Ship of Fools: Whoever is responsible for the inability of the NHS to keep old ladies safe

Thread: Whoever is responsible for the inability of the NHS to keep old ladies safe Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Second time sent home before being ready to be sent home, when they know that there are problems with provision of a proper environment for care there.
Followed by not being able to re-admit when a problem re-appears.
And it isn't just one person. It's happening all over.
The people who lived through the war and kept the country going, and helped to set up the NHS are being dumped.
If I a) believed in curses, and b) believed it was right to invoke them, I would be scrawling names on lead and slinging them into the Thames by Parliament.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Fundamentally, this is NHS underfunding. So it is the politicians. The workers in the service are still wonderful, trying their hardest to do what they can.

Maggie is rapidly becoming the third worst PM in my lifetime. In the future, if we have one, we will look back at this point in time and ask what the fuck we were doing.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Fundamentally, this is NHS underfunding. So it is the politicians. The workers in the service are still wonderful, trying their hardest to do what they can.

Not just NHS underfunding. It's also underfunding of care services in general - ideally there would be adequate care in place that it is possible to free up hospital beds by allowing elderly patients home knowing that there is a decent care plan, with associated resources, in place.

Which is also down to politicians.

And, again the professionals in the care services are also wonderful, doing all they can with the little that is given them.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Absolutely the politicians. Who know they don't need to bother about the votes of the end of life patients...

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

As a former ambulanceperson, I have had the unenviable task of taking home from hospital people who really have not been ready for it. My crewmate and I were once assaulted and abused - only verbally, fortunately - by a man who had been called out to let his mother into her house (at 3am). He apologised, and we (of course) were quite understanding - the poor man was clearly distressed and distraught on Mum's behalf.

On another occasion, we took home a lady with a full leg plaster, only to find that her 'care package' was not due to start until the following day (we had been told that the carers would meet her at home - in fact, we were let in by a kindly neighbour). Given that the patient lived in a town house, consisting mostly of stairs, we took the decision (with her consent) to return her directly to the ward from whence she came. By God's grace, her former bed was still unfilled (we didn't hang about on this job...)!

As others have said, it's the result of underfunding across the board. If only politicians could suffer the same worry, indignity, and general bloody-awfulness some of these poor people have to put up with.

(BTW, by 'Maggie', I assume Our Darling Mrs. May is meant, no? If so, agreed 100%. An asylum is where she belongs, hopefully with no staff available to wipe her bum, or bring her a cuppa tea)

IJ

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Yes it is underfunding of the whole care system. That was me being lazy.

And no, Maggie is Mrs Thatcher. I think Cameron and May are even worse in order. They both deserve to end up dying in agony, slowly, covered in their own excrement.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Shivering from unidentifiable causes though wrapped in umpteen layers of warm clothes.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

None of which are theirs (or fit properly).

IJ

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I realise, and apologise for, that I over emphasised the gender of the victims of the failings in NHS care. This was because a) an elderly lady is in my mind most at the moment, b) when in the hospital I only saw elderly ladies because the ward (thank goodness) was not mixed, c) Old ladies tend to outlive old men, and d) artistic effect.
But it was wrong. I am sure that old men are made victims as much.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I just think Penny has a mighty big heart to be getting outraged on behalf of a woman who has caused her all sorts of bother. Shows how nice she is.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I used to get outraged, too, but (alas, perhaps) those of us in The Front Line have to cultivate a certain amount of detachment...whilst trying to retain a degree of compassion and charity.

Men are indeed victims, too, but statistically (AFAIK) elderly women are in the majority in these awful situations.

[Frown]

Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :

Is there a reason why aged women suffer more than aged men?

Might it be because women are normally younger than their male partners, but live longer, and thus (on average) can act as carers, while when it is their turn they are truly on their own?
Or is there intrinsic gender-based discrimination?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

It seems quite often the case with older couples that the wife outlives her husband, rather than that there is any gender-based discrimination.

That's anecdotal, BTW, from my own work experience - dunno whether it's borne out by stats.

IJ

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I think one factor might be that older women were raised not to raise their voices, and make a fuss. Nurses and doctors know this, so, even if subconsciously, they probably aren't quite as "careful" as they are with the men.

When my father was in his final six months of mini strokes and dementia, we had to move him to three different nursing homes because the powers that be just wouldn't put up with his cranky, demanding behavior. One supervisor told me straight up that she didn't like to take old men because so many of them were like that.

Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :

Unfortunately underfunding of such services will continue to increase as the population ages. This is a reality of current population demographics, and I'm not sure anyone has wrapped their heads around the solution - and this is only the start of the increasing problem. Tax/levies will increase beyond politically acceptable limits very quickly in the coming 15-20 years, and politicians see the problem, but not the solution.

Tragically it is individuals who will miss out and put at risk.

For the last 2 years I've managed a resthome/hospital/dementia unit and I can tell you there isn't a huge margin: approximately 95% occupancy is break even in NZ, and most staff are getting much more than the minimum wage. Nursing ratios are incredibly low. And providers are continually squeezed by the funder - annual increases in funding have been pegged at less than the inflation rate for several years. The private providers are running care facilities in order to give them leverage to own retirement villages where there is money to be made (effectively the money comes from real estate, and healthcare is a side interest to give legitimacy to the real estate business.)

I don't know the answers here either ("throw more money at it" is also short sighted). But our respective populations need to have an adult conversation about the expectations, requirements and constraints before too many more people fall into the cracks. A conversation that is probably political suicide and so avoided...

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Penny S:

quote:
Absolutely the politicians. Who know they don't need to bother about the votes of the end of life patients...

...and foolishly forget that most end of life patients have family and friends who will outlive them long enough to cast a vote at the next election.

Time to write to our MPs. Not that writing to mine will do much good, as he's one of these hard Brexiteer/let the NHS burn types, but it will make me feel like I'm doing something.

[ 23. January 2017, 08:14: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I just think Penny has a mighty big heart to be getting outraged on behalf of a woman who has caused her all sorts of bother. Shows how nice she is.

Well, thank you. Not sure about the conclusion, though. I seem to have developed an alt personality who is capable of behaving like a carer very nicely, but I'm not sure I am wholly responsible for her (the alt personality, that is.)

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

And for the correction of the original bias, a horror story from east Kent. A man who had been in hospital for several weeks with a lung complaint, discharged, able according to the physio to walk 8 metres, but who could not stand. Also able to breathe properly, but unable to eat or drink when he got home. The family called an ambulance, and he was re-admitted. His wife could only kiss his forehead, as he was filthy, not having been washed. He died the following morning, without seeing his family again.
There is legal action being taken.
His daughter says that if they had been told that he was being sent home to die, that would have been different, but they were told he was well enough to go home.
This is extreme, but so, so wrong.

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

Our city last year had a lovely gent who was discharged from hospital to a previous address ( if remember serves). The poor discharged patient tried to find his very confused way home, only to end up in a canal. An early morning passerby found him......mercifully alive....

As far back as twelve years ago, we would have bed managers prowling the wards at night looking for patients to discharge. But frosty (and older) charge nurses or ward sisters sent them packing.

