Thread: Amazonification Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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I love Amazon: there I've said it. I consider myself a careful consumer, considering what I buy and weighing the best options - not just on price but on various other metrics. I appreciate the enormous selection of goods available from them and that they can send them out almost instantly.
But there is a downside of course. For one thing there are the stories of poor business practices including the van driver I know who works for Amazon on uncertain wages because it is a zero hours contract.
The counter is that it is really really hard to find a "good" courier company which doesn't screw delivery drivers with crappy conditions and that other kinds of stores do not necessarily pay their staff eg in warehouses much better than Amazon. I dunno. What can you do?
Of course there is also the whole issue of Amazon dodging tax.
--
There is another issue, which feels obvious now I know about it.
I've been collecting something for years and have now decided that the whole collection has got to go because I'm out of space. So I've put it onto Ebay.
They're not particularly expensive or unusual items so I've priced them to meet market expectations. I need to get rid of them.
The problem is that once one accounts for ebay fees, paypal fees and postage fees (using the nearest - but also the one of the worst couriers, sigh) it is really hard to sell anything.
My guess is that people are so used to buying things from Amazon that we've lost any understanding of how much (in this example) postage and packing really costs - to the extent that people regularly ask me to send them things at below the cost of the cheapest possible postage, never mind the fees or even the value of the item.
It would have been cheaper to box all my junk up and take it to a carboot to sell for £1 each or even just to have taken it all to the tip.
I know, I know, it's my own fault. I'm part of a consumer culture that in the end is eating itself. But it has really got to some weird place when the ubiquitous corporation selling all kinds of (mainly new) stuff is ultimately both keeping other couriers - working for other people or brands - in poverty and pushing down prices for other goods to such an extent that they can only be sold at a loss on a completely different buying platform.
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
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Do Amazon run courier companies over there? Or does the van driver also work for Amazon?
Tough questions. I don't have the answer. I am a minimalist at heart so I don't have much stuff, but companies such as Amazon are a damned if you do and damned if you don't it seems. I argued about unfair practices with someone who could only respond how good their Prime service was. And how much stuff they can buy!
We all want to pay the lowest price. And as long as those involved are out of sight, be it in an Amazon warehouse or making Nikes in an Asian factory, I do not see it changing. Out of sight, out of mind.
Ian,
who admittedly has much time for Naomi Klein, but fails to match her standard.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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Everything I've ever bought from Amazon has been delivered by the Royal Mail postman. Though, only small stuff like books or DVDs - so I can't comment on how they deliver large items. I always assumed they just paid a courier to deliver it, rather than have their own dedicated delivery vans.
Though they may have their own trucks for moving stuff to their warehouses.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Do Amazon run courier companies over there? Or does the van driver also work for Amazon?
They have their own delivery drivers, but it is sub-contracted (actually sub-sub-contracted so that individual drivers are supposed to be self-employed even though they're working for someone who isn't actually Amazon...)
quote:
Tough questions. I don't have the answer. I am a minimalist at heart so I don't have much stuff, but companies such as Amazon are a damned if you do and damned if you don't it seems. I argued about unfair practices with someone who could only respond how good their Prime service was. And how much stuff they can buy!
We all want to pay the lowest price. And as long as those involved are out of sight, be it in an Amazon warehouse or making Nikes in an Asian factory, I do not see it changing. Out of sight, out of mind.
For me it isn't often about price. It is very often that I can't actually get whatever-it-is anywhere else.
quote:
Ian,
who admittedly has much time for Naomi Klein, but fails to match her standard.
Ditto. I don't know how we're supposed to live, but I'm sure this isn't it.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Everything I've ever bought from Amazon has been delivered by the Royal Mail postman. Though, only small stuff like books or DVDs - so I can't comment on how they deliver large items. I always assumed they just paid a courier to deliver it, rather than have their own dedicated delivery vans.
Though they may have their own trucks for moving stuff to their warehouses.
They deliver stuff in different ways depending on the size of the item - and possibly your location.
They absolutely have a team here in south wales of white van drivers who only deliver for Amazon. They're working for some delivery company you've never heard of.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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Amazon flex is the branding of their own delivery drivers. But in fact it isn't done directly by Amazon.
Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on
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I guess I am much blessed, in that Amazon does NOT post things for free to my country. In fact, they charge so much for postage that I never buy anything from Amazon if I can possibly get it from anywhere else at all. Though the problem of contracting or franchisee courier drivers being run into the ground by unrealistically low rates is a live one here, as well.
I, too, squirm about it sometimes, as I buy more and more stuff online (partly because we moved to a provincial centre a couple of years ago and there just isn't much in the way of options shopping-wise here). I must also confess to buying upward of 95% of my books - and our household is a book-heavy one - from The Book Depository, who DO post here for free, and in addition, can provide books for about 60% of what they'd cost here - if I could actually get them at all, that is. In doing so, I'm directly screwing NZ booksellers, who have no option but to charge 15% GST on books, whereas The Book Depository gets to deal exclusively in VAT-free goods, as I understand it.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I, too, squirm about it sometimes, as I buy more and more stuff online (partly because we moved to a provincial centre a couple of years ago and there just isn't much in the way of options shopping-wise here). I must also confess to buying upward of 95% of my books - and our household is a book-heavy one - from The Book Depository, who DO post here for free, and in addition, can provide books for about 60% of what they'd cost here - if I could actually get them at all, that is. In doing so, I'm directly screwing NZ booksellers, who have no option but to charge 15% GST on books, whereas The Book Depository gets to deal exclusively in VAT-free goods, as I understand it.
And the Book Depository is Amazon - they acquired it in 2011.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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We have a small cottage industry and sell exclusively on Facebook. It costs nothing unless I want to 'boost' a post, which I do about once a month for £8.
We get about seven orders a week, which is enough for the craftsman to keep up with.
(I'm the design, marketing, admin, postage and packing department)
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
We have a small cottage industry and sell exclusively on Facebook. It costs nothing unless I want to 'boost' a post, which I do about once a month for £8.
We get about seven orders a week, which is enough for the craftsman to keep up with.
(I'm the design, marketing, admin, postage and packing department)
Mm yes, I think to be effective on ebay, etsy, facebook etc one has to have both something that is unusual and something that customers are prepared to pay a decent price for. I suppose I've just discovered that items in my collection aren't sufficiently unusual to attract a premium enough to sell them at anything other than a loss.
