Ship of Fools: May I please rip off your gonads?

Thread: May I please rip off your gonads? Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

[Host edit - the first article is an extremely difficult read, with graphic recounting of child abuse. If that's not something you want to read, or read at work, you've all been warned. DT]

I have no words to express my anger at snivelling fucktards who have shattered lives, shattered the remnant of gospel credibility of the church I once loved, made us and worse our Christ the spittoon of human consciousness.

Add to that the in depth report and no depths of hell suffice. In OZ we all knew it was coming but seeing the callousness of the perpetrators and the duplicity of their cover-all-up-at-all-costs colleagues - not to mention the sheer fucking dumbness of one or two who eventually saw the light (see the latter link, on pages 11-12, in which the man who later becomes Primate of Australia does not altogether object, as a young man, to noting that one of his friends is being taken off to bed by a rapist) and ...

... and what? I have no words. I feel sick, depressed, angry, vengeful ... and impotent. I missed the lure of some of these predators by a whisker. Others were far less fortunate.

I am angry beyond words. May their gonads be shoved so far up their sphincters that their cingulate and orbitofrontal cortexes implode in a cesspit of faecal plasma. [Mad]

[ 17. May 2017, 11:15: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

PS .. Mr Justice McLennan has released further wise commentary. Personally I think we should have our arses kicked down the gurgler. [Tear]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Hard to read. Terrible abuse, terrible that people knew but did nothing.

Of course, if you're a victim of abuse, you might not want to read these things - but those of us who can, should.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Errr... yeah, ok - you didn't know. But then you clearly did know because you sent the abuser away to a retreat to think about it.

What is wrong with you people?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

What's a "table of lamingtons"?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

.

words fail. Worse than the abuse is the knowing sending of an (even if at that stage only alleged) abuser to deliver the eulogy at the funeral of the mother of the reported victim. FFS.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Well, that was a tough read. I'd like to say nothing surprises me any more, but...

I'm also going to tack on a reader advisory to Zappa's OP. I think that wise.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Just appalling, and from people such as Ian Shevill whom we - outside the diocese - had respected. The damage done to these boys is immeasurable.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, that was a tough read. I'd like to say nothing surprises me any more, but...

I'm also going to tack on a reader advisory to Zappa's OP. I think that wise.

Thanks, Doc. Good call.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
What's a "table of lamingtons"?

To add to the cognitive dissonance and the sheer evil of the cynical perpetrators, it is a table full of these. ... to so trivialize the living hell of the victims is satanic to the max (them, not you)

[ 16. May 2017, 07:51: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To add to the cognitive dissonance and the sheer evil of the cynical perpetrators, it is a table full of these. ... to so trivialize the living hell of the victims is satanic to the max (them, not you)

Oh right. That just adds to the whole banality of evil of the episode.

Clearly these people thought they could do this stuff and nobody was ever going to be able to stop them. How awful.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Just appalling, and from people such as Ian Shevill whom we - outside the diocese - had respected. The damage done to these boys is immeasurable.

I read that link in total this morning and was sickened and revolted and anything else like that. I did not want to read it , not even a small amount but kept telling myself that there are those who live everyday with that having been done to them. The least I could do was read through the report.

Yes Shevill had respect by those who had no knowledge of it. And the on going repercussions continue with the resignation of the last bishop who could no longer cope withe the results of his cleaning up the diocese.

[ 16. May 2017, 08:33: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

The commission report is pretty sickening; a tissue of bishops "misremembering" if people had told them about abuse, "telling off" of abusers (I mean, wtf?), even promoting the abusers.

In the 1990s.

Really. Someone gives you reason to believe that a priest has been having sex with an underage boy and you just give him a slap and tell him not to do it again?

Seriously: what the actual? What planet were you living on?

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

Words fail. Zappa's suggestion for them seems apt.

I was up near Newcastle when the Royal Commission was in session [? correct term?] up there last year and would see a parade of men, often broken, giving testimony on the news each night. So terribly sad for them -- and for those who killed themselves due to these horrific actions.

As multipara often said here, "Jesus wept".

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

Missed the Hostly warning - only read the headlines.

[Projectile]

There aren't enough millstones.

Huia

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

I made the mistake of opening this link in a public place. Had to hold back tears. This is awful. I am so angry at these child rapists, and the fact that those like Peter Rushton and Hatley Gray were never punished for their horrific crimes. It is a cliche, but I have just no words. So fucking heartbreaking.

