Ship of Fools: Black Friday

Thread: Black Friday Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

This year, I noticed for the first time black friday sales advertised here. AIUI, this is an American custom that began in the 1960's. I have no problem with the American custom, but I am quite upset by the name Black Friday being associated with retail events in Australia.

On Friday 13 January 1939, one of the worst bushfires in the short history of Victoria took hold. By the time they had burnt themselves out, 71 people were dead, several towns had been raised and 3,700 buildings were destroyed. 4,942,000 acres were burned.

Black Friday etched itself into the minds of Victorians who were alive then and their children, like me. Since then, bushfires have come and gone, volunteer and professional fire fighters have died from time to time, including horrific incidents where trucks and their crews have been lost. Civilians too have suffered from fire.

The memory of Black Friday as told by our parents was horribly revived on our own black day, Saturday 7 February 2009. I remember the day, but I'll just give you the stats: 173 dead, 414 injured, Kinglake and Marysville, two substantial towns, were destroyed and 1.1 million acres burned.

Every summer since 2009, without fail, I am on high alert. We flee early, twice so far spending an evening with my brother in Melbourne.

Our retailers must know that Black Friday has a specific and somber meaning. It is very upsetting that they have gone ahead with this imported tradition. What's wrong with doing a red light special or something?

Bastards.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I'm with you on this - there is a good reason for Black Friday in the US. In the UK, we don't have Thanksgiving so it is meaningless.

In the UK, "Black" tends to be associated with stock market crashes. Or other disasters. Not an early sale.

I participated in Buy Nothing Day that day.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
In the UK, we don't have Thanksgiving so it is meaningless.

We are starting to have it. There is increased demand for pumpkin pie and pumpkin recipes and turkey around that time and it is starting to become a thing. Halloween was an American import that took a while to catch on, like St Patrick's Day, but in about 10 years from now Thanksgiving may have become an established custom here too. I doubt we'll get a national holiday, though.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Halloween was an American import that took a while to catch on, like St Patrick's Day...

I'm sure there will be threads languishing in the bowels of the ship in which it is correctly argued that Hallowe'en is no American import (although "trick or treat" may be, but only by that name.) St Patrick's Day, though, is surely an Irish import, not an American one? Those areas of the UK with a high Irish population have long celebrated Paddymas with masses, religious processions, secular parades, spectacular drunkenness and the engaging in the ancient traditional sport of "smashing in da skull of da nearest upright fecker ya don't recognise/know."

Ahh! Happy days which make me so proud of da emerald blood flowing through me veins...

Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :

Black Friday only means something for large retail corporations (mostly USA owned) in Canada and to large shopping malls that use it as an excuse for marking down already-overpriced material. I would rather see a revival of the Boxing Day sales.

I have always wondered why Americans flock to the stores, en masse, the day after giving thanks for what they already have, in abundance.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

Black Friday marks the launch of the serious Christmas shopping season, and seems to be part of the intensely commercial continuum in north America that goes: Halloween - secular Christmas - St Valentine - St Patrick - secular Easter, with hardly any breaks. Oddly enough, the one that is still meaningful for some is Thanksgiving, which I think has a lower commercial profile than the others. Perhaps this year was subdued in the USA, with the dark cloud that descended over the country a few weeks before their Thanksgiving. As for us, we had a fine non-commercialised St Andrew's Day dinner with some friends the other day.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I have always wondered why Americans flock to the stores, en masse, the day after giving thanks for what they already have, in abundance.

To buy Christmas gifts.

You don't really wonder about this. You simply dislike Americans and are eager to take up any opportunity to display disdain for us.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I have always wondered why Americans flock to the stores, en masse, the day after giving thanks for what they already have, in abundance.

Count me as similarly bemused by the latest consumer binge phenomenon to have crossed the Pond. It reminds me of force feeding geese. Wonder if it was named as such to up the profile of the word Black, something which has long held negative connotations in this Country.

Re. The whole philosophy of consumerism and retail therapy. If as humans the only real way for us to function is to make shit, consume it and throw it away/recycle it, as opposed to war and destruction then I suppose we are better off pursuing the former.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Wonder if it was named as such to up the profile of the word Black, something which has long held negative connotations in this Country.

