Ship of Fools: High Church CofE in London

Thread: High Church CofE in London Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

Hi everyone,

I'm moving back to London soon and looking for new places of worship to try. I realise that London is full of High Church/Anglo-Catholic places and that these have probably been discussed to death on this forum.

However, I'm looking for a more specific kind of church - one that is sometimes called "Prayer Book Catholic": one that worships in the language of the BCP and hears the readings from the AV, that doesn't sacrifice the daily office in favour of weekday morning and evening masses, one that doesn't fill its liturgy with unnecessary Latin or imitates Roman doctrine too much (an Angelus after Mass doesn't bother me, nor does occasional Benediction, but things like praying for the Pope rather than for the Queen or the Archbishop really do).

I'd be very grateful if anyone could help me find such a church, If such churches still exist.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I think All Saints, Margaret Street would fit the bill of 'prayerbook Catholic'.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

A big place, London! Any district in mind or are you prepared to travel?

St Michael's Cornhill in the City would have ticked your boxes a few years ago. I'm not quite sure now, but maybe worth finding out. Or St Bartholomew the Great Smithfield, though they do tend to use Latin sometimes.

I expect the number of churches that use the AV for the readings is vanishingly small. The old flagship All Saints Margaret Street uses (as far as I know) 'trad' language at the High Mass but I would think the readings are from NRSV.

There are bound to be a few 'high and dry' churches here and there in the more upper-class suburbs.

Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

Thanks for your replies, guys. I should have clarified that I meant central London - basically just about anywhere in zone 1.

I am very glad that ASMS seems less embarrassed to be CofE than many other A-C parishes, but if there's one thing that grates me ever so slightly it's the mish-mash between trad and modern language in their Mass. I'm not talking so much about the readings as about the psalms and the chants (the introit, etc.). Surely it makes more sense to go either with traditional language or modern language the whole way through, rather than to jar the congregation's ears by switching back and forth? (I do realise I'm being a bit picky here....)

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I used to get slightly vexed by that switch between latin, old english and contemporary english in mass settings, introits and motets etc, but now I see it more as a fact of what they are and what the church is - it's on a continuum. There are aspects of the distance past, the near past and the present. More and more, it strikes me that this is how it should be because it is what the church manifestly is.

Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I used to get slightly vexed by that switch between latin, old english and contemporary english in mass settings, introits and motets etc, but now I see it more as a fact of what they are and what the church is - it's on a continuum. There are aspects of the distance past, the near past and the present. More and more, it strikes me that this is how it should be because it is what the church manifestly is.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and certainly one that I hadn't considered. However, I would have thought that in a liturgy that uses traditional language, the place for contemporary language is not in the set, ancient parts of the liturgy (like the introit and motet) but in, for example, the prayers of the people and (obviously) in the sermon.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

I wonder if you need to look for a said service. I suspect then you would find the language is consistent in such places.

Jengie

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I think All Saints, Margaret Street would fit the bill of 'prayerbook Catholic'.

I attended a First Mass of Sunday there one Saturday a few weeks back and found it very comforting.

A lovely place, and I hope to return there soon.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I suspect it uses Common Worship rather than 1662 and it may be too far out of the centre for you, but St Mary's, Lewisham appears to have the office morning and evening rather than daily mass. I haven't had any contact with it for some years, but it used to be inspirationally multi-ethnic.

Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I suspect it uses Common Worship rather than 1662 and it may be too far out of the centre for you, but St Mary's, Lewisham appears to have the office morning and evening rather than daily mass. I haven't had any contact with it for some years, but it used to be inspirationally multi-ethnic.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it, even though Lewisham would be quite a Sunday morning commute.

Andras: agreed, ASMS really is a wonderful church.

Posted by Ascension-ite (# 1985) on :

I have no direct experience of either, but perhaps St. Paul's Knightsbridge and St/ Bartholomew the Great may fit the bill, think they're both more Anglo than Papalist. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who as been to either lately.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I do have ssome sympathy with the wishes expressed in the OP. But may I suggest something which may make me come across as bit of a wet blanket? When you move back, try your parish church first, or at least try the churches which are local to you, and although they'll almost certainly fall short of your ideal, see whether you think you can live with them- if necessary, topped up with the occasional dip into ASMS or somewhere in the week. That way, putting up as you will with the occasional liturgical infelicity and the odd mildly irritating idiosyncrasy, but worshipping as you will with people you may bump into when you're out shopping, you may end up with a rather messier but ultimately richer and dare one say it more catholic experience than you would at the one church in the whole metropolis whose liturgy absolutely suits you, to which you have a 90 minute journey by public transport each way.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Albertus has put it very kindly. The really Church of England thing is to go to your parish church. Or at least somewhere within walking distance.