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

At least George Parker's grey head did not go down to the grave in peace.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Missed the Hostly warning - only read the headlines.

There aren't enough millstones.

Huia

Apologies. I've now moved the host edit to the start of the OP, not the end. Hopefully people will catch it.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Am not going to check out the links, but I get the drift.

A couple of things that might useful for both victims/survivors and those who want to help them:

--The book "Survivor Prayers", by Rev. Catherine Foote, regarding survivors of childhood sexual abuse. About pain; being angry with God; coping; and reframing your relationship with God--IF that's something you want to do. Also has a section on abuse by clergy. CF is a survivor herself, and a cool lady. I met her, a long time ago.

--Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests They've been a leader in dealing with clergy abuse in the US. I don't know if they have branches in other countries; but they could probably point you toward some. And there's all sorts of info on their site.

--To abusers: Please get help--right away! You're not responsible for being sick, *but* you are responsible for getting help. Even if the people around you aren't taking your illness seriously.

--To people who are closing their eyes; knowingly turning away; or (especially) clergy and administrators who enable, cover up, move abusers around, refuse to call the police, and tell kids and others to keep quiet:

Get your heads out of your asses, and get your heads and hearts on straight! The abusers are sick. What's your excuse?

--To the enabling clergy and administrators: Millstone. Neck. Repent. Tell the truth. Report the truth to the police and child welfare. Now. No excuses.

[Votive]

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
to so trivialize the living hell of the victims is satanic to the max (them, not you)

I believe that in a real and true sense, such people worshipped Molech.

They 'put their sons and daughters to the flame', literally engaging in child sacrifice to protect themselves and the power they served.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I could only manage to read s short way, nausea, rage a

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

--To abusers: Please get help--right away! You're not responsible for being sick, *but* you are responsible for getting help. Even if the people around you aren't taking your illness seriously.

The abusers here deserve every medieval torture ever devised or imagined. They deserve no help, no rehabilitation, only pain, more pain with respites long enough they do not become inured to the pain.

quote:

--To people who are closing their eyes; knowingly turning away; or (especially) clergy and administrators who enable, cover up, move abusers around, refuse to call the police, and tell kids and others to keep quiet:

They deserve the same.

Disagree if you wish, I'm not coming back to this thread. Shouldn't have read the fucking links Off to a dark corner for a while

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

About the only good thing about this story is that most of the abusers are dead and most of the senior clergy involved are apparently senile.

I still can't quite get over how messed up the whole thing was - not just that people were doing this stuff, but that the church structure seemed to reward them for doing it.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I didn't mean to read the links, but I have, the first one.
Words fail.
But I have a query in my mind. How is it that these creatures found each other, back in the days before the internet? Were they all the result of initiation by preceding predators, and formed gangs that way?
And how can it be stopped from happening in the future?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

[Disappointed]

What an awful bloody mess, sadly not unique to Oz.

I know this is Hell, but [Votive]

for the survivors.

IJ

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I haven't read the links. From what others are saying it may well remove the last remaining shred of commitment I have for the institution that is the church.

Hypocrisy doesn't even get anywhere near close where this kind of abomination is concerned.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I still can't quite get over how messed up the whole thing was - not just that people were doing this stuff, but that the church structure seemed to reward them for doing it.

And the 'pillars of the community' who are actively advocating for the abusers to this day.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Let us never suggest that such deliberate evil acts by persons who planned them, carried them out, covered them, manipulated others, and all the rest, are a result of any form of mental health or other disorder.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I haven't read the links. From what others are saying it may well remove the last remaining shred of commitment I have for the institution that is the church.

Hypocrisy doesn't even get anywhere near close where this kind of abomination is concerned.

Exactly. And for that I feel so fucking sad.

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
But I have a query in my mind. How is it that these creatures found each other, back in the days before the internet? Were they all the result of initiation by preceding predators, and formed gangs that way?

Interesting questions... I wonder that too... How do you know who to go up to and say, "Are you like me?"

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And how can it be stopped from happening in the future?