It was named based on the bookkeeping practice (or supposed bookkeeping practice) of writing debits in red and credits in black. Thence the term "in the black" meaning "with a positive balance" as opposed to "in the red" meaning "in debt."

The shops earn so much money on the day after Thanksgiving that a joke arose that that was the day they finally went into the black for the year, having been in the red up until then. Which is crap, but it is certainly true that a great percent of profitability takes place during the Christmas buying frenzy, which traditionally has started here on the day after T-day.

Then it is an easy step: Friday you go into the black = Black Friday. The associations with days like "Black Tuesday" (stock market crash of the 1929) and "Black Monday" (stock market crash of 1987) solidified the term in the public imagination.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Re. The whole philosophy of consumerism and retail therapy. If as humans the only real way for us to function is to make shit, consume it and throw it away/recycle it, as opposed to war and destruction then I suppose we are better off pursuing the former.

Reminding me of Saint Clive's opinion of the space race: Since we need to make things to employ people, we might as well make expensive hardware and throw it overboard.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...but it is certainly true that a great percent of profitability takes place during the Christmas buying frenzy, which traditionally has started here on the day after T-day.

Now of course it starts in July.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Wonder if it was named as such to up the profile of the word Black, something which has long held negative connotations in this Country.
It was named based on the bookkeeping practice (or supposed bookkeeping practice) of writing debits in red and credits in black. Thence the term "in the black" meaning "with a positive balance" as opposed to "in the red" meaning "in debt."

Actually no. The name was originally used (in the early 50s) by police in Philadelphia and a few other eastern cities to refer to the crowds and traffic congestion on the day, and that's how it was used in those places for years. It wasn't until the name started to catch on nationwide (in the late 70s–early 80s) that merchants came up with the less negative meaning of linking it to being "in the black."

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Wonder if it was named as such to up the profile of the word Black, something which has long held negative connotations in this Country.
It was named based on the bookkeeping practice (or supposed bookkeeping practice) of writing debits in red and credits in black. Thence the term "in the black" meaning "with a positive balance" as opposed to "in the red" meaning "in debt."
Actually no. The name was originally used (in the early 50s) by police in Philadelphia and a few other eastern cities to refer to the crowds and traffic congestion on the day, and that's how it was used in those places for years. It wasn't until the name started to catch on nationwide (in the late 70s–early 80s) that merchants came up with the less negative meaning of linking it to being "in the black."

According to this, "in the red" to mean "in debt" dates at least as far back as 1907.

If what you're saying is true, then people were using "in the red" for seven decades or so before anyone decided that "in the black" could mean the opposite, and that this latter shift in usage was based on police terminology, not black being an opposite colour of red, ink-wise.

That seems a little hard to imagine, at least to me, given that black is a pretty standard colour for ink, and was probably the default colour for recording financial entries.

[ 03. December 2016, 17:15: Message edited by: Stetson ]

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I have always wondered why Americans flock to the stores, en masse, the day after giving thanks for what they already have, in abundance.
To buy Christmas gifts.

Really? People engage in fist fights to buy a 100" TV for $100 instead of $1000 (or a $10 lipstick for $1) because they're looking for a Christmas gift? That has the whiff of BS about it and you know it. You've simply decided Pete dislikes Americans, and are eager to take up any opportunity to prove Americans are unworthy of such disdain.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:[quote]
Actually no. The name was originally used (in the early 50s) by police in Philadelphia and a few other eastern cities to refer to the crowds and traffic congestion on the day, and that's how it was used in those places for years. It wasn't until the name started to catch on nationwide (in the late 70s–early 80s) that merchants came up with the less negative meaning of linking it to being "in the black." [/QQUOTE]According to this, "in the red" to mean "in debt" dates at least as far back as 1907.

If what you're saying is true, then people were using "in the red" for seven decades or so before anyone decided that "in the black" could mean the opposite, and that this latter shift in usage was based on police terminology, not black being an opposite colour of red, ink-wise.

That seems a little hard to imagine, at least to me, given that black is a pretty standard colour for ink, and was probably the default colour for recording financial entries.

