAIC the answer is play-offs between the championship winner and Premiership last place, home and away. Otherwise, what's the solution (apart from ringfencing - which is exactly what you described the playoffs as; un-British, unfair and unwanted - although most of the premiership clubs want it)?

Bris and Wuss have got lucky with multi-millionaires/billionaires getting their cheque books out. In Bris' case, that's taking a traditional big club back to where the supporters believe it should be. In Wuss' case, it's taken a historic junior club to the top of the tree. There's an argument, certainly, for a 14 team premiership to accommodate all the clubs with the cheque books to pay for admission, but I'm not sure that's particularly fair either if they can't do the business on the field - I'm still waiting for Leeds to finish eighth next season and be assumed into the ringfenced prem on the basis of geography and shares....

Presumably, when I win the euromillions and bankroll Moseley back to where I and their fans believe they should be, we can expand the prem to 15, because clearly here cash is the decider.

The real elephant in the room, of course, is that both Bris and Wuss would probably struggle in the prem. Too good for one tier by a country mile (allegedly, unless Bris are away at Pirates or Wuss in Jersey - and it was only 2013-14 that Bris first won away at Billesley Common...), not good enough for the one above.

The top team should go up (or at least play-off with the bottom one of the prem), no argument there. But rugby in this country has got a few more problems top to bottom than just who gets promoted from the Championship, and that in itself is but a symptom of the wider malaise.

Sorry, this is veering towards purgatorial, happy to take it there...
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Another of England's Bad Lads has blotted his copybook in the run-up to the World Cup.

Tuilagi & Hartley out, no comment yet on Cipriani, are players trying to solve Stuart Lancaster's selection dilemmas?
 

---

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
looks like it.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Makes our problems with George North's injuries look like a mere nothing and at least Jonathan Davies' withdrawal means a chance for Scott Williams.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Just seen the awful news that Jerry Collins and his wife have died in a road crash in France.


 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Good news on the sports front for Australia (to make up for losing The Ashes).

This was for The Rugby Championship though, not the Bledisloe Cup which is a separate match next week.
 

---

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
All Blacks maybe a bit uncharacteristically disorganised this week but all credit to Australia.
What about South Africa; did they play the B team?
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:
All Blacks maybe a bit uncharacteristically disorganised this week but all credit to Australia.
What about South Africa; did they play the B team?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:
I thought Bismark Du Plessis was their enforcer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Warren Gatland has lost the plot: he's just released Hibbard from the squad for the world cup - the best defensive hooker in the northern hemisphere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I only saw the first half of England v France. I thought England looked okay. Inventive behind the scrum, as you say, but our defence seemed organised and that big number 12 can't half put a hit in! Having not seen much rugby for the past few years, I can't really comment much more widely than that forty minutes, but I'll be interested to see if the pack gets a bit better when the front row is at full strength.

---

quote:

---

With all that talent I really think the RWC is England's to lose.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Jonathan not Jamie Joseph surely?!

So 10, 12, 13 you'd go for:

10 - Ford
12 - Slade
13 - Joseph

It would be fantastic in attack, but I wonder if it might be considered a bit porous in defence? Ford doesn't have the stopping power of a Farrell or Wilkinson. I'm not saying we shouldn't start with this 10, 12, 13 combo, but I think Lancaster and particularly Farrell senior will go for something more defensive as the starting line-up, so Barritt (fitness permitting) or Burgess to start and Slade on the bench. I fear poor Burrell may lose out here, unless Barritt is unfit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
We read that the same, SS.

Meanwhile, if you look at the 'obvious' 8 sidelined by Stuart Lancaster, you'd have the basis of a goodish team. The decision to leave Cipriani out is astonishing.

---

Leaving Goode in is even more so as there are already three people who play FB and #10 better than he does. Cipriani is a genuine alternative.

[ 28. August 2015, 12:58: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Son #2 has a theory: says that Lancaster can pick teams which will reduce opposition to confused/incredulous laughter, thereby gaining England an advantage.

[I'm not saying I agree with him ]
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
This tactic hasn't worked very well for the footballers so far...
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
This tactic hasn't worked very well for the footballers so far...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Splendid performance by England in the first half, which rather fell apart during the replacements in the second.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It doesn't matter. Winning is everything and England will be very, very lucky to avoid playing the Big Three Southern Hemisphere countries if they get to the final, which is how it should be, because true winners ought not to rely on others doing the hard work for them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Thanks for sorting that out Cod. Only two of the strongest three then!

Apropos Wayne Barnes and New Zealand: could it be that he has Richie McCaw taped? McCaw says Barnes is a "Top Bloke" but when you are the captain and the other guy is a referee, you've got to say that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Thanks for sorting that out Cod. Only two of the strongest three then!

Apropos Wayne Barnes and New Zealand: could it be that he has Richie McCaw taped? McCaw says Barnes is a "Top Bloke" but when you are the captain and the other guy is a referee, you've got to say that.