What makes me [Mad]

is it probably can't. Whenever you have sick indviduals with power complexes there is a risk the innocent suffer. I suppose only processes can be put in place to try and stop it as well as making kids informed of proper an improper behaviour [perhaps well before we might think of them as sexual beings]. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

[ 16. May 2017, 22:17: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

Well said, Golden Key, as so often in the past. [Overused]

Such action is the only hope.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Thanks, DK. That's all I can see to fix it.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

lilBuddha (just in case you glance at the thread)--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I could only manage to read s short way, nausea, rage a

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

--To abusers: Please get help--right away! You're not responsible for being sick, *but* you are responsible for getting help. Even if the people around you aren't taking your illness seriously.
The abusers here deserve every medieval torture ever devised or imagined. They deserve no help, no rehabilitation, only pain, more pain with respites long enough they do not become inured to the pain.

quote:

--To people who are closing their eyes; knowingly turning away; or (especially) clergy and administrators who enable, cover up, move abusers around, refuse to call the police, and tell kids and others to keep quiet:
They deserve the same.

Disagree if you wish, I'm not coming back to this thread. Shouldn't have read the fucking links Off to a dark corner for a while

Just to be clear:

I have similar rage. I'm not saying that anybody should forgive anyone. In fact, *trying* to forgive can be damaging, unless the person who was hurt deeply feels that they've got to find some way to let go, a little bit, for *their own* good. NOT that they have to make nice with the offender. And DEFINITELY NOT that the person hurt puts themself and/or their kids in danger.

OTOH, IME and observation, rage can be toxic if that's basically where you (gen.) live and imagine for long periods of time. It can drown you.

It's taken me many years and lots of hard work to get to where I am now. **For me** (not saying anyone else should do it), it's involved therapy; spiritual exploration; facing some really nasty theology about God, and why things happen, and who's responsible, and who gets punished, and would eternal punishment make anything better; agreeing with universalism (everyone saved and healed and Home); a lot of reading, and thinking, and making mistakes, and trying to figure things out; and hashing out how (for me) it can make some sense.

It might be called "GK's Unified Field Theory"; or "GK's Answer To Life, The Universe, And Everything", abbreviated as "GK's 42". (Not being flip about abuse; but just a little bit flip about my self and process. [Biased]

)

IME, "forgiveness" is most likely to happen after a lot of work to get some perspective on the offender; feeling a tiny bit freer, because of that; and taking a new, tiny step in my life--because the person isn't holding me back as much.

IME and AIUI, people can absolutely be monsters in other people's lives--but they are still human. (I still struggle with that.) So if everyone is to be saved and made whole, that includes monster-humans, too.

Plus some sexual abusers can and do get well, with help. Others can, with help, get a little bit better. There isn't yet a treatment that will fix everyone. But it needs to be found.

If I believe in anything, in the sense of choosing where to stand, it's that everyone and everything has to ultimately be healed, and safe, and well, and Home.

Not in a "There, there, what you did doesn't matter" sense. But hard work and healing.

FWIW. YMMV.

[ 17. May 2017, 09:41: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, that was a tough read. I'd like to say nothing surprises me any more, but...

I'm also going to tack on a reader advisory to Zappa's OP. I think that wise.

Took the liberty of making the reader advisory more eye catching.

[Votive]

seems inadequate, but it's the best I have.

Tubbs

[ 17. May 2017, 11:21: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

But I have a query in my mind. How is it that these creatures found each other, back in the days before the internet?

I assume in a time when such things weren't taken seriously (on which note see the articles), they would hint at such things until they found someone else who responded accordingly.

quote:

Were they all the result of initiation by preceding predators, and formed gangs that way?

I'd be careful with this line of reasoning; I believe the current thinking is that the idea that 'the abused then go on to become abusers' is marginal at best as a cause.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I would be careful - but there was evidence that some of the perpetrators had been abused themselves, so I was using what was in the published material. I would never go in the other direction. And it would be one way of forming a group. Dropping hints would have to be very carefully done, though. And have the expectation of a response at times.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

Were they all the result of initiation by preceding predators, and formed gangs that way?
I'd be careful with this line of reasoning; I believe the current thinking is that the idea that 'the abused then go on to become abusers' is marginal at best as a cause.

What can't, in any way be excused, is that for decades, if not centuries, the pleas of the young have been dismissed by those in authority. Even when they know that abuse has taken place, they do no than send them on holiday or move them on.

Then again, is it possible that "covering up" has become so much part of the fabric of churches? If it has, then churches have probably served whatever purpose they ever had.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Dropping hints would have to be very carefully done, though. And have the expectation of a response at times.