I know.

We all understand.

It's beds that are needed.
But being discharged in the middle of the night is no joke.

Not for the patient... the poor nurses who have to carry out the wishes from on high....other patients in the wards who are inevitable woken up as well....the family or friends who are inevitably summoned from their sleep to pick up a patient and still go into work the next day....neighbours who are woken up by vehicles coming and going at ridiculous hours....ambulance personel who are asked to take obviously ill people home.....GPs who are left to pick up the pieces afterwards....

Would that all MPs were banned from using private medical care. That might see the start of a bit of a shift in thinking.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Given that by the frequency of thses events, every MP must have at least one constituent who suffers like this, if not more, it should be possible to make every single one of them aware of what is going on. Over, and over again. In detail. From every member of the patient's family.

[ 24. January 2017, 19:30: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

Sadly.....and perfectly understandably, maybe the family's are caught up in the actual life of their relative?

Maybe the family find it hard to go over and over the story?

With the hospital should one complain to PALS, (Patient Advice and Liaison Service) or should complaints go to the ward or higher up, the chief executive?

Does the family go straight to the press?

The MP?

This all takes time.

Having been on the end of a discharge at 4.45am myself...i quite understand why some people have had enough and just want a bit of peace and quiet.

That's not to say that waking people up during the night to be discharged is acceptable.
It's not.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I suspect there is some reliance by those responsible on that sort of feeling in those affected.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

There's another issue lurking under the surface here: how do you deal with the lies?

He's much better and able to go home: no he isn't (he shouldn't have gone home - guess what - back in 6 hours). Family told off for bringing him in

Come and pick him up now, he has everything he needs: a 4 hour wait at the hospital for his pills.

He's comfortable (said on phone to relative): son at bedside removing bottle of wee from table where it sits next to the uneaten food. Man sitting in a pool of wee where he 's been for over an hour - as per other patient observation. Staff standing at the nurse station talking about their night out.

We've checked her out she's ok and we'll find respite for her: dead 12 hrs later from the erupting cancers they had omitted to mention as seen on the xrays.

I can't speak to you now, I'm in the operating theatre. No Mr Consultant you can't speak to me because you're in the corridor of the shop area buying your lunch.

All of these happened.

I can understand the sympathy for those who carry out all sorts of jobs in the hospital - my wife and all 3 daughters work/have worked in the NHS - but injustice won't be stopped unless and until people on the ground say "no more." Mrs M finally left when she realised that to remain honest she's be raising incident report forms as soon as she walked in the ward door. She simply couldn't take the attitude of senior staff including the Chief Exec who said that answering bells was more important than people who had fallen down.

[ 29. January 2017, 06:31: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

By the way be very careful how you complain: always have a witness to any conversation, preferably record it on your mobile.

I'm aware of people who have been removed from the hospital under the "we don't tolerate aggression etc towards staff" for simply voicing valid concerns about treatment.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

The charities which can help can only help when they get referrals from hospitals. So we've been failed by the Red Cross and the Sally Army, despite the house not being livable at the moment. D's state not being medical - in some indefinable sense that I can't see, we can't take her to A&E again.
I haven't slept as I'm looking forward (in the sense that it is ahead of me) to a day enforced in with D.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

She was given an appointment at the Older Persons Assessment Unit for next week, at 9.30 in the morning, which would be too early for her at the best of times, but when she is 22 miles away, and the driving would be in the rush hour, is impossible. so it has been changed to a date in March - if this is the assessment to find her a placement somewhere, I am stuck for weeks.

Still, today's meal went down well. Cheesy bread-and-butter pudding using leftover French bread and cheese from KCL chaplaincy, chocolate custard with mini meringue sprinkles, and raspberry and rose profiteroles Waitrose had ordered too many of for Tuesday. Enough of the main for tomorrow as well - I rather over did it. There was a lot of loaf. And cheese.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

We continue unsupported. I am reluctant to engage on the "I am 71, and may be considered in some ways vulnerable as well. Please can I have support to not have to keep on doing caring work?" road. Superstitiously, I feel that using that tactic may rebound. I have been fit so far. I don't want to self fulfil something like that. But I am not feeling well. Nor is D's son.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

A dreadful situation. I know this is Hell, but [Votive]

I sympathise with your thoughts about being superstitious, and perhaps not wanting some sort of rebound, or Deus ex Machina to occur, but the Gordian Knot does sometimes, for everyone's sake, need cutting.

Not sure where I'm going with this thought, but I hope YSWIM.

IJ

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

The surgery has found an electrician.

We are not sure that even if we get the house working again, D will be able to live there independently. Her change has been so sudden, mobility, engagement with things and life in general, are not what they were at Christmas.

YSWIM?

[ 22. February 2017, 16:03: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Sorry - internet shorthand for 'You See What I Mean'...

IJ

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I did run a search on it - but it kept telling me about swimming lessons!

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

The social workers are apparently having difficulty finding a placement for D while her house becomes habitable, and have started to make noises about my place again. She says that I am to say no because it is a cheek!
Well done D. My county social workers say I have every right to say no, as well.
I am, too, an old lady - or I would have been thought to be one back when I was a girl.
Can social workers be guilty of elder abuse?

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

Definitely!

I think that sometimes social workers and others in the care industry consider the needs of the person whom they are tasked to help, without reference to the needs and vulnerabilities of the family or other carers.

We had a nurse at the home where my brother with Parkinson's lives, suggest a family member might take him when he was acting out. Before he had reached that stage he came to stay with me for a week and that convinced me that neither of us would benefit from us living together.

Huia

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

So, D is fit enough for discharge, which is essential for her safety because of the possibility of infection in the hospital.
Today! I rush round to make the final arrangements reducing my bedroom to a storage area with a gap to get to the bed and my clothes.
Then a call. She must be registered with my doctors' before they can prepare the discharge notes. So not today. Rush round to surgery to fill in form. They have had a call from the hospital, but need her details. Fill in form. Not sure that it is the right form for me to sign. Form is put into tray to be dealt with.
Stop rushing round. Hang out bedlinen in sun, have afternoon snooze.
Phone call from hospital from D's son, who was supposed to take the surgery details in. They had had been able to phone the surgery before I went in with D's details. Got details off internet, as they could have done.
Fun continues.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Today's allowance of fun. Dropped M off to go to the hospital, then over to my niece to deliver eggs for her and her daughter. Rush back through the rush hour to get back before the discharging transport, which is aiming for between 5 and 6. At 5.59, I get a call from M, they missed the transport as they weren't directed to the right place to meet it. There was a wait of anything up to 90 minutes, but it could be almost any minute. They didn't dare to start eating a sandwich, just in case.
It gave me time for the final tittivation, and to go out to supply a face cloth. And then wait. And do the prepping for the meal. And wait. And start to worry if I should be listening to the news. (D saw what happened on Westminster Bridge.) I rang the mobile, but it was off.
Then I had a call, almost immediately. Leaving the hospital at about 8.30. checked on Google Maps and TomTom the ETA, about an hour later. Tried to ring back to tell the driver under no circumstances to follow the satnav when I saw the planned route. Mobile not on again.
Started the meal cooking. Watched a bit of TV. Started this message, and the doorbell rang. Arrived one hour and ten minutes after leaving, having followed another route, with another under no circumstances lane on it.
Fed everyone. D does not want to go to the bedroom I have prepared for her tonight, though she was a bit happier when I told her about the mattress protector. The hospital has discharged her without any pads or pants for incontinence. Fortunately I have some from her earlier stay.
We have no idea when the District Nurse will be coming, as discharge was very hasty.
But, D is so much better, so much in control of her thinking, so much more alert. It's brilliant what they have done.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

The community nurses have been and redressed her legs, and arranged a surgery appointment for next Wednesday. Nothing more frequent. It seems very haphazard - no advance warning. I was out making a private call on my mobile to get help with the cooker issue.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

Previously, on Harrowing Tales of PennyS:

Our centralized single-payer health care system has flaws! Important flaws that can be Harrowing!