[ 25. August 2017, 08:56: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And the Book Depository is Amazon - they acquired it in 2011.
Oh. Had no idea. I am marked with the sign of the beast too. Across the ditch from anoesis, when a bookseller here tells me it's $70 and I see it on BD for $30, I give in. I'm trying to stick to eBooks now, but God only knows who owns them.
Amazon is coming here. It will shake things up. I worry what comes after when they are dominant and powerful. Definitely in it for the long game.
Sad about your collection mr cheesy; meant to say that above. Very tough to compete, especially when low prices and free postage are the norm.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Sad about your collection mr cheesy; meant to say that above. Very tough to compete, especially when low prices and free postage are the norm.
Thanks! It's not the end of the world, but I guess just brought home to me how hard it must be for anyone trying to make an income from one of these selling platforms.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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This is one of the problems about tying to "boycott Amazon". YOu use them, in some form, on a daily basis.
They have learnt brilliantly well the benefits of providing platforms. So they provide a platform for buying and selling books. They expand it to provide a platform for selling everything, and (often if not always) not dealing with the physical items themselves. THey provide warehouse facilities, and distribution facilities.
These days, they provide cloud services as well. So lots of the other sites you use are AMazon hosted. WHy do they do this? Because they needed ot expand their data warehouses, and realised that they had a model they could sell.
They have learned - incredibly quickly - that they can make a stack of money from providing theis service level. The fact that the main item they use this for is books is irrelevant, except that they were a perfect e-commerce item - one of the first things that were easy to sell online (I remember The Internet Bookshop - soon taken over by Amazon).
So yes, I hate Amazon, I htink htey should pay taxes. But I can;t avoid them.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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(relevant!)
TV here is running an ad for a new thriller by James Patterson, who does the ad himself. The book is "The Store", about a store that knows everything about us...
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
I haven't read his books, though I might have seen movies based on them. But this might be worth a try.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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Amazon drivers - 'self-employed' under something called Amazon Flex - get a pre-ordained route to deliver. They have to travel to the depot, find their parcels (not done for them) then get on the road. Average working day without taking into account time to get from home to depot and depot to home at each end of the day comes in at around 10-11 hours in more urban areas and over 12 in rural areas.
The company's attitude towards things like tax, employment rights, etc, is well-documented.
I don't use Amazon and neither do my children.
Posted by Egeria (# 4517) on
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I hate them. For their abuse of employees and their aspirations to monopoly and their cheating on taxes and their smirking megalomaniac boss.
And I do boycott Amazon. If I want to order a book, I may check their web site first, but I'll order the book through a local bookstore or directly from a publisher. I can order clothes from other places. I can order household stuff from a hardware firm. Nobody "needs" to use Amazon.
They're one of the firms I'd like to see disappear from the face of the earth.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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NYT: Does Amazon Pay Taxes? Contrary to Trump Tweet, Yes.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
NYT: Does Amazon Pay Taxes? Contrary to Trump Tweet, Yes.
But not much in Europe
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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I am deeply ambivalent about Amazon. They're one of the few places that won't make me pay through the nose for delivery (honourable mentions to CPC, Screwfix & Ethical Superstore, however), and I know that the couriers they use locally won't be getting ripped off. Amazon and eBay are a lifeline out here for everything from bike parts to electronics to bedding. The tax and wages issues bother me, but I blame the governments that let them do it more than the companies.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
In fact, they charge so much for postage that I never buy anything from Amazon if I can possibly get it from anywhere else at all.
That's been my experience with Amazon also. I much prefer ebay, where merchants often ship for free (i.e., the cost of shipping is included in the price of the item, which is already reasonable). If I am selling something on ebay, I always offer free shipping.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Nobody "needs" to use Amazon.
This is ableist. They are a godsend to people with mobility impairments, as well as the blind. And for people who live out at the end of a 100 mile dirt road in East Bumfuck, Arkansas, they may be many times cheaper in time and gas than driving to the nearest place to get a book not carried by Walmart.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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But they ain't the only on-line merchant that computers at the butt end of Wastewater Ditch, East Bumfuck, AR, can browse to.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
But they ain't the only on-line merchant that computers at the butt end of Wastewater Ditch, East Bumfuck, AR, can browse to.
I'm sure you can think of one or two products that few other merchants can supply, a set of products that would require two or three other merchants, and you can imagine what a godsend cheap or free shipping would be to someone who does a lot of ordering online.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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Amazon, it seems to me, did a great thing for online shopping. They showed people "look - it should just be this easy" and everyone else had to raise their game, rather than have a website that worked like their traditional piece of junk paper catalogue.
I've bought a bunch of stuff from amazon - it just works, the stuff shows up, and amazon are pretty good about replacing things that don't work.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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I live in Seattle. I'm currently mobility impaired and Amazon provides groceries, books, and a long list of other things. I don't like being in a walled garden, and it's beginning to look that way.
This week the newspaper pointed out that Amazon office space in Seattle is the largest of any company in the country. They currently fill 20% of the office space and attracted new workers to the city in droves who will pay the high rents.
I do wonder if it could collapse when their stockholders get tired of taking losses for increased market share.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I know that the couriers they use locally won't be getting ripped off.
Not sure how you can know this - many of the drivers are self-employed and get variable amounts of work on a week-by-week basis.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
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Amazon is that thing which, according to capitalists, the thing that shouldn't happen: a private company heading towards a monopoly. It also relies on the central myth of late capitalism: that money insulates consumers from the consequences of their consumption.
Amazon is the delivery arm of the digital complex that is essentially restructuring global society to its own advantage. Google is its information arm; Facebook and Twitter its social arm, and Amazon takes its place. Is anyone going tell me that only the public sector fosters monopolies? The human consequence of this movement is isolation, in particular lack of mutual physical presence, which is essential for human happiness. We are rebuilding our society in a way that ensures our own misery because a few billionaires have managed to trigger the general mania for novelty without triggering any kind of suspicion. How this is working I don't know, but it is, and it's doing the same for the human psyche as climate change is doing for the natural environment.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Amazon is that thing which, according to capitalists, the thing that shouldn't happen: a private company heading towards a monopoly. It also relies on the central myth of late capitalism: that money insulates consumers from the consequences of their consumption.
Amazon is the delivery arm of the digital complex that is essentially restructuring global society to its own advantage. Google is its information arm; Facebook and Twitter its social arm, and Amazon takes its place.