I was going on the article - where it appeared that those prominent in the community who supported the priests minimized the impacts by adopting euphemistic descriptions, which I assumed could also function as a kind of hint you dropped.

Besides, in an era where such things were excused as 'locker room talk' they presumably weren't that careful.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Then again, is it possible that "covering up" has become so much part of the fabric of churches? If it has, then churches have probably served whatever purpose they ever had.

I suspect the church became a 'Power' (in the Walter Wink sense) that they served above all things - literally going so far as to sacrifice the lives of other human beings in order to preserve it and the particular community for which it was foundational.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I suspect the church became a 'Power' (in the Walter Wink sense) that they served above all things - literally going so far as to sacrifice the lives of other human beings in order to preserve it and the particular community for which it was foundational.

I'm not sure the church so much became a power as was so enameled with those with power within the structure that they were more-or-less untouchable and unaccountable.

I find it very hard to believe that this stuff was going on in public and that everyone knew about it. I could be wrong, but it reads to me that there were men in powerful positions who everyone else had to kowtow to, and beneath them a bunch of abusers who (for whatever reason) had their ear and their protection. And it wasn't just within the church either, these men were supported by other powerful people at the edge or outside the church.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

I find it very hard to believe that this stuff was going on in public and that everyone knew about it.

I don't think 'everybody' knew about it in the sense you mean, but certainly a lot of people did, look at the examples in that article; one of the people in power effectively operated as a lawyer to the church and was in the position to know the scale of the problem, who then down-played it via euphemisms, some of the other choir-boys knew, presumably more parents would have raised concerns with their priests and so on.

The same pattern is seen elsewhere; there was a case in America where it was clear that some parents (specifically mothers because of the context in which the allegations eventually came out) in the church concerned knew something was off and went out of their way to keep their children out of harms way, while exercising less than due diligence over children who were perhaps more vulnerable.

In each case, it was known by the PTB, it was an open secret among certain circles in the church concerned, who were either kept cowed by the examples of other people who had attempted to report such things and been destroyed, or were keeping silent for complex reasons of their own. In some cases it it seemed to amount to almost wilful ignorance.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

When I first moved to Melbourne, as a very innocent young man in 1982, I heard rumours that there were paedophile networks operating in the churches and police. I simply couldn't believe it - priests were caring and compassionate human beings, and the police where tough individuals not given to hurting children. And so my myopia stayed for years, many years, until I interviewed a victim/survivor of abuse a decade and a half later. But even that I saw as an exception to the rule (and there were some peculiarities about the case, not least that it was heterosexual hebephilia, rather than homosexual paedo/hebephilia), until the screams grew louder, and the Royal Commissions were called ... [Tear]

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

And there is no end to the tendrils of this. How safe those in power must have felt when the rings of the abusers included police, the judiciary, the teachers and the priests. How much they must have enjoyed poor parents working their tails off to afford private education in the mistaken belief it would better the lives of their children - the very children that were preyed upon mercilessly by these sadistic bastards.

Now stories are coming out about similar circles of abuse and sextortion within government circles. May all things hidden be revealed. It's a great prayer. And a dangerous one. Because then the evil exposed and the victims of it need to be appropriately dealt with. I hope the world is changed because of it.

Sadly it makes many women immediately suspicious of ANY male who loves working with kids. Sick, sad world.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I may have dismissed a thread but what is the Australian reaction to the charges against Cardinal Pell? I haven't seen much discussion but it seems to have moved past the point where outraged denial is sufficient defense.

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

The charges against Pell are awful. My hope in that regard is that he returns to face them. Down under, there is a name for the practice of claiming to be too ill to return home and face the music - Christopher Skasing it, named for the corrupt tycoon eho made a fortune in the eighties and then buggered off to Majorca, claiming his illness made it impossible to risk air travel home. His infamy lived in legend, and the idea that some kind of covert operation should be organised to get him back even spawned a film.
Pell has already tried that defence, so he has form.
Returning to the horrific story this thread is about, it seems now that the Diocese of Perth is to be held liable for Archbishop Roger Herft's very substantial legal fees. Which seems a further injustice, given this very sad and awful story took place in another Diocese entirely.

