Ship of Fools: Education: Wide or deep?

Thread: Education: Wide or deep? Board: The Styx / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by SecondRateMind (# 18898) on :

My thread of this name (in Purgatory) was closed by Eutychus. He thought it might be a homework question. It wasn't; just a matter I thought would be of general interest to anyone contemplating, embarked on, or finished of, some course of education or other.

Please reopen my thread, and please, moderators, talk to me before you close down my threads in future. I may be able to disabuse you of your suspicious suppositions.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[ 28. January 2018, 17:42: Message edited by: SecondRateMind ]

Posted by SecondRateMind (# 18898) on :

Incidentally, for your information: I am studying religious studies, philosophy, environmental studies and politics. I would hate to be advised that I cannot post on these topics, just because I am learning about them. Or are only the ignorant and/or graduated to be tolerated, here, with no space for the rest of us, in between?

Best wishes again, 2RM.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Your case was not helped by your previous assertion here:

quote:
in response to homework threads, that I'll be less honest in future vis-a-vis the issues arising from my studies that interest me.

I might have given you the benefit of the doubt had it not been for that.

Of course we don't have 20-20 discernment on what a homework thread is, but it's true we're really not interested in doing people's homework for them.

If that isn't what you're about, then in future it would help if, in an OP, you ventured some of your own opinions instead of just referring to others', and if you do refer to others' opinions to support your argument, provide linked sources rather than expect others to find them for you.

(By the way, you don't have to find a "christian" angle to any topic you wish to discuss).

If you do that then I'm sure you can contribute plenty here. Contribution does not mean agreement, and we welcome robust debate, provided it's within the letter and the spirit of the Ten Commandments.

Just bear in mind that in view of your earlier comments, you have a bit of work to do to demonstrate you've understood that.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

The part of me that looks to trends informs me that if people are narrowly qualified and knowledgeable, they are easier to direct, control, misinform or propagandize, and otherwise keep them conforming as those who have an interest in keeping things orderly in a consumer society want.

We all need to have basic knowledge of science, literature, language, economics, history, other cultures and religions, our own culture. I'm biased to say keep yourself as broad as you can. Which also apologises for the 5 years I spend as an undergraduate student, taking 6 instead of 5 classes and also taking compressed courses in the spring and summer terms.

I decry students from any discipline who cannot quote any poetry, have no knowledge of literature, cannot articulate the theory of natural selection, don't know how chemical bonds form, don't know what calculus is, don't know how an internal combustion engine works, have never played a team sport, or worked in a lousy physical labour job. They can specialise later. Start broad.

Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on :

Hear, hear, NP.

That said, I'll confess (though neither host nor admin here), the OP of the thread in question looked very like a homework essay to me, albeit not a very well-constructed one. In my experience (at least with college students of the traditional sorts of ages / backgrounds in a US context), very general essay questions like this tend to yield very general responses, padded with copious lashings of bafflegab.

I have many colleagues who keep setting such questions for undergraduates, though.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Ohher, I am calling you to the Circus.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Your case was not helped by your previous assertion here:
quote:
in response to homework threads, that I'll be less honest in future vis-a-vis the issues arising from my studies that interest me.
I might have given you the benefit of the doubt had it not been for that.

Of course we don't have 20-20 discernment on what a homework thread is, but it's true we're really not interested in doing people's homework for them.

SecondRateMind

I believe you need to face facts here. You screwed the pooch.

Your post quoted by Eutychus is damning. You declared an insincere intention to mislead the Hosts. Such actions are a disrespect of the Ship's crew (Hosts and Admin). They do not just damage your own credibility. They may bring to to the attention of Admin under Commandment 6.

Trying to be constructive here, I think you need to climb down. That applies even if you claim the self-condemning post was some kind of joke. It sure didn't read like a joke. It also applies if you did not intend to use the thread under discussion here as a homework thread. How are Hosts supposed to know whether your intentions are sincere or not after your own declaration of intent?

As a matter of the guidelines, homework threads are not allowed since the intention is not to have a serious discussion, the clearly stated fundamental purpose of Purgatory, but to gather information and opinions for one's own purposes.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

In the interests of full disclosure: I was the one that alerted the Purg hosts to the presence of a(nother) potential homework thread.

Because your OP looked very much like the essay question "What is the purpose of education? Discuss." And you had already queered your pitch with your much-linked comment about wanting to slip homework threads under the host's radar. So I flagged your OP backstage, so that the Purg hosts could decide for themselves as to whether they thought something was off, or whether my initial impressions were wrong.

So while closing the thread may seem arbitrary and capricious, it wasn't just one person's whim because they've got it in for you.

Also, of your last 44 posts, 44 of them have been on threads you yourself have initiated. Engaging with other people's discussions is part of being a shipmate.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

Arbitrary and capricious seems to be the norm.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Arbitrary and capricious seems to be the norm.