In fact it is even worse than that: much of the internet is run from Amazon servers.
quote:
Is anyone going tell me that only the public sector fosters monopolies? The human consequence of this movement is isolation, in particular lack of mutual physical presence, which is essential for human happiness. We are rebuilding our society in a way that ensures our own misery because a few billionaires have managed to trigger the general mania for novelty without triggering any kind of suspicion. How this is working I don't know, but it is, and it's doing the same for the human psyche as climate change is doing for the natural environment.
I don't know, there are one or two interesting things about Amazon. First is that it isn't actually very profitable compared to the turnoever. Investors have had to wait a long old time for it to get to profitability.
Second amongst various bad practices, it has also developed market dominance with cleverness and ruthless efficiencies.
Will it become a monopoly? Maybe. I think that's quite a way off yet and there are other ruthless competitors it will have to beat off first.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I know that the couriers they use locally won't be getting ripped off.
Not sure how you can know this - many of the drivers are self-employed and get variable amounts of work on a week-by-week basis.
Because here they subcontract to the local firms that do all the deliveries to the island or send via Royal Mail. The local firms pay reasonably well (full time, waged work mark you) and are clearly not short of a few quid themselves. I know arrangements are different on the mainland.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Because here they subcontract to the local firms that do all the deliveries to the island or send via Royal Mail. The local firms pay reasonably well (full time, waged work mark you) and are clearly not short of a few quid themselves. I know arrangements are different on the mainland.
OK, sorry I'd forgotten where you were geographically.
Of course, Highlands and Islands often costs more in courier prices (not sure what happens with Amazon as I've never had opportunity to need something delivered there).
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Amazon is that thing which, according to capitalists, the thing that shouldn't happen: a private company heading towards a monopoly.
Really? I thought even capitalists knew about barriers to entry and associated matters that lead to monopolies. Adam Smith was well aware of the need for regulation for markets to function. I thought the issue with anti-state deregulators was that they knew about the tendency for monopolies but just didn't give a shit, or pretended that it's only a monopoly if there is literally no other choice.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Of course, Highlands and Islands often costs more in courier prices (not sure what happens with Amazon as I've never had opportunity to need something delivered there).
If it's supplied by Amazon we generally get it on the same terms as the mainland (with a longer lead time, obviously). With other sellers going through Amazon it's a bit hit and miss.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The human consequence of this movement is isolation, in particular lack of mutual physical presence, which is essential for human happiness.
What a load of horseshit.
I don't get anything out of the mutual human presence involved in shopping for stuff. Time saved by ordering stuff online and having it delivered is time I can spend with people I have real relationships with instead of random strangers.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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Also chances are that any individual shopkeeper selling stuff you could get on Amazon is using couriers working in the same-or-worse conditions, is selling products produced in the same factories - if he has a physical shop is either (a) a larger shop owned by a multinational which isn't really any great improvement on Amazon or (b) is a small shop, likely being run at - or near - a loss.
The fact is that the retail price is only tangentially related to the quality of the product, the price it cost to produce and the pay throughout the supply chain. There is no guarantee that buying a book from a neighbourhood store is any better than from Amazon (and if the shop is only making little or no profit due to the current retail environment, he's paying little or no tax either).
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The human consequence of this movement is isolation, in particular lack of mutual physical presence, which is essential for human happiness.
What a load of horseshit.
I don't get anything out of the mutual human presence involved in shopping for stuff. Time saved by ordering stuff online and having it delivered is time I can spend with people I have real relationships with instead of random strangers.
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. It's not horseshit.
Fuck off and lecture someone else on their own experience of isolation.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The human consequence of this movement is isolation, in particular lack of mutual physical presence, which is essential for human happiness.
What a load of horseshit.
I don't get anything out of the mutual human presence involved in shopping for stuff. Time saved by ordering stuff online and having it delivered is time I can spend with people I have real relationships with instead of random strangers.
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. It's not horseshit.
Fuck off and lecture someone else on their own experience of isolation.
To be a little more nuanced, I hold no particular brief for the quality of relationships. But if one is in an area and on foot, one sees the same people repeatedly over time, and a kind of connection, or at least mutual recognition, builds up. It's slim pickings, but it's not nothing, and it is infinitely better than sitting in one's four walls with no form of recognition other than one's own reflection.
It is also vital to function in public space and not just in private. Again, this is not helped by the online experience.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
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CBC and several other outlets have personal data as the nost valuable commodity in the world. You buy something, they cookie-track you, you post on Facebook, they track that. They advert to you. You buy something in a store with your ctedit or debit card or cellphone app. They connect that too. They know everything about you. Amazon is merely another brick in the wall. They have the ability to price everything to screw over everyone else. And because they know us thoroughly we say yes when they ask to slit our throats.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. It's not horseshit.
It's clearly horseshit to Ruth. I'm happy you like buying the things that the shops you can walk to stock, and enjoy seeing the same faces waiting for the bus.
Your experience and preferences are just that - yours, not universal.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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I know of retirees, people with transport or mobility issues, whose lives have been changed by Amazon. You can get them to deliver anything: kitty litter, toilet paper, groceries. You can live out in the countryside, and they still deliver to the door. You do not have to hoick the heavy sack of kitty litter up your front steps, or into the shopping cart, or into and then out of the trunk of your car. You can order books that, in the past, you could only have gotten by traveling to a big city.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I do wonder if it could collapse when their stockholders get tired of taking losses for increased market share.
Um ... losses?
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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I hate shopping with a passion and never do it. I only shop online.
But is do frequent shops, very regularly - but strictly for puppy training.
This may sound odd, but - so long as I'm not at the checkout, I'm fine.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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I have heard of a remote Inuit village in Canada where almost everyone has Amazon Prime. They get everything they need delivered free.
Moo
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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I agree with Ruth to a large extent - shops are generally designed to deliberately lead you past lots of things you don't want in order to get to the thing you do want. Supermarkets are just about bearable because you frequent them often enough to know their layout. But in general all shops are designed to confuse, distract and trigger our desires.
I'd much rather do a 5 minute shop online and then head to the park.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Supermarkets are just about bearable because you frequent them often enough to know their layout.
And they know that, so from time to time they rearrange the layout to get you to walk past things you weren't walking past previously.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The human consequence of this movement is isolation, in particular lack of mutual physical presence, which is essential for human happiness.