I didn't say merchants came up with the phrase "in the black" in the early 80s. I said they came up with the idea of linking that phrase to the term "Black Friday" in the early 80s. In other words: "The name 'Black Friday' seems to be catching on. Too bad the day got that name because of crowds and traffic. But here's an idea: What if we say it really refers to being 'in the black?' I bet that would catch on too."

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Wonder if it was named as such to up the profile of the word Black, something which has long held negative connotations in this Country.
It was named based on the bookkeeping practice (or supposed bookkeeping practice) of writing debits in red and credits in black. Thence the term "in the black" meaning "with a positive balance" as opposed to "in the red" meaning "in debt."
Actually no. The name was originally used (in the early 50s) by police in Philadelphia and a few other eastern cities to refer to the crowds and traffic congestion on the day, and that's how it was used in those places for years. It wasn't until the name started to catch on nationwide (in the late 70s–early 80s) that merchants came up with the less negative meaning of linking it to being "in the black."
According to this, "in the red" to mean "in debt" dates at least as far back as 1907.

If what you're saying is true, then people were using "in the red" for seven decades or so before anyone decided that "in the black" could mean the opposite, and that this latter shift in usage was based on police terminology, not black being an opposite colour of red, ink-wise.

That seems a little hard to imagine, at least to me, given that black is a pretty standard colour for ink, and was probably the default colour for recording financial entries.

'In the black' is a very standard term for being in credit in the bank.

It was certainly used by my family as I was growing up. in teh 60's

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I have always wondered why Americans flock to the stores, en masse, the day after giving thanks for what they already have, in abundance.
To buy Christmas gifts.
Really? People engage in fist fights to buy a 100" TV for $100 instead of $1000 (or a $10 lipstick for $1) because they're looking for a Christmas gift? That has the whiff of BS about it and you know it. You've simply decided Pete dislikes Americans, and are eager to take up any opportunity to prove Americans are unworthy of such disdain.

Of course, the vast majority of people who do go shopping on Black Friday (which group does not include me, but has some years included my wife and daughter) manage to do so without any fist fights or altercations of any kind.

And yes, most people I know who shop on Black Friday are primarily shopping for Christmas presents. They may get something for themselves too, but Christmas presents are the focus.

Besides, everyone in the States knows the best TV deals are in January, just before the Super Bowl.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:[quote]
Actually no. The name was originally used (in the early 50s) by police in Philadelphia and a few other eastern cities to refer to the crowds and traffic congestion on the day, and that's how it was used in those places for years. It wasn't until the name started to catch on nationwide (in the late 70s–early 80s) that merchants came up with the less negative meaning of linking it to being "in the black." [/QQUOTE]According to this, "in the red" to mean "in debt" dates at least as far back as 1907.

If what you're saying is true, then people were using "in the red" for seven decades or so before anyone decided that "in the black" could mean the opposite, and that this latter shift in usage was based on police terminology, not black being an opposite colour of red, ink-wise.

That seems a little hard to imagine, at least to me, given that black is a pretty standard colour for ink, and was probably the default colour for recording financial entries.
I didn't say merchants came up with the phrase "in the black" in the early 80s. I said they came up with the idea of linking that phrase to the term "Black Friday" in the early 80s. In other words: "The name 'Black Friday' seems to be catching on. Too bad the day got that name because of crowds and traffic. But here's an idea: What if we say it really refers to being 'in the black?' I bet that would catch on too."

Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
According to this, "in the red" to mean "in debt" dates at least as far back as 1907.

If what you're saying is true, then people were using "in the red" for seven decades or so before anyone decided that "in the black" could mean the opposite, and that this latter shift in usage was based on police terminology, not black being an opposite colour of red, ink-wise.

Except that "in the red"and "in the black" are not the same terms as as "Black Friday". It's a non sequitur to say the first two terms have been around for longer so the third term can't have a completely different origin. Regardless of ink colour, people weren't talking about "Black Friday" or "Red Friday" in 1907. Black is a pretty standard colour for ink, but it's a pretty standard colour for lots of other things too, not least lots of other metaphors.

(By the time the term "Black Friday" came into use, it "seems a little hard to imagine, at least to me" that any commercial enterprises were actually still recording their profits and losses in red and black ink, so it's quite easy to imagine there being another, entirely different origin for the term - including Nick's. The "black and red ink" thing strikes me as reverse engineering.)

