Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Pauline Latham MP
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
There are no words to express how despicable this woman is.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Pauline Latham MP
There are no words to express how despicable this woman is.
quote:Now, we're certainly needing a dedicated thread.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
we also have Philip Davies also in the running for the position of Bastard of the Year. Though it's a very large field with lots of Conservative MPs in the running.
quote:According to Wikipedia there are about 10,000 people directly employed by Sellafield Nuclear Plant, with a further 7,500 directly employed by BAE Systems building nuclear submarines for the Royal Navy. Figures for indirect employment are less easy to get hold of, but it's not a particularly massive leap to say that an awful lot of shops, restaurants, etc. in the area are reliant on those workers staying employed, not to mention the local businesses that must exist to supply the plant and dockyard.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It is said that the Nuclear Power workers in Copeland were decisive in the Tory win last week. It seems unlikely that this employer single-handedly has more workers than all the others.
quote:If I had to choose between the possibility of a slightly better NHS or the strong likelihood of losing my job, I'd choose to keep my job every single time. And so would you, I'd wager.
And it also seems highly unlikely that Tory promises on protecting nuclear power will save the workers and their families from other Tory policies.
quote:It is indeed difficult if you are not in the particular situation. Personally, I think it has to do with an implicit promise to kind of rewind to the past. I suppose that if you're in poor health and on the basis of rudimentary education have little future of escaping poverty (one reason why national lottos are popular too, as they enable people to buy the hope of possible change), then you might be happy to follow a promise, however dubious, of a supposed return to modest prosperity and dignity. Combine this with the fact that there are immigrants who are indeed getting ahead of native groups, then you also get to add a portion of envy to the mix. It is maybe not rational to vote for a right-wing charlatan, but it is nevertheless understandable, given the bleak outlook and loss of dignity in many peoples' lives.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm missing something truly massive. I just can't compute why anyone who is working on an average wage, (occasionally to regularly) sick, has a youngster under 18 or a close relative over about 70 would vote Tory. It makes absolutely no sense.
quote:Perhaps it is because everyone (except those on the Ship of course - it would be too painful for them to question their political stances) has seen that despite regular Labour administrations since the Second World War, they have not actually managed to make things better for that group of people. Or indeed many other groups of people.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm missing something truly massive. I just can't compute why anyone who is working on an average wage, (occasionally to regularly) sick, has a youngster under 18 or a close relative over about 70 would vote Tory. It makes absolutely no sense.
quote:You'd lose.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If I had to choose between the possibility of a slightly better NHS or the strong likelihood of losing my job, I'd choose to keep my job every single time. And so would you, I'd wager.
quote:You really are a total prick. That is all crap.
Originally posted by deano:
Perhaps it is because everyone (except those on the Ship of course - it would be too painful for them to question their political stances) has seen that despite regular Labour administrations since the Second World War, they have not actually managed to make things better for that group of people. Or indeed many other groups of people.
quote:Those two thoughts have absolutely nothing to do with each other. The Labour movement and party has made lives better since the war and have not elected women leaders. The Tories have made things worse and have had women leaders.
Even the Conservative Party has managed to elect two women leaders, both of whom became Prime Minister. How many from the left? The glass ceiling remains unbroken on the mysogynistic left.
quote:I'm in the real world. I appreciate that someone has to earn the tax - which at present is largely the low paid migrants, because the Tory-supporting wealthy bastards look for any opportunity to avoid paying tax. Funny that.
Most people live in the real world - again the lefties on the ship are exempt from that - in which money has to be earnt by people who don't rely on taxes for their wages.
quote:And wtf is that supposed to mean?
They recognise that the wealth creation parts of the economy need to be protected and allowed to flourish otherwise they will no earn anything.
quote:Yeah. Like that Marx fella, he didn't stop to think about the nature of Capital at all, did he? Socialist bastard, writing down a couple of random thoughts on the back of a fag-packet without doing any proper thinking-through.
It is a pretty simple idea really but like most simple ideas some people find it very hard to grasp. Socialists mainly and the young who don't think things through very well.
quote:Well done. Nicely missed the point there. No explanation for why Labour’s administration haven’t resulted in hover-boots and a life of leisure with robots waiting on us all, of course but then again I really didn’t expect one. Why hasn’t Labour done better?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:You really are a total prick. That is all crap.
Originally posted by deano:
Perhaps it is because everyone (except those on the Ship of course - it would be too painful for them to question their political stances) has seen that despite regular Labour administrations since the Second World War, they have not actually managed to make things better for that group of people. Or indeed many other groups of people.
quote:Well I guess the feminist movement never happened in your part of the world. In my part of the world the men in the Consrvative Party looked to the best person to do the job and elected them into a position to do it.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:Those two thoughts have absolutely nothing to do with each other. The Labour movement and party has made lives better since the war and have not elected women leaders. The Tories have made things worse and have had women leaders.
Originally posted by deano:
Even the Conservative Party has managed to elect two women leaders, both of whom became Prime Minister. How many from the left? The glass ceiling remains unbroken on the mysogynistic left.
quote:Then explain why it is Conservative Governments who have actually closed more of those loopeholes than any Labour Government ever did. Look at the naming and shaming policies and the closing of tax-havens.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:I'm in the real world. I appreciate that someone has to earn the tax - which at present is largely the low paid migrants, because the Tory-supporting wealthy bastards look for any opportunity to avoid paying tax. Funny that.
Originally posted by deano:
Most people live in the real world - again the lefties on the ship are exempt from that - in which money has to be earnt by people who don't rely on taxes for their wages.
quote:Well they are simple word and a few minutes with a dictionary should help, or if you have one, perhaps talk to a friend with an IQ greater than his or her shoe size.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:And wtf is that supposed to mean?
Originally posted by deano:
They recognise that the wealth creation parts of the economy need to be protected and allowed to flourish otherwise they will no earn anything.
quote:Jo Rowling spent a lot of time thinking about magic, but neither it nor Hogwarts exist. Marx was wrong. His ideas were shown to be dodgy a few years after he had stopped fiddling with the maid (there’s that lefty misogyny again) and wrote down his errant nonsense. One of his basic premises was that employees would become poorer. They didn’t and later revisions missed out those tables entirely.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:Yeah. Like that Marx fella, he didn't stop to think about the nature of Capital at all, did he? Socialist bastard, writing down a couple of random thoughts on the back of a fag-packet without doing any proper thinking-through.
Originally posted by deano:
It is a pretty simple idea really but like most simple ideas some people find it very hard to grasp. Socialists mainly and the young who don't think things through very well.
Or that Nye Bevan, he never stopped to think what the impact of an NHS might be, did he.
The one thing that binds all Socialist reformers is the lack of thinking-things-through.
Yeah, whatever.
quote:Yeah, why haven't Labour produced hoverboots. That's exactly the question people are asking.
Originally posted by deano:
Well done. Nicely missed the point there. No explanation for why Labour’s administration haven’t resulted in hover-boots and a life of leisure with robots waiting on us all, of course but then again I really didn’t expect one. Why hasn’t Labour done better?
quote:And yeah, she's doing such a fucking great job.
Well I guess the feminist movement never happened in your part of the world. In my part of the world the men in the Consrvative Party looked to the best person to do the job and elected them into a position to do it.
quote:Fuck off.
I suspect the Labour Party looked at women and asked them to fetch a cloth if something needed dusting.
quote:Bullshit. Arsebandit.