What a load of horseshit.
I don't get anything out of the mutual human presence involved in shopping for stuff. Time saved by ordering stuff online and having it delivered is time I can spend with people I have real relationships with instead of random strangers.
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. It's not horseshit.
Fuck off and lecture someone else on their own experience of isolation.
To be a little more nuanced, I hold no particular brief for the quality of relationships. But if one is in an area and on foot, one sees the same people repeatedly over time, and a kind of connection, or at least mutual recognition, builds up. It's slim pickings, but it's not nothing, and it is infinitely better than sitting in one's four walls with no form of recognition other than one's own reflection.
It is also vital to function in public space and not just in private. Again, this is not helped by the online experience.
First, you can fuck right off yourself, and take your pronouncements about how the world is and how people should live in it with you.
I live in an extremely walkable neighborhood, and I spend money in it as much as I can. I am quite familiar with the benefits of walking around a neighborhood, and in fact love I the fact that I see many of the same people again and again. I've met a lot of people that way and made a few friends as well.
But there's no bookstore in my neighborhood. Neither is there a furniture store. Or a computer store. Or a kitchen wares store. Or stores for any number of other things that I need or want to buy. I can drive 10 miles (25 minutes) to the nearest Ikea store, go through the whole fucking store, find the shelving unit I want, stand in line to pay for it, and drive home again, or I can order it online and have it delivered, while not wasting more than an hour on an excursion to Ikea. Guess which it's going to be.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
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I do stand up for the central element of what I have said. A city is an arena for a social model of living. At the moment, the shared part of the city is (just about) built around a variety of shops, in which people interact with each other and at least acknowledge each other as part of the same society. If you take that arena away and privatise it, where do we go to experience the society of which we are notionally part?
One thing has become clear from experience so far: hairdressers, cafes and betting shops do not a social arena make.
And OK, this will not make sense to many rural dwellers, but even in rural areas, there are social spaces, albeit ones shared with fewer people, and these are still needed to balance the tendency to isolation and anxiety.
I'm not addressing supply problems because that is not my point. My point is that the usual consumerist default of focussing exclusively on immediate personal supply issues to the exclusion of all else destroys the social branch on which one is perched. All of a sudden it withers and dies and "it wasn't my fault guv; I was just getting on being a consumer and all of a sudden all the rest just died away"
[ 27. August 2017, 08:41: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I do stand up for the central element of what I have said. A city is an arena for a social model of living. At the moment, the shared part of the city is (just about) built around a variety of shops, in which people interact with each other and at least acknowledge each other as part of the same society. If you take that arena away and privatise it, where do we go to experience the society of which we are notionally part?
Though I see your point about social space, the problem is that this is built around consumerism. The decline of that centre didn't start with Amazon, or even the earlier catalogue shopping. Out of town supermarkets and malls were also spreading consumers away from the town centre shops. If we want to recover central social spaces for our societies the solution isn't to try and hold onto consumerism centred on small geographical locations, but to find what would be a sustainable alternative to consumerism.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though I see your point about social space, the problem is that this is built around consumerism. The decline of that centre didn't start with Amazon, or even the earlier catalogue shopping. Out of town supermarkets and malls were also spreading consumers away from the town centre shops. If we want to recover central social spaces for our societies the solution isn't to try and hold onto consumerism centred on small geographical locations, but to find what would be a sustainable alternative to consumerism.
This.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
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Alan has nailed it. Today I rode public transit and drove a shared car. The drivers and passengers on the bus were friendly, but I didn't feel lonely or isolated when I switched to the car. I shopped at a small independent business and at Costco. The staff and customers at both places were equally friendly. Shopping may include pleasant human interaction, but it's not the kind of socializing I need to sustain my soul.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
...
One thing has become clear from experience so far: hairdressers ... do not a social arena make.
...
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you're not black.
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Supermarkets are just about bearable because you frequent them often enough to know their layout.
And they know that, so from time to time they rearrange the layout to get you to walk past things you weren't walking past previously.
Absolutely, but they are still preferable to - say - a toy shop.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Supermarkets are just about bearable because you frequent them often enough to know their layout.
And they know that, so from time to time they rearrange the layout to get you to walk past things you weren't walking past previously.
Absolutely, but they are still preferable to - say - a toy shop.
Your original complaint ("shops are generally designed to deliberately lead you past lots of things you don't want in order to get to the thing you do want") suggested that the problem, as you saw it, was that shops have cottoned onto the fact that if people see things that they hadn't come in for some people might by them.
I'm wondering why you think on-line retailers are better in this regard? Or, haven't you noticed the various "other people who bought this also bought that" or "we think you might be interested in ..." items that they put prominently on their sites as you browse for what you need, or proceed to checkout?
On-line or high street, shops do the same things to try and get people to part with their money. On that score, there's precious little between them to suggest one is any better or worse than the other.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Absolutely, but they are still preferable to - say - a toy shop.
You seem to be saying that there are a lot of cool things in a toy shop that you can't help buying if you walk past them, so you wish the things that you want to buy were in the front of the store.
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm wondering why you think on-line retailers are better in this regard? Or, haven't you noticed the various "other people who bought this also bought that" or "we think you might be interested in ..." items that they put prominently on their sites as you browse for what you need, or proceed to checkout?
On-line or high street, shops do the same things to try and get people to part with their money.
Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop - and so online shops still have some incentive to help you find what you actually want reasonably quickly even if they are trying to cross sell. So they invest fairly heavily in their search functions.
It probably helps that I'm rarely browsing.
quote:
You seem to be saying that there are a lot of cool things in a toy shop that you can't help buying if you walk past them, so you wish the things that you want to buy were in the front of the store.
Heh. No not at all. I just had reason recently to walk into a toy shop to get a last minute birthday present. I knew roughly what I wanted to buy - walked to the area of the store purporting to sell it - and was greated with a jumbled of boxes of different colours piled from floor to ceiling. At which point I gave it up for a bad job.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I knew roughly what I wanted to buy - walked to the area of the store purporting to sell it - and was greated with a jumbled of boxes of different colours piled from floor to ceiling. At which point I gave it up for a bad job.
Sounds like a bad toy shop. I wouldn't give up on them altogether.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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Everyone here needs to remember that Adam Smith (that one, yes) said that no private company in an open market will ever sustain a large profit margin.
