Thread: We can't have Muslims celebrating Australia Day Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
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quote:
An Australia Day billboard featuring two girls in hijabs has been removed from a site in Melbourne after threats were made to the company behind it.
The digital sign featured rolling images of people from various cultural backgrounds, and one picture of two Muslim girls in front of the Australian flag sparked furious debate among social media users.
Hundreds of people criticised the image for being “too politically correct” or not a true reflection of Australia Day.
Article here.
FFS. Sometimes I truly despair of some of the people in this country.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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Welcome back, even if this had to occur to draw you from your absence.
Poor lamb producers - not so omg since they were lambasted from the other side for excluding those from the diverse backgrounds who inhabit tis land. Petty-minded bigots is a mild description of those protesting.
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on
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Up in Sydney there have been many cases of people being told to go back where they came from. Sometimes accompanied by violence. Not just directed to women in hijab but to others obviously of a different ethnicity. Often this happens on public transport. Terrible.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
Up in Sydney there have been many cases of people being told to go back where they came from.
If those statements are from aboriginal people then it's unpleasant, but possibly justified. From anyone else it's just hypocrisy - probably associated with stupidity and ignorance.
As for the poster, that takes stupidity to new levels. There is a problem with social cohesion with some communities perceived as not integrating with other parts of society. Whether that perception reflects reality or not, deciding that some people can't celebrate a national event like Australia Day is the sort of thing that will act towards alienating those people from society. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, another bit of idiocy that will be telling young muslims that they aren't really welcome, and potentially driving them towards radicalism.
Bloody idiots.
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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I wish the company had the courage to ignore the threats and not let the racists win, but I guess they have to look after their employees ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
These idiots shouldn't be able to ruin things for everyone else.
Even when people just try to make Australia Day more inclusive there is trouble. The City of Fremantle has decided to put their celebrations on another date so not to exclude Aboriginal people (the 26th of January is Invasion Day to them)and this caused major backlash too, even from Western Australian politicians.
It also really annoys me that people who can't cope with a picture of Muslims on an Australia Day billboard are the first to falsely accuse Muslims of being offended by the Australian National Anthem or people eating pork. Yet they get offended every time someone speaks a language other than English, dresses in non-Western fashion or doesn't like to get drunk.
I don't want to 'celebrate' at all this year.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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So... Schroedinger's Muslim wants to celebrate Australia Day *and* is offended by the Australian flag? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
We have xenophobic nutters over here, too. You have my deepest sympathy, fwiw.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Fucking morons who think that "Australian" is a race and not a nationality.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Fucking morons who think that "Australian" is a race and not a nationality.
[Putting aside the fact that 'race' is a very dubious concept anyway].
Of course, an argument could be made for an "Australian race". The problem for the morons is that any such argument would mean that they are not part of that Australian race. Because the only plausible candidates for racial Australians would be the Aboriginal people and not the recent immigrants from Europe.
Fucking morons indeed.
Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on
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I hate all the hypocritical patriotic smarm that emerges at this time of the year just so shops can sell bunting and politicians can do their token multicultural photo shoots.
I am truly thankful every day that I live in this place. Every day is an "Australia Day". Our family will not be flag waving on Jan 26 nor attending dubious gastronomic events where the summer heat may well cause the food to be off and the drinks warm. It is so stupid to schedule country wide "Crank up the barbie" parties in total fire ban weather. Ditto for fireworks. The indigenous in our family find it extremely painful. The immigrants in our family find it embarrassing and uncomfortable.
Sometimes I wonder if we are the only ones going Bah Humbug. Celebrate Australia? All the time. Australia Day - no way.
Fortunately we have a family birthday to celebrate instead.
[ 18. January 2017, 05:06: Message edited by: Banner Lady ]
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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I agree Invasion Day does tend to bring out the particularly parochial performance of Aussie pride and unpleasantness. It's pretty dire. In my neck of the woods, they are fighting a battle to shift the celebration to a less politically charged day - two days later. You know - a day the country wasn't invaded by colonisers?