---

Barnes is very personable when I've seen him interviewed but as an official( never thought I'd say it) I think he tends to under use the whistle. In pressure situations he doesn't give many penalties and is inclined to be liberal on forward passes. He'll often say the ball went down or back when the crowd has seen a knock on. I like a flowing game though so if it is consistent that's fine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukai:
Go, Fiji, go! ("or "Lako, Lako viti!", as we say in Fiji). Let's hope the ref doesn't penalise Fiji out of the game.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Any thoughts on how the TMO was used? I thought it was slow, boring, and unnecessary. And for the extra official to call back a try and check it when the kicker is already lining up the conversion is undoubtedly a step too far!!

---

As IRB sevens champions, Fiji are accustomed to taking quick drop-kick conversions, so I suspect they and many other teams will aim to put those points on the Board before the TMO can intervene, especially for any tries scored near the goal posts.
And in real time , I reckon there was a forward pass in the movement leading to the final England try, but unfortunately the TMO didn't replay the whole movement.
Other wise I thought the refereeing by Jaco was reasonably good and pretty consistent; he gave quite a few penalties both ways for holding the ball (quite correctly) and even penalised the England scrum once. (Although like most scrum penalties I have no idea what for.)
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
What do shipmates think about todays three games?

I don't think the bookies are taking bets on South Africa to beat Japan and Ireland to beat Canada, but there's a market to be made for Tonga v Georgia at 12:00 today. It could be decided by the team that has the better breakfast and comes out of the blocks quickest, because midday looks awfully early in the day for a rugby match. Either way, it'll be a bruising encounter (remember Stalin was a Georgian: I can imagine him as a hooker) I take Tonga to win by eight points, and there will be three yellow cards and the first red of the tournament.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I was wrong there! It wasn't a thing of beauty but I don't think anyone expected that. Tonga played as if they expected everything to go by the script and didn't have a Plan B to fall back on when it became obvious that physical confrontation wasn't going to work.

Georgia v Argentina could be another battle up front. Don't expect that to be pretty either. To be honest this whole group looks dry.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
I say!
Japan putting on a good show against South Africans.
Tide does seem to turning in SA's favour as I speak.
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 
Did that just happen?
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Wow.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Amazing. What a display of "bottle" going for the win instead of settling for a draw. Apart from Ireland's dismantling of Canada the other games have been competitive: England didn't pull away from Fiji until the subs came on and Fiji tired.
 

---

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
Incredible. SA is so inconsistent but all credit to Japan! Rewriting the history books. In 2011 they were called minnows as I recall. No more.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
I was out of the loop, so when it came up on my phone feed it was like er wow.

Australians are crowing because the coach is Australian. On this occasion I say fair enough. 'e's done good.
 

---

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
Yes. A great coaching triumph for Eddie Jones, with perfect execution by the players. Pushig South Africa back with an "all-in" rolling maul for a try was a master-stroke and a huge psychological blow to the huge Springbok pack.
Eddie Jones is indeed an Australian, but his mother is originally from Japan and he has lived there for quite a few years, so is well in tune with Japanese culture and mindset.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
So, the Pumas go in at half-time with a point over the All Blacks and having scored the only try.

Earlier the Welsh gave a solid performance: a first-haf hat-trick of tries from Allen (a world cup first!) 2 from Gareth Davies and an all-round good team effort got the job done. 8 Tries in all and Wales head the Pool table on points scored.

On the downside there were worrying injuries: Dan Lydiate in particular needs to be fit if we are to do anything this world cup, and Allen also went off hurt: Gatland has another headache.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I thought Wales did well, but why do players talk the performance down so much in interviews? It wasn't perfect, but Wales had a number of alternate selections, especially in the back row and at scrum-half. Others like Alun Wyn Jones were absent but with the possible exception of Jake Ball (who looks a penalty-giver) and Hallam Amos (who just looks 'green') they did well.
 

---

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
The Pumas also look ominous and could be giant killers.They rattled the ABs for 60 mins and showed great all round skills. The difference in the end as with England was the depth of their bench.

I thought Wayne Barnes had a good game. For once the ABs won when he ref'd them? Did anyone else pick up that McCaw is not the most popular man in England ATM?
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamat:
The Pumas also look ominous and could be giant killers.They rattled the ABs for 60 mins and showed great all round skills. The difference in the end as with England was the depth of their bench.

I thought Wayne Barnes had a good game. For once the ABs won when he ref'd them? Did anyone else pick up that McCaw is not the most popular man in England ATM?

---

You're spot on there. The Pumas have been respected in the British Isles for a long time now, probably since they gave Wales a scare in (I think) 1978. Then Federico Mendez, their teenage hooker, laid out Paul Ackford, the English lock and the die was cast.

Right about McCaw too, who is simply a serial offender. Barnes did however card him. I was amazed that yesterday's was just his third yellow card in 142 matches! He's almost as sly as our Richard Hill was!