...and now, a reaction from a sane person living in Trump's 'Merica:

Well, fuck?

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Wrong. It isn't the health system that has flaws. It is the social care system, which is not single payer, which is run locally by councils which have had their budgets cut by central government in such a way that authorities which are likely not to vote Conservative, ie have less well off residents, get less money, despite greater needs. Local care homes are partially funded by charging means tested patients more than the money paid by the authorities, and the means test kicks in at a low threshold, so it leeches off people who are not well off. In other words, it bears a lot of resemblance to the US "system".
The distinction between health and social needs is not drawn well, so that mental health issues, such as being completely doolally about the state of one's house is not seen as an illness.
This is not a fault of the NHS, not in any way. So bloody shut up.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Wrong. It isn't the health system that has flaws. It is the social care system

Oh my! You have a social care system! In the US, mental health is primarily handled by the penal fucking system. I'm not saying you are wrong to complain about the flaws in the system, because obviously it should be better. I'm saying that you're complaining to the wrong fucking people. Partially because there's nothing most of us can do about it, but mostly because you've hashed it to fucking death and I can't make myself even pretend to care any fucking more.

quote:
So bloody shut up.

You. Fucking. First.

Posted by Meerkat (# 16117) on :

RooK... you may be an Admin, but that does not justify foul language directed at a lady who is obviously distressed at the situation in which she finds herself.

Yes, she has taken up server-space, but I think she needs to sound off to release the pressure. Please cut her some slack!?

Be nice... please?

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Nice? RooK? In hell?

Posted by Meerkat (# 16117) on :

He doesn't need to splatter his post with 'F' words... sarcasm alone should suffice if he wants to be his RooKy self... most men have the decency to not swear at women, even in 'Hell'.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

ITTWACW [Roll Eyes]

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
... and I can't make myself even pretend to care any fucking more.

Dude, if I can keep myself from moving the cancer thread out of Hell and into All Saints, you can avail yourself of the scroll function on your device and just move the fuck on.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Meerkat:
He doesn't need to splatter his post with 'F' words... sarcasm alone should suffice if he wants to be his RooKy self... most men have the decency to not swear at women, even in 'Hell'.

Aren't you adorable. Fall down a well and die, you sexist piece of shit.

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Dude, if I can keep myself from moving the cancer thread out of Hell and into All Saints, you can avail yourself of the scroll function on your device and just move the fuck on.

Let's just settle this by acknowledging that you are clearly a better person than I am. I've been scrolling past the PennySification of the Difficult Relatives thread, and added further spins to most of this PennySpecific thread. But seeing the thread devolve into just PennyStatic blogging posts to nobody seemed ripe for some snark.

But you're right, I should just let poor, feeble PennyS blather on without resorting to my own honest expressions when told that I should not speak. My challenges to becoming a better person are many. We should meet up for some constructive spankings.

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

It should be painfully obvious, even to the meanest intelligence, that it is possible to find oneself in hell by dint of a situation and to need to speak from that situation in an unedited fashion. Hence the presence of the cancer and difficult relatives threads, and indeed this one. It is not, to all except the most dickish mentality, necessary to be flaming anything constantly, or even to be ranting in a notably coherent fashion, in order for hell to be the right place to do it.

Hell for venting; All Saints for advice.

Simple enough, surely?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Fair enough Thunderbunk, but Meercat was asking folks not to swear in hell [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Thanks RooK for your frank assessment of my personality. Perhaps you would like to visit sometime and assess my guest as well.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:

Hell for venting; All Saints for advice.

Simple enough, surely?

Erm, no. Read the board description as that explains the purpose of Hell very clearly. Simple enough, surely?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Trying to wrest this thread back to the topic, we find it extraordinary that the social workers could just foist this very elderly woman upon Penny S - who tells us that she herself is getting on. What is the power that permits that?

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

It's hell, so we can use bad language right?

Roughly put:

In the UK, our National Health Service (NHS) deals with matters relating to health concerns. And at the moment it remains free at the point of use for UK residents.

Whilst our Social Services covers Social Care, with is all about retaining independence and Social Workers get involved at the Deciding Stage is someone is vulnerable or that person needs additional help. This provision comes through the local authority councils and is also free.

( as i type this i just KNOW that someone is going to jump in and disagree. Go ahead,....this is just starting the debate!)

The overlap between these two provisions has always been blurred, but of late each side is attempting to get the other to take the lead.

Add to that, the NHS is currently collapsing under diktats concerning waiting times + maximum bed occupancy.

Whilst the Social Workers (unless they are in private hospitals )are funded through local councils, who are under operating under serious cut backs.

In short?
It's back to Rook's language, it's all fairly fucked.
Unless there is a serious crisis.

And for serious read
" Left outside A/E"
...or...
" Next of Kin
informed Social Worker that they refuse to have Mr K ...aka Grandad.....living back with them"

It is all a very serious mess and Social Workers deserve far better. They are caught between a rock and a hard place.

The UK is going through massive change and no one really knows what is going on right now.

If someone....anyone...puts their heads above the parapet and says that they will step in and help, most social workers would seriously consider accepting that help.

Then again. most people would not do what Penny has done.
No judgement....just facts....
.
.
.
.

[ 14. April 2017, 23:15: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Most people have common sense.

Today, she wants to go home.

I am considering dobbing her in to the Environmental Health Officer.

We are considering leaving her at A&E, or refusing to take her back when she has been to Guys for physio.

Her son is considering suicide.

At the beginning of the year we thought she was going to die before April.

I think St Thomas' has done such a good job she has several more years. The hellish bit of me is feeling this is grossly unfair.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

And I feel for the social workers - not only between a rock and a hard place in this case, but with a scorpion in the gap striking at them with complaints.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

If her son is considering suicide please take him to a doctor/A&E.

If you don't want her back in your house, ring social services and tell them, give them a deadline 24 48 hours - whatever - if the worst comes to the worst they can put her in a hotel, but they need a few hours notice to organise that.

Posted by AndyHB (# 18580) on :

The problem, to my eyes, is that our Health and Social Welfare provisions are still based on a mid-20th century model, even if a few tweaks have been made to them over the years.