Anyway, re the OP - all may not be lost.
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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From little things - big things grow ...
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
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I was initially amazed at the reaction to the shift of day for the celebration so it didn't fall on Jan 26...then I thought on it and was not surprised.
And good news re your links DK: at least there is some sanity out there.
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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Good to see you posting here, Ian. I haven't heard from you for ages. Not that I am here much.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
I agree Invasion Day does tend to bring out the particularly parochial performance of Aussie pride and unpleasantness. It's pretty dire. In my neck of the woods, they are fighting a battle to shift the celebration to a less politically charged day - two days later. You know - a day the country wasn't invaded by colonisers?
Anyway, re the OP - all may not be lost.
That remark - "You know - a day that wasn't..." shows the futility and stupidity of the attempted shift.
If the day is going to shift, it's going to have to shift to a day that means something. Not to a day that has no significance in the nation's history. Can you imagine? We have fireworks on this day to commemorate nothing happening. Or just because it's time for a booze up.
Other countries would find it hilarious. If you want to see political correctness gone mad, this is a real example of it actually happening. Hey, let's shift the date so that people aren't offended... but just a tiny bit so as not to inconvenience anyone too much and so no one really forgets the connection to the "real" date that caused the celebration to be at this time of year.
If people want to shift the date, do it bloody properly. Because being a country that celebrates its national day on a deliberately non-significant date is pathetic.
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Fucking morons who think that "Australian" is a race and not a nationality.
It sounds like you have people there who want to Make Australia Great Again the same way many of Trump's followers want to Make America Great Again--make it once again the White Man's country.
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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orfeo lost me at the point I read "political correctness gone mad." Every time I read that when it is said without irony, my eyes simultaneously glaze over and roll so hard they almost fall out of my skull. And another douchebag gets its wings.
There is actually no issue with moving the day at all. From 1935-1988 it was celebrated as a long weekend, and so was not necessarily the day of Jan 26. The idea that the day itself is sacrosanct, and we simply have to have celebrations on that day because it is meaningful, is horseshit.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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Australia looks to have about 3 or more different independence days. Why not go with 4th December, commemorating Royal Assent of the Australia Act confirming Australian independence from the UK in 1985?
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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The good news out of all this has been that the poster's received lots of publicity, has not been removed and I gather is being more widely used by the advertiser. No knuckling down to the protest, but rather the opposite.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
There is actually no issue with moving the day at all.
There is clearly, however, an issue with your READING COMPREHENSION.
The reason I think it's political correctness gone mad isn't because I have a problem with moving the day. The reason I think it's gone mad is because it's completely delusional to think that moving celebrations by 2 days or to the nearest weekend fixes the problem! You're still setting the date by direct reference to 26 January, and pretending you're not!
I mean, do you actually think the Indigenous community is stupid enough to fall for that?
It's mad because it's not a genuine change at all. It's mad because it's basically trying not to inconvenience anyone in the vague hope of hoodwinking those who object to commemorating 26 January 1788.
This is perhaps the only time I've used "political correctness gone mad", ever. And it's not because I think changing is wrong. It's because I think pretending to change while not actually addressing the issue is wrong. It's because I think the change doesn't go nearly far enough. It's because I think shifting a couple of days is blatant tokenism. It's because I think it's a really bad case of pretending to care about Indigenous people while not actually giving a shit about their concerns.
[ 21. January 2017, 08:12: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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Yes, it seems to me that if you're going to change the celebration then you actually change it. One option, of course, is to simply not have a national day at all. Or, change it to mark a different point in Australian history - there must have been a date when the various colonies on the continent united to be an identifiable nation, a day when the Australian nation became independent of the British, some point when the legal rights of the indigenous population were officially recognised as equal to the immigrant population and all Australians became equal under the law etc. Or, you could choose a natural event - is there a day when the Southern Cross is highest in the sky?