[ 21. September 2015, 09:33: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

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Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
I was English on Friday night, Japanese on Saturday, and Argentine yesterday. I think SS is right that the British Isles have been generally fans of Argentinean rugby for a couple of decades now (except when they happen to be playing whichever home nation is your choice).

My own highlight of the weekend of course was a very competitive showing by Moseley against London Welsh, although they didn't quite pull of the losing BP in the end. Last year they wouldn't have stayed in touch with them though so this is progress.
 

---

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
Incidentally, the main thing I learned this weekend was that England have a better Wales kit than Wales do...
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Amazing atmosphere at Twickenham for the opening ceremony and England v Fiji.

Unfortunately, my wife and I got caught up in the travel chaos after they shut Twickenham station...
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I was English on Friday night, Japanese on Saturday, and Argentine yesterday. I think SS is right that the British Isles have been generally fans of Argentinean rugby for a couple of decades now (except when they happen to be playing whichever home nation is your choice).

---

Yes, (although perhaps I would go with "admirers" rather than "fans", but we're on the same page ) which is a bit strange, considering that the footballing support (at least in England) still has a severe hangover from the Falklands when it comes to "the Argies". At one point, wasn't there a thought that they could be included in the 6 Nations as well, playing their "home" games in Spain? Perhaps I misremember.

But I think it's definitely true that it's Good For The Sport™ to have a strong team from South America.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
England fotball supporters have never had much time for Argentina. Back in 1966 Antonio Rattin was probably the dirtiest player present while later there was the notorious cheat Diego Maradona, he of the "Hand of God".
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
posted by iamchristianhearmeroar

quote:

---

Unfortunately, my wife and I got caught up in the travel chaos after they shut Twickenham station... [Mad]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:

quote:

---

Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I was English on Friday night, Japanese on Saturday, and Argentine yesterday. I think SS is right that the British Isles have been generally fans of Argentinean rugby for a couple of decades now (except when they happen to be playing whichever home nation is your choice).

---

Yes, (although perhaps I would go with "admirers" rather than "fans", but we're on the same page ) which is a bit strange, considering that the footballing support (at least in England) still has a severe hangover from the Falklands when it comes to "the Argies". At one point, wasn't there a thought that they could be included in the 6 Nations as well, playing their "home" games in Spain? Perhaps I misremember.

But I think it's definitely true that it's Good For The Sport™ to have a strong team from South America.

---

Football likes to have cartoon villains so it magnifies problems/issues. Rugby much less so. That and the fact that IME as long as you stay off "the war" English and Argentineans (and Chileans) get on like a house on fire.

There's an old (and kindly) definition of the Argentines which runs something like:
a race of Italians living in South America who speak Spanish and think they're English.

Their participation in the 6 Nations was talked about - not least because most of their leading players at that time were playing in the N Hemisphere (for a variety of reasons but mainly because the Argentine game was still amateur until a couple of years ago so they had to make all their money in the off-season).

There was always IMO a much greater claim to be taking part in a competition aligned with their own domestic season but for a long time the Championship trio held out against because (amongst other things) they didn't fancy splitting the money 4 ways.
 

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
Discussion point.
England/Fiji.
Should Peyper have reversed the decision on the Fijian try by the halfback. He had already signalled it and that reversal seems some kind of precedent. Never seen that before at any level.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I thought the whole way the TMO was used in that game was somewhat farcical. But I'm a traditionalist when it comes to these things: refereeing mistakes have always been part of the game: I don't see any reason to change.
 

---

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
All Blacks beat Namibia(yawn) but Namibia score a good try!
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
What do shipmates think of the rolling maul as a tactic? It always looks to me like a form of legalised obstruction, and thus outside the spirit of the game
It would be different if the player with the ball was at the front, where he could be tackled, but as it is, any attempt to tackle the the bloke with ball is ruled to be "offside" and penalised. And any attempt to "clear out" the players obstructing the tackler is also penalised as "tackling someone not in possession".
It would be fair enough if the ball carrier is being pushed forward by his teammates and backwards by his opponents, but that's not what we see.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
At first sight it does look like legitimised obstruction but vthen, what is a pushover scrum? The ball is (fairly) safely under the number 8's feet with the second row and flankers, plus the front row between the opposition and the ball.

Some years ago a brave tactic was tried by Australia. When a rolling maul formed they disengaged, which effectively changed the situation into open play so any man in contact with and ahead of the ball carrier would be offside, though possibly accidentally.

OTOH, we could do something about "lifting" in the line-out, which is the principal source of ball for rolling mauls. I know it's not called lifting, but it is just that.
 

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Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
A pushover scrum results from a fair contest of strength 8 against 8, and so is IMO different in character from a maul, rolling or otherwise. .
 