The NHS was designed to ensure that everyone's basic health needs was catered for and treated. It wasn't designed to cater for some of the highly complex and expensive procedures that are now available. That isn't to say that those procedures oughtn't to be being carried out, but - like so many other social provisions - realistic funding must be put into place before they become standard provision. As someone who, in the last 6 or 7 years has been put onto a number of medications for life, such as statins and blood thinning tablets, I find the Welsh Government's (health is a devolved issue here in the UK) approach to prescriptions (free at point of delivery) rather questionable, especially for those who are quite capable of (and in many cases willing to) paying.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Trying to wrest this thread back to the topic, we find it extraordinary that the social workers could just foist this very elderly woman upon Penny S - who tells us that she herself is getting on. What is the power that permits that?

Pretty much. If you tell Social Services that you can cope without support as you have so and so to look after you or refuse it, then then you're left to it. It's not like they don't have lots of other work to do.

It might be useful for PennyS to ring Age UK or look on the CarerUK forum as they will help PennyS and The Son navigate the labyrinth that is the UK Social System. Unfortunately they don't do assertiveness training.

Tubbs

[ 18. April 2017, 09:56: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Thanks. Son is in an up mood at the moment having got the house into bags suitable for allowing access to tradespeople and CloudsEnd who specialise in hoarders.
Mother is refusing to access the bedroom I have prepared for her by moving all my sewing stuff and clothes horses into my room, even to look through all the clean and cleaned clothes in there.
She is going to the surgery for her legs to be dressed tomorrow, and I am hoping the nurse will pick up that she has been unable to, as the hospital said she could, manage her toilet requirements. My providing personal care was what I stated clearly wasn't going to happen. I have provided pads, incontinence pants with pads, disposal bags and a bin to put them in, and explained them to her twice. firstly when she arrived, and secondly yesterday, when she asked, already obviously in need of changing. Its a delicate matter, and I don't know how to address it, but I also do not want to be accused of negligence by the surgery.
Her son says the hospital lied to us.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Thanks. Son is in an up mood at the moment having got the house into bags suitable for allowing access to tradespeople and CloudsEnd who specialise in hoarders.
Mother is refusing to access the bedroom I have prepared for her by moving all my sewing stuff and clothes horses into my room, even to look through all the clean and cleaned clothes in there.
She is going to the surgery for her legs to be dressed tomorrow, and I am hoping the nurse will pick up that she has been unable to, as the hospital said she could, manage her toilet requirements. My providing personal care was what I stated clearly wasn't going to happen. I have provided pads, incontinence pants with pads, disposal bags and a bin to put them in, and explained them to her twice. firstly when she arrived, and secondly yesterday, when she asked, already obviously in need of changing. Its a delicate matter, and I don't know how to address it, but I also do not want to be accused of negligence by the surgery.
Her son says the hospital lied to us.

She might well have been able to do it hospital but isn't able - or won't - do it now. Call Social Services and tell them that you're not able to cope as mummy needs more personal care than you can provide, get her son to back you up, then ask them to come up with something suitable for mummy.

Whilst moaning at us may be helpful in the short term, it isn't going to serve you in the long term. We can't. as the lovely RooK pointed out, do anything.

Tubbs

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Trying to wrest this thread back to the topic, we find it extraordinary that the social workers could just foist this very elderly woman upon Penny S - who tells us that she herself is getting on. What is the power that permits that?
Pretty much. If you tell Social Services that you can cope without support as you have so and so to look after you or refuse it, then then you're left to it. It's not like they don't have lots of other work to do.

It might be useful for PennyS to ring Age UK or look on the CarerUK forum as they will help PennyS and The Son navigate the labyrinth that is the UK Social System. Unfortunately they don't do assertiveness training.

Tubbs

But to send her off to Penny S, no relation and obviously finding it extremely difficult to care for an elderly person? Surely all that Penny needs do is to ring the hospital, say that she can't manage and that the taxi, with friend's mother will be at the hospital any minute now?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Hospitals here have had their funding cut to the bone. Little old ladies with no care options are bed blockers and prevent others from having urgent operations and stop admission from trolleys in Accident and Emergency / Casualty. Hospitals tour every day, several times a day, to find someone they can send home to create beds for others. If there is an option to move a bed-blocking old lady the hospital is going to be relieved that either the surgical team is not standing around because there is no bed for their patient's post-operative recovery or the fines are not coming their way for breach of waiting times in A&E.

Basically you don't say you can take a bed-blocking old lady because everyone will bite your hand off with relief and not look too closely at the option beyond the hospital gates.

Penny volunteered to do this - or her friend volunteered her to do this on her behalf -
against all the warnings given on the Difficult Relatives thread when several of us pointed out that anything Penny did was not going to solve the problems but that it was going to patch over the gaps in the care and health services and leave them stranded with not a lot of help

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Are there no intermediate stay places for recuperation and getting skills to cope at home? These days, you hear that X has just had a week in the San, and then off to rehab at Lady Davidson or Mt Wilga for a fortnight's rehab. The treatment you describe seems inhumane.

Next question - what's to stop Penny taking the course I suggested?

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

I'm with Tubbs on this one, we cam listen but can't do anything practical. I think your friend need to get some backbone rather than taking advantage of your good nature and start sorting things out for himself.
I do have sympathy, I think my mother is heading into difficult realtion territory , but I think that is to do with her failing mental powers exposing the less nice sides of her character rather than anything deliberate.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Update. She wasn't bed blocking as far as we could see, there were whole groups of empty beds in the elder ward.
She tells us that she has changed her pads today, but I can find no trace of this. She has assured me she knows not to flush things as she had to teach mothers not to do it at the pre-school club she used to work at. She has also owned to finding adapting to using these aids difficult.
The surgery yesterday wasn't very helpful when I went across to prime them on the continence matter, but said I should contact social services. Who will want her to pay, which she will refuse. There are no intermediate care provisions without her paying for it. I thought there would be.
The house is getting better, but her son is not there today so he can go across to the surgery with her.
There is a mental health issue which has been ignored.
And I am an idiot.
Dropping her off at A&E remains an option.

[ 19. April 2017, 12:14: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

You are not an idiot, but you do need to make an important decision and stick to it.

This will take as much strength as caring for her did, but you will both benefit from it in the end.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Penny--

What Boogie said.

And I worry that your friend will either wind up in the hospital (for breakdown or suicide attempt) or simply leave. And you'll be stuck with his mom, alone, with no help, trying to figure out what to do.

Please take good care of yourself. [Votive]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Can we agree on this:

You made a decision that you were under no obligation to make.

Without casting any blame on anyone, that decision has not worked in the way you had hoped.

You remain under no obligation to continue with your original decision.

Having done what you did, out of your own goodwill, you may now without any feeling of guilt ring the hospital and say clearly that she cannot remain with you longer than today.

You are not required either legally or ethically to find her somewhere else to go.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Can we agree on this:

You made a decision that you were under no obligation to make.

Without casting any blame on anyone, that decision has not worked in the way you had hoped.

You remain under no obligation to continue with your original decision.