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, it seems to me that if you're going to change the celebration then you actually change it. One option, of course, is to simply not have a national day at all. Or, change it to mark a different point in Australian history - there must have been a date when the various colonies on the continent united to be an identifiable nation, a day when the Australian nation became independent of the British, some point when the legal rights of the indigenous population were officially recognised as equal to the immigrant population and all Australians became equal under the law etc. Or, you could choose a natural event - is there a day when the Southern Cross is highest in the sky?
Federation was on 1 January, 1901. So there's that, but people won't go for it because New Year's Day is already a holiday. The earlier steps could conceivably be used (referendums in 1899 but apparently they were all on different dates, passage by UK Parliament 5 July 1900, royal assent 9 July 1900).
Anzac Day (25 April) has become deeply popular, but it suffers from a couple of flaws. One is that it's shared with New Zealand. Another is that it's about war (and not only that, but a horribly flawed campaign where, begging your pardon, the British leadership got us massacred).
The Eureka Stockade (3 December 1854) has some resonance.
The referendum that decided Aboriginals might be people after all was on 27 May 1967.
Another option is 9 May, because all three of our Parliaments were opened on that date (in 1901, 1927 and 1988). But that might just be because I'm a legal nerd.
So yeah, there are at least some other possibilities that involve a genuine move to mark something else.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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The Eureka Stockade is pretty much a marginally recognised date, and none of the others has any at all.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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If someone hadn't decided it would be a good thing to mark, the date of the arrival of the first bunch of convicts to a penal colony would also have been a marginally recognised date.
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
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Bring on the Republic, and Republic Day? I'd vote for July, August or September...scarcity of public holidays around there [at least in NSW if you are not a banker]. Always seems like a long stretch.
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
There is actually no issue with moving the day at all.
There is clearly, however, an issue with your READING COMPREHENSION.
Nice. Take a big post, only respond to one sentence. Honest.
quote:
The reason I think it's political correctness gone mad isn't because I have a problem with moving the day. The reason I think it's gone mad is because it's completely delusional to think that moving celebrations by 2 days or to the nearest weekend fixes the problem! You're still setting the date by direct reference to 26 January, and pretending you're not!
Not pretending anything of the sort, deadshit. Not fixing the public holiday is the issue there. I never suggested that moving the date two days would break the connection to invasion day itself. That would be an attempt to whitewash. Rather, moving to 28 Jan precisely acknowledges that something very significant happened on the day, and that we are choosing not to celebrate on that day because we know it is painful for many in our country. Compassion, not "political correctness" (that old terror of the privileged white) at all.
Don't read your idiotic thesis into my words. Leave it out. That's where it belongs.
quote:
I mean, do you actually think the Indigenous community is stupid enough to fall for that?
As it happens, I don't. No one does. Fremantle council consulted with the Noongar community before taking the decision. No one is trying to fool anyone. So much for straw men.
quote:
It's mad because it's not a genuine change at all. It's mad because it's basically trying not to inconvenience anyone in the vague hope of hoodwinking those who object to commemorating 26 January 1788.
No one is trying to hoodwink anyone, you burke. No one is suggesting Jan 26 didn't happen. Just that we stop celebrating the day it happened.
It's mad for one reason only - you're mad about it.
quote:
This is perhaps the only time I've used "political correctness gone mad", ever. And it's not because I think changing is wrong. It's because I think pretending to change while not actually addressing the issue is wrong. It's because I think the change doesn't go nearly far enough. It's because I think shifting a couple of days is blatant tokenism. It's because I think it's a really bad case of pretending to care about Indigenous people while not actually giving a shit about their concerns.
Spoken from a position of ignorance. As I've made clear, Freo council have spoken to the local community about it.
This is essentially the same as saying that because something is symbolic, and cannot on its own change everything, we shouldn't do it at all. By which logic, none of the sorry business that has happened should have. Is that your contention?