[ 04. July 2017, 03:30: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

from the linked story;

quote:
Cardinal Pell will return to Australia, as soon as possible, to clear his name following advice and approval by his doctors who will also advise on his travel arrangements,” the statement said, adding, “He said he is looking forward to his day in court and will defend the charges vigorously.

I suspect there's no comfortable place in Rome for him now.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Re Cardinal Pell:

--Today, NPR interviewed Fr. Thomas Doyle:

"Cardinal To Defend Himself Against Sexual Abuse Charges In Australia" (NPR--audio and transcript; both short)

Fr. Doyle is an expert witness on abuse, and writes for National Catholic Reporter.

--Yesterday, NPR interviewed survivor and activist Marie Collins, who just quit the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors. Pell was one of the topics.

"In Fighting Abuse By Members Of Catholic Church Clergy, Victim Sees Resistance To Change" (NPR--audio and transcript; both short).

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
from the linked story;
quote:
Cardinal Pell will return to Australia, as soon as possible, to clear his name following advice and approval by his doctors who will also advise on his travel arrangements,” the statement said, adding, “He said he is looking forward to his day in court and will defend the charges vigorously.
I suspect there's no comfortable place in Rome for him now.

Yes, thank you, I know what he said. It will make it seem that much more sincere if he then cannot travel on doctor's orders. Because he wanted to so very much ...

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I may have dismissed a thread but what is the Australian reaction to the charges against Cardinal Pell? I haven't seen much discussion but it seems to have moved past the point where outraged denial is sufficient defense.

Some news sites have him hung, drawn and quartered already. Most people I've spoken to are saddened that it's reached this stage, but have reserved judgment.

Like everyone else, I have no idea what the evidence is like nor what the charges are. My memory is that there were civil proceedings against him 15 or so years ago, in which the Plaintiff sought damages for sexual assault. They were dismissed as Pell had an ironclad alibi.

I am not sure of criminal procedures in Victoria, where he is charged. In NSW, he could make an application to be tried by a judge alone, ie without a jury.

Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :

This thread is one of the reasons I have given up on the Catholic Church. I grew tired of opening the news every morning, dreading that I would once again have to defend the indefensible. That I would have to put up with a Pope who is all talk and no action who, more and more, is sinking into the clutches of a Vatican which lives in an alternate world. Not to mention a local diocese ridden with the same issues in miniature, sunk in bigotry and fear of what they do not understand, both the religious and the laity.

I was deeply hurt when I made that decision, but as time goes on, it feels like a weight lifted off my shoulders.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Sorry to hear it, Uncle Pete, but at least the weight, as you say, has been somewhat lifted. I don't suppose you're the only erstwhile RC who feels the same.

IJ

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

I made the mistake of reading the first link despite the Hostly warning: "Ohfuckohfuckohfuckohfuckohfuck!!"

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

I am not sure of criminal procedures in Victoria, where he is charged. In NSW, he could make an application to be tried by a judge alone, ie without a jury.

Which is relevant, because ...

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

I am not sure of criminal procedures in Victoria, where he is charged. In NSW, he could make an application to be tried by a judge alone, ie without a jury.
Which is relevant, because ...

Because he will be tried in Victoria not NSW. He might well conclude after all the publicity that he would receive a fairer trial by judge alone than one before a jury.

[ 05. July 2017, 03:27: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

Right. Because judges are always fair.
Anyway, I was wrong - Cardinal Pell returned home after all, to his credit. I guess we will see what happens.
Returning to this thread, the Bishop of Newcastle who did very little to prevent or halt these abuses has finally finished his term as Archbishop of Perth last Friday.

[ 10. July 2017, 02:30: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

My experience in 45 or so years of practice is that while some judges can be absolute bastards to appear before, there have been very few cases where the result could reasonably be thought to have been unfair.

A judge is required to give reasons, exposing how the conclusion was reached; that by itself militates in favour of a fair decision. An important factor in the Pell prosecution is that a judge will put aside the publicity about Pell in reaching a decision, and in particular the Tim Minchin bit of silliness.

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

That's nice. I have experience of appearing before one judge, and he was both a moron (which goes without saying - he was a lawyer, after all), and very unfair. That was a family court case.
And I loved the Tim Minchin "bit of silliness." For those of you who have not had the pleasure, you're welcome.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
That's nice. I have experience of appearing before one judge, and he was both a moron (which goes without saying - he was a lawyer, after all), and very unfair. That was a family court case.
And I loved the Tim Minchin "bit of silliness." For those of you who have not had the pleasure, you're welcome.