Then explain why it is Conservative Governments who have actually closed more of those loopeholes than any Labour Government ever did. Look at the naming and shaming policies and the closing of tax-havens.
quote:Yeah, because all those industrialists throughout the last 60 years have primarily been supporters of the Labour party and the agenda of improving the lot of working people rather than the Tory party which was only interested in assisting them to feather their own bottom line.
It’s probably so they can try to recover the tax all those wealthy Labour politicians and supporters from Tony Blair’s Governments salted away.
quote:I'm surprised you can say anything. Your own fist must be thrust so far down your throat that I'm surprised any noise comes out at all.
At least I can honestly say I never voted for him. The shame of those who did must be terrible.
quote:Yeah. I should have a book on my shelf which will help. It is called "Deciphering the nonsense posted by mindless trolls on bulletin boards".
Well they are simple word and a few minutes with a dictionary should help, or if you have one, perhaps talk to a friend with an IQ greater than his or her shoe size.
quote:Fuck off. Given your obvious inability to spell or write more than two coherent words, nobody is ever going to be asking you for any help on that score.
If you are really struggling I suppose one ought to help you.
quote:And how do you think they're creating wealth, oh fount of all economic wisdom? Magic?
Governments don’t create wealth. They don’t make money. They only take money from people who do make money. These businesses are called wealth-creators.
quote:I suggest you go and talk to Kezia Dugdale (you know, Labour Party leader). She may push you through that glass ceiling from above. If you're lucky there will still be an NHS to treat the lacerations you'll receive from the broken glass.
Originally posted by deano:
I suspect the Labour Party looked at women and asked them to fetch a cloth if something needed dusting.
quote:Bollocks.
Governments don’t create wealth. They don’t make money.
quote:Keynes thought that governments do create wealth. For thirty years after the Second World War both Labour and Conservative governments worked to Keynes' theory. Result: living standards for everyone in the country steadily rose.
Originally posted by deano:
Governments don’t create wealth. They don’t make money.
quote:
Governments don’t create wealth. They don’t make money.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:The Bank of England might have a thing or two to say about that...
Originally posted by Jane R:
deano:quote:
Governments don’t create wealth. They don’t make money.
Tell that to the Royal Mint. The government is the ONLY agency in the UK that has the legal right to make money.
Everyone else is just moving it around.
quote:That may have been deano's original point (if he had a point beyond spewing random bile) but what he *actually said* was that the government didn't make money. This is demonstrably false; the only reason why the monetary system works is because we have governments and the rule of law backing it. Otherwise anybody could set up a counterfeiting operation in their kitchen and commerce would grind to a halt.
But presumably the point is that these institutions aren't increasing the money supply...
quote:A touch of the old homophobia there, eh, mr. cheesy?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Bullshit. Arsebandit.
quote:Those were just the things from 1997-
Originally posted by deano:
But just to answer Doc Tor’s wash of verbal diarrhoea, his blah actually confirms my point. All of those things he listed have not been seen by the average person, or even the below average person described in the OP, as benefiting them.
quote:And while I'm on (and apparently have immunity from flood control)
Originally posted by deano:
1) They are okay but we’d have got them from a Conservative Government anyway sooner or later
quote:Just on an interesting side tangent, it's often forgotten that the Labour party's factional infighting meant that it was the last of the 3 main parties to promise in its 1945 manifesto to implement the Beveridge report.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I'm not sure how deano can say that the Tories would eventually have given us various good things. They tend to be the ones who close them down.
Although, you have to also credit the old Liberals, who did bring in various stuff, e.g. pensions, in fact, you could describe Lloyd George as the founder of the welfare state. The Tories tend to chop it.
quote:Even though this is hell, I must confess that having just gone back to check I was right in my memory of what happened I can't actually find the source. Therefore, I'm quite happy to be wrong on this but if I've dreamed it then I really need better dreams!
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:Just on an interesting side tangent, it's often forgotten that the Labour party's factional infighting meant that it was the last of the 3 main parties to promise in its 1945 manifesto to implement the Beveridge report.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I'm not sure how deano can say that the Tories would eventually have given us various good things. They tend to be the ones who close them down.
Although, you have to also credit the old Liberals, who did bring in various stuff, e.g. pensions, in fact, you could describe Lloyd George as the founder of the welfare state. The Tories tend to chop it.
The Tories and the Liberals both pledged to set up the NHS while Labour was fighting with itself about whether the welfare state wasn't something that could wait as the main priority should be nationalisation of industry. I mean, well done to Mr Attlee for winning the argument in his own party, but the provisions of Beveridge would have happened pretty well regardless of who was in office.
quote:Despite widespread political support, the Welsh Assembly was approved in a referendum with a 50.3% 'Yes' vote on something like a 50% turnout. Given Mr Blair's recent comments about Brexit, I'm surprised he and fellow Blairites haven't called for a second referendum in Wales as the first wasn't clear enough...
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Welsh Assembly
quote:I seem to remember that the Liberal plan for state education was to include all schools. Yes, Eton, Harrow, Winchester, Roedean, prep schools, the lot.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The Liberal welfare reforms were pretty impressive really, and, some argue, like a firework giving off splendid sparks before falling to earth! Leading up to WWI, I suppose. Oh, I am forgetting the glorious recrudescence in the coalition government with Cameron, how could I.
quote:No. The private company is the wealth creator, remember. Workers don't create wealth. You aren't creating wealth. Only businesses create wealth.
Originally posted by deano:
I’m working at the moment, creating wealth for the private company who is my current client.
quote:The Labour Party was probably waiting for a woman leader to implement it...
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Got it - Wiki on the Welfare State says Liberals, then Tories, then Labour FWIW. I thought it was unlikely I'd imagined it - the story was far too specific!
quote:I thought for one surreal moment that deano was going to say that the economic value of a good or service is determined by the total amount of socially necessary labour required to produce it, rather than by the use or pleasure its owner gets from it.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:No. The private company is the wealth creator, remember. Workers don't create wealth. You aren't creating wealth. Only businesses create wealth.
Originally posted by deano:
I’m working at the moment, creating wealth for the private company who is my current client.
If you start thinking that you're creating wealth you might start wondering why the wealth you're creating is going to someone else out of which they graciously pay you. You might start thinking that you should be getting the wealth you create. And then before you know it you're half way down the slippery slope to Marxism.
No. Remember: businesses create wealth. Not workers like you.
quote:Yes because they don't exist anymore.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Whereas Mrs T and Mayhem have done such a wonderful job in dismantling the welfare state, the NHS, social housing, state education and all the rest that it seems impossible to imagine them putting them into place in the first place.
quote:Don't get sick deano ...
Originally posted by deano:
quote:Yes because they don't exist anymore.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Whereas Mrs T and Mayhem have done such a wonderful job in dismantling the welfare state, the NHS, social housing, state education and all the rest that it seems impossible to imagine them putting them into place in the first place.
Oh, hang on....
quote:In all fairness, Kezia Dugdale is an example of promoting women for the sake of promoting women. Her spectacular incompetence does a disservice to aspiring, capable women anywhere.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:I suggest you go and talk to Kezia Dugdale (you know, Labour Party leader). She may push you through that glass ceiling from above. If you're lucky there will still be an NHS to treat the lacerations you'll receive from the broken glass.
Originally posted by deano:
I suspect the Labour Party looked at women and asked them to fetch a cloth if something needed dusting.
quote:Well, at least she is nowhere near as incompetent as Theresa Mayhem.
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:In all fairness, Kezia Dugdale is an example of promoting women for the sake of promoting women. Her spectacular incompetence does a disservice to aspiring, capable women anywhere.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:I suggest you go and talk to Kezia Dugdale (you know, Labour Party leader). She may push you through that glass ceiling from above. If you're lucky there will still be an NHS to treat the lacerations you'll receive from the broken glass.