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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And now the racist nut jobs are turning up in Fremantle too http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/reclaim-australia-planning-freo-australia-day-rally-20170121-gtw1a2.html
[ 22. January 2017, 11:05: Message edited by: Mili ]
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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The Reclaim Australia spokesbeing is suspiciously white.
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on
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Orfeo wrote:
Anzac Day (25 April) has become deeply popular, but it suffers from a couple of flaws. One is that it's shared with New Zealand. Another is that it's about war (and not only that, but a horribly flawed campaign where, begging your pardon, the British leadership got us massacred).
Sorry, Orfeo,but I don't have a deep knowledge of Australian culture, being a benighted Canadian. Why would sharing 25 April with New Zealand be a problem? Is there mutual antipathy of which I'm unaware?
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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No, there's not mutual antipathy, but to claim something as your "national day" in those circumstances would raise eyebrows.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Nice. Take a big post, only respond to one sentence. Honest.
ROFL. You think because I only quoted one sentence, I was only responding to one sentence? Did you reading comprehension not involve noticing the relationship of the rest of my post to your arguments?
I'm sorry but that's just an absurd complaint in this instance. I addressed lots of your post. I had it open in another tab at the time. I simply didn't feel the need to quote it all. What purpose would it have served, other than requiring everyone to scroll down further?
As for the rest of your next post, it consists of exactly the doublespeak I'm arguing against. Stuff like this (oh look, I'm quoting MORE of your post, aren't I good!).
quote:
Rather, moving to 28 Jan precisely acknowledges that something very significant happened on the day, and that we are choosing not to celebrate on that day because we know it is painful for many in our country.
You're still celebrating the invasion. There's some kind of self-delusion involved in thinking that Indigenous people will be fine with celebrating the invasion so long as you celebrate it sometime other than the anniversary.
quote:
No one is trying to hoodwink anyone, you burke. No one is suggesting Jan 26 didn't happen. Just that we stop celebrating the day it happened.
You are celebrating the day it happened. You're just celebrating it on a different day.
And it's not "burke", you berk.
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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If you read the information about the Fremantle event they say that the 28th is not a set date. Part of the reason they are having the event is to start a discussion of if there is a more inclusive date and way to celebrate being Australian. They also say they are not against people celebrating on the 26th if they want to. As an earlier poster said, Australia Day has not always been on the 26th of January anyway. It's convenient because it's in summer when it's nice to have a bbq, but no reason most people would care if it was changed.
As to Reclaim Australia - yes it's ironic that they called themselves that because they want to reclaim Australia for white people from their stereotyped idea of Muslims and non-white immigrants, but are now protesting against Aboriginal people who white people stole the country from. They are too stupid to see how hypocritical they are being.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Just for the record, I am well aware of the history of the date of the Australia Day holiday, having been born on the Australia Day holiday.
So you can all stop educating me on how sometimes we celebrate 26 January 1788 on a day other than 26 January. We are still celebrating 26 January 1788.
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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Here's a history of the day, it's pretty long but very informative and balanced. http://www.australiaday.org.au/australia-day/history/beginnings/
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Orfeo wrote:
Anzac Day (25 April) has become deeply popular, but it suffers from a couple of flaws. One is that it's shared with New Zealand. Another is that it's about war (and not only that, but a horribly flawed campaign where, begging your pardon, the British leadership got us massacred).
Sorry, Orfeo,but I don't have a deep knowledge of Australian culture, being a benighted Canadian. Why would sharing 25 April with New Zealand be a problem? Is there mutual antipathy of which I'm unaware?
NZ commemorates ANZAC Day on 25th of April, but our National Day is Waitangi Day on February 6, which is the anniversary of the signing of the
Treaty of Waitangi/Te Tiriti o Waitangi which is our founding document.