---

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
It is an eg of how the officials have dictated how rugby has developed. It is inconsistent given that in every other situation where a side puts players between the ball carrier and the defender it is called obstruction.
In fairness, they do not allow supporters to join a maul in front of a ball carrier nor can they break off and rejoin, that is penalised as truck and trailer. The issue for me is that they also penalise the pulling down of a maul and that gives almost no defensive options.
For mine it seems to be a general play reinvention of the scrum but where the ball is off the ground. If a defending pack can halt a maul they do get the scrum at least but in a maul it is possible to conceal the ball and confuse opposition.
I actually get more miffed with scrum penalties and resets. The officials could sort this by insisting the ball is immediately used as they do with slow rucks.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Typically bruising encounter between England an Wales in progress. I wouldn't want to call it even though England are currently leading.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
It'll be a tense last ten minutes, I'll wager.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
If Wales were playing a more disciplined side they would be beaten by now.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
My word, Wales are they fighting for it! They are down to iron rations behind the scrum but they keep England out. Amazing stuff.
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Crap. We had that and we threw it away. Gutting.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Crap. We had that and we threw it away. Gutting.

---

We kicked quite a lot of it away! Hubris played a part too, especially after that spate of Welsh injuries when England, I think, thought they only had to be there to win.
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

WA-LES! WA-LES! WA-LES!
 

---

Posted by marzipan (# 9442) on :
 
Yay Wales! Was a good match, Wales were getting a bit sloppy before half time but they managed to get it together in the end. Though how much of Wales's squad will be not injured by the end of October I'm not certain...
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Hubris played a part too, especially after that spate of Welsh injuries when England, I think, thought they only had to be there to win.

---

Yep, did the hard work then just relaxed and ..... Bish-bash-bosch , result goes to the away team.

Seen it before, dare say we'll see it again. Mind you questions will soon arise as to how far England are actually going to get in this tournament.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Mae Duw* We won!

The children are ecstatic and have a massive flag ready to hoist first thing in the morning.

It was lovely to see Warren Gatland jumping for joy. Also good to see that Prince William knows the national anthem - no Redwood he!

WAL-ES WAL-ES WAL-ES


* there is a God
 

---

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

WAL-ES WAL-ES WAL-ES

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Crap. We had that and we threw it away. Gutting.

---

Why on earth did they not take the draw?
Unbelievable decisions by England in last 20 mins!
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
It's the way it's chanted in rugby stadia, Leorning Cniht, not the way it would be said in normal speech.

TypicAlly, in Welsh accENts, the stress is on the penulTIMate sylLAble ...hence the sing-song effect.

But no, we don't say 'WAL-ES' unless it's for emphasis - but thinking about it, Wales tends to be pronounced more like 'Way-els' rather than 'wails' - but only slightly more like that. It sounds like 'whales' for the most part - and even very posh people here would no longer pronounce the 'h' in that.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Sounds like England have got to beat Australia to stay in it.

No pressure then
 

---

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
There's always a chance that Wales, the perennial bottlers that they are, will lose against Fiji or Uruguay.
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Not Uruguay- that was last week. But yes, it would be just like us to go down to Fiji now. And of course there's the little matter fo Australia, too.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Quite a few of the Welsh people I spoke to at church this morning said that they are worried about Fiji. They will be OK though, even if Tipuric has to start at wing. Come to thing of it he'd be just right to mark that big guy who kicks for goal for Fiji.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
posted by Leorning Cniht

quote:

---

The 'L' is in the first syllable in your way of speaking? Really?

---

quote:

---

There's always a chance that Wales, the perennial bottlers that they are, will lose against Fiji or Uruguay.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Imaginary Friend

quote:

---

There's always a chance that Wales, the perennial bottlers that they are, will lose against Fiji or Uruguay.

---

1. We've already played Uruguay: we scored 8 tries and ran out winners 54-9.

2. Bottlers? Are you thinking of Wembley 1999, or the Six Nations in 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012 or maybe 2013? If you look at the last 10 years of the 6 Nations you'll see that honours are even.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
2. Bottlers?

---

On the wind-up mate. Nice to see someone bit.
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Ugh. Yet another high pressure situation under which England crumble. Lancaster has pulled off some amazing one-off wins in his tenure - being the only Northern Hemisphere team to beat the All Blacks in the last 6 years comes to mind. But, but, but, when push comes to shove in the high pressure games, six nations deciders for example, England come up short time and again.

I think Robshaw's shown that he doesn't have "it" when it comes to captaincy, whatever "it" is. Yet again a tight call is made between kicking for points or pressing for a try. Yet again, the "wrong" decision is made. (Who knows if the kick would have gone over; all we know is that kicking for the corner didn't work). Good captains have a knack of making the right call in that sort of situation. Robshaw has shown he doesn't have that knack: ergo...

Captaincy can be changed. What can't be changed so easily is Lancaster's seeming obsession with taking players off the field who are playing well - all of Dan Cole, Joe Marler, Tom Youngs and Sam Burgess were taken off for "tactical" reasons. All were playing well. Even Youngs!

Lose against Australia (50-50 game I reckon) and we're out. In that situation I think Lancaster's also out.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Heard Will Carling on BBCR4 this morning saying that Robshaw should have gone for the points rather than the chance of a win. Carling, for all that he's a figure from the past, encapsulates so much that many of us loathe about English rugby culture and so that comment came as no surprise. Going for the corner was brave and sporting and exciting and Robshaw deserves credit for it. If it had succeeeded everyone would now be saying what a good decision it was.