And if you are catholic, Christ will be present in the elements of the eucharist whatever the personal opinion of the priest and congregation.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Which then begs the wider question - for all Christians, not just Anglicans - of whether selecting our church should be a "consumer choice" of "what ticks the boxes" for us as individuals, or whether it should be identifying with our local Christian community, glitches and all, which is seeking to serve Christ in the locality?

Ultimately there may be some expressions of Christian worship we find we cannot live with - but there is usually a choice of churches in an area, especially in cities, so perhaps we can find one in which we find ourselves reasonably comfortable ("topping up", as has been suggested above, with occasional visits elsewhere - I occasionally like being able to go to Cathedral Evensong, for example).

[ 27. September 2016, 08:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I agree with Albertus, Venbede and Baptist Trainfan. Those are very good points.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Which then begs the wider question - for all Christians, not just Anglicans - of whether selecting our church should be a "consumer choice" of "what ticks the boxes" for us as individuals, or whether it should be identifying with our local Christian community, glitches and all, which is seeking to serve Christ in the locality?

Ultimately there may be some expressions of Christian worship we find we cannot live with.

Or which cannot live with us. This is oft forgotten.

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ascension-ite:
I have no direct experience of either, but perhaps St. Paul's Knightsbridge and St/ Bartholomew the Great may fit the bill, think they're both more Anglo than Papalist. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who as been to either lately.

St Bartholomew the Great was visited by a mystery worshipper during Holy Week this year. Can't find a report for any churches in Knightsbridge.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

St. Giles'-in-the-Fields could very well suit you. Sunday services are 9.00 said Communion, 11.00 Sung Eucharist & 18.30 choral/sung Evensong. It is not a church I know well, but I have been there if for no other reason than to do bell-ringing. I met the Vicar, the Revd. Alan Carr, recently. I know that St. Giles' has a reputation for using BCP.

To quote your second paragraph in the OP (from your perspective - not from mine), St. Silas' Kentish Town is a church to be avoided, which does everything you don't want!

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

I'd agree with Albertus and venbede if the BCP were still the usual basis of Sunday worship. But these days, you can wind up with anything from a charismatic hymn sandwich to a Eucharistic celebration virtually indistinguishable from the RC Novus Ordo. Those are, obviously, extremes--but my point is that if churches are marketing themselves according to a consumer model (by providing niche products), how can parishioners be blamed for shopping?

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
St Michael's Cornhill in the City would have ticked your boxes a few years ago.

That was precisely my first thought on reading the OP (although IIRC they do fiddle with the BCP a bit when it comes to Holy Communion).

Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :

St Giles in the Fields and St Mary Abbots are both Olde Language with minor BCP tweaks. Neither might be 'catholick' enough, depending on how one defines that sensibility.

St Paul's Knightsbridge is Olde Language and smells and bells.

Does anyone know what Holy Trinity Sloane Square is like? It seems to me they were Olde Language at one time but I suspect no longer.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I'd agree with Albertus and venbede if the BCP were still the usual basis of Sunday worship. But these days, you can wind up with anything from a charismatic hymn sandwich to a Eucharistic celebration virtually indistinguishable from the RC Novus Ordo. Those are, obviously, extremes--but my point is that if churches are marketing themselves according to a consumer model (by providing niche products), how can parishioners be blamed for shopping?

I think it's accepted that if the basics aren't there (celebration of the Eucharist each Sunday done in good order) then one might have to consider going elsewhere, but that the starting point should be your parish church. If you can live with it, even if not perfect, you should try.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

BCP can mean different things to different people, with or without the customary additions and deviations.

One feature seldom or never to be found, is the lengthy Exhortations, there to be read out if so desired, in the middle of the service.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

The CofE wants to have its cake and eat it. It likes the idea of loyalty to the local church, but allows and encourages diversity (including the funding of Fresh Expressions) which is obviously going to undermine that loyalty.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

I recently attended the Choral Eucharist at St.Michael's Cornhill.
The liturgy was a beautiful Prayer Book Eucharist,close to the BCP 1928/Interim Rite,however there were some enrichments : Behold the Lamb of God and Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof,but speak the word only and my soul shall be healed.
Incense was used,however I found the ceremonial rather Reformed Catholic.
The three readings were taken from Year C.
The music and hymns were sublime.
Sloane Street is using the modern C.W.rite, two readings.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
St Giles in the Fields and St Mary Abbots are both Olde Language with minor BCP tweaks.

In other words, Common Worship, Order Two.

Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.

I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?