I think it would be inappropriate to share a national day for the reasons Orfeo mentioned, and also the countries have different histories. In both cases the majority of settlers may have come from Britain, the but original inhabitants were totally different peoples.
Huia
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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I can't see the point of changing the date for Australia day. No matter which day was chosen, someone woud be unhappy. And then again the choice has to have some significance. I have a grand daughter with a birthday on Christmas Day and the family opined that her birthday should be celebrated on a different day. She very strongly declined as she quite rightly claims her birthday as December 25th.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I can't see the point of changing the date for Australia day. No matter which day was chosen, someone woud be unhappy. And then again the choice has to have some significance. I have a grand daughter with a birthday on Christmas Day and the family opined that her birthday should be celebrated on a different day. She very strongly declined as she quite rightly claims her birthday as December 25th.
I think the whole purpose of Lent, the abstention for which once also included sexual abstention, was to prevent people being born on Christmas.
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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orfeo - now you're not only ignoring the post, but the argument. And I don't any longer think it's because you're dishonest. I actually think it'd because you're an idiot.
My point, which is quite clear, is that there is a significant Day, but that we are choosing not to celebrate on the day because ofbwhatbit means to our Indigenous brothers and sisters. Celebrating not the day, but an act of inclusion.
You've ignored the stuff about sorry business, because you can't address it, clearly. You've also ignored the fact that Indigenous people themselves were consulted about the change, and many support it.
And the irony of being accused of doublespeak by someone who used the term "political correctness gone mad" is risible.
And o used "burke" very deliberately - from a sandgroper, on reference to one of our most corrupt former premiers, IRS an insult we reserve for a special breed of dickhead.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
My point, which is quite clear, is that there is a significant Day, but that we are choosing not to celebrate on the day because ofbwhatbit means to our Indigenous brothers and sisters. Celebrating not the day, but an act of inclusion.
And my point, which is equally clear, is that "celebrate on the day" and "celebrate the day" are two different things, and that moving the celebration does not really change the nature of the celebration.
"not celebrate on the day" and "not celebrate the day" are not synonyms, no matter how much you keep trying to equate them.
People frequently have a birthday party on a day other than their birthday. No-one says that they're having a party to mark 2 days after their birthday, or 3 days before it. They're still celebrating their birthday.
Which is why I think the last sentence I've quoted is bunkum. I simply do not believe that something other than the day is being celebrated. And just because some Indigenous people took part in the same woolly thinking you're engaging in does not somehow prevent it from being woolly thinking. I'd be pretty confident of finding different Indigenous people who reacted exactly the same way I'm reacting.
[ 24. January 2017, 13:13: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Really, whether you like it or not your argument looks like a claim that some Indigenous people said it was fine to celebrate the invasion so long as you didn't do it on Invasion Day.
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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*is an insult. Not sure how IRS got involved.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Oh what the hell. I might as well be specific about one of my personal sources of skepticism here.
I was born on January 28. I frequently celebrate my birthday on January 26. In many years it's the closest convenient date for a family gathering, as it's guaranteed none of us are working. Being a public holiday.
So what's happening here is that while I know damn well shifting from January 28 to January 26 is nothing more than a matter of convenience that doesn't change the nature of my birthday celebration, you're trying to persuade me that changing from January 26 to January 28 is going to do something to meaningfully dissociate the celebration from Invasion Day.
Is it any wonder I'm not buying this?
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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Honestly, I don't know why I bother. But, I do.
This is not "wooly thinking". It is not equating or conflating anything. To just ignore the day would simply be to pretend nothing happened. Something did happen - the start of an invasion and genocide.
If you want to have a discussion about whether or not "celebrating" is the right thing to do, then that is probably worthwhile (keeping in mind that we have "celebrants" at funerals, I suppose). A lot more worthwhile than anything you've said on this thread so far. But forgetting what happened cannot be an option. You are arguing, which you've done from the beginning of our dialogue, that I am advocating simply moving the day, so as to be politically correct. I am not. I don't know how else, or in what other - perhaps smaller - words I can explain that to you. This is about remembering what happened, acknowledging it is a painful day, and including Indigenous people by not celebrating that day.