Originally posted by deano:
I suspect the Labour Party looked at women and asked them to fetch a cloth if something needed dusting.
quote:He is only posting because his viagra prescription hasn't been refilled. He'll be done flaming when his wrist gets tired.
Originally posted by molopata:
I might add though, that that does not make Deano right.
quote:Two of doc's "highlights" of post-war policies that have improved that person's lot in life were...
anyone who is working on an average wage, (occasionally to regularly) sick, has a youngster under 18 or a close relative over about 70 would vote Tory.
quote:I just finished off your sentence properly for you. You can thank me by buggering off, or even better by voting Green at the next election (cos, they're socialist with a woman leader, you'll like them).
Originally posted by deano:
Just to ram home the point about why.... I'm a complete numpty and a walking advert for why intelligent people who care about something more than making the rich richer should vote for anyone other than the Tories/UKIP
quote:Fuck off. I am neither a Marxist nor believe meat is murder. You, on the other hand, are a turd.
Originally posted by deano:
I admit that to the no borders, meat is murder, Marxists but scared to admit it types that make up the majority of the ship they are shining beacons of policies, but to the 'jams' that Mr Cheesy described above they are nothing but a waste of time and money and irrelevant to them.
quote:Or it could just be people like you are actually brainless and are turkeys voting for Christmas.
That's why voters are leaving Labour in droves.
quote:Oh no! Let me re-examine my principles.. employment rights, maternity rights, a working NHS, sickness benefits.. yeah, those are all fucking irrelevant to the majority.
Most shippies of course cannot admit to that. They simply cannot believe that their politics are irrelevant to the majority.
quote:Fuck off.
The admission of their wrongness would depress them hugely.
quote:
blah, blah, blah, blather blather
quote:There you go, Deano, fixed it for you.
Originally posted by deano:
I suspect the Labour Party looked at women and asked them to fetch a cloth if something needed dusting. [Citation needed]
I'm in the real world. [Citation needed]
Then explain why it is Conservative Governments who have actually closed more of those loopeholes than any Labour Government ever did. [Citation needed]
Governments don’t create wealth. They don’t make money. They only take money from people who do make money. These businesses are called wealth-creators. [Citation needed]
If you take too much money from wealth-crating companies, or call them nasty names like capitalistic pigs, they will most likely move away from your country and employ people in another country. [Citation needed]
Which brings me back to my original point. Labour has had many administrations since the war and they have accomplished so very little. [Citation needed]
They have failed time and time again to do anything to make things better to any kind of average person except that once. [Citation needed]
quote:I don't deny we on the right do use violence as a solution if required, usually by using the armed forces.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In Deano's world, apparently, if a tiny minority engage in violence, "the left" is violent.
You know, I was kicked in by a white, male Tory once. Evidently all white, male Tories are violent.
Deano openly boasts he spat in Arthur Scargill's pint once. So much for his graceful acceptance of the NUM's democratic choice of leader eh?
Why am I responding to this cretin?
quote:Added to which, if there doesn't happen to have been a convenient riot coinciding with some election result he just invents one. I think he must be trying for the position of press secretary for Mrs May, who seems to be such a big admirer of Trump and his press corps who are so skilled at "alternative facts".
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In Deano's world, apparently, if a tiny minority engage in violence, "the left" is violent.
quote:Come see the violence inherent in the system.
Originally posted by deano:
I don't deny we on the right do use violence as a solution if required, usually by using the armed forces.
quote:I regard myself as left of centre, so to the extent that there are sides here, AFZ, I'm on yours.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Care to back up your assertions or should we just take your word for it?
AFZ
quote:I can assure you that you are nauseous but I suspect you mean nauseated. (Although the OED does concede the common usage).
Originally posted by deano:
The stench of hypocrisy from the left is enough to make one nauseous.
quote:I don't know about no words. I've heard members of her own party in the county refer to her as The Odious rather than The Honourable.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: Pauline Latham MP
There are no words to express how despicable this woman is.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
"Bullocks" ??!!
I know this is the place of farm implements and such like but am suspecting the spell checker has provided us with a giggle there AFZ
bloody corrective text you are a mother forklift!quote:I hear you brother. My inner pedant hates the word nauseous. And it is a genuine English word. But, once again it demonstrates we have been overcome by cockwombles.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
I can assure you that you are nauseous but I suspect you mean nauseated. (Although the OED does concede the common usage).
quote:I suspect the answer to that is "very few".
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
The question is how many of the UK's poorest really aspire to a more equal society, rather than aspiring to doing better themselves, even if that means someone else ends up back down where they once were?
quote:What have Labour ever done for us?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Minimum wage
Scottish devolution
Welsh Assembly
Good Friday Agreement
Sure Start
Abolished Section 28
Banned fox hunting
Bus passes for the over 60s
Free museum entry
Free nursery places
Low inflation
Youth unemployment cut by 75%
36000 more teachers
85000 more nurses
Introduced A&E waiting time target which is mostly met
500000 fewer children in poverty
Crime falls by 1/3
Civil partnerships
Abolished lower limit on Gift Aid
Clean air, water and beaches
Increased maternity leave and introduced paternity leave
quote:EM's point was that people want to do better themselves, rather than wanting a more equal or equitable society for everyone.
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Alright, but apart from:
[see above for the list]
What have Labour ever done for us?
quote:And that there is the legacy of Thatcher and the reason society is screwed. It's the tragedy of the commons writ large.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
EM's point was that people want to do better themselves, rather than wanting a more equal or equitable society for everyone.
quote:Woopie do. What a surprise, the Tory bastards don't fancy paying for healthcare for everyone or schools for everyone or healthcare for everyone - because from their leafy suburbs and jobs (oh, did I tell you, I've just returned from Dubai where I have been negotiating a massive contract, you wouldn't believe what I have there, you wouldn't believe what they pay me - silly money - pass the progreso would you?) they can't see beyond the end of their own noses.
Of the 21 items on the list you just quoted:
9 either do not concern me at all or are things I dislike (e.g. the foxhunting ban).
7 are nice to read about in the news but don't have any real impact on my life.
3 could possibly affect me in the future, but not for many years.
quote:Well, what a surprise! There is another thing you don't use and you don't want to pay for!
That leaves only free museum entry and low inflation. I regard the former as a good thing, but wouldn't be too upset if it went away as I could easily afford to pay for entry on the few occasions when I go to museums. Low inflation is something that all parties want, so isn't really unique to Labour.
quote:Oh yes! I am now enlightened! I totally understand!
I know I'm only one person, but even so listing a bunch of things that aren't important to people isn't much of a way to convince then that Labour would be the best option for them. And that's without considering the point that many of those things are done now, so we don't need Labour to do them again.
quote:There's plenty of things I'm willing to pay for even if we don't use them. Trident for example.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well, what a surprise! There is another thing you don't use and you don't want to pay for!
quote:They elected one woman leader.
Originally posted by deano:
Even the Conservative Party has managed to elect two women leaders
quote:OK then, can you explain why? It's a sizeable slice of government spending let alone the defence budget.
Originally posted by deano:
quote:There's plenty of things I'm willing to pay for even if we don't use them. Trident for example.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well, what a surprise! There is another thing you don't use and you don't want to pay for!
quote:although had the vote gone ahead with the two names that were on the ballot at the time, they would have elected 2.