So, if you think you're not paying for delivery, you're wrong. You most certainly are, and in probably far more ways than the actual cost of the item.
Despite it being one of my main trading platforms, I don't buy from them. It simply costs me, and my community, far too much.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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chris--
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I knew roughly what I wanted to buy - walked to the area of the store purporting to sell it - and was greated with a jumbled of boxes of different colours piled from floor to ceiling. At which point I gave it up for a bad job.
I wasn't there, but sometimes stores make displays like what you describe. But, if not, then yeah, it would be off-putting. YMMV.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So, if you think you're not paying for delivery, you're wrong. You most certainly are, and in probably far more ways than the actual cost of the item.
The game with "free" stuff is always to try and be the one getting subsidized rather than the one paying the subsidy. cf. Students at the all-you-can-eat buffet, or perhaps Arethosemyfeet's beautiful but remote and expensive-to-deliver-to corner.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...
We're already subsidising them, and are happy to do so, because they're part of the UK.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop
I'm trying to think of a rational basis for this claim. So far I'm coming up with a blank. But then maybe shops are using magnets and forcefields these days.
That's my first thought. Admittedly my second thought was: Ikea.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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I think it's psychological. When You take out time in your day to get to the shops - which may involve driving a car and paying for parking, getting a bus, or a walk through the rain - with the specific aim of getting a particular item then there's a psychological barrier to going home without what you went for, or at least without something.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...
I think, though, that many "mail" order companies use private delivery contractors, who charge more for the Islands.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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I don't go shopping.
I frequent shops often for puppy training and maybe buy one thing to teach the pup to wait nicely at the till.
But all my shopping is done online, even for expensive items. I bought very expensive binoculars last month, they weren't right and I sent them back and got a different pair. My husband was horrified, he'd be having a trip to the city and combing the shops trying them out. I try things at home and send them back if they are not right.
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on
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Boogie posted quote:
I don't go shopping.
Same here for the most part. I buy staples on line, paper towels and such, go to the local farmers market, where I have found my favorites and shop at a smaller family owned grocery store for other things. I have a bit of trouble walking.
It is so much easier then lugging packages from the car and into the house.with staples such as peanut butter and detergent. I find I spend less them going to a supermarket. There was a time when I could get local fresh fruits and veggies delivered to my door as well. That got to expensive but I liked it.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...
I think, though, that many "mail" order companies use private delivery contractors, who charge more for the Islands.
As I discovered on a recent book-sending frenzy, the Royal Mail's 'Small parcel' rate of £2.90 for 2kg anywhere in the country is a glorious thing.
The 'privatisation' (aka cherry picking) of mail delivery was a cost private industry placed on the consumer. We're still paying for it.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...
My daughter moved with her family from Austin, TX to a small town nearby. When she lived in Austin, it was cheaper to send things UPS. When she moved to the small town, UPS added a delivery charge which made it cheaper to use the post office.
Moo
[ 30. August 2017, 12:08: Message edited by: Moo ]
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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General post is a public good, and should therefore be one price, wherever you are in a given polity.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think it's psychological. When You take out time in your day to get to the shops - which may involve driving a car and paying for parking, getting a bus, or a walk through the rain - with the specific aim of getting a particular item then there's a psychological barrier to going home without what you went for, or at least without something.
The ease or difficulty of navigating a shop and finding what you're after varies considerably with a shop. And I think exactly the same is true of websites.
In both cases, I don't return to the ones that are hard work, make me grumpy, and where a visit often ends with me leaving without the thing I was looking for.
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth. On the contrary, a bad online shop can suck up time like a Hoover.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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Also, if it takes you hours to navigate IKEA, you're doing it wrong.
I can be in and out, with everything I need, within half an hour, and usually less.
(pro-tip - look up the codes on the website and enter the store through the tills)
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth. On the contrary, a bad online shop can suck up time like a Hoover.
You leave bad physical shops and don't come back, but you don't leave badly-designed web shops and keep going back?
If you compare apples to apples (keeping out of bad shops, whether physical or digital), I don't see how you can argue that physical shopping takes no more time than online shopping. It's inane.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop
I'm trying to think of a rational basis for this claim. So far I'm coming up with a blank. But then maybe shops are using magnets and forcefields these days.
Leaving physical store: walking multiple steps. Opening door (if it doesn't open itself). Walking through door. Closing door (if it doesn't close itself).
Leaving website: Move right hand maybe 2 or 3 inches. Press down with index finger.
Which of these is more difficult? You seriously can't tell? Good Lord, man, are you dense?
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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You can also multi-task internet shopping. Shops tend not to like you stirring supper while browsing their store, or having four tabs up to compare specs and prices on something.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Shops tend not to like you stirring supper while browsing their store...
Shops also tend not to like my coming in to shop dressed only in my underwear.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Hebrides have exactly the same postage rates as everywhere else in the country...
We're already subsidising them, and are happy to do so, because they're part of the UK.
And I, for one, am not embarrassed to say "thank you" for that. I just wish some of the entitled arses around here would recognise just how heavily subsidised life here is.
I have noticed, however, that some people advertise things for sale on eBay, claiming to send via Royal Mail, and then claim they can't post to Scottish Islands. It's quite bizarre.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Good Lord, man, are you dense?
Clearly what I said wasn't dense, because you've found ample spaces in it where you could interpolate a whole lot of fanciful suppositions.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Good Lord, man, are you dense?
Clearly what I said wasn't dense, because you've found ample spaces in it where you could interpolate a whole lot of fanciful suppositions.
Ah, that clears it up then.
Twit.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Oh FFS. I really can't be arsed trying to explain to you what the goal of shopping is. You appear to think that the goal is the process, and that if you can back out of the process by clicking an 'x' on the screen then that automatically means the shopping was easier.
[ 31. August 2017, 06:49: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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The comment wasn't about the goal. It was about which takes more time, action A or action B.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I have noticed, however, that some people advertise things for sale on eBay, claiming to send via Royal Mail, and then claim they can't post to Scottish Islands. It's quite bizarre.
FWIW, there is a setting on ebay where sellers can auto select places that they don't post to - including the highlands, channel islands and mann.
If one has a range of things to send and a range of postal carriers it might be easier just to say that one doesn't send to these locations, which I agree is a bit harsh to those who live in them.
Personally I've selected several of these because the items are fairly fragile and the risk of damage due to shipment by sea/air is much greater than it would be by road on the mainland.