And your second post is beneath contempt - just another attempt to fit my argument into the procrustrean bed you've already decided to force it into. You can fuck off with that. Burke.
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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I don't know what the actual fuck you think your birthday has to do with this, but it's a really awful analogy. Presumably, the people in your life are happy you were born, and celebrate it with you. They will do it whenever you choose to do it. If one's birthday is on a Tuesday, one might celebrate on a Saturday for convenience. There is no dissociation.
"Changing the date" (now a movement that has spawned a couple of songs, and no doubt its own hashtag or whatever the kids are calling them) is not the same. No one - no one - is thinking that people are going to simply forget about the significance of Jan 26 because the commemoration is now two days later. Further, no one I know of is suggesting this is something that is simply going to happen with no interpretive or communicative or educative work - as if the date will simply change with no further explanation or argument offered. It isn't the same as changing something for convenience' sake. I brought up the fact in an earlier post that the day used to be celebrated/remembered etc on the nearest Monday only to indicate that the date itself can and has been moved in the past, so anyone claiming that it can't be moved is simply wrong.
Posted by Hiro's Leap (# 12470) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
I don't know what the actual fuck you think your birthday has to do with this, but it's a really awful analogy.
It's not an analogy, it's a nifty ruse for getting cake and beer.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
To just ignore the day would simply be to pretend nothing happened. Something did happen - the start of an invasion and genocide.
If you want to have a discussion about whether or not "celebrating" is the right thing to do, then that is probably worthwhile
I'm not reading any suggestion that the day be ignored. The issue ISTM from across the other side of the world is that 26th January is a day chosen to celebrate the founding of Australia, but it is also a day to commemorate the fact that with that came an invasion of British people and the genocide of the indigenous people. Keeping Australia Day associated with the 26th January (which includes any change to the nearest Monday for convenience) will mean that the holiday will need to combine both aspects. Which is always going to be a tension - but perhaps it is good to have them in tension to make sure people don't forget that the establishment of Australia as a nation came at great cost to the indigenous people.
An alternative is to divide the events, keeping the 26th January as a commemoration of the invasion and genocide of the indigenous people and selecting another appropriate date in Australian history for the celebration of Australia. Or, another alternative is to ditch the idea of a national day altogether.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
An alternative is to divide the events, keeping the 26th January as a commemoration of the invasion and genocide of the indigenous people and selecting another appropriate date in Australian history for the celebration of Australia. Or, another alternative is to ditch the idea of a national day altogether.
I was thinking along those lines. I suppose you could say that there's no national day for the UK - the Scots have St Andrew, the Welsh St David, Battle of the Boyne for Northern Ireland, but I can't think of any one day for England or for the UK as a whole. Any other countries fall into that category?
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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This map suggests that Denmark also manages without a national day.
But, perhaps the UK will select 23rd June ... commemoration of the day we decided to become a small island of bigots.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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If it is, there will be a number of people holding out not to celebrate it.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
To just ignore the day would simply be to pretend nothing happened. Something did happen - the start of an invasion and genocide.
As Alan said, no-one is requiring ignoring. It's just maybe that fireworks and a party aren't the thing?
quote:
If you want to have a discussion about whether or not "celebrating" is the right thing to do, then that is probably worthwhile (keeping in mind that we have "celebrants" at funerals, I suppose). A lot more worthwhile than anything you've said on this thread so far.
That's exactly the discussion we HAVE been having. You just haven't worked it out. You've been talking about "moving the celebrations" from your very first post and you haven't until now shown a flicker of recognition that my entire reaction has been about the fact that YOU ARE STILL CELEBRATING.
quote:
This is about remembering what happened, acknowledging it is a painful day, and including Indigenous people by not celebrating that day.