[ 28. September 2015, 09:50: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Well, Carling or not, I still think it was the wrong decision in retrospect. My point from my earlier post was that over time captains should get the knack of making the correct call (i.e. the call that works) in those high pressure situations. Robshaw did not make the right call, and rarely seems to.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Yes, it was the wrong decision - but it wasn't the choice to go for the corner that did the damage but the call to shorten the lineout. A longer lineout would have meant a much longer Welsh line to be defended: taking the shortened option immediately raised the possibility of the receiver, plus any other England players immediately involved, being bundled into touch. Which is exactly what happened and meant that, the clock having just turned red, Biggar could boot the ball into the stands.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Heard Will Carling on BBCR4 this morning saying that Robshaw should have gone for the points rather than the chance of a win. Carling, for all that he's a figure from the past, encapsulates so much that many of us loathe about English rugby culture and so that comment came as no surprise. Going for the corner was brave and sporting and exciting and Robshaw deserves credit for it. If it had succeeeded everyone would now be saying what a good decision it was.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
An RFU tie and blazer really suits Will Carling...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
An RFU tie and blazer really suits Will Carling...

---

Which is a bit ironic, considering his famous words about fifty seven old farts.

---

If you can't beat'em, join'em.
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Hmm, have just rewatched these highlights of the autumn international against Australia last year. If England get that scoreline, I'll be happy. Potentially not that many changes (for England) from the side that won last time they met.

My starting XV for Australia (assuming all are fit...) would be

1 - Marler
2 - Youngs
3 - Wilson(!)
4 - Launchbury
5 - Lawes
6 - Wood
7 - Robshaw (c)
8 - Morgan

9 - Youngs
10 - Ford

11 - May
12 - Slade
13 - Joseph
14 - Watson
15 - Brown

Bench: Vunipola, Webber, Cole, Parling, Easter(!), Care(!), Farrell, Burgess

I don't think we can go in to win by grinding out a victory through penalties; we have to score tries, so has to be a 10-12-13 of Ford-Slade-Joseph.

A bit harsh to drop Cole to the bench maybe, but Wilson is a scrum specialist and we need to be dominant there - not sure whether Vunipola would be a better scrum option than Marler, probably not.

I think I'd want the cooler heads of Easter and Burgess ready on the bench to bring a bit of sense in a close finish. Also, why not bring a bit of flair in Care over the pretty predictable Wigglesworth?
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I feel rather differently about it. We can win by grinding out penalties but we have to be a lot smarter, especially at the breakdown. That will be difficult because in David Pocock and Michael Hooper Australia have two flank forwards quicker than any of ours. Pocock in particular is an outstanding operator. It's probably best not even to compete all the time, and concentrate on stopping the man behind the line when they break.

I'd start with Parling and Launchbury too. They work really well together and are practically the same size which is a good thing for locks in the scrum. Lawes may be bigger and stronger but I don't think he's any better and the others put in more tackles although they make fewer spectacular hits than Lawes. He would be a good option at about 55 minutes though.

I agree that Care has flair but right now he is out of form. Ben Youngs was having an outstanding game, but like others I reckon he was taken off when lancaster thought England had the game in the bag.

I'm really undecided about the centres. I'd like to play Burgess aand Joseph but I'm not sure about Big Sam as a playmaker.
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Yep, breakdown we're way off the Aussies so we have to be super smart and only give away penalties if we absolutely have to to prevent a try scoring situation.

I can see Burgess/Joseph having a good balance, but you'd want Ford as your flyhalf not Farrell. If you're only taking one playmaker, you want to use your best. Equally, if Tuilagi was in the squad you'd think about playing Tuilagi/Joseph. Both are players that the opposition worry about and both can turn a game.

I think Burgess is so good on the offload (both giving and receiving as it were) that he makes a pretty good foil to Joseph. Slade on the bench?
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I hope the Stop Paloma Faith petition gets somewhere soon - that appalling caterwauling at the ad breaks is driving me nuts
 

---

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Oh, it's her! I wondered why I didn't like it...
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I hope the Stop Paloma Faith petition gets somewhere soon - that appalling caterwauling at the ad breaks is driving me nuts

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Yes, it was the wrong decision - but it wasn't the choice to go for the corner that did the damage but the call to shorten the lineout. A longer lineout would have meant a much longer Welsh line to be defended: taking the shortened option immediately raised the possibility of the receiver, plus any other England players immediately involved, being bundled into touch. Which is exactly what happened and meant that, the clock having just turned red, Biggar could boot the ball into the stands.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Yes, it was the wrong decision - but it wasn't the choice to go for the corner that did the damage but the call to shorten the lineout. A longer lineout would have meant a much longer Welsh line to be defended: taking the shortened option immediately raised the possibility of the receiver, plus any other England players immediately involved, being bundled into touch. Which is exactly what happened and meant that, the clock having just turned red, Biggar could boot the ball into the stands.