Having done what you did, out of your own goodwill, you may now without any feeling of guilt ring the hospital and say clearly that she cannot remain with you longer than today.

You are not required either legally or ethically to find her somewhere else to go.

Not really. When you're discharged from hospital, you're offered a free, six week care package. After that you pay. I'm assuming this was waved away. Like all the other advice given to Penny over the last few months. Including to not get so involved, ringing social services and doing what they say, grabbing any help offered and telling mummy where she gets off when she's being a terrible guest etc. Or simply telling the son that he needs to make other arrangements for mummy as the current one isn't working.

I'm failing to understand why these aren't options because mummy is too scary and won't have it... But dumping mummy at A&E and running away is. That seems more of a last resort rather than a first. Especially as it will make everything worse.

Tubbs

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

As I recall, a lot of the general problem -but not specifically Penny's involvement- started with the fact that Mom has not been declared non compos mentis (mentally incapable of making her own decisions) and so she waved the help offered and she has been able to impose her own terms on her son who has passed them on to kindly Penny. In England is a child legally obligated to care for a parent? Maybe the son should start the process of getting a power of attorney from the courts to properly meet such obligations.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Penny--

FWIW:

I'm a little troubled about the A&E idea, too. I don't know the NHS, nor the culture about doing that. Maybe it's acceptable.

Here, I think the only times I've heard of it being done is when someone has a family member who desperately needs help for psych or addiction problems, who've fought for years to get appropriate treatment and funding, and who've finally been told that the only way through is to leave the person at the door of the ER (A&E), and drive away. The hospital is obligated to try to help.

But leaving an elderly woman there, even if you go in and explain to staff what's going on, would likely be seen as cruel...and might actually be.

Plus: how would you manage it? If you tell her ahead of time, she'll object, and you probably won't even be able to get her in the car. If you manage to get her to the hospital door and *then* tell her, she'll freak out. The staff probably won't be happy with you.

And, however much better you'd feel after relieving yourself of her...later, you'd probably feel bad about doing it that way. IANAL, but there might also be legal consequences, even though you're not a relative.

I wish I had a magic-wand solution for you. The only possibility I can see is to tell the social workers that you honestly can't do it anymore, it's crushing your own health, she's not a relative, and there must be another place for her NOW.

I think you've done some of that, though.

[Votive]

[ 20. April 2017, 21:18: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Tubbs, a lot of what's behind your comments goes through my mind also, as does knowledge of some syndromes.

I was not aware of the 6 week package, and if it's been mentioned on this thread I've forgotten it. It goes beyond the practice I know of here where so many seem to have their hospital time, then off to a recuperation/rehabilitation home, even those with spouses and families around and willing to assist.

Not sure that I understand your last paragraph.

[ 20. April 2017, 22:08: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on :

IME, the six-week package often gets conveniently forgotten to be mentioned if there is even a hint that there might be family members who can help with care. And it can be phrased in such a way to make it sound a singularly unattractive option. Because they know that there is pressure on them to not refer too many people to it.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
IME, the six-week package often gets conveniently forgotten to be mentioned if there is even a hint that there might be family members who can help with care. And it can be phrased in such a way to make it sound a singularly unattractive option. Because they know that there is pressure on them to not refer too many people to it.

My experience is similar to yours. But I also know you've got to grab whatever help is available with both hands and push hard. Because if you don't, you get left to get on with it.

There are tons of issues with trying to take care of an elderly but uncooperative parent. One is that if they're competent, they can do whatever they like. However stupid and wrong headed. And you have to decide how you're going to handle it. Sometimes you may have to simply tell them what's what and insist that certain things happen. Other times you have to sit on your hands and let them get on with it. Whilst hoping they don't injure themselves in the process.

If someone asks for advice / help, ignores everything that everyone suggests, but continues talking about their problems even though some of the problems they're having now are a consquence of ignoring the advice they were offered, at what point do you decide enough is enough?

I'm beginning to wonder how much the lovely Ship community is actually helping here?! Or, as the Ship isn't a private space but a public one, the likelihood of someone who knows them spotting these posts and it all kicking off ...

Tubbs

[ 21. April 2017, 18:06: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Tubbs, a lot of what's behind your comments goes through my mind also, as does knowledge of some syndromes.

I was not aware of the 6 week package, and if it's been mentioned on this thread I've forgotten it. It goes beyond the practice I know of here where so many seem to have their hospital time, then off to a recuperation/rehabilitation home, even those with spouses and families around and willing to assist.

Not sure that I understand your last paragraph.

It sounds like things work differently here. NHS and social service provision is very localised. Some places will have rehabilitation centres and if you're suitable, you'll get a place. Other places won't have them at all.

Tubbs

[ 21. April 2017, 18:18: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Thanks Tubbs, the health system here is very different to that in the UK. And I've just realised that the rehabilitation hospitals I've been talking of are private institutions and that those going there would have private health insurance to pay for it (private health insurance here is vastly cheaper than the sorts of figures spoke of in the US). What I still don't understand is why Penny S can't go back and say that she made a mistake, she can't manage the care of this woman as she had hoped she could, and that the hospital must make other arrangements promptly.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

It is no longer the hospital's responsibility when a patient is discharged. It then becomes the responsibility of social care (social services). And if social care has been rejected it is a long process getting them back involved. It's damn difficult getting them involved in the first place as they are hugely overstretched too. (We have to work very hard to get children social care support when the situation is horrendous.)

This financial year, local authorities have just been allowed to surcharge all local inhabitants for elder care as part of the council tax because homes for the elderly are going out of business as their finances have been cut to the bone too and that is a local authority responsibility too along with social care.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

What id Penny just takes this woman to a local shopping center, leaves her in a coffee shop under some pretence, and just does not return? All the belongings moved back to the woman's home?

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Well, that would look very, very bad. Probable public scene, when the woman realizes what's going on. Concerned passers-by record videos and put them online. Viral. Imagine the comments. Imagine if social media tracks Penny down.

Maybe just take the woman to her *own* home, with calls afterward to her son and to Social services. (Write down all info about the calls, too.) Maybe make sure she has some basic food and incontinence supplies, a couple of days' worth, and let .the son and Social Services know that. (Keep receipts.) Let them know that someone needs to come and retrieve her things.

IANAL, but this is a really complicated situation.

[ 22. April 2017, 00:39: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I appreciate just how bad it would look, and was not being entirely serious in what I said. But it would be a good way of forcing those who are responsible for the provision of the relevant services to get busy and do what they should.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

The way to force the authorities to provide the support was, as Penny was advised repeatedly, not to get involved and leave the social workers to get on with their job when the woman was in hospital. Hospitals put pressure on social care to support patients into interim support or back into their homes with a support package.