Don’t bogart whatever you are smoking

Posted by SecondRateMind (# 18898) on :

OK, I'm willing to arrive at a gentleman's agreement, if you are. I'll commit not post 'homework' threads, if you will agree not to close down the topics I want to discuss. That doesn't mean I won't raise points relevant to my studies, but it does mean I won't expect you to do my essays for me. As for engaging with other people's posts, well, I'm quite willing to do that too, as and when I have some pertinent point or point of view to state.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
OK, I'm willing to arrive at a gentleman's agreement, if you are. I'll commit not post 'homework' threads, if you will agree not to close down the topics I want to discuss. That doesn't mean I won't raise points relevant to my studies, but it does mean I won't expect you to do my essays for me. As for engaging with other people's posts, well, I'm quite willing to do that too, as and when I have some pertinent point or point of view to state.

Best wishes, 2RM.

For what it's worth SecondRateMind, I think you would be better off engaging in existing threads. I can't believe there's nothing here to interest you. Some threads might have been going on for a while but reading the existing posts could well be of value to you.

Regards, Sioni

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
OK, I'm willing to arrive at a gentleman's agreement, if you are. I'll commit not post 'homework' threads, if you will agree not to close down the topics I want to discuss. That doesn't mean I won't raise points relevant to my studies, but it does mean I won't expect you to do my essays for me. As for engaging with other people's posts, well, I'm quite willing to do that too, as and when I have some pertinent point or point of view to state.

Best wishes, 2RM.

IOW: Here are my terms on how you may run your enterprise. Nice.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Well, that's a bit of a climb down, thanks. But Hosts can't commit to close down threads you want discussed. There may be reasons other than your best intentions. Threads don't get closed all that often, but there are other Commandment breach reasons by any Shipmate, not just you. Threads may get closed because they stop being serious discussion. Threads may get closed, or transferred to Hell, because they become too Hellish for Purgatory. Threads may get closed because of Commandment 7, 8 or 9 breaches. There are other reasons as well, but those examples should be sufficient to show you why you can't have a gentleman's agreement on your terms.

Don't know about other Hosts but I'm happy to accept a commitment not to post homework threads and see how threads develop. It might take you a while to restore credibility lost by the post where you shot yourself in the foot, but I'm prepared to cut you some slack.

In the end, that's not my decision alone. Your complaint here was directly against Eutychus, only indirectly against me. I hope you can see that your own words caused the ruling. So I'd like to hear from my colleague.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Sorry, that should have said 'not to close down'. Probably obvious from context.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I'm re-opening the thread, not as a gentlemen's agreement but as a considered good faith gesture after discussion. It's up to you to respond appropriately.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

SecondRateMind

You're lucky. You completely lost the argument here because you screwed up your own case. I hope you appreciate that. So don't waste this second chance. Mind how you go.

Posted by SecondRateMind (# 18898) on :

The thing is, I'm not particularly interested in scoring points and winning arguments. I just want to save the world. I can't do it by myself, but I hope that, by contributing to the 'Great Debate' of the world, I might make some, small, contribution. And I can't do that, here, if my threads are routinely closed as a matter of general policy. So, I will abide by my part of the agreement, considering that my word, once given, is rarely broken, and only when circumstances beyond my power to resist intervene.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[ 29. January 2018, 14:20: Message edited by: SecondRateMind ]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Hold hard. You just tried to score a point. And made a mistake.

There is no agreement. There is instead a gesture of good faith. Don't waste it.

Posted by SecondRateMind (# 18898) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Hold hard. You just tried to score a point. And made a mistake.

There is no agreement. There is instead a gesture of good faith. Don't waste it.

There is a difference between making a point, and 'scoring a point'. One is necessary to any rational argument, the other is a somewhat petty, egotistical motivation for engaging in discussion.

I thank you for your gesture of good faith. In return, I commit etc, etc. That's all I was trying to say.

I'll see you in discussion, in Purgatory.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
That doesn't mean I won't raise points relevant to my studies, but it does mean I won't expect you to do my essays for me.

Which is all we ask for.

I'm past the point of writing essays, but I do prepare sermons. I don't come here looking for help preparing a sermon, though discussions over the last (almost) 20 years certainly have informed my opinions and may end up influencing what I preach. I do, fairly regularly, see something new or interesting in the texts I'm given and have started new threads as a result of that - but, by that point the sermon is largely written (if not actually preached) and discussions here therefore don't end up in what I preach.

If you take an analogous approach then I'm sure when you research and write your essays you will find things that you hadn't previously come across and find interesting. We would welcome you sharing what you find interesting, because the chances are someone else here may find it interesting (no guarantees about that though), after you've written the essay.

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