And the penny that was dropping has disappeared again. Then stop celebrating it! Stop thinking that having a party 2 days after is not having an Invasion Day Party! How the hell does that "acknowledge it is a painful day"?
[ 24. January 2017, 19:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
This map suggests that Denmark also manages without a national day.
But, perhaps the UK will select 23rd June ... commemoration of the day we decided to become a small island of bigots.
Thanks. To suggest, as the map does, that Australia Day is "unification/revolution-related" seems wrong to me. It is the founding of the colony, and at the same time a day of invasion - neither being unification or a revolution.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Denmark: Constitution Day, 5 June.
"It recognises the signing of the first Danish Constitution on 5 June 1849 and celebrates the most recent, on 5 June 1953."
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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ADDENDUM: Given that Norway's Constitution Day (May 17) appears to be the basis for colouring in Norway on that map, Denmark missing out is just dumb.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If it is, there will be a number of people holding out not to celebrate it.
Or, "celebrate" in the same manner that indigenous Australians remember invasion day.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Denmark: Constitution Day, 5 June.
"It recognises the signing of the first Danish Constitution on 5 June 1849 and celebrates the most recent, on 5 June 1953."
Wikipedia ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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No, that isn't where I went.
[ 24. January 2017, 21:53: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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Sorry, I meant it's where the map that's clearly incorrect came from.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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Going back to the intent of my question, and ignoring various oddities in the map Alan Cresswell found. Every country except the UK seems to consider that there is need for a national day of some sort. Most are independence related. The Portuguese selection of the death-day of an eminent poet is interesting but is Henry Lawson an appropriate person?
Orfeo has said why 1 January would not be popular. The Australia Acts of 1886 (which ended the last vestiges of British control of Aust constitutional and other legal matters) both came into force at 1600 on 3 March 1986, but the basis of that legislation is so arcane that virtually no-one in the general population would understand it. That's an unsuitable date.
Is there any other? I think not and we're left with what Orfeo's been trying to explain - that we observe 26 January noting the very different meanings that day has for various groups in today's society.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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The UK doesn't have a national day. But the constituent parts of the UK do - and the two communities in Northern Island celebrate twice! So we have two national days, one principality day, a province day for the Unionists, and a close-but-no-cigar day for the Republicans. And that's without St Patrick, either.
It's one year long party for us Brits.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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What would you say that the day was for England? St George?
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
To just ignore the day would simply be to pretend nothing happened. Something did happen - the start of an invasion and genocide.
If you want to have a discussion about whether or not "celebrating" is the right thing to do, then that is probably worthwhile
I'm not reading any suggestion that the day be ignored. The issue ISTM from across the other side of the world is that 26th January is a day chosen to celebrate the founding of Australia, but it is also a day to commemorate the fact that with that came an invasion of British people and the genocide of the indigenous people. Keeping Australia Day associated with the 26th January (which includes any change to the nearest Monday for convenience) will mean that the holiday will need to combine both aspects. Which is always going to be a tension - but perhaps it is good to have them in tension to make sure people don't forget that the establishment of Australia as a nation came at great cost to the indigenous people.
The suggestion is that people like myself and the Fremantle council who are participating in the One day in Freo event on 28 Jan are ignoring the fact that moving the day to a location two days later does not actually sever the link to the day itself, and what it represents.
And, as I have stated at length now, that is not the intention of any of this. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:
An alternative is to divide the events, keeping the 26th January as a commemoration of the invasion and genocide of the indigenous people and selecting another appropriate date in Australian history for the celebration of Australia. Or, another alternative is to ditch the idea of a national day altogether.
I suppose - but given how much angst has been poured out over the decision to move the celebration of the date itself, I can only imagine how the suggestion to ditch the celebration entirely would go.
To give you an idea of how some people in Fremantle think - the explorers' monument stands in Esplanade park. On one side it has a plaque commemorating the death of some explorers killed by "treacherous natives." As this was offensive to Indigenous people, the plaque was not removed. Rather, they put another plaque on the other side of the monument with the other side of the story.
