Ship of Fools: Trans threads in Dead Horses?

Thread: Trans threads in Dead Horses? Board: The Styx / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :

The DH guidelines say that homophobia is a deceased mammal of the equine persuasion and in days long gone I spent many an hour... actually probably several woman-months there as a consequence. But gender identity isn't sexuality. Shouldn't trans-related threads be in Purgatory?

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
The DH guidelines say that homophobia is a deceased mammal of the equine persuasion and in days long gone I spent many an hour... actually probably several woman-months there as a consequence. But gender identity isn't sexuality. Shouldn't trans-related threads be in Purgatory?

I seem to recall that the last time we had a big trans discussion in these parts, someone (Pomona, I think) suggested that the discussion belonged in the paddock, but the conclusion was that we hadn't worn the ruts deep enough yet. (DH being a home for endless arguments-that-never-die.)

So I'd think a discussion that was purely about trans* belonged in purg, as long as it didn't stray into homosexuality.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

So you think that trans, which not even all of the LGB part of the acronym quite accept or understand, is going to transcend the Bible set that God Hates Gayz contingent? Most of the same argument they use are used against any gender permutation other than straight men and women.

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :

Thanks LC.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So you think that trans, which not even all of the LGB part of the acronym quite accept or understand, is going to transcend the Bible set that God Hates Gayz contingent? Most of the same argument they use are used against any gender permutation other than straight men and women.

I don't know. On-shore it's largely the case that there's a huge amount of crossover (I'm neither cis nor straight) but as Dead Horses operates under Purgatorial rules the distinction between transphobia/homophobia and gender identity/sexuality might still be viable. At the very least, if trans issues were going to be sent to the glue factory then the DH guidelines should probably say so I'd argue.

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

I'll go poke the responsible Purgatoids and Ex-Equioids Tenders for their nuanced interpretations.

However, my personal preference would be to have at the conversations in either place. If they exhibit too much baseline return to tired ruts of reasoning, let them get shepherded into the paddock. If they prance and dance with ideas unexplored (or, at least less than a kajillion times), let them run free for a while to see where they go.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
I don't know. On-shore it's largely the case that there's a huge amount of crossover (I'm neither cis nor straight)

In reality there is crossover, in perception much less so.

quote:

but as Dead Horses operates under Purgatorial rules the distinction between transphobia/homophobia and gender identity/sexuality might still be viable.

There are issues regarding homosexuality that fit in Purg. However, these more often shift into DH territory than not. IME.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I'm assuming that this is the thread being referred to.

Any move of that thread is first and foremost the DH hosts' call.

For what it's worth, I'd agree that it might survive in Purgatory - or not. A cursory reading of the thread in question suggests it might, but it could easily veer straight back into DH territory.

I'd be tempted to leave it where it is now, but flag up for future reference the option of asking around a bit before making an OP one is not sure about - I have done this several times in the past by asking a host or hosts.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Like Eutychus I'm not sure whether that thread could stand in Purg without devolving into clear DH issues.

On such threads in general, my feeling is that if trans issues are the only reasons to keep a thread in DH, we should try it in Purg. For one thing, it seems most respectful to trans people and trans issues to not just consider trans a subset of LGBT. Also, procedurally, I think things should be officially added to the list of continuous-argument-causing topics on their own instead of us assuming they will cause troubles.

[ 01. March 2017, 22:47: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

I've argued before that trans-related threads should go in Purgatory for that reason: gender identity isn't sexuality, but I do apologise, I had forgot where that discussion had got to and I hadn't picked up on that thread to re-open it.

We used to have a very transphobic poster who would almost without fail derail any such thread onto his pet theory about transgender and homosexuality, but he no longer posts, so I think it should be possible to have trans-related threads in Purgatory without too much unrelated Dead Horse stuff being brought up these days.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

FWIW, I think this gets to the heart of the purpose of DH. As I understand it, it is for discussions with positions so hardened that the other boards would be cluttered up with the same people saying "A is correct" and the other people responding "B is correct"* and other posters just don't want to talk about it any more.

I'm sure strong opinions exist on various trans issues, but I don't see them as being things that are obviously regular battlegrounds for the same combatants derailing all threads that they touch. There seem to me to be better candidates of issues to be declared Dead Horses.

Not that anyone cares what I think, but that's my 2p.

* and actually, it is quite interesting how much nuance is detectable in debates in DH, IMO. Some of the discussions do actually seem to get somewhere (of course others basically don't).

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

There have been some significant social changes since we introduced and limited the DH category to "all aspects of homosexuality". The increasing use of the group category LGBTI does not infer that all members experience the same civil rights and social challenges, but it does make clear that there are significant similarities in the challenges faced. I think we should consider changing the DH category to reflect this.

But as things stand, and under recent interpretations of the guideline, the thread belongs in Purgatory.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

I suspect that any thread with transphobia as a theme is reasonably likely to have issues of homophobia brought in, as the two are frequently co-exist, and therefore there's a real possibility that it would either end up in DH or be somewhat artificially restricted. The various forms for prejudice and discrimination raise similar issues and can often usefully be compared and discussed together (as is happening on the gay-bakery thread in DH at present).

But trans issues are conceptually distinct from homosexuality and on the guidelines as I understand them a thread started in Purg on trans issues would not automatically be moved for that reason.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

We could solve the issue in one of two ways:

1. Amend the Dead Horses description to explicitly include debating trans people's right to exist. (The topic is not encompassed by "all aspects of homosexuality", so at present the guideline doesn't include trans issues.)

2. Keep such threads in Purgatory, and leave the DH description as-is.

I tend to stay out of such discussions, TBH. But I don't agree that they will never die… the tide of public opinion is changing, albeit slowly, and eventually those who think their morals lets them judge someone else's right to exist will be in a clear and tiny minority. But I guess you could say the same thing about people who are anti-LGB.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

There is the inevitable side-bar that threads involving DH topics often generate Hell calls. I don't think we've had a trans-inspired one yet, though it's only a matter of time.

It's difficult to debate trans issues without someone coming along who both denies trans people's existence and denigrates their experience: it has that in common with homosexuality, at least.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Based on a recent thread started in DH, I'm going to suggest a way forward.

Because of trans distinctives, there is value in trans threads being started in Purgatory and that should be normal. Future trans threads started in DH will get moved immediately to Purgatory.

But if a trans thread widens to incorporate the range of arguments associated with threads on homosexuality, we'll move the thread to DH.

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

Sounds good to me!

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