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood.

No problem.

And sorry for the URL mess in my response to you. The sad part is that I did preview it and still didn't catch the mistake. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I have always wondered why Americans flock to the stores, en masse, the day after giving thanks for what they already have, in abundance.
To buy Christmas gifts.
Really? People engage in fist fights to buy a 100" TV for $100 instead of $1000 (or a $10 lipstick for $1) because they're looking for a Christmas gift? That has the whiff of BS about it and you know it. You've simply decided Pete dislikes Americans, and are eager to take up any opportunity to prove Americans are unworthy of such disdain.

Are you disputing that they get into fist fights or that they're looking for Christmas gifts?

Video Captures Violent Fight Between Black Friday Shoppers at Modesto Mall

As for shopping for Christmas gifts, as a retail veteran who has worked many a Christmas season, I can assure you that people do so on Black Friday.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Are you disputing that they get into fist fights or that they're looking for Christmas gifts?

I have no doubt that people fight about buying things: I was disputing that Black Friday is about buying Christmas gifts for others.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Are you disputing that they get into fist fights or that they're looking for Christmas gifts?
I have no doubt that people fight about buying things: I was disputing that Black Friday is about buying Christmas gifts for others.

No really, people do buy gifts for others on that day. Not just for others but it's the main reason. I have the (emotional) scars to prove it.

People have deadlines, they're traveling for the holidays, they're sending stuff in the mail. Thanksgiving Day weekend is early enough in the season to give people time to prepare but late enough where they don't feel they're missing out (that much) on discounts which mean a lot when you're buying not just for immediate family but extended family, friends, co-workers, etc. Also, a lot of people manage to get a four-day weekend off on Thanksgiving and it's the most free time they'll have in a while for shopping. If you're housekeeper with kids whose boss gives you Friday off then that might be the only time you have to buy Xmas gifts.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
I was disputing that Black Friday is about buying Christmas gifts for others.

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
No really, people do buy gifts for others on that day.

Those two sentences are not exclusive though, are they? Perhaps "people do buy gifts for others on that day"; that doesn't mean that Black Friday is "about buying Christmas gifts for others."

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
I was disputing that Black Friday is about buying Christmas gifts for others.

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
No really, people do buy gifts for others on that day.
Those two sentences are not exclusive though, are they? Perhaps "people do buy gifts for others on that day"; that doesn't mean that Black Friday is "about buying Christmas gifts for others."

No, it's not mutually exclusive but now I think you are starting to nit-pick.

"Buying Christmas gifts for others" is the principal motivation. All the advertising, all the sales are based and marketed on that premise. Nobody gets sheets and sheets of ads with his newspaper saying "get yourself this or that for Xmas". The implication is always buying gifts for others. That's what's shown in t.v. commercials: husbands buying rings for wives, parents buying toys for kids, etc.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Black Friday is about buying Christmas gifts. Ruth was right the first time.

Uncle Pete was ridiculously wrong to think selfish people were running out to buy stuff for themselves right after giving thanks for what they had -- never mind that they usually go around the family table and give thanks for things like Aunt Jane's cancer remission and the new baby. and each other. I don't remember anyone saying, "I'm grateful for my new shoes."
Thanksgiving is a really nice holiday, families get together for a big traditional meal and express gratitude for "the harvest," and peace with their neighbors. Charity groups make a special effort to give the same big meal to the poor and homeless. All faiths take part. What's not to like?

Black Friday shoppers are buying Christmas presents for all the reasons stated above, a day off from work close to Christmas, a good chance to get those big ticket items for the kids and hide them in the attic until the day. Lots of retail stores depend on the Christmas season to get them through the slow summer months and Black Friday is the day that can make or break them.

My son works for Walmart. He worked 2 to 11 on Black Friday and saw almost nothing but cart loads of Christmas presents coming through. He also says that half way through the evening he saw his manager smile for the first time ever.
American shoppers polled say they plan to spend an average of $929 on gifts this year. I think that's way out of hand, but don't ever call us selfish at Christmas, Uncle Pete.

Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I have always wondered why Americans flock to the stores, en masse, the day after giving thanks for what they already have, in abundance.
To buy Christmas gifts.