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
The other one became leader by default when all the other candidates dropped out.
quote:When they've elected a leader who isn't white, hasn't been to a private school and/or oxbridge, isn't born into wealth or all of the above - then they'll have something to crow about.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
although had the vote gone ahead with the two names that were on the ballot at the time, they would have elected 2.
quote:Well, John Major ticks every box except colour.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
When they've elected a leader who isn't white, hasn't been to a private school and/or oxbridge, isn't born into wealth or all of the above - then they'll have something to crow about.
quote:I'm not a Conservative but certainly, the topic of the thread - compassion - is worth discussing.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder if Conservatives are shy about talking about the actual topic?
quote:Perhaps, but that's the world we live in and the electorate Labour has to reach.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:And that there is the legacy of Thatcher and the reason society is screwed. It's the tragedy of the commons writ large.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
EM's point was that people want to do better themselves, rather than wanting a more equal or equitable society for everyone.
quote:Me and a lot of other people that you need to convince to vote for Labour if you ever want the party to be in Government again. Do you think insults are going to achieve that?
YOU'RE A FUCKING PRICK.
quote:And Michael Howard is a practising Jew, of course, though I don't think anyone would claim he isn't 'white'. He's grammar school educated too, along with Edward Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major (as you mention above), William Hague and, I think, Theresa May.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Also, although he was a member of the CofE (from the age of 12), they have rather famously been lead by someone who was racially a Sephardic Jew, and who faced a lot of prejudice because of it. That's about as close as any British major party has come yet to non-white leaders.
quote:If you think politics is only about pandering to your tiny little life and ignoring everyone else because who gives a shit about them - then you're part of the problem not part of the solution.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Me and a lot of other people that you need to convince to vote for Labour if you ever want the party to be in Government again. Do you think insults are going to achieve that?
quote:Hague went to a comp - Wikipedia rather naughtily has him down as going to Wath-upon-Dearne Grammar but given the school was formally redesignated as a comprehensive in 1972 (when Hague was 11) then even if he did go there when it was a grammar it can only have been for literally a matter of days.
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:And Michael Howard is a practising Jew, of course, though I don't think anyone would claim he isn't 'white'. He's grammar school educated too, along with Edward Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major (as you mention above), William Hague and, I think, Theresa May.
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Also, although he was a member of the CofE (from the age of 12), they have rather famously been lead by someone who was racially a Sephardic Jew, and who faced a lot of prejudice because of it. That's about as close as any British major party has come yet to non-white leaders.
quote:It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you think politics is only about pandering to your tiny little life and ignoring everyone else because who gives a shit about them - then you're part of the problem not part of the solution.
If you don't like being called a vapid, selfish Tory bastard then don't be one.
quote:Because socialism is built on the idea of working people standing up for each other - and the greater good - rather than the wishes of middle class jerks who think everyone has the privileges and freedoms that they do.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?
quote:Well you are wrong. Tories are utterly devoid of compassion. That's not a fault of their political persuasion, it's a feature. They want to do as little as possible for anyone else, period.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I didn't intend to call all Conservatives to Hell. My target was quite specifically a small minority who appear to have let go of common decency and respect for others. There have been some outrageous things said recently - my OP highlighted comments about child refugees, the disabled, protection of women against domestic abuse - things which even a large number of Conservatives said were unacceptable. That was the target of my OP< and yes the title was chosen to drip with sarcasm, enough that those drips now form a small sea where they've accumulated.
quote:And here's where you and I must agree to differ too. The modern neo-liberal policies have had many of the effects you mention but they are far from being confined to the Conservative Party. The Blair/Mandelson Labour Party and the post Charles Kennedy LibDems went that way too. As others have pointed out they give a false hope of wealth which deano, Marvin and a few more here but tens of millions across the country are clinging too. Who knows: they might win the Euromillions lottery, it's as likely.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:Well you are wrong. Tories are utterly devoid of compassion. That's not a fault of their political persuasion, it's a feature. They want to do as little as possible for anyone else, period.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I didn't intend to call all Conservatives to Hell. My target was quite specifically a small minority who appear to have let go of common decency and respect for others. There have been some outrageous things said recently - my OP highlighted comments about child refugees, the disabled, protection of women against domestic abuse - things which even a large number of Conservatives said were unacceptable. That was the target of my OP< and yes the title was chosen to drip with sarcasm, enough that those drips now form a small sea where they've accumulated.
quote:I both agree and disagree. On an individual level, of course there are conservatives with compassion.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I have always assumed (perhaps somewhat naively) that part of British values has always included concern and care for others, and considering the needs of others - especially when the cost to oneself is small. As a nation we are generous, supporting charities that benefit others. I don't think many people give up those ideals when they enter the voting booth. I'm sure that for the majority of Tories and those who vote for them pure selfishness is not part of who they are - they recognise the value in everyone having a quality education, access to healthcare, welfare when needed, that as a nation we should help refugees etc. Mostly the disagreement with the rest of us is about the details of what is the best, and the best way to achieve it.
I didn't intend to call all Conservatives to Hell. My target was quite specifically a small minority who appear to have let go of common decency and respect for others. There have been some outrageous things said recently - my OP highlighted comments about child refugees, the disabled, protection of women against domestic abuse - things which even a large number of Conservatives said were unacceptable. That was the target of my OP< and yes the title was chosen to drip with sarcasm, enough that those drips now form a small sea where they've accumulated.
quote:And on some issues have meanwhile already overshot them. You know times are bad when you see a TV interview with villain emeritus George W. Bush and think, "at last a voice of moderation and reason".
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The Conservatives are not yet Republicans, but they have been heading there as fast as their feet will fly.
quote:When I look at the current UK government, and that of David Cameron, even Margaret Thatcher had some compassion about her.
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:And on some issues have meanwhile already overshot them. You know times are bad when you see a TV interview with villain emeritus George W. Bush and think, "at last a voice of moderation and reason".
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The Conservatives are not yet Republicans, but they have been heading there as fast as their feet will fly.
quote:Unfortunately you are part of the "anyone else", so it's no wonder we want to help. Some of our help might splash on to you and that would be wrong.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Well you are wrong. Tories are utterly devoid of compassion. That's not a fault of their political persuasion, it's a feature. They want to do as little as possible for anyone else, period.
quote:No, all the words make sense knobcheese. Just because YOU don't understad them, doesn't mean everyie else is as thick as you are.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Do you even know what the words mean that tumble out of your keyboard? Do they make sense inside your head or is it just that you've been drinking under your desk?
quote:But I don't feel poorly so no.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're a real sick fuck Deano. Have you ever considered the possibility you might be a sociopath? In your case it'd almost be an excuse for being such a knob.
quote:Yeah, way to go with that extremism, dickwad.
Originally posted by deano:
1) I don't want to pay any taxes, just in case any of the money gets spent on you.
quote:You're a dangerous, sick, xenophobic bastard. If there was any justice in the world, you'd either be in prison or having counseling for your sociopathy.
2) I hope that you are poorly and poor, because it would heighten the pleasure I get from (1) above.
There. I don't know how I can make it any clearer without using diagrams.
quote:Oh that we could see ourselves as others see us.
Originally posted by deano:
quote:But I don't feel poorly so no.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're a real sick fuck Deano. Have you ever considered the possibility you might be a sociopath? In your case it'd almost be an excuse for being such a knob.
quote:There it is.
Originally posted by deano:
I don't want to pay any taxes, just in case any of the money gets spent on you.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:Do you seriously think everyone who votes Labour is voting on socialist principles rather than what's in their own best interests?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:Because socialism is built on the idea of working people standing up for each other - and the greater good - rather than the wishes of middle class jerks who think everyone has the privileges and freedoms that they do.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?