And I assume that you did not achieve the outcome you were looking for.

Minchin was silly - it was very childish. More importantly, Pell may make an application for the criminal proceedings to be stayed on a range of bases, the time delay being one. He may also refer to such things as this along with newspaper articles and headlines, arguing that any jury trial would be compromised.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

All of which may well cause folk to say 'Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.'

IOW, would it not be best (if he continues to maintain his innocence) to just get on with it as fast as possible?

IJ

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

Yes, despite Gee's idiotic crystal ball gazing, it looks like Pell is actually coming back to try and clear his name. Not engage in law games. But I suppose time will tell.
Minchin's wonderful song was actually about Pell refusing to return to Australia to answer questions about abusers he knew about (not abuse he himself committed - perhaps even a judge could understand that distinction). It expressed the outrage many of us felt at Pell's actions at the time.

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
That's nice. I have experience of appearing before one judge, and he was both a moron (which goes without saying - he was a lawyer, after all), and very unfair. That was a family court case.
And I loved the Tim Minchin "bit of silliness." For those of you who have not had the pleasure, you're welcome.
And I assume that you did not achieve the outcome you were looking for.

And I assume you have a point. Although based on previous interactions, all this demonstrates is my intrinsic (if frequently disappointed) sanguinness.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
it looks like Pell is actually coming back to try and clear his name. Not engage in law games. But I suppose time will tell.

Pell does not have to prove anything, nor to "clear his name". The prosecution has to prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
All of which may well cause folk to say 'Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.'

IOW, would it not be best (if he continues to maintain his innocence) to just get on with it as fast as possible?

IJ

I have no idea of court delays in the state where he'll be charged. In NSW, times of more than a year after committal for trial are commonly quoted. That by itself causes injustice to an accused and the victims. To expedite any trial for Pell would cause a delay to others already in the system, and that should be avoided. Of course, we could always do away with criminal trials and leave it all to songwriters.

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
it looks like Pell is actually coming back to try and clear his name. Not engage in law games. But I suppose time will tell.
Pell does not have to prove anything, nor to "clear his name". The prosecution has to prove his guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Wait, are you a lawyer? It's been, like, twenty minutes since you mentioned it.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

I'm a lawyer and it's been more than 20 minutes since I last mentioned it.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

How many lawyers does it take to rip off someone's gonads?

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

Lawyers don't need extra gonads.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Or indeed any gonads. I functioned perfectly well as a lawyer despite lacking male genitalia.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Or indeed any gonads. I functioned perfectly well as a lawyer despite lacking male genitalia.

Girls have gonads, too ;-) You'd have to rip them out, rather than off, and it's more of a challenge.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Oh, Cthulu. Digressions, I think. [Disappointed]

Posted by Cthulhu (# 16186) on :

Digressions can be delicious.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Lawyers don't need extra gonads.

To the contrary, I fully plan on enjoying a nice, heaping plate of calf fries even after this whole "bar" thing is done. I could always use a few extra, if you wouldn't mind. Oh, and another lemon, please.

Many thanks.

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

Back to the OP, it is notable that a solicitor, Keith Allen, was an active agent of the abuse cover up, and actually coined the callous phrase that gave The Monthly article its title.
The unlamented Roger Herft has finally fucked off to retirement, having cost the Diocese of Perth over half a million in legal fees. He did nothing to prevent the abuses in Newcastle, and perhaps a gesture of actual contrition may have been to resign and bear his own legal costs himself as a private citizen.
But whatever - the lawyers got paid.

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

Credit where credit is due - I just saw this story, which appeared in Oz on our 4 Corners investigative journalism program.
Now, my comments on this thread about lawyers, apart from being a distraction from the main issue, were clearly unfair. In this case, it was prosecuting lawyers who did all the heavy lifting of exposing abuse in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. The DA took the extraordinary - and I think, highly moral - step of publishing the names of priest sexual offenders who could not be prosecuted due to the statute of limitations.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I agree with the credit given, DK. There have been some wonderful warriors for justice in these torrid tale. The tragedy is that few of them, Newcastle's +Newcastle excepted (and a few others), have been acting from within the alleged Body of Christ. [Tear]

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