---

That short lineout, whether Wales read or not I duuno, just looked like a pathetic schoolboy rugby blunder.
We can but hope England forget all about that against the Aussies. Only a return to top-class professional rugby is going to produce an England win on Saturday.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Do I recall right that, in the Carling era, England once won the Five Nations and didn't actually score a try until they already had the tournament in the bag?

AG

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I wouldn't put it quite like that, but at least we didn't slip up on that particular banana skin.

Our players looked knackered beyond sense by the end - thank goodness we've got 8 days before we face Australia.

---

Wales missed a load of tackles (the stats showed 25 missed with a few minutes to go) and had a harder time in the scrum than they did against England. Dan Lydiate saved the day at least three times and Gareth Davies is doing a great job at scrum half. It really was a day for men pretending not to be hurt for eighty minutes.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Face it, there is something slightly skewed in the number of rest days that teams get between matches. England had 7 clear rest days between their first and second matches and have 6 clear days between their second and third, and third and fourth.

If Wales looked knackered its because they had five clear days between matches 1 and 2 and then only four between 2 and 3; granted they'll get 8 clear days now before facing Australia, but over the whole cycle they still end up with fewer rest days than the English.

As for the Australians, they've had/will have 3, 5 and 6 clear rest days between their matches.

It can't be viewed as fair that one team should get 19 clear rest days in the Pool stage while another only has 14 - and how strange that the team to benefit most is from the host nation in the so-called Pool of Death.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
There's been a lot written about this but I'm sure the host nation has always had a better schedule. It's worse for some sides (eg, Wales, Ireland and Scotland) because they have fewer top level sides to provide the necessary depth although they are very definitely tier 1 sides.

I'm sure I could work out a schedule that would give each team at least six days between fixtures and possibly fewer days with no fixtures, during the group stages at any rate.

[ 02. October 2015, 09:09: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
New Zealand scored seven tries against a heroic Georgia team who gave them a hard time at the scrums and forced a lot of handling errors.

It looks like more of the teams outside the Six Nations/Southern Hemisphere Championship are getting closer to the Big Ten. They seem to be fitter, bigger, stronger and better coached and a few need only to improve their attack to be more of a threat to the top teams.
 

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
The ABs looked like a team of individuals. they don't have what Wales has.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Just watched the first half of England v Australia
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Still just alive! 15 minutes to go, England seven points behind - and Burgess is coming on for Barritt.

Cometh the hour?
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Quite touching- sincerely, no schadenfreude- to see Robshaw in tears at the end of the game.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite touching- sincerely, no schadenfreude- to see Robshaw in tears at the end of the game.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite touching- sincerely, no schadenfreude- to see Robshaw in tears at the end of the game.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
Thanks the link IF.

I'm inclined to agree with the point made about England lacking the tight unit factor, and the electricity that comes as a consequence from having that.
One felt it was there in 03 . Well that, plus a fly-half who could consistently pop drop goals over at crucial stages of a game.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Not sure I agree with point 8 (the media scrutinises everyone!) but this is mostly reasoned and thoughtful from Eddie Butler.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Nice bloke as he seems, Lancaster has to go. His reputation is now shot, and it's always going to be a chink in the England armour (which is pretty porous in any case) if their coach oversaw an exit from the group stages. Even if Lancaster miraculously stays, Robshaw's certainly out - doesn't have that decision-making ability needed for captain.

Perhaps England will finally appoint a head coach with significant previous coaching experience, and with a record of actually having won stuff.

They've got to stop this ridiculous policy of not picking overseas players too - the policy hasn't been around for ever: didn't use to stop us picking Wilko when he was at Toulon!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm looking forward to Namibia v Georgia tonight, which Georgia ought to win but won't find easy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
It certainly was - the best I've seen so far, and good value for money with that insanely long first half! Anyone any idea what exactly was going on there?

AG

---

• Australia should eat the remnant of Wales
• New Zealand should finally turn up to defeat Tonga
• Argentina will smash Namibia
• Italy should sort Romania
• Japan conquer USA (awkward historical ring to that one)
• Scotland over Samoa
• I think Ireland may do it

There's my call

and in the game that really matters Hawke's Bay should/might defeat Waikato tonight
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
PS ... the (in)famous 2011 world cup final winning and much parodied kicker Stephen Donald, er, isn't playing for abovementioned Waikato tonight. He's out injured. Hawke's Bay has a young player, a first five eight who I think will be much heard of in international circles soon, Ihaia West. Watch this spot, and I think he's knocking on the door of All Black selection pretty soon.

You heard it here first.
 

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
Ihaia is a great goal kicker but is a bit one dimensional as a 10. He made little impression with the Blues who had their worst season ever. The Waikato 10 was all class though, Damian Mckenzie, and he might be a man of the future. NZ is awash with class first fives.
The ABs made a bit of a statement against Tonga this morning though.