In voting on socialist principles, one is by definition voting for something that is in the interests of a large number of people - for example maternity rights.
quote:No, but you know what? In the ranks of being a selfish prick, voting for policies that help you as a rich person at the expense of the poor and vulnerable rates a damned site higher than voting for policies that help you as a poor person at the expense of rich people who won't be turning up at the nearest food bank as a result.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Do you seriously think everyone who votes Labour is voting on socialist principles rather than what's in their own best interests?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:Because socialism is built on the idea of working people standing up for each other - and the greater good - rather than the wishes of middle class jerks who think everyone has the privileges and freedoms that they do.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?
In voting on socialist principles, one is by definition voting for something that is in the interests of a large number of people - for example maternity rights.
quote:I'm trying to remember which Labour politician said that if they were successful they would become unelectable, as people would start to take for granted most of the things labour governments had put in place. I'm sure it's happening.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Do you seriously think everyone who votes Labour is voting on socialist principles rather than what's in their own best interests?
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:Because socialism is built on the idea of working people standing up for each other - and the greater good - rather than the wishes of middle class jerks who think everyone has the privileges and freedoms that they do.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's almost as if you think Tories are the only people who vote based on what they think is best for themselves. Or is there a category in your thinking for vapid, selfish Labour bastards?
In voting on socialist principles, one is by definition voting for something that is in the interests of a large number of people - for example maternity rights.
quote:I think voting for whichever party makes your own life better without caring about the impact on anyone else is exactly the same sin (if sin it be) regardless of which party that happens to be.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In the ranks of being a selfish prick, voting for policies that help you as a rich person at the expense of the poor and vulnerable rates a damned site higher than voting for policies that help you as a poor person at the expense of rich people who won't be turning up at the nearest food bank as a result.
quote:It's not about that. It's about asking the question "if this vote benefits me, whom does it disadvantage?"
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:I think voting for whichever party makes your own life better without caring about the impact on anyone else is exactly the same sin (if sin it be) regardless of which party that happens to be.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In the ranks of being a selfish prick, voting for policies that help you as a rich person at the expense of the poor and vulnerable rates a damned site higher than voting for policies that help you as a poor person at the expense of rich people who won't be turning up at the nearest food bank as a result.
If you're going to criticise selfish voting then you can't really restrict that criticism only to those whose selfishness causes them to vote other than how you think they should.
quote:You may be on to something there. I'm far from young any more, and as far as my lifetime is concerned there's always been an NHS despite well over half of that lifetime (25 out of 38 years, not including 2017) being under Conservative or Conservative-led coalition governments. It is very much something that is now taken for granted as a part of British life
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm trying to remember which Labour politician said that if they were successful they would become unelectable, as people would start to take for granted most of the things labour governments had put in place. I'm sure it's happening.
quote:Yes. And my point is that very few people on either side ask that question in the first place.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's not about that. It's about asking the question "if this vote benefits me, whom does it disadvantage?"
quote:Come on then, dozy twat, tell us exactly what "well-paid" means. Give us a number in pounds and pence.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Apart from anything else, the Tories are dishonest. They want to have us believe that it is the immigrant, the person on welfare, the sick who are costing the money. That the country needs the money-grabbing bastards - to the extent that all of us poor taxpayers have to subsidise all the stingy well-paid Tories by building them roads we can't use, airports we don't visit, trains we can't afford.
quote:All mouth. You're scared to put a number on it because you know it will piss off your lefty mates on the ship.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
No. Fuck off.
quote:You missed out golf and the 4x4.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you are a thieving selfish Tory bastard, it is quite obvious: you live in a leafy suburb in an expensive house, you commute to work for your six-digit salary, you've moved recently to get your kid into a "good" school, you think that the rest of the country - a vast majority - who earn less than you do somehow is benefiting from your existence AND you object to paying tax.
It isn't about your salary as much as your shitty money-grabbing, Tory attitude.
quote:Haha, I am many things, but envious of you and your pathetic life I am not.
Originally posted by deano:
Comment all you like about what you imagine my life is like - I have no intention of confirming or denying any of it - but I think most people will have seen enough of you to recognise anger borne of envy.
quote:I have been in counselling. Nothing to be ashamed of.
You might want to think about getting professional counselling.
quote:I don't know about the view being naive. Rose-tinted is how I would describe that view.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I have always assumed (perhaps somewhat naively) that part of British values has always included concern and care for others, and considering the needs of others - especially when the cost to oneself is small. As a nation we are generous, supporting charities that benefit others. I don't think many people give up those ideals when they enter the voting booth. I'm sure that for the majority of Tories and those who vote for them pure selfishness is not part of who they are - they recognise the value in everyone having a quality education, access to healthcare, welfare when needed, that as a nation we should help refugees etc. Mostly the disagreement with the rest of us is about the details of what is the best, and the best way to achieve it.
quote:No what make Britain Great was the willingness to throw the masses of working people down the mine, in the mills and factories and not giving a single shit about their lives, as long as the comfortable got more comfortable. The Tory Empire attitude which extended beyond the uncouth Welsh, Irish and Scots and to anyone else that they could exploit for profit.
Originally posted by deano:
What made Britain Great was the 12-pounder field gun and a willingness to use it.
quote:That's also true for me. A bit of luck being born in a reasonably well off middle class family. Support from the NHS there when it was needed. Quality, free education in a state comprehensive school (though being a middle class family, would have probably made it into a grammar school had that inferior model been the only option). Free university education, building on a history of such education option such that it was seen as an option rather than an expectation of leaving school straight into work. A career that has been built in a large part on funding from the UK government and the EU. Even if I was just looking for my own interests, I would want to do all I can to ensure that my children have the same (or better) opportunities. But, I believe that it is good for the nation as a whole (and, hence, indirectly to the good of those I care for if that was my main consideration) that those opportunities are available to all. Even the opportunities I never took advantage of - freedom to study and work in the EU, for example.
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I would also count myself among the well paid - but equally I'd say that that's in large part due to opportunities presented to me and not just at the level of 'I could have been blind, and born in Tibet in the 13th century'. Not insignificantly, I was among the cohort of people who had my university fees paid and even got a maintenance grant.
quote:This. Especially recently. Just where are all the promised improvements for the JAMs (just about managing). I am upset about this for them, not me. Neither us nor our sons are in that bracket, we have good wages/pensions.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Apart from anything else, the Tories are dishonest. They want to have us believe that it is the immigrant, the person on welfare, the sick who are costing the money. That the country needs the money-grabbing bastards - to the extent that all of us poor taxpayers have to subsidise all the stingy well-paid Tories by building them roads we can't use, airports we don't visit, trains we can't afford.
They take-take-take but then think the deal is that they can tell everyone else what it is that they want to pay for "oh, I don't use museums, why should I have to pay for them.." as if that's somehow equivalent to the piles of cash and advantage that has somehow miraculously appeared in their back pockets.
Yes you should have to pay for museums and the arts, you selfish prick.
quote:What? Grey?
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:Well, John Major ticks every box except colour.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
When they've elected a leader who isn't white, hasn't been to a private school and/or oxbridge, isn't born into wealth or all of the above - then they'll have something to crow about.
quote:Actually, your point seems to be that nobody should be asking it at all.
And my point is that very few people on either side ask that question in the first place.
quote:I don't think so, they've just reduced the "self" to the smallest possible units.