There is a system in place at that point in the process. Creaking at the seams, overstretched and struggling to cope, but there are gears to grind into place. Trying to feed someone back into the system when the wheels have come off is much, much harder.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Thanks.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Guess what. She is allowed to discharge herself because she is mentally competent to do so and drag her son back with her, despite the place not being ready because she has withheld permission for paying tradespeople. No-one, apart from her son, me and the social workers who saw her house last week, thinks that there is a mental health issue. Because she knows the PM and can remember 42 West Street.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The way to force the authorities to provide the support was, as Penny was advised repeatedly, not to get involved and leave the social workers to get on with their job when the woman was in hospital. Hospitals put pressure on social care to support patients into interim support or back into their homes with a support package.

There is a system in place at that point in the process. Creaking at the seams, overstretched and struggling to cope, but there are gears to grind into place. Trying to feed someone back into the system when the wheels have come off is much, much harder.

That is the way it works here. It is possible the person may wait in Emerg for several days until they sort it. Then it is "first available" with the health district, which means somewhere between same town or 300 miles away. Very, very hard on next of kin.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The way to force the authorities to provide the support was, as Penny was advised repeatedly, not to get involved and leave the social workers to get on with their job when the woman was in hospital. Hospitals put pressure on social care to support patients into interim support or back into their homes with a support package.

And now Panny S really ought read what has been said to her, and - should she decide to force the hands of the authorities - follow the advice given so often.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Oh, she really isn't coming back here and they know it. I have pointed out that the two times she has had long admissions to hospital have been from here and I can't be expected to take responsibility for monitoring future events - the last one she claimed was just a blocked nose, and she nearly died. I didn't spot it, and she was lucky to get to a surgery for treatment for something else when the attack worsened.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Also, she has completely blown it as far as empathy, sympathy, compassion and the rest on my part are concerned.
After I told everyone that she wasn't coming back here, she excluded me from the meeting with social workers by pulling a face as if she were auditioning as a model for Disney's wicked queen in Snowwhite in witch mode, waving her stick at me and pointing a hooked finger, shrieking "No!"
After a brief period of allowing me to accompany her son when social workers were actually allowed in her house, she has now forbidden him to mention my name, as it makes her upset and cry. She has also accused me of giving her pneumonia from infected blankets. (The blanket she used for the first stay had only ever been used as a throw on a futon where no-one had slept. I have to admit to not sterilising it between stays, so she could have reinfected herself with her own bugs. I suppose. But if she had slept on the bed I had prepared with nice clean sheets and a blanket fresh from the airing cupboard, instead of insisting on the chair downstairs, that wouldn't have happened.)(I did steam clean the chair.)

I suppose I should do good to someone who hates me and despitefully uses me, but there are ways other than taking her back into my home. Sorting out her dreck and taking it to the dump, doing the laundry the hospital sends, seeing her son gets to visiting hours, but until I get something resembling an apology, personal contact is out.

Perhaps expecting her to replace the chocolates she gave me for my birthday, and which she opened and ate all of while I was upstairs would be too much. Even if there are two more boxes in a bag cluttering up my hall.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

You are unlikely to get an apology from her.
If you want chocolates, go buy them yourself and keep them where she can't grab them. It's not worth the cost of any gift she gives you.

If you want to do good for her, stay out of her life. She doesn't want you there except when she wants to exploit you. This won't resolve when she gets over a snit and decides she was wrong and thanks you for your help.

Why are you so determined to engage with this woman who clearly doesn't want you in her life? If you want to help her son, support him when he is away from her.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

This to me reads like a textbook case of the Karpman drama triangle.

Penny S moved from being Rescuer to Victim. The other party moved from being Victim to Persecutor.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This to me reads like a textbook case of the Karpman drama triangle.

Penny S moved from being Rescuer to Victim. The other party moved from being Victim to Persecutor.

Well, that's one interpretation. There are others.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Palimpsest, the chocolate remark was not serious. It was a joke.
As for me being determined to help her. I'm not. Not now. I'm determined to have as little to do with her as possible. She has Gone Too Far.
Her son points out that she is like she is because of mental health issues, but the hospital has determined that because she knows the PM and can recall 42 West Street from the dementia test, there aren't any. She is mentally competent to decide to go and live where there are no facilities, when normal people who consider that decision to be a sign that she isn't. They have to respect her liberty to make that choice - which of course removes any liberty from her son.
Bit like free will - allow it, and the strong steal it from everyone else.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This to me reads like a textbook case of the Karpman drama triangle.

Penny S moved from being Rescuer to Victim. The other party moved from being Victim to Persecutor.

Interesting to read up. Doesn't fit. D is both Victim and Persecutor simultaneously, using victimhood as a tool of persecution, but suppressing it at times to be really, really nasty. She is manipulative like that.
I don't think I was being Rescuer for the reasons given. I had no gains from it. Far from it.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
As for me being determined to help her. I'm not. Not now. I'm determined to have as little to do with her as possible. She has Gone Too Far.

So no more "Sorting out her dreck and taking it to the dump, doing the laundry the hospital sends, seeing her son gets to visiting hours.."?

I think you need to take an out-of-town holiday -- alone, with no mobile phone access. It's time to take care of Penny. When was the last time that you or anyone else did something for YOU?

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
If you want to do good for her, stay out of her life. She doesn't want you there except when she wants to exploit you. . . . Why are you so determined to engage with this woman who clearly doesn't want you in her life?

Penny, this is what many of us have been repeatedly advising you to do for months now. You are not related to this woman or to her son. You have no responsibility for either of them.

If you are doing it out of friendship for her son, then perhaps it's time to drop him as a friend and choose some who are less taxing. To do otherwise is a lose-lose situation for you.

And to be quite frank, I am sure there are those who are beginning to grow weary of hearing about it post after post.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

You must have a different idea about friendship than I do.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
There was only one set of footprints. I also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in my life This really bothered me, and I questioned the Lord about it. "Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you, You would walk with me all the way; But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, There is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why in times when I needed you the most, you should leave me."

And the Lord said "Oh, that. Well, we couldn't think of a solution to your problem, and, frankly, the whole business was getting to be a bit of a bore, and we were weary of all those prayers, again and again, so I left you to it."

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

No, no, no. The Lord said:

"Sand people always ride single file to hide their numbers".

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Have you really reflected on what it means to be a rescuer? It's interesting, having been there done that, got a drawerful of t-shirts.

All that self-worth from helping people in need, all that feeling necessary and needed from helping others. All that enabling those same people to continue the behaviours that got them into this situation in the first place.

Helping people is not enabling them stay in the same situation, it may be about helping them change the situation. Or forcing them to by withdrawing other options.

If your friend stopped helping his mother would she be able to return home waving care packages away? If caring for her is beyond him, maybe he needs to say so and walk away. Because feeling trapped and unhappy, depressed and overwhelmed, does not a good carer make.

Rescuing him to keep on doing this is helping no-one.

[ 24. May 2017, 06:53: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Besides, you are not The Lord. You have limits.

Failing to recognise one's limits is one reason people adopt the role of Rescuer in the Karpman triangle.

[x-post]

[ 24. May 2017, 06:53: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
You must have a different idea about friendship than I do.