[ 09. October 2015, 23:55: Message edited by: Jamat ]
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Samoa v Scotland is a mad game. Samoa are really going for it and at times Scotland's defence is in tatters. There are just three points in it at half-time.

If Samoa do pull it off then Japan, not Scotland, will probably* go to the quarter-finals and Samoa will regret being so poor against Japan.

*Scotland could go through if they lose, get two bonus points and Japan get four points or fewer against the USA.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Sounds like Scotland are through.

Wales Australia was a titanic scrap. Even found myself rooting for the reds at one point.
I see that giving up a close-to-the-line penalty for a line-out in the corner is standard practice now.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
Sounds like Scotland are through.

Wales Australia was a titanic scrap. Even found myself rooting for the reds at one point.
I see that giving up a close-to-the-line penalty for a line-out in the corner is standard practice now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jamat:
Scotland by a whisker!

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I haven't been following the matches (the only channel I've seen it mentioned is in French) but delighted that Scotland are through (I thought we'd gone out at the same time as England).

Australia next though ...
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Wales were in the unfortunate position of playing not just the Australians but also the referee. How on earth he justified not awarding Wales a penalty try is beyond belief.

The TMO for the match also seems to have been blind to people being tackled in the air and a shoulder charge on Alex Cuthbert that left him winded on the pitch was completely ignored.

Still, we're through to the quarter-finals and now have a team of South Africans to look forward to, as opposed to just one SA referee.

It was interesting to note that the ITV commentary team called the Wales-Australia match the best of the tournament so far: bearing in mind there were no tries that says a lot.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
The referring for Wales-Australia was pretty poor all round. Although both teams were through, a lot rode on the result and erratic use of the whistle didn't help. Wales didn't help themselves when Australia were down to 13 players, for the dreaded "white-line fever" set in. Teams really ought to practice more against uneven opposition, because it happens in almost any game in which you have a chance of a result.
 

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
Sad that Wales turned down 3 points with 10 mins to go and more than once. I always say take the points when the game is close . Wales gave Aussie a big fright. Agree that penalty try could have resulted from one of those scrums close to the line. Be interesting to see after that if Joubert gets a QF gig.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I'm gobsmacked to read in The Sunday Times that the reckon Joubert had an excellent game; to say he was inconsistent is to be kind.

Yes, I agree that Wales displayed more than a little white line fever, but then who wouldn't? The whole point of the game, after all, is to carry the ball across the line and score a try, not kick endless penalties.
 

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :
 
Ireland are starting it look like the real deal.
InterestingQF match up between ABs and France. All we need now is Wayne Barnes on the whistle.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jamat:
Ireland are starting it look like the real deal.
InterestingQF match up between ABs and France. All we need now is Wayne Barnes on the whistle.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:


I expect New Zealander's are having a very pleasant breakfast!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zappa:
I'm in the USA at the moment, but mine hosts agreed to a pay per view and I introduced them to a level of carnage that made US football look tender.

It was the sweetest ABs game since one of their 50+ annihilations of OZ some years back. They're back.

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More than anything it was relentness. Once New Zealand got their foot on France's throat they didn't lift it. Savea's try just before half-time was actually a better illustration of power than Jonah Lomu's smashing his way through England's defence in 1995. Milner-Skudder's was a thing of beauty and I hope he's fit for the next match. Credit to France for not rolling over in the hope that the ref would stop the fight but how on earth do you play a side that is so comfortable with ball in hand from 1 to 23?

The third QF is coming up - Ireland v Argentina. Let's see if at least one Northern Hemisphere team can make the semi-finals.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Given the level of Schadenfreude dished out to the English last week, I must say I'm quite enjoying this weekend.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
The NH teams have got to accept that positional skills, power and passion are not enough. We're being stuffed by teams that play 15-man rugby, and it isn't just New Zealand.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Well, that goes down with the Flodden and Culloden in the list of national tragedies. But given the practice Scotland have had, I expect we'll get as much fun out of commemorating it as if we'd won.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Bunch of mutants, Aus & NZ. Our own fault (us & the French) for testing our nukes down there years ago.

[ 18. October 2015, 16:50: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Cruel that. At least Scotland can hold their heads high.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Maybe it's because the ball spins in the other direction below the Equator?
 

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Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :
 
Perhaps, to ease the traffic in Middlesex (OK, West London) they should play the last few matches somewhere the other side of the Line.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Wow! never expected that from the Ireland game

As for the Scots? Bravo ! Made the Wallabies dig deep. Even had me shouting for joy when Scotland intercepted and went under the posts in the 75th min.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I just hope they carry that through to the Home Internationals - win the Calcutta cup f'instance and all will be forgiven.
 

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Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Yea and amen, Firenze. To borrow an expression from The Other Sort Of Football, we was robbed.


 

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Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Yes, I have to say I (as an Englishman) am not particularly hopeful about the next Calcutta Cup match! Hats off to the Scots, they deserved to beat Oz and were very unfortunate with the ref (who sprinted off the field!!). I think the improvement in Scotland's play, more than anything else almost, shows the importance of having a really top head coach in place. England suits take note...
 