Originally posted by Jane R:
The thing is, they've even abandoned "enlightened self-interest."
quote:If you sit in a financial institution moving around intangible assets, I can well believe that you think a workforce of people actually doing something is superfluous. Indeed, what you actually want is a workforce of low skilled people who will get on with making money for you at the lowest cost with the least complaining. If they get sick and die, meh, there are more where they came from.
Enlightened self-interest requires a healthy, well-educated workforce. Hence the NHS and publicly funded education.
quote:If I can afford to live in a gated community or a beautiful rural village, then the crimes that the riff-raff have to live with rarely invade my space. Crime is just something to witness on the news and to rant about in the kitchen.
Enlightened self-interest requires a well-resourced, efficient police force to defend the rule of law (not this week, apparently).
quote:Not sure what to say about this one.
Enlightened self-interest needs a strong government to regulate monetary policy and make sure the trains run on time (even Mussolini managed that, for God's sake).
quote:On this one it appears that the self-interest lies somewhere in ensuring that all those foreigners know their place and don't get uppity. But I agree, it doesn't work on any level.
Enlightened self-interest would not deport a brilliant engineering student only months away from completing her degree, or separate a grandmother who also happens to be her husband's primary carer from her family and force her on a plane to the other side of the world where she doesn't know anybody. It would offer permanent residence to people from the rest of the EU currently in the UK - they have skills we need, or they wouldn't be here - instead of playing mind games with their future.
quote:They never were that. They were a party of privilege, hypocrisy and interference in the rights of others.
The Tories used to claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility, family values and law and order. They seem to have abandoned all that in favour of naked greed and unenlightened self-interest.
quote:But of course you want to force those people in the gated communities to suffer those crimes that affect the inner cities don't you? You feel that sharing the crimes out is better.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]If I can afford to live in a gated community or a beautiful rural village, then the crimes that the riff-raff have to live with rarely invade my space. Crime is just something to witness on the news and to rant about in the kitchen.
quote:Yes that describes the Labour Party perfectly. How you could vote for a party like Milliband and Blair led is beyond me you fascist.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]They never were that. They were a party of privilege, hypocrisy and interference in the rights of others.
quote:Fuck off you inane dickwad.
Originally posted by deano:
But of course you want to force those people in the gated communities to suffer those crimes that affect the inner cities don't you? You feel that sharing the crimes out is better.
quote:Fuck off you illiterate dickwad. Fascism is a right-wing not a left-wing belief, you utter pilchard.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yes that describes the Labour Party perfectly. How you could vote for a party like Milliband and Blair led is beyond me you fascist.
quote:Well, I was being sarcastic (the comment about Mussolini might have given you a hint).
Not sure what to say about this one.
quote:I'm not a thieving selfish Tory bastard then*. Hooray!
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you are a thieving selfish Tory bastard, it is quite obvious: you live in a leafy suburb in an expensive house, you commute to work for your six-digit salary, you've moved recently to get your kid into a "good" school, you think that the rest of the country - a vast majority - who earn less than you do somehow is benefiting from your existence AND you object to paying tax.
quote:Then you are sadly deluded that the Tory party has anything positive to offer you. It is not for you, it is just pretending by offering you things it has no intention of delivering to you.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm not a thieving selfish Tory bastard then*. Hooray!
quote:Sanctioned by the highly principled Liberal leader Lloyd George who diligently managed to save the hides of his own sons.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And when it came to the pointless Eton wargames over the fields of Flanders, there was a ready army of working people to tap for cannon-fodder.
quote:I own an ex-council house. Bought for a pittance but is now worth a lot, due in part to Blair's Labour Party housing inflation boom (cheers easy!).
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:I'm not a thieving selfish Tory bastard then*. Hooray!
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you are a thieving selfish Tory bastard, it is quite obvious: you live in a leafy suburb in an expensive house, you commute to work for your six-digit salary, you've moved recently to get your kid into a "good" school, you think that the rest of the country - a vast majority - who earn less than you do somehow is benefiting from your existence AND you object to paying tax.
quote:You really do need to get up to speed with this sort of thing you know. It makes you look a bit of a simpleton amongst your peers around here...
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]Fuck off you illiterate dickwad. Fascism is a right-wing not a left-wing belief, you utter pilchard.
quote:No you can't. Teabreak is over, call for the nurse.
Originally posted by deano:
Hey, cheesy-drip, can I ask
quote:You're in love with the free-market? What value is there other than that at which the house can be sold?
Originally posted by deano:
I own an ex-council house. Bought for a pittance but is now worth a lot, due in part to Blair's Labour Party housing inflation boom (cheers easy!).
So which valuation do I use? The one I paid or the one that reflects the value today? These things are important to get right because one ought to maximise the amount of Tory nastiness don't you think? These are what our grandparents fought and died for.
quote:"Fascist" is a word with a very specific definition, and just because many left-wingers often use it in too broad a manner doesn't mean it's right for right-wingers to do so as well.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yeah, all those fascists who are looking to spread human rights, to help the weakest, the immigrants, the minorities and the workers.
That totally happens.
quote:It's not trolling if it's true.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Arguing with Conservatives is something I can do, but a Conservative troll? What's the point? You just get a series of wind-ups.
quote:True? True that the left are more community minded, generous, socially aware and better at managing the nation's economy? Yes. Yes it is.
Originally posted by deano:
quote:It's not trolling if it's true.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Arguing with Conservatives is something I can do, but a Conservative troll? What's the point? You just get a series of wind-ups.
quote:'Great' in the case of this Country has been a bit of a self-aggrandisement. Great at spin doctoring and convincing the majority outside the ruling circle that they should be content with their lot.
Originally posted by Boogie:
'Great' is an interesting word for empire and exploitation - of our own poor and those in other lands.
I'm glad the days of empire are over - but plenty of exploitation continues.
Imagine Africa and the USA if Europe had left them entirely alone!
quote:High praise indeed. Thank you!
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I can discuss politics with someone like Marvin 'til the cows come home. We will probably never agree, but it will be an informative and intelligent conversation.
quote:All he's proved is that he isn't one.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If you'll note that the thread is ironically titled 'Compassionate Conservatives': you have simply proved that they're rarer than hens' teeth and the phrase deserves the scorn heaped upon it.
quote:Go on then, show your working how you can prove that the troll above is the exception rather than the rule. I don't think you can.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
All he's proved is that he isn't one.
quote:None of our previous discussions have ever indicated to me that you are compassionate or generous to your wider community or further afield. You're certainly more courteous than deano, but that's not the yardstick we're using.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:All he's proved is that he isn't one.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If you'll note that the thread is ironically titled 'Compassionate Conservatives': you have simply proved that they're rarer than hens' teeth and the phrase deserves the scorn heaped upon it.
quote:I don't see why I should have to. Over 11 million people voted Tory at the last general election, and to extrapolate from one person to all of them is ridiculous no matter which way you do it.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Go on then, show your working how you can prove that the troll above is the exception rather than the rule. I don't think you can.
quote:It's only ridiculous when it doesn't resemble the thing you say that you believe in. And doesn't resemble your words in this thread and elsewhere. You've had the opportunity to prove that you're not actually a selfish Tory bastard, you've had the opportunity to show that Conservatism is more than me-me-me privilege and you've failed to take it. More than that, you've reinforced the image of a privileged Tory voting bastard who is only really interested in himself.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't see why I should have to. Over 11 million people voted Tory at the last general election, and to extrapolate from one person to all of them is ridiculous no matter which way you do it.
quote:Why would they? Politics at a national or international level (i.e. what we discuss here) is a completely different beast to personal actions at more local levels.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
None of our previous discussions have ever indicated to me that you are compassionate or generous to your wider community or further afield.
quote:And there we have it again - not only is Tory politics about me-me-me, I don't even care that it isn't doing anything for anyone else (never mind the "least of these"), because my political theory doesn't extend beyond what the government should be doing to feather my nest.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If I get to the Pearly Gates and St Peter asks me for a character reference, I'll be pointing him towards the homeless on the streets of Birmingham rather than some people with whom I debate political theory on the internet. Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus say "I was hungry and thirsty, and you posted about how the government should be doing more to help me on an internet bulletin board. Come, take your inheritance."