Well sorry Ruth, but Black Friday is just ridiculously early for buying christmas gifts. You 'muricans' should be staid an sober like the rest of us and leave it to a mad panic on christmas eve, wrestling with other shoppers in the shopping aisles for the last my little pony on the shelf.

That's how its done.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Snopes. Don't thank me all at once.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
No, it's not mutually exclusive but now I think you are starting to nit-pick.

I'm really not. The initial suggestion was that Black Friday is about buying presents. I don't believe it is. That's not nit-picking.

quote:
"Buying Christmas gifts for others" is the principal motivation. All the advertising, all the sales are based and marketed on that premise.

There you go with the non sequiturs again. Whatever the advertising may say is absolutely not the principal motivation - indeed, it's probably the very last motivation of the advertising and marketing or of the "shop-frst" itself. The principal motivation of the advertising is not to encourage people to buy "Christmas gifts for others"; it is to encourage people to spend money - on anything and in as large amounts as possible. You really think the advertisers care two hoots about your cutely "buying gifts for others"?

quote:
Nobody gets sheets and sheets of ads with his newspaper saying "get yourself this or that for Xmas". The implication is always buying gifts for others. That's what's shown in t.v. commercials: husbands buying rings for wives, parents buying toys for kids, etc.

And so that, of course, is what people do? They rush out and kick the shit out of other people in Walmart in order to buy thousand dollar TVs as gifts for their kids and cookers and fridges and entertainment systems as gifts for their husbands/wives/grannies? Because the sheets of ads tell them that's what they're doing?

I'm hoping you're just being difficult, because otherwise you're the person who buys "Milk Tray" because you really believe the lady loves them.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Few of us know what Milk Tray is, but we do buy the big screen TV as a "whole family," gift. I think the refrigerator "gift," was for the lady of the house from her husband, in the 1950's, but these days he wont get away with that with most women. Some may want it though, so that's who is targeted. All the merchants are trying to market their stuff as presents right now and some will say things like "Don't forget to buy something for yourself!" but for the most part, it's normal gifts for other people.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Every year the newspaper shows pictures of Black Friday shoppers with cart-loads of the latest toys (as well as jumbo-screen televisions). I've always assumed that they're gifts for kids and grandkids and that the adults are not running home from WalMart to play with their new electronic toys. (I also hope that the kids and grandkids don't look at the newspaper and see what Mommy and Daddy have just bought.)

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I stand corrected regarding "in the black".

The idea that people are getting into fist fights over Tickle Me Elmos for themselves is ridiculous. Whatever anybody here may think about what's too early for gift shopping, that is in fact what Black Friday is promoted as, and in my half century plus as an American, that's the only thing I've ever heard anybody give as its purpose.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...that is in fact what Black Friday is promoted as,

And "what it's promoted as" and "what it is" must be the same thing because... umm... the promoters say so? Whatever.

You want to believe the "bargain 'fridge fest" that is Black Friday is really about buying presents for your loved ones, rather than a(nother) cynical manipulation of consumers, then go ahead. Ignorance, they say, is bliss; enjoy your bliss.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Yes, it really is mostly for buying gifts for other people, then for yourself, then for buying things that you wouldn't be able to afford at other times of the year.

It used to be that Thanksgiving Day had lots of sales. Stereotypically, men would watch sports; women would want to get away from the kitchen and the men; and people would want to get away from difficult relatives and guests. Plus people who were alone might want to get out and do something. There was some good to this arrangement. It was a safety valve. And people who could afford to buy something could get a head start on presents for Hannukah, Christmas, and other holidays.

The T-Day shopping hours expanded, and were added to the various configurations of After Thanksgiving Sales. (Black Friday and the weekend.) It all flowed together into one big sale. People getting out of the house, shopping happily, grumpily, wearily. Stores pushing the boundaries so far that too many people lined up in the cold, for too many hours, anxious to get THE item(s) at outrageously low prices, and building up lots of irritation. So when a store opens, all of that floods in, and people have melt-downs. (Also happens for bridal gown sales.) And the stores make beaucoup bucks.

The store employees and seasonal workers are caught in the middle. Some stores are going back to being firmly closed on T-Day, so that everyone has a chance to be with family/friends.