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Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 

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Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
... England suits take note...

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Just not until after the next Calcutta Cup ...
 

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Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
I think there's every likelihood of that happening. I have a nasty feeling that the current England coaching setup may be exonerated and remain in place - if that happens my prediction is that England will suffer their worst Six Nations for a long time, after which the coaching team will walk. Back to the drawing board. Again.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I think there's every likelihood of that happening. I have a nasty feeling that the current England coaching setup may be exonerated and remain in place - if that happens my prediction is that England will suffer their worst Six Nations for a long time, after which the coaching team will walk. Back to the drawing board. Again.

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quote:

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Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:


Having watched back the replays of that moment, I have a more major concern than the "mistake". If you try to pause this at around 18.5 seconds you can see Joubert's arm going up to indicate the penalty *before* Jon Welsh has even caught the ball!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Bunch of mutants, Aus & NZ. Our own fault (us & the French) for testing our nukes down there years ago.

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sadly I fear I won't be able to watch the ABs v Boks from downtown Chicago .... but I'll try to find a way
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
It'll be X certificate stuff between the Boks and the ABs. I reckon the Boks know they will have to cut the supply of ball at source, so it will be a brutal game. Not at all suitable for those of a nervous disposition.

[ 22. October 2015, 21:57: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Yeah, that's me alas. Best I watch the Chicago Blue sox or someone.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Don't want to put in a spoiler for anyone yet to watch. Other than to say it was a good, hard, and tight match.

Another wet Twickers, always a nice leveller.
 

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Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :
 
Sat watching it with a couple of Kiwis. It was 8am here, so no chance of a few beers to calm the nerves.

Not a great match in terms of exciting play, but a thunderous game by two sides, neither of whom were willing to give an inch.

The best side won (just), but those last 10 minutes were enough to turn anyone's hair grey.
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
Was it just me or did both the tries come from forward passes?
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Was it just me or did both the tries come from forward passes?

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The second was very lateral indeed. I'm always struck by the enthusiasm with which referees penalise knock-ons compared with the way forward passes are overlooked.
 

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Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
Yes, agreed. That first one was described as a basketball pass, and I thought "yes, in more ways than one". But it was understandable because it was Richie McCaw and we realise that he can't be penalized. I didn't know that extended to forward passes though. Still, NZ were the better team and deserved to get through so those tries helped them overcome the penalty lottery which S.A. won.

I just re-read this post and it sounds really cynical. Actually I enjoyed the game, though I would describe it as intense rather than entertaining.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
At the risk of getting egg all over my face, I'm pleased to see that Nigel Owens is going to be in charge of the RWC final. Of all the international referees, he seems to have a wonderful balance of grasp of the rules and humour.

Its also great news for equality: I only hope he doesn't get any more of the disgraceful homophobic abuse that has, in the past, seemed to be a Twickenham speciality when he referees.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I'm going to watch the game tonight together with a South African friend. I don't know much about rugby, but I'm going to cheer a lot
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Believe it or not there's rugby tonight! In England the Aviva Premiership has got going in earnest a little earlier than expected while there's the third place showdown at London's Olympic Stadium between South Africa and Argentina.

South Africa must be favourites but Argentina will go for everything, and with their back three I don't blame them! I only hope they are little more careful than against Australia whom they gifted three tries (an interception, one for limp defence and another from an iffy yellow card).

Most of the better Argentinians will still be around in 2019, including their excellent young locks, so with their involvement in the Rugby Championship, and the Super Twelve participation to come, they will be a match for anyone. I can see the Six Nations struggling to make the semi-finals again.

eta: L'organist makes good points there. Twickenham can be a nasty place. I remember Chris Oti being booed by some, and he was playing for England and had scored three tries.

[ 30. October 2015, 12:09: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Heh, even the South Africans congratulated the Argentinian with that last minute try.
I enjoyed that.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Not such a great game, but the attitude of the Boks at the end did them a lot of credit.

Quite an array of 'Boks are retiring or at any rate won't be at the next World Cup, but I don't expect them to be any weaker.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
Half time, All Blacks significantly the better team. Uphill task for Aussie now.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Good final, with a fair result.
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
Indeed. The first half was pretty much one way traffic, but the second was a cracker.

AG
 

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Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Well done the Kiwis.
 

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Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :
 
I thought the yellow card was a bit harsh, and it was really that which let the Aussies back into the game.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
The Aussies were having big troubles winning their own line-out ball which put them under a lot of unnecessary pressure.
Even without that the A.Bs looked the better side from the start. It did get exciting when there was 7 points in it towards the end.

2015 will rightly go down as a good and entertaining tournament overall.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
The Aussies were having big troubles winning their own line-out ball which put them under a lot of unnecessary pressure.
Even without that the A.Bs looked the better side from the start. It did get exciting when there was 7 points in it towards the end.

2015 will rightly go down as a good and entertaining tournament overall.

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