By doing what you're doing, you're also trapping the son in the situation. And "oh he's afraid of what people will think of him, so he's not going to let her face the consequences of her decision" and I'm going to help him continue the current situation is definitely a different idea of friendship than I have.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

None of my business whatsoever. But if it was me, I'd take a day out, sit quietly somewhere or go for a walk on a mountain, read a book or go for a long drive - and pray that God might help you see the right course of action. If I did that and didn't feel some immense sense of calling to go far beyond the normal in this specific situation, I'd be looking for ways constructive ways to help that did not involve this level of upset.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

I know nothing about Karpman triangles etc, but it seems to me that you are helping D's son stay stuck with the same situation, and are in danger of (if it hasn't happened already) of making things worse than they were.
A few days away seems like a very good thing.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

It would be one thing to say to your friend, "I see that you cannot take care of your mother. Let me help you find resources that will enable you to do so, or resources that can provide the necessary care for your mother."

But what you seem to be saying is, "I see that you cannot take care of your mother. Let me take care of her for you, even though doing so will completely overwhelm me. All you have to do is sit back and watch."

Watch me suffer the effects of being overwhelmed, that is. The mother is not going to receive the care she needs, because not only can you not do it but she apparently doesn't want you doing it. Nor is the friend going to benefit from being relieved of his filial duty.

This is a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
You must have a different idea about friendship than I do.

I would suggest that in most cases not much is served by putting yourself/someone in a position where they can continue to sin/be sinned against.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

Checked where I am. And it’s not All Saints. It’s Hell. Which is better for my purposes.

You ask for advice. You didn’t like the advice you get so you ignore it. Then you moan about the situation you’ve got yourself in and ask for more advice about how to deal with it. And ignore that. Rinse and repeat. Miss Amanda is correct, this is wearying.

The advice you’ve had since this started is pretty consistent. Stop enabling Mummy’s dysfunction and stay out of it. Mummy has decided the house is fine and doesn’t want to pay for care. Leave Mummy too it and see how she gets on. Support her son in leaving mummy too it as well. This will be hard as it goes against both of your basic inclinations. But it may be the only way to make Mummy see sense. If anyone asks, tell them that you’ve both done all you can but she’s refused all advice and help. I doubt anyone will be particularly surprised.

The current situation is toxic and isn’t helpful to anyone. As CK rightly points out, true friendship isn’t just about helping people where they are. It can be about helping them change their current situation into a better one. And sometimes that involves telling them things they’d rather not hear and doing things that don’t seem very kind.

Tubbs

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Eh, Tubbs, take your own advice and step away, then. If you're weary of the situation quit reading about it.

Also, when someone asks for advice they are not promising that they will take the advice, just that they'll listen to it politely and think about it for a minute or two. What if someone suggests that Penny set the old biddy on fire?

Penny may find that just setting down the facts is relieving and knows quite well that there is no simple solution.

I find it all interesting.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Penny may find that just setting down the facts is relieving.

That's what diaries are for.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Penny may find that just setting down the facts is relieving.
That's what diaries are for.

Or blogs.

I know there's no guantee that people take advice when it's offered. But you've got to wonder why someone keeps asking for advice that they've no intention of taking. Particularly when the advice is pretty consistent. So is our job to tell Penny how wonderful she is for taking on such a horrible old bat or just to nod every so often?!

Neither strikes me as helpful or part of the Ship's remit. This is not a personal blog, a conselling service or a substitute for real life help. Maybe Penny could set up a blog for people like you that love this stuff and give everyone else a break

Tubbs

[ 31. May 2017, 19:32: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I might like to read some diaries.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Neither strikes me as helpful or part of the Ship's remit. This is not a personal blog, a conselling service or a substitute for real life help. Maybe Penny could set up a blog for people like you that love this stuff and give everyone else a break

Tubbs

What actually is the ship's remit? Is the ship short of bandwidth and other more scintillating threads are being thrown overboard to make room for this one?

Why not tell the gardeners or the recipe collectors or the people who hate certain songs to get a blog and give everyone else a break? None of those threads interest me so I just don't read them. I don't suggest, condescendingly, that "you people who love this stuff," should get a blog, so that I might be spared.

I guess twelve pages of Steve Langdon's faults is still giving you a thrill, though. No complaints there. Must be in the ship's remit.

Twilight
(In case the name by the avatar isn't enough.)

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Penny may find that just setting down the facts is relieving.
That's what diaries are for.

If these are facts. I have reached the stage with Penny S's accounts that I do not know if the friend exists, let alone the mother. None of us, save Penny S, does.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Gee D--

I've never had any indication nor feeling that Penny is lying or making things up--with this account or any of her regular posts.

FWIW.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
FWIW.

I hear your sentiment. But you have to know that science weeps at that standard of consideration.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Funny, doesn't look like we're in a lab. [Biased]

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Funny, doesn't look like we're in a lab.

Oh, sweetie, science doesn't happen in a lab. Science is the systematic improvement of knowledge; it happens in our brains.

Theoretically.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Yes, dear, and that's wonderful--but scientific methods have nothing to do with the conversation.

Now, why don't you go watch a video of "Bill Nye, the Science Guy" or "Mr. Wizard", and let the grownups talk.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gee D--

I've never had any indication nor feeling that Penny is lying or making things up--with this account or any of her regular posts.

FWIW.

I'm not saying that she's lying or making things up, just that I don't know what I accept. There has been the repetition to which Miss Amanda refers - the manner in which Penny S is not accepting advice and comes back in a few days with a repeat.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Gee D--

IME, that pattern is very common for people dealing with a difficult situation, especially if they're conflicted, and pulled in several directions.

IMHO, Penny has done as much as she can, and it's time to take care of herself and get some rest. AIUI, various professionals have finally taken notice of the situation. So let them take over. Helping someone can be for a while, and doesn't have to mean a massive, long-term commitment.

But I'm not in that situation, and I'm not Penny.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Penny S won't change her enabling behaviour until she sees it as such and has a compelling reason to change. We all have different thresholds and I'd have tipped over mine long before Penny looks likely to.

There are no 'right' answers but at the moment Penny is helping no-one, least of all herself.

[Frown]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gee D--

IME, that pattern is very common for people dealing with a difficult situation, especially if they're conflicted, and pulled in several directions.

IMHO, Penny has done as much as she can, and it's time to take care of herself and get some rest. AIUI, various professionals have finally taken notice of the situation. So let them take over. Helping someone can be for a while, and doesn't have to mean a massive, long-term commitment.

But I'm not in that situation, and I'm not Penny.

You may well be right. I'd certainly agree with the sentiments in the last sentence of Boogie's post.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Neither strikes me as helpful or part of the Ship's remit. This is not a personal blog, a conselling service or a substitute for real life help. Maybe Penny could set up a blog for people like you that love this stuff and give everyone else a break

Tubbs
What actually is the ship's remit? Is the ship short of bandwidth and other more scintillating threads are being thrown overboard to make room for this one?

Why not tell the gardeners or the recipe collectors or the people who hate certain songs to get a blog and give everyone else a break? None of those threads interest me so I just don't read them. I don't suggest, condescendingly, that "you people who love this stuff," should get a blog, so that I might be spared.

I guess twelve pages of Steve Langdon's faults is still giving you a thrill, though. No complaints there. Must be in the ship's remit.