[ 01. September 2017, 07:58: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, if it takes you hours to navigate IKEA, you're doing it wrong.
I can be in and out, with everything I need, within half an hour, and usually less.
(pro-tip - look up the codes on the website and enter the store through the tills)
That's definitely PhD level IKEA shopping... my big mistake is taking kids/spouse with me. That means:
"Can I play in the play area"
"No, we're just going to get a few things"
"Oooo! I just need to nip through the lighting section because I want to replace those lights in the conservatory"
[time passes]
"Can I have a hotdog on the way out?"
"If you stop annoying your brothers, possibly."
"Yaaaay! Hotdog!!!"
"Ooo - I wonder if it's worth getting some batteries while we're here"
"We've just gone past that section"
"I'll nip back; you carry on - I'll catch you up"
"BACKSLIDERLET #3 GET OFF THAT BED!"
"Ooooooooooooooooooooooh ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
"
[time passes]
[spouse catches up seconds before I finally brain Backsliderlet #3, the one with ADHD, naturally]
"What width is Backsliderlet #2's bed?"
[mentally search for random information unlikely to be held in /dev/KLBWorkingData]
"Don't know"
"Do you think this [photo on phone] will fit between it and the wall?"
"Probably. Don't know. Hard to tell".
.
.
.
"Did you get the light bulbs?"
"Have I been good enough for a hotdog?"*
"Can we have doughnuts?"
"Can I play in the play area while you're getting the car Daddy?"
.
.
.
.
Or is that just me? I know I'm doing it wrong. Tomorrow we're nipping into Decathlon. That's similar ("can I have this?" "No, we don't even have a bloody horse!"), and what's worse it's on the same retail park as IKEA. I must resolutely resist any temptation to nip in for a few of those kitchen utensil hooks or the morning's toast.
*Given the quality of the IKEA hotdogs, I think they should be threatened as a punishment, but there you go...
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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I have to admit, IKEA, 10am, weekday morning, kids at school and wife at work, does make everything simpler.
I do get the "why didn't you tell me you were going?/ We needed XYZ/ You hate spending any time with me*" discussion afterwards. Still worth it.
*I hate spending any time with you in IKEA because it turns you into an over-acquisitive consumer drone determined to fill the house with shiny crap we don't need. A nice walk in the park, or a trip out to the local NT property (with or without gays) would be lovely. But not bloody IKEA.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I have to admit, IKEA, 10am, weekday morning, kids at school and wife at work, does make everything simpler.
I do get the "why didn't you tell me you were going?/ We needed XYZ/ You hate spending any time with me*" discussion afterwards. Still worth it.
*I hate spending any time with you in IKEA because it turns you into an over-acquisitive consumer drone determined to fill the house with shiny crap we don't need. A nice walk in the park, or a trip out to the local NT property (with or without gays) would be lovely. But not bloody IKEA.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
you actually said this?
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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I've been married for 25 years. Speaking truth to power is a necessity.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth.
Baloney. I set up a recurring delivery of cat food on the Petco website some time ago. I never run out, and I don't have to deal with a store not having the right kind or not having enough to get me through more than a few days. I get an email before my order ships, and I can add any other pet supplies I might need. I reduce my carbon footprint a little bit, because I make zero trips to the store and my stuff is delivered to my workplace via UPS, which has us on a delivery route anyway. I've saved all kinds of time.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth. On the contrary, a bad online shop can suck up time like a Hoover.
Say I need to by a thingamawidget.
I can go online, search for the thingamawidget in the size and colour and purchase the one that fits my need and budget. Average time: 15 min. Maybe an hour if I am really picky about thingamawidgets.*
I can go to shops. Minimum time 30 minutes and that is if the one I want is in the closest shop, in stock and right next to the door.
Now, if you are including the time it takes for the thingamawidget being in my hands to use, then it is possible for the shops to be faster. However, If I do not need it today, I can do other things with my time whilst the item is being delivered.
Plus I can shop the world.
The problem I have with online shopping is that it helps kill brick and mortar stores. I hate killing jobs, I like small shops and sometimes one needs to see, feel, try on, etc. So online isn't my goto option if I can manage otherwise.
*I've taken days and days to make a decision, because of research and/or sourcing. But this would be also done before purchasing from a shop.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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Small, independent ("Mom and Pop") stores went into decline before Amazon took over the world. Little office supply stores were killed off by OfficeMax (BizMart at that time) and Staples, the local hardware stores succumbed to Home Depot and Lowes, bookstores had to compete with Borders (which did eventually lose out to Amazon) and Barnes and Noble. (These are all U.S. chains, but I'm sure each country has its equivalent, e.g., W.H. Smith.)
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Small, independent ("Mom and Pop") stores went into decline before Amazon took over the world.
They were killed by the big boxes, and in particular Walmart. This is pretty well documented.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The comment wasn't about the goal. It was about which takes more time, action A or action B.
No, actually, we were talking about bad shopping. Whichever WASTES more time is whichever doesn't achieve something.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth.
Baloney. I set up a recurring delivery of cat food on the Petco website some time ago. I never run out, and I don't have to deal with a store not having the right kind or not having enough to get me through more than a few days. I get an email before my order ships, and I can add any other pet supplies I might need. I reduce my carbon footprint a little bit, because I make zero trips to the store and my stuff is delivered to my workplace via UPS, which has us on a delivery route anyway. I've saved all kinds of time.
Wow. So... your success story negates the idea that a bad website can waste a lot of time... how, exactly?
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I can go online, search for the thingamawidget in the size and colour and purchase the one that fits my need and budget.
Aaand here's another person who wants to regale me with a success story of online shopping where they find the size and colour they want.
You all seem to be under the impression that I said online shopping was bad. I said nothing of the kind. What I actually was talking about was that I consider it a myth that online shopping is automatically better.
You know what, folks? I wasted a lot of time and energy this morning trying to figure out across a variety of websites whether I could organise a trip somewhere. I did that online. It would have been a lot less effort on my part to go to a travel agent and leave all the wrestling with options and possibilities with them.
Whether online shopping works better depends a hell of a lot on the specificity of what you want, the rarity of what you want, whether it's the kind of thing you need to ask questions about before purchasing, and so on and so forth.
I've done online shopping that has been quick and easy and simple. I never said otherwise, and all of you lining up to tell me your anecdotes of quick and easy online shopping are completely missing the bloody point.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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You did say otherwise. You said:
quote:
To me, the idea that websites "save time" because you don't physically travel is a pernicious myth.