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus say "I was hungry and thirsty, and you posted about how the government should be doing more to help me on an internet bulletin board. Come, take your inheritance."
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:Perhaps you should consider why I just said I'd ask the homeless on the streets of Birmingham for a character reference.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:And there we have it again - not only is Tory politics about me-me-me, I don't even care that it isn't doing anything for anyone else (never mind the "least of these"), because my political theory doesn't extend beyond what the government should be doing to feather my nest.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If I get to the Pearly Gates and St Peter asks me for a character reference, I'll be pointing him towards the homeless on the streets of Birmingham rather than some people with whom I debate political theory on the internet. Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus say "I was hungry and thirsty, and you posted about how the government should be doing more to help me on an internet bulletin board. Come, take your inheritance."
quote:Doesn't it cross your mind that the political philosophy you support put those unfortunates in that situation?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Perhaps you should consider why I just said I'd ask the homeless on the streets of Birmingham for a character reference.
quote:That assumes that the "dark" part is why people are getting hurt. But if it's not then providing more light isn't going to change anything.
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If people keep getting hurt in a dark alley, it is obviously well-and-good to support an ambulance system, but better to ensure the streetlights are working.
quote:You'd like to think it is, but it's not.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Why would they? Politics at a national or international level (i.e. what we discuss here) is a completely different beast to personal actions at more local levels.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
None of our previous discussions have ever indicated to me that you are compassionate or generous to your wider community or further afield.
quote:In your case, it's because you're (by the way you vote) pushing them in. Labour inherited a problem. When the Coalition came in, homelessness had fallen by 2/3rds. It's now going back up. A lot.
“There comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they’re falling in.”
quote:Other people suck as well is hardly a fantastic standard.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm not going to sit here and claim that I'm some kind of paragon of virtue and compassion in my local community, because I'm not. But neither am I any worse than most people you'll meet.
quote:Because the policies you support helped put them there?
If I get to the Pearly Gates and St Peter asks me for a character reference, I'll be pointing him towards the homeless on the streets of Birmingham
quote:Cute, but stupid. You are responsible for what you do, and that includes the repercussions of your voting.
Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus say "I was hungry and thirsty, and you posted about how the government should be doing more to help me on an internet bulletin board. Come, take your inheritance."
quote:Wrong way round. Labour fuck things up royally when they are in office and then the electorate realise they need someone to fix it so they vote Conservative.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The old saying about the US was that it produced private affluence, and public squalor, (Galbraith). The Tories also? Labour often come into office, and have to repair all the damage.
quote:[citation needed]
Originally posted by deano:
Labour fuck things up royally when they are in office and then the electorate realise they need someone to fix it so they vote Conservative.
Only the last time Labour was in power Brown and his cronies really fucked things up big time ti the pount where nine years later we are still having to fix it. But the electorate aren't stupid so they voted thenpm in again in 2015 because they know the scale of what Labour did.
quote:I'm just going to repeat: Labour governments are more fiscally conservative than Conservative governments. Borrowing is lower. Inflation is lower. Unemployment is lower. Labour has managed budget surpluses and has, surprisingly, spent less than the Tories on infrastructure investment.
Originally posted by rolyn:
I'm no Tory boy but the general consensus is that things weren't too great in 79. Then come 97 things only 'Got Better' under New Labour because they inherited Major's hard earned Green shoots
Having said all that, a future Britain without a credible opposition is disconcerting. Mind you it's easy to forget, given all Labour's current woe, that the Tories are only in government with a slender majority.
quote:This is not actually a good thing. Both spend to little on infrastructure and have a fix it when it fails attitude that is more costly than proper maintenance and building for the future.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
and has, surprisingly, spent less than the Tories on infrastructure investment.
quote:The reason it's taken nine years and still no end in sight is Osborne's economic policies were incompetent. Austerity doesn't work. It isn't working. It won't work. And as long as the Tories can keep blaming it on Labour and suckers keep buying their story the Tories have no incentive to make it work.
Originally posted by deano:
Only the last time Labour was in power Brown and his cronies really fucked things up big time ti the pount where nine years later we are still having to fix it.
quote:Indeed.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:The reason it's taken nine years and still no end in sight is Osborne's economic policies were incompetent. Austerity doesn't work. It isn't working. It won't work. And as long as the Tories can keep blaming it on Labour and suckers keep buying their story the Tories have no incentive to make it work.
Originally posted by deano:
Only the last time Labour was in power Brown and his cronies really fucked things up big time ti the pount where nine years later we are still having to fix it.
Brown deregulated the banks. Well, he shouldn't have. But did the Tories object at the time? No. Did they object later? No. Have they actually done anything about it to fix it? I've missed it if so.
Brown was handed an economic crash that started in the US because banks oversold rubbish mortgages. Brown and Darling pretty much stopped the rot. The UK economy and the world economy could be in a much worse place if Brown and Darling hadn't acted on a problem that was largely not their fault. And by May 2010 the economy was recovering.
And then Osborne got in and either through incompetence or on purpose screwed things up again. Do you remember all that talk of a double-dip recession? The reason we didn't get one was Osborne revised the figures.
quote:They not only didn't object, but the feeling at the time was that deregulation should have gone a lot further:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Brown deregulated the banks. Well, he shouldn't have. But did the Tories object at the time? No. Did they object later? No.
quote:Yep, this is one of my greatest annoyances. The Tories spend over a decade complaining that over-regulation in killing the UK economy. There when it turns out that the financial sector regulation was actually woefully too loose, they claim the moral high ground. Two things I am certain of in this context:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:They not only didn't object, but the feeling at the time was that deregulation should have gone a lot further:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Brown deregulated the banks. Well, he shouldn't have. But did the Tories object at the time? No. Did they object later? No.
https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-files/Politics/documents/2007/08/17/ECPGcomplete.pdf
quote:Yes, key quotes:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Yep, this is one of my greatest annoyances. The Tories spend over a decade complaining that over-regulation in killing the UK economy. There when it turns out that the financial sector regulation was actually woefully too loose, they claim the moral high ground.
quote:mr cheesy can be quite runny and the glop can get all over your fingers ...
Originally posted by deano:
quote:It's not trolling if it's true.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Arguing with Conservatives is something I can do, but a Conservative troll? What's the point? You just get a series of wind-ups.
Also it isn't trolling if that's how the other shippies paint you regardless of your actual opinions of course.
I mean someone who supported Ken Clarke in his bid to become leader of the Conservative Party is quite clearly a beastial nazi. Cheesy-drip has said so.
quote:I disagree. People are "falling in" for all kinds of reasons, many of them ultimately being due to their own poor choices. For what it's worth, I don't see any Party stopping people from falling in in the first place, they just have different approaches to pulling them out again.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
From Desmond Tutu:quote:In your case, it's because you're (by the way you vote) pushing them in.
“There comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they’re falling in.”
quote:Charitable giving means nothing if you don't vote for the correct Party. You heard it here first. Forget all that Bible stuff, the One and Only True Commandment is apparently "thou shalt vote Labour".