This is exactly the point. I am not for severing the link with 26 January. We need to remember what was done here. We need to acknowledge what we have done, not pretend it didn't happen. We need, I suppose, to have a national day (Federation would be a better, if equally problematic, day to celebrate in my view). But, given the day is one of profound pain for many, we are choosing simply not to celebrate on that day. A symbol, perhaps lacking in much efficacy? Perhaps that will be the view of many. As I said earlier, if we ditch symbols because they are symbols, we will have to get rid of quite a lot of them.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorers'_Monument] Explorers' monument[/url]
[No idea why it won't let me insert the URL as normal. Sorry.]
[ 25. January 2017, 01:38: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Most likely the apostrophe in the URL is causing a ruckus.
Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you want to have a discussion about whether or not "celebrating" is the right thing to do, then that is probably worthwhile (keeping in mind that we have "celebrants" at funerals, I suppose). A lot more worthwhile than anything you've said on this thread so far.
That's exactly the discussion we HAVE been having. You just haven't worked it out. You've been talking about "moving the celebrations" from your very first post and you haven't until now shown a flicker of recognition that my entire reaction has been about the fact that YOU ARE STILL CELEBRATING.
No, you troglodyte. This is the discussion YOU STARTED:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If the day is going to shift, it's going to have to shift to a day that means something. Not to a day that has no significance in the nation's history. Can you imagine? We have fireworks on this day to commemorate nothing happening. Or just because it's time for a booze up.
Don't try and wriggle out of this, as if you were talking about something else the whole time. The shifting of the day is what YOU have been banging on about this whole time.
quote:
quote:
This is about remembering what happened, acknowledging it is a painful day, and including Indigenous people by not celebrating that day.
And the penny that was dropping has disappeared again. Then stop celebrating it! Stop thinking that having a party 2 days after is not having an Invasion Day Party! How the hell does that "acknowledge it is a painful day"?
I'm going to do this one word at a time. Maybe that will help.
By. Not. Celebrating. On. That. Day.
Hey, you want to advocate not celebrating at all, be my guest. Like I need to see people wandering around draped in flags because they anticipate getting so stoned or smashed they actually forget what country they are in. But, given the firestorm that has descended on the Fremantle council for making the actually quite mild suggestion that we don't celebrate the actual day, but have some stuff going on another day just over here (which won't just be mindless hedonism like fireworks, but will involve culture, music etc. in true Freo style), good luck convincing people not to have a celebration at all. This is a cautious first step away from simple mindless celebration. Is it enough? Hell no!
If I am not back here to participate further in this mind-numbingly stupid conversation, happy birthday for tomorrow, dickhead. I may disagree with everything you are saying here, and think you are a tool, but I am still not disappointed you were born. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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My birthday is not tomorrow.
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
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It must be soon, so Happy Birthday in advance.
Ian Macfarlane says March 1:
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Mr Macfarlane ... said Australia Day could be moved to March 1, as it was the day the Commonwealth started functioning as one nation under one Government.
And Barnaby tells critics of Jan 26 to "go to work" and says, "They don't like Christmas, they don't like Australia Day, they're just miserable, gutted people and I wish they would crawl under a rock and hide for a little bit."
[ 26. January 2017, 00:06: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posted by Kittyville (# 16106) on
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quote:
"I wish they would crawl under a rock and hide for a little bit."
And also with you, Barnaby.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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I did always rather like Ian Macfarlane. Fairly conservative politically but regularly showed signs of having a brain and being willing to listen to arguments.
Posted by goat (# 18740) on
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If 26 January was invasion day so was Anzac. The Turks won there 1-0 in injury time and are Muslim.
Anzac becomes Victory Day if Muslims lead the parade with B-Grade ISIS bringing up the loser's tail-end.
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