But it's clearly not a myth -- I gave one example of a website that has saved me plenty of time precisely because I don't physically travel.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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orfeo, as RuthW pointed out, and as this quote further underlines
quote:
a bad online shop can suck up time like a Hoover.
you, by any reasonable interpretation, were comparing time and that is what I am addressing.
Better is subjective and I am not arguing that.
If online were not more convenient, and time is part of that, it would not be a cause of the shuttering of brick and mortar shops. And it is.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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If you go to the Trafford Centre in Manchester (I never have but I've heard all about it) you will find millions of people who want to waste time shopping. It's a leisure activity for them, they spend the day there.
Yes, I know, baffling madness - but they do.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What I actually was talking about was that I consider it a myth that online shopping is automatically better.
You might should have said that. What you SAID was:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop
I'm trying to think of a rational basis for this claim. So far I'm coming up with a blank. But then maybe shops are using magnets and forcefields these days.
The claim here by chris stiles was how easy it is to LEAVE a website. You disputed this. You said nothing about quality, or about wasting time.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I've been married for 25 years. Speaking truth to power is a necessity.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
SoF Quotes thread
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If you go to the Trafford Centre in Manchester (I never have but I've heard all about it) you will find millions of people who want to waste time shopping. It's a leisure activity for them, they spend the day there.
Yes, I know, baffling madness - but they do.
Though it does depend very much on what you want. If you want to buy a specific book, then shopping online is convenient. If you want to see what books might be interesting then nothing beats an hour or two browsing the shelves of a book shop.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
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My mother in law hates computers and has just about given up on hers, but she loves Amazon. The system is simple: she calls me - I already have her credit card number - says, "Get me a copy of James Weldon Johnson's "God's Trombones"!" (as she did last week) and within a few minutes I have it ordered for her, 400 miles away in a small town with no bookshops anywhere near. It arrived on Tuesday.
But there are shops and there are shops. The corner store, the village hardware store and the pub are all social media of the kind that don't require computers and passwords to get in. You'll never find me in a mall. Nobody makes fun of my body when I buy clothes on line.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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I order books and other items from Amazon, but not clothes. I want to see the actual colors and get an idea of whether a certain style is becoming to me.
Moo
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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I often buy clothes online because retail stores simply don't sell stuff I like.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If you go to the Trafford Centre in Manchester (I never have but I've heard all about it) you will find millions of people who want to waste time shopping. It's a leisure activity for them, they spend the day there.
Yes, I know, baffling madness - but they do.
Yeah, but it's weird; no-one ever fesses up to actually being one of these people.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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I know an author who shops for her characters at Saks (on 5th Avenue in Manhattan). She learns more about them by contemplating what kind of Manolos they would wear. She does not of course buy these things. I have been known to shop for the right truck, for a character to drive, but I do this by sitting in traffic. I don't actually buy the vehicle. This type of shopping is now largely superseded by Pinterest, where you can put pictures of stuff for reference.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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I research books on Amazon, then message the local brick-and-mortar owner, and she gets them for me. Usually my message consists of a screen shot of the Amazon page for the book, and the words, 'I need this.'
[ 03. September 2017, 13:45: Message edited by: mousethief ]
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Nobody "needs" to use Amazon.
This is ableist. They are a godsend to people with mobility impairments, as well as the blind. And for people who live out at the end of a 100 mile dirt road in East Bumfuck, Arkansas, they may be many times cheaper in time and gas than driving to the nearest place to get a book not carried by Walmart.
Nonsense! I make trips to local stores all the time. My money stays local. I am aging and disabled. I used Abebooks before they were subsumed by Amazon. I have never used Amazon or any on-line purchase which requires me to stay home to receive offerings and to repack and send back substandard goods.
If the store is local, I buy on-line, to be sure, but then I arrange someone to pick it up and deliver.
Colour me old, disabled, and grumpy.
[I hit enter before finishing]
[ 03. September 2017, 14:12: Message edited by: Uncle Pete ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Nobody "needs" to use Amazon.
This is ableist. They are a godsend to people with mobility impairments, as well as the blind. And for people who live out at the end of a 100 mile dirt road in East Bumfuck, Arkansas, they may be many times cheaper in time and gas than driving to the nearest place to get a book not carried by Walmart.
Nonsense! I make trips to local stores all the time. My money stays local. I am aging and disabled. I used Abebooks before they were subsumed by Amazon. I have never used Amazon or any on-line purchase which requires me to stay home to receive offerings and to repack and send back substandard goods.
If the store is local, I buy on-line, to be sure, but then I arrange someone to pick it up and deliver.
Colour me old, disabled, and grumpy.
[I hit enter before finishing]
Yes because one example of a disabled person able to go to the local shops, and whose local shops sell online, disproves all the other people who say when asked that Amazon has improved their lives hundred fold. How could I have not seen that?
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Colour me old, disabled, and grumpy.
And a pensioner, correct? You have the time that others might not.
Also, your preferences are just that; yours.
The fact is the world is becoming Amazonified because this is what most people want/like/accept.
I find it somewhat distressing because, as much as the internet expands, it also collapses.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This type of shopping is now largely superseded by Pinterest, where you can put pictures of stuff for reference.
This sort of illustrates one problem with the internet. It can provide the idea of greater depth when it is merely expanding the areas in which one can be superficial.
This is not in any way, shape or form meant to imply anything about you or your writing.
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on
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Ah, I get you now. Because I am a pensioner, I have all the time in the world to sit by my window waiting for delivery. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
You are a working person, correct? Ah, the misconceptions of youth!
I have to go somewhere.* I then wait til the next morning to book my transport, which may or may not pick me up at the time I desire the following day. Then I go shopping. Waiting time + travel time eats up a morning. A simple trip to the grocery store and 20 minutes shopping takes between 3=4 hours. When do I have time to be at home to wait for parcels? None.
* I use shopping as an example. Consider: doctors, lawyers, dentists, meetings or any of the other tasks of an old man. When I have free time I go to bookstores, or outside for exercise.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
When do I have time to be at home to wait for parcels? None.
You're gone all day every day seven days a week? Good God, man.
I assume you live in a rough neighborhood. If we're not here they leave the package on the porch and we get it when we get home.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
OK, apologies for assuming. You do not have more time. But who sits waiting for parcels anyway?