Twilight
(In case the name by the avatar isn't enough.)

Discussion. With the best will in the world, Penny’s monologues don’t lend themselves to discussion, fascinating as they might be. But as blog posts they’d work brilliantly.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, dear, and that's wonderful--but scientific methods have nothing to do with the conversation.

You really are a delightful old moron, to so helpfully point out how readily stupid people like you fling yourselves on logical fallacy and cognitive bias instead of actual reason or facts.¹

Feelings about Penny's authenticity are perhaps interesting to note, but of very little actual value in this conversation. Not that I expect you to recognize what ideas are of actual value. Just trying to help you out.

¹ Note how easily this derails into a Trump/BREXIT thread.

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

Penny hasn't posted about caregiving in a week, so perhaps she is thinking about or figuring ways to enact the advice she's been given.

As someone who spent a decade caring for my parents, I know how hard it was to do the things that friends and strangers think I should have been doing when at the same time my parents were thwarting those very options at every turn. I could have chewed nails at times even though I had the advantage of being a social worker.

Blowing off steam actually made it easier to finally do what had to be done.

And I interpret Penny as blowing off steam. And now folks are blowing off steam about their frustration with Penny.

Since Penny hasn't updated us, I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt.

sabine

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Hear, hear.

IJ

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Penny hasn't posted about caregiving in a week, so perhaps she is thinking about or figuring ways to enact the advice she's been given.

She managed to slip it into the "Oops - your Trump presidency" thread a few days ago.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Update. To refer back to the generality referred to in the OP, here's a piece from yesterday's Guardian.

Doctor's Orders

Meanwhile, today there was a meeting with social workers from the two involved authorities, and they've come up with a sort of solution involving a care home for three weeks (self-funded, therefore subsidising those who cannot self fund) and an advocate to assist in a sort of Clerk of Works way. The option of my place was discounted - my foot was definitely down, unless conditions unable to be put in were observed - i.e., she was taken out to activities every day by somebody else.

She was very sharp and on the ball and sweet. No indication of the hate filled face and the shriek of 'No!', and denial of the accusations of my infecting her with foul blankets and a contaminated car which were her reasons for not wanting to come back (and which I counted on). Apparently she later accused me of looking at her with hate, not to staff, but I don't even have the muscles to do it. Possibly not smiling at her. She has also accused me of being controlling and attempting to dominate her. Possibly not knuckling under to be controlled by her.

Anyway, she's off from hospital, where she has been since being close to death the other week, to a care home somewhere in Sarf Lunnon while the house is got livable.

When she relapsed, on my watch, she just said she couldn't breathe as her nose was blocked. fortunately we were on the way to the surgery, where they spotted things I had missed, and whisked her in to oxygen and all sorts of treatment to drain her lungs. I had to pick up her son from the train and find a way to tell him what had happened without being a major blow, and we then had a call asking how quickly we could get there. He thought he was arriving at her death bed, and so did the hospital, who whisked him off to a room with tissues and details of the chaplain and what to do in the case of sudden death. But they've worked wonders.
Nobody would doubt her capacity from the way she presented today.
And the way she has described her place as the same as everyone else's and only needing a vacuuming seems to have been abandoned.
I would think the nurses should perhaps not talk to her as if she were an infant, though. "You'll have your little cheque book to pay with, won't you?" She would not have talked to the children in her play group like that. (It was the tone.) And they wouldn't accept explanations that after she has given consent for the plumber she has denied that she would pay the price suggested, shutting up references to her changing her mind and talking over them.

We shall see.

But not back here.

PS, the person with paranoid delusions referred to in the Ooops thread was not D, and unconnected with D. I have been observing silence on that subject. It just seemed relevant to the subject there. PS.

[ 01. June 2017, 18:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, I for one hope that the situation will now improve, especially for you.

Might the care home in Sarf Lunnon possibly be the permanent solution?

IJ

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

And appreciation to sabine, Golden Key and Bishop's Finger.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

Glad something is in place Penny S and even more glad that it doesn't involve your home.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

And appreciation to you, too, Sarasa, with all your concerns going on as well.

Still think that Something Needs to be Done with regards to social care and its links to the NHS, and it certainly isn't what May suggested.

First find out what is needed in terms of resources, then find out ways to fund it that are not ripping off random people with fuzzy brains.

Mental illnesses to be treated the same way as physical ones, not charged while the latter are free. A seamless transfer from hospital to convalescence, with that period used for whatever care plan needs to be enabled, such as stair lifts (with repayable grants where proper). Some of it's in place now, but it isn't known about properly.

I would be quite happy to keep paying NI, if it were to return to being hypothecated for health and welfare. (And my MP wouldn't jump to the conclusion that people who couldn't afford to self-fund had chosen to be on benefits as a lifestyle choice, which I seemed to pick up from his expression last night at a pre-election meeting. For a seriously Tory area he picked up a bit of flak about social care payments, despite insisting the election was about Brexit. I said nothing. There were enough people saying enough. But I did feed a bit in afterwards to a local councillor (Ex-pupil. Clearly failed somewhere there. I said I had tried to keep my politics under wraps. She said it's only later looking back that one realises. Hmm.)

And I don't really need the winter fuel payment, though this year it was useful, and I can set previous years' lots against this year's other expenditure.

If they are going to change the payment scheme, it needs a run-in period, like they didn't do with women's pensions, so people can make plans appropriately (and I don't mean giving the house to the offspring). But what's wrong with upping NI a bit, and sharing the risk, like insurance? And certainly not charging self-funders excess over the costs to cover those with not enough money. To dump it on people suddenly is not right.

Oh, and meetings to be held after documents are sent out in advance so people can think about what is being presented to them. Maybe some people might not be able to make sense of them, but it would help the majority.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Rook--

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, dear, and that's wonderful--but scientific methods have nothing to do with the conversation.
You really are a delightful old moron, to so helpfully point out how readily stupid people like you fling yourselves on logical fallacy and cognitive bias instead of actual reason or facts.¹

Hmmm...I think I paid for the Argument Room, not Verbal Abuse.

quote:

"Roger the Shrubber: Are you saying Ni to that old woman?
King Arthur: Um, yes.
Roger the Shrubber: Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred.

~~"Monty Python & The Holy Grail"

quote:
Feelings about Penny's authenticity are perhaps interesting to note, but of very little actual value in this conversation. Not that I expect you to recognize what ideas are of actual value. Just trying to help you out.

Very kind of you, I'm sure. However, I'm not sure how science would be applicable to a discussion of a Shipmate's personal life. Set up a real life experiment, wherein Penny's friend's mom is escorted to the ER/A&E morning, noon, and night for a year, with extensive measurement of affect, behavior, and temperature? Send Penny on an all-expenses-paid vacation for that entire year, so she doesn't contaminate the data? Make the mom watch the entire video canon of Monty Python, and see if it helps her in any way? Do the fish-slapping dance with her?[/qb][/quote]

quote:
¹ Note how easily this derails into a Trump/BREXIT thread.

¹ Note how easily this derails into a Monty Python celebration!

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