I'm sorry if you think you should get some credit for your philanthropy. That's not the way it works.
quote:But I do see a party that's deliberately throwing people under the bus. And that's the party you're voting for. And I do see a party that's deliberately not pulling them out again. And that's also the party you're voting for.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
People are "falling in" for all kinds of reasons, many of them ultimately being due to their own poor choices. For what it's worth, I don't see any Party stopping people from falling in in the first place, they just have different approaches to pulling them out again.
quote:Try not to be too much of a self-righteously indignant little shit about this. If you help make people homeless, you don't get credit for helping them when they're homeless. It's not a difficult connection to make.
Charitable giving means nothing if you don't vote for the correct Party. You heard it here first. Forget all that Bible stuff, the One and Only True Commandment is apparently "thou shalt vote Labour".
quote:I can agree with the second part, but not the first. And on the subject of the first, how exactly do you think any Party can prevent people from becoming homeless in the first place?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But I do see a party that's deliberately throwing people under the bus. And that's the party you're voting for. And I do see a party that's deliberately not pulling them out again. And that's also the party you're voting for.
quote:Again, there's a difference between making people homeless and not helping them when they are already homeless. And if I'm voting for a Party that does the latter then I think it's perfectly reasonable to make up the difference by helping the homeless when I can.
quote:Try not to be too much of a self-righteously indignant little shit about this. If you help make people homeless, you don't get credit for helping them when they're homeless. It's not a difficult connection to make.
Charitable giving means nothing if you don't vote for the correct Party. You heard it here first. Forget all that Bible stuff, the One and Only True Commandment is apparently "thou shalt vote Labour".
quote:I knew someone would say that! But posting that whole list would have spoiled the flow of my self-righteousness indignation
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Besides, it's perfectly acceptable to vote SNP, PC, LibDem, Green or some of the independents. It's only the ConUKIPers that are the problem.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:Seriously? You have to ask this? How about by not crushing them with punitive benefit sanctions? How about providing services for people with mental health problems that allows them to stay in their own homes? How about not taking housing benefit away from the most vulnerable? How about not putting in ridiculous work-capability assessments that are obviously and repeatedly unfair?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
how exactly do you think any Party can prevent people from becoming homeless in the first place?
quote:Oh ffs. You voted for the Leopards-eating-people's-faces party and you think it's okay because you run around with bandages to bind the wounds of those who've had their faces eaten by leopards.
Again, there's a difference between making people homeless and not helping them when they are already homeless. And if I'm voting for a Party that does the latter then I think it's perfectly reasonable to make up the difference by helping the homeless when I can.
quote:No, you don't have a different opinion about the best way to help the homeless. You have a different opinion about the best way to make people homeless. If you can't tell the difference, you're beyond saving.
And I'm amazed you can have the gall to talk about my self-righteousness after some of the shit that's been sent my way purely because I have a different opinion about the best way to help the homeless.
quote:
How about providing services for people with mental health problems that allows them to stay in their own homes? How about not taking housing benefit away from the most vulnerable? How about not putting in ridiculous work-capability assessments that are obviously and repeatedly unfair?
quote:Ah yes, the standard evasion. blame the poor for being poor.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I disagree. People are "falling in" for all kinds of reasons, many of them ultimately being due to their own poor choices. For what it's worth, I don't see any Party stopping people from falling in in the first place, they just have different approaches to pulling them out again.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:Well, this is now four years old, but here's a brilliant piece of work done by the Baptist Union of Great Britain, the Methodist Church, the Church of Scotland and the United Reformed Church:
So wickedly, devilishly false is that common
objection, ‘They are poor, only because they are
idle’.
John Wesley, 1753
quote:Doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still not true.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, you don't have a different opinion about the best way to help the homeless. You have a different opinion about the best way to make people homeless. If you can't tell the difference, you're beyond saving.
quote:Right back at you.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still not true.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, you don't have a different opinion about the best way to help the homeless. You have a different opinion about the best way to make people homeless. If you can't tell the difference, you're beyond saving.
quote:It is a pity that those "problem" parties are the one getting the votes that matter.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Besides, it's perfectly acceptable to vote SNP, PC, LibDem, Green or some of the independents. It's only the ConUKIPers that are the problem.
quote:True. For well-off fascists who don't give a shit it must be a wet dream. If we're going to be dragged to hell in a handcart, it may as well be as soon as possible.
Originally posted by deano:
quote:It is a pity that those "problem" parties are the one getting the votes that matter.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Besides, it's perfectly acceptable to vote SNP, PC, LibDem, Green or some of the independents. It's only the ConUKIPers that are the problem.
It isn't really a pity though.
quote:Deano, you're not at al compassionate. That should let you sleep more easily tonight. But your certainly not Conservative either - to the extent that you may be capable of forming some political thoughts, a far-right radical is much closer to the mark.
Originally posted by deano:
quote:It is a pity that those "problem" parties are the one getting the votes that matter.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Besides, it's perfectly acceptable to vote SNP, PC, LibDem, Green or some of the independents. It's only the ConUKIPers that are the problem.
It isn't really a pity though.
quote:That'd be former UKIP leader and general arse Nigel "Cabbage" Farage. You could google but I wouldn't bother if I was you.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Anselmina who's the "he" you refer to a bit in your post please?
quote:But only because his originally preferred option of being elevated to the House of Lords would mean that he'd have to step down as an MEP (and with that lose that salary and the associated perks).
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Don't forget buddy to Donald Trump, aspiring British Ambassador to the US and under the impression that destroying British society means he deserves a knighthood.
quote:For all his sins, Farage comes across as having intelligence. So no, he isn't.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Thanks - I thought that it was probably Farage, but was not certain. A nasty piece of work - is he Deano's twin separated at birth?
quote:Seriously: what. the. fuck. are. you. talking. about?
Originally posted by L'organist in a Purgatory thread:
Mrs May made what seems to be a commitment to a Trump state visit invitation so quickly because (a) she was the first foreign head of state to visit Washington after the election, and (b) it was being screeched by everyone - but especially the REMAIN camp - that the Brexit vote would leave the UK isolated and that we should protect the "special relationship" at all costs. The newspapers were also full of the view that UK trade would need to increase exports to the US after leaving the EU.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Mrs May shares any of Mr Trump's views, and to suggest otherwise is unfair. Far from being right wing (which you imply is automatically a bad thing) Mrs May has a reputation for being neither of the left nor the right. As for her being "uncaring", again where is your evidence?
The fact is, some people seem to be anti Mrs May simply because she is a conservative: that thinking is as sloppy as it would be for an assumption to be made that anyone who self-described as "left-wing" to have been in sympathy with the likes of George Galloway and Jeremy Corbyn.
quote:In the first place it certainly makes no sense because more people will become net claimants rather than contributors (in budgetary terms) and secondly 'ideological attacks of people who can least afford it' is the cornerstone, if not the millstone, of modern British Conservatism.
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
It makes no sense economically. It's an ideological attack on people who are the least able to fight back. The muppetry is astounding.
quote:But it's really easy to spin it as getting the welfare budget under control
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:In the first place it certainly makes no sense because more people will become net claimants rather than contributors (in budgetary terms) and secondly 'ideological attacks of people who can least afford it' is the cornerstone, if not the millstone, of modern British Conservatism.
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
It makes no sense economically. It's an ideological attack on people who are the least able to fight back. The muppetry is astounding.
Muppetry doesn't cover it. It is vindictiveness.