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
When do I have time to be at home to wait for parcels? None.
You're gone all day every day seven days a week? Good God, man.
I assume you live in a rough neighborhood. If we're not here they leave the package on the porch and we get it when we get home.
How nice you live in a house. I live in a well settled neighbourhood in a well maintained condominium medium rise building. Neither the Post Office nor couriers will leave parcels in the foyer. So unless I wait, who will? PO and courier deliveries are Monday-Friday, which, because those are the days that I am likely to be out and about since those are the days where the places I need to go to are open.
I am so glad I am not you, making assumptions, in all directions.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Neither the Post Office nor couriers will leave parcels in the foyer. So unless I wait, who will? PO and courier deliveries are Monday-Friday, which, because those are the days that I am likely to be out and about since those are the days where the places I need to go to are open.
It still doesn't negate mt's point that, for some, ordering online is a positive.
Amended to say that this potentially sucks for you, if your shops cannot survive the competition.
[ 03. September 2017, 20:35: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I am so glad I am not you, making assumptions, in all directions.
I am so glad I am not purposely goading people and generally being an asshole like you.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You might should have said that. What you SAID was:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Of course they do, the difference is that its easier to click away from a website than it is to walk out of a shop
I'm trying to think of a rational basis for this claim. So far I'm coming up with a blank. But then maybe shops are using magnets and forcefields these days.
The claim here by chris stiles was how easy it is to LEAVE a website. You disputed this. You said nothing about quality, or about wasting time.
Oh FFS. Seriously? It's perfectly clear from that I didn't dispute how easy it was to leave a website. I disputed the idea that it was HARDER to leave a SHOP.
Magnets and forcefields. You blithering idiot, I talked about magnets and forcefields.
His claim was not that it was easy. His claim was that it was easier. Do I actually have to explain the difference between "easy" and "easier" to you? Is that what this is about, your inability to understand comparators?
The conversation in fact moved on and I said different things after that, but I guess the remedial class should start with Step 1.
[ 04. September 2017, 13:41: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh FFS. Seriously? It's perfectly clear from that I didn't dispute how easy it was to leave a website. I disputed the idea that it was HARDER to leave a SHOP.
Typically, one has made more of an investment in time getting to a shop. So, whilst there are no constraints, it isn't the equivilant of clicking away from a website.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh FFS. Seriously? It's perfectly clear from that I didn't dispute how easy it was to leave a website. I disputed the idea that it was HARDER to leave a SHOP.
And it's perfectly clear my using the wrong word just once isn't the point, but I guess when one is wrong, as you are, one snatches at any straw one can find.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Another point to be taken into consideration is environmental friendliness. Seems to me that, at least in locales with inferior public transportation, it is much more efficient, and with a significantly smaller carbon footprint, for one delivery van to drive by 25 homes than for 25 people to fire up their cars and drive to the shopping district and/or mall.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Another point to be taken into consideration is environmental friendliness.
And the environmental unfriendliness of convenience meaning people buying more stuff
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Another point to be taken into consideration is environmental friendliness.
And the environmental unfriendliness of convenience meaning people buying more stuff
Which they do when they go to stores, too. For example grocery stores in particular put staples like milk and eggs and bread in places where you have to traverse aisles of stuff you never knew you wanted until you saw it. It's hard to go window shopping with Josephine, lest she spy a hat she suddenly fancies. I am the same way about other things. And don't get me started on used book shops. I would be interested in seeing a differentiation on this. My guess is it would be a wash.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I would be interested in seeing a differentiation on this. My guess is it would be a wash.
I don't think so. The internet broadens the consumer base, minimises effort and rewards* spontaneity.
From interest to ownership in minutes.
*In the brain chemistry aspect.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
I'm less apt to make impulse buys on Amazon. If something piques my interest, I'll put it on a wish list. I may or may not buy it at a future date. If something catches my eye in a store, I buy it right away because a) I don't want to have to drive back/park/walk another time; and b) it probably won't be there when I come back. Amazon gives me more time to think over my decision to buy or not to buy (or perchance to dream about the item ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
).
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
I make notes, mental or electronic, both in shops and online. If a shop no longer carries an item, I can usually find and purchase online. For me, that behaviour remains the same in either medium.
I am, in this discussion,trying to separate random preference v general trends. Or rather, my impression of them as I have not read studies regarding them.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Well this is survey based, anyways which atvl is better than hearsay or anecdote: Business Insider: You’re probably more likely to make an impulse buy in a physical store than when you’re shopping online
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well this is survey based, anyways which atvl is better than hearsay or anecdote: Business Insider: You’re probably more likely to make an impulse buy in a physical store than when you’re shopping online
If you see something you like on the internet, you can always go back to the site later. Going back to a store is much less convenient.
Moo
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well this is survey based, anyways which atvl is better than hearsay or anecdote:
My impression is based on observation. Not saying scientific, mind.
quote:
Business Insider: You’re probably more likely to make an impulse buy in a physical store than when you’re shopping online
I'd like to see the questions and parameters. If you see something in a shop that you were not there for and buy it, it is definitely impulse.
If you see something on your friend's Pinterest, search for it and then buy it, you are still in that magpie moment, but you might not consider it impulse because the purchase was not immediate.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well this is survey based, anyways which atvl is better than hearsay or anecdote: Business Insider: You’re probably more likely to make an impulse buy in a physical store than when you’re shopping online
If you see something you like on the internet, you can always go back to the site later. Going back to a store is much less convenient.
Moo
I think it's much harder to see something you didn't realize you wanted online, where there is likely one item per page and maybe a ribbon with five or ten items that other people looked at. Whereas with a store you have a gestalt view of hundreds of products as soon as you enter the aisles or walk onto the selling floor.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
I really like the online reviews, they give a much better idea than shop people do.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
To be fair, the best reviews are at Screwfix. A bunch of middle-aged blokes trying to come up with new ways of saying "Easy to fit, looks the part, and the missus thinks it was more expensive. Sorted."
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Some websites are raising the bar for reviews. I made a reservation for a local restaurant online, with the result that I got an email from the online-reservation-platform offering me FANTASTIC REWARDS if I would write a 200-word essay on my dining experience.
What was it Tolkien said? "Things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, or even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway."
I don't hate any of my local restaurants enough to write a bad review, and cannot motivate myself enough to write a good review that goes on for 200 words...
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