There's also Small Business Saturday, for supporting local shops, craftspeople, and such. Green Friday, for (IIRC) donating to environmental causes. And, of course, Cyber Monday, which is an online form of Black Friday. Then there's Giving Tuesday (?), for donating. There's also a Buy Nothing Day, but I'm not sure when that is.

And, of course, there are "Christmas In July" sales.

So, class, it's about giving, and receiving, and buying, and donating, and wishing, and greed, and making beaucoup bucks.

AND whatever holiday you may celebrate. Have A Happy!

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Doc Tor--

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Snopes. Don't thank me all at once.

Thanks!

Hadn't heard that theory.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

This is probably chicken and egg, but my main motivation for buying stuff on Black Friday is that's when the decent appliances/beds/big ticket items we desperately need come down to an affordable price. To date our fridge, stove, washer, dryer, TV, and mattress set have been purchased on Black Fridays (one per year). If we had bought them at other times we would have had to settle for paying more for worse. And I do know others who take the same planning approach.

But none of us go out and knock people down to get stuff. Why not reserve the sucker on the internet while you eat pie?

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
No, it's not mutually exclusive but now I think you are starting to nit-pick.
I'm really not.

Yes, you really are.

Yes, it's clear you don't believe that Black Friday is "about" buying gifts. (I question whether it's "about" anything—it's not like it's a holiday after all. It's a convergence of sales.) But while the majority of Americans on here have said, speaking from experience, that is indeed both how it is promoted (yes, we all understand how advertising works) and how most shoppers here actually approach Black Friday—that most are motivated by gift buying—you've just gone with "I don't believe it." Apparently, that belief is based on stories of things like people coming to fisticuffs in Wal-Mart—the kind of thing that makes the news but is relatively rare.

It's fine to say Black Friday is about buying and selling. Most buyers are motivated by the desire to buy gifts, and sellers are motivated by what will get the buyers in and spending money. Beyond me how given that, it's not "about" gift buying.

Feel free not to believe it. Meanwhile, I'll believe you're picking at nits.

[ 04. December 2016, 02:42: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

I feel bemused. Am I, and, like, everyone I know in a personal way, the only people who were bombarded by an onslaught of anti- BF "Keep your ass at home and let the crazy happen without you" counter- propaganda? Because, literally everyone I know stayed home and ate leftover stuffing while proudly flipping commerce the bird on November 25. And congratulating each other for it.

The closest I got to Black Friday was watching the hilarious episode of "Superstore" honoring the day, and listening to my twenty year old two- year retail veteran nephew brag about his own war stories. Stayed my ass at home, made a plate of yummy stuff covered in gravy, kept warm. This has been the standing Alves tradition for decades.

Fuck sales. It's not like holiday sales are restricted to one day. Sometime within the next two weeks I will get my shopping done, in one big swoop, list of attendees in hand. Christmas Eve and Christmas Day will be taken up with actual family gatherings.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Americans explain and explain again the reality of life here, and yet we are not believed. Is there a surfeit of commercialism in the US? Yes. Do a tiny number of people engage in behavior that becomes fodder for news stations on what is otherwise frequently a slow news day? Yes. Is that the sum total of the national character? No.

So to those who persist in posting anti-American BS: fuck off.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

And this is my fucking frustration too. Why aren't we believed? We fucking live here.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Masha must know better than we do. We're too close to the action to be objective witnesses. Or some thing like that.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Ditto my compatriots, just above.

Telegram to non-American Shipmates:

This has being going on for years, in different forms STOP Would you like us to comment as experts on YOUR countries? STOP That would make some past pond wars on the Ship look like playing Chutes & Ladders STOP Hosts and Admins--no, we're not doing that STOP But we ARE freaking frustrated STOP please everyone just STOP

Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
You want to believe the "bargain 'fridge fest" that is Black Friday is really about buying presents for your loved ones, rather than a(nother) cynical manipulation of consumers, then go ahead. Ignorance, they say, is bliss; enjoy your bliss.

In part, it is a cynical manipulation of consumers. Or the frenzy of retailers competing for the money of consumers. Much like the Christmas, Boxing Day, New Year's, Back to School sales to come.

On the other hand, there's no particular moral high ground to saying "I'll avoid the sales and only buy at full price." Well maybe there is, but that's daft.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Like I said, we won't be hurting for "fantastic price slashes!" this month.

Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Like I said, we won't be hurting for "fantastic price slashes!" this month.

And $1 deposit now, with no payments until 2018 on selected items

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
playing Chutes & Ladders

I think you'll find that's 'Snakes and Ladders'.

Bloody Yanks.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Fuckin' Redcoats.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:

Video Captures Violent Fight Between Black Friday Shoppers at Modesto Mall

As for shopping for Christmas gifts, as a retail veteran who has worked many a Christmas season, I can assure you that people do so on Black Friday.

Keep it classy, Modesto.

Probably not saying anything you don't know, Pancho, but the fact that this dustup happened in Modesto, CA is less about general American habits and more about the fact that getting in some ridiculous brutal throw down over a pair of Gortex gloves is one of the ways to relieve the mind- numbing boredom of living in Modesto, CA.

As to your " As To..." Seriously, all y'all search Netflix for episodes of " Superstore". For y'all Brits it will be a nice slice of Americana ( think a Yankee version of "Dinnerladies") and for any American who has worked in retail, it it so cathartic.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
playing Chutes & Ladders
I think you'll find that's 'Snakes and Ladders'.

Bloody Yanks.

Pssst...I did that on purpose! [Razz]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And this is my fucking frustration too. Why aren't we believed? We fucking live here.

Seriously! I thought once I said, "My son works at Walmart," everyone would bow to my retail authority.

What Kelly said about ongoing sales. OMG yes. We have a local department store that sends out a ten dollars off coupon early in the season and then every time you buy something, they give you another one, so that you feel like you must go back. I got caught up in that one Christmas season and was buying stuff like men's pajamas which I knew full well they did not want.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
You want to believe the "bargain 'fridge fest" that is Black Friday is really about buying presents for your loved ones, rather than a(nother) cynical manipulation of consumers, then go ahead. Ignorance, they say, is bliss; enjoy your bliss.

Sorry, that dog just won't hunt, unless your point is we're all mindless automatons who do what marketers tell us to do. The problem is that you're the only one talking about what Black Friday is "about." Sure, call it a cynical manipulation by marketers. But marketers wouldn't use this particular approach (buy gifts for the people you love) unless they knew it would resonate with what people actually want to do.

It went like this: Uncle Pete (with a noticeable whiff of snark) asked why Americans shop the day after Thanksgiving—not why merchants have sales on BF, but why Americans take advantage of those sales.

RuthW accurately said Americans do so to buy Christmas presents. (No, no one will claim that's why every American who shops on BF does so, but we're all saying that's far and away the main reason.).

You called BS on RuthW's statement. And your call was nit-picking BS.

[ 04. December 2016, 12:13: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

As an American consumer my idea is:

I am in sole charge of my money. You may offer me deals, create an enticing store display, ply me with free chocolate samples, get down on your knees and plead, or pelt me with emails. These may or may not have any effect, and I am not obliged to pay attention to any of it.

I reserve to myself, solely, the right to reject your offerings. It is not my duty to explain to you why. If it is your politics, your advertised prejudices against some group or cause, your location, your lighting fixtures, your annoying advertisements, or your prices -- you figure it out. Not my job to help you.

Seasonal issues have no impact, except when they do. If the cat chews up one of my gloves I may be driven to go buy another pair. If I need some shirts I may well take advantage of your post Thanksgiving sale. But I decide. Offer whatever you want. I am throwing away your advertising inserts and turning off your commercials.

I am not driven by price, but by what I want. Give me exactly what I want and I will buy it. Close is not good enough; my desires are fanatically precise. However, my time is too valuable for me to tell you about them. Figure it out, or not.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
It went like this:
Uncle Pete (with a noticeable whiff of snark) asked why Americans shop the day after Thanksgiving—not why merchants have sales on BF, but why Americans take advantage of those sales.

RuthW accurately said Americans do so to buy Christmas presents. (No, no one will claim that's why every American who shops on BF does so, but we're all saying that's far and away the main reason.)

Nice try but your "It went like this:" is a pretty slanted summary. Try this for size:

Uncle Pete asked (with a noticeable whiff of snark) not why Americans take advantage of those sales but why "they flock to the stores, en masse, the day after giving thanks for what they already have, in abundance."

RuthW said (with a bucket and a half of snark) "to buy Christmas presents" but was more concerned with knifing Pete in the gut for his perceived anti-Americanism.

quote:
The problem is that you're the only one talking about what Black Friday is "about."

"The reason people do X" strikes me as being much the same as "What X is about." That would mean both Pete and Ruth were "talking about what Black Friday is 'about'" before I commented, since when Poncho, Twilight, Goldfish Stew, Pigwidgeon, Mousethief, Golden Key and Lamb Chopped all talked about "what Black Friday is about". One post on the thread, I note, says:

quote:
It's fine to say Black Friday is about buying and selling.

I wonder who wrote that?

Then the thread descended into a general whine about perceived cross-pond insults, before Twilight told us how she had "got caught up in that one Christmas season and was buying stuff like men's pajamas which I knew full well they did not want". I know exactly what she means. It's as if we're all mindless automatons who do what marketers tell us to do...

quote:
...unless your point is we're all mindless automatons who do what marketers tell us to do.

Oh! Fancy that!

And you think we're not? Fine, you're entitled to your opinion and you're entitled to express it. Disagreeing with your opinion isn't "nitpicking"; it's disagreeing with you. Get over it.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Fuck yourself, Masha.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Fuck yourself, Masha.

Oh my. See how I quake with fear as I'm torn apart by the legendary intelligence and incisive wit of the rodent. Not.

Are you going to threaten to beat me up the playground next, Moosethief?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

You're as thin-skinned as Donald Trump. Never stop.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

Not really anything to get over, Misha. My life goes on just fine, regardless of whether you know what you're talking about here. Bless your heart.*

And yes, I did say "It's fine to say Black Friday is about buying and selling." I was trying to work with your fixation on what the day is "about," even though I also said I don't think that word really fits. But it seems, for some reason, to matter to you.

As for RuthW's snark, it came after she said people go shopping to buy gifts. But your slant or mine, Uncle Pete's question was still about what motivates shoppers, not merchants and advertisers, as was RuthW's answer. Nothing asking what Black Friday is "about." Nice try yourself, though.

For the record, I don't care what opinion you hold—though yes, I completely disagree with the opinion that we're automatons. And it's not your opinion itself that's nit-picking. It's anchoring that opinion on some idea that what the day is "about" is linked solely to merchants' motives that's nit-picking.

* Yes, strong whiff of snark there.

[ 04. December 2016, 19:34: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
RuthW said (with a bucket and a half of snark) "to buy Christmas presents" but was more concerned with knifing Pete in the gut for his perceived anti-Americanism.

"Perceived"?

[Killing me]

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Fuck yourself, Masha.

Wouldn't that be Misha?

Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :

Black Friday is not just about Christmas shopping, it's generally perceived to be about Christmas shopping for those of lesser means. People are not lining up for "door busters" at Saks and Neiman Marcus at 6 p.m. on Thursday.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Black Friday is not just about Christmas shopping, it's generally perceived to be about Christmas shopping for those of lesser means. People are not lining up for "door busters" at Saks and Neiman Marcus at 6 p.m. on Thursday.

But Black Friday is not the same thing as the absurd door-buster sales. They shouldn't be equated. Lots of people go shopping at other places than the big box stores with their $1 refrigerators. People may shop at Saks who turn up their noses at the campers outside the Walmart.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

I agree with you Simontoad.

Black Friday evokes the aftermath of horrific bushfires, burnt houses and fire service volunteers. But, like Christmas, commercial interests have no qualms in bastardising it.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Re the association with Australian wildfires:

Maybe get in touch with whatever retailers' associations there are? Write someone at a store's corporate office? Start a Twitter campaign?

FWIW.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

Yeah, I reckon such a move would be successful - the social media thing - to stop it. I might ask a tweenie to do it - one of those passionate young ones. My style is more just to slag off about it from the couch.

The Black Friday sale thing is egregious in the extreme though, but only in an Australian context as far as I can tell.

It's almost but not quite as bad as a Casino building a Christmas display to rival the Christmas windows of a department store so that it can use family values to help destroy families. Awwww, how cute! The department store in question has been doing its Christmas windows since 1956.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0