Posted by Ascension-ite (# 1985) on :

I was just looking over the website at St. Bartholomew the Great, and judging by their online photo galleries, they appear to be more in the Anglo-Catholic camp than I had thought. Which makes them yet another parish I want to visit, by may not fit OP's criteria. Seems that London is A-C central.

http://www.greatstbarts.com/Pages/Services/Liturgical%20Seasons/holy_week_photo.html

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Two others to add to existing suggestions are St James Garlikhythe in the City which is similar to St Michael Cornhill, perhaps a notch lower in terms of ceremonial. Also St George Hanover Square has a BCP Choral Eucharist, no bells or smells. St Giles is probably the church that uses the BCP closest to the 1662 rite, but I think sees itself as Central rather than Prayer Book Catholic.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.

I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?

Sure. But as a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

I think you might be right at home at St Magnus the Martyr, by London Bridge and the Monument. Nosebleed high and a gorgeous Wren church.

Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I've found this discussion really interesting to read.

I'm very much a parish church kind of guy when I'm at home (by home, I mean in the country, where I grew up). But I think cities, and London in particular, are different. What is a parish church when there's another church 50 yards further away in the opposite direction?
Sure. But as a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.

Very much agreed.

Will definitely check out St Michael's Cornhill.

As far as St Magnus is concerned, I thought it's reputation was one of being rather more Anglo-Papalist?

One rather off-topic but I suppose loosely related musing I had this morning: I'm still relatively young and I've never heard the Decalogue, or even just the Summary of the Law, recited in a CofE church. Is this just not done anywhere anymore, and if so, when did it start going "out of fashion"?

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:

One rather off-topic but I suppose loosely related musing I had this morning: I'm still relatively young and I've never heard the Decalogue, or even just the Summary of the Law, recited in a CofE church. Is this just not done anywhere anymore, and if so, when did it start going "out of fashion"?

Without a doubt it must be done somewhere!

I think that the introduction of Series 2 and all that in the late 60s was its death knell. Even before that I seem to remember the Summary of the Law as being more usual.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

The Decalogue is rare but tends to be used much more in Lent. The summary of the law on the other hand is used in quite a few churches, but in London seems more popular in the suburbs. In my neck of the woods it tends to be used in sunny side of middle parishes.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Colin Stephenson tells the story of when he was Administrator of Walsingham and helped out at nearby rural parishes where he tried to give them what they were used to.

He used the BCP Holy Communion as set and afterwards a farmer came up and said to him “Thank you very much, vicar, but we’re not so high church as you are so we don’t have the ten commandments.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Originally posted by Albertus:
As a very general rule, better the church 50 yards outside your parish than the church 15 miles outside it.

quote:
Very much agreed.

I imagine that most churchgoing Anglicans do attend their local church. But I think it's unwise to be too critical of those who don't.

Making a 'general rule' out of it would require many Anglicans to go to church on autopilot, totally unconcerned with quality, theology or suitability (e.g. if they have young children but there's no proper Sunday School - which is a real issue for many churches) or simple atmosphere at their local church. It's surely not a recipe for a high degree of lay engagement.

I should think such an approach also does very little for evangelism (although I realise that the CofE is not designed to prioritise evangelism). And presumably it creates the kinds of Christians who prove their loyalty to the local church they never attend by not joining another church that might suit them better (although, again, this may not be an unacceptable attitude to have in the CofE).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

A general rule, in the sense of a rule of thumb, a starting principle for making a decision.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

More fully (missed edit window)

A general rule, in the sense of a rule of thumb, at the very least a starting principle for making a decision, more strongly a rebuttable presumption. And this is perhaps sometimes a difference between 'Anglicans' and 'Church of England (in Wales, of Ireland[in some places?]) people'. I count myself among the latter

[ 03. October 2016, 18:57: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I do know what the term means. My point is that it's problematic.

Being British, both you and I are referring to the British Anglicanism, specifically the CofE. It's paradoxical that England has what may be the most diverse forms of Anglicanism in the world, yet the assumption is that 'as a general rule' local CofE folk should attend the local church regardless of this diversity.

The diversity should be reduced, then the attraction of going elsewhere would be less. Of course, attendance would also drop, but you can't have everything!

Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Have a look at their website's ad for a new priest - the parish profile is quite detailed!

http://www.stmarysbournest.com/news/entry/parish_priest_advert

Ian J.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Deputy Verger:
I think you might be right at home at St Magnus the Martyr, by London Bridge and the Monument. Nosebleed high and a gorgeous Wren church.

Hence my mention above of St. Silas' Kentish Town, without going into detail, suggesting the opposite sentiment - i.e. a church to be avoided. That is undoubtedly nose-bleed high and anglo-papalist. It is in fact, Brompton Oratory Mark2.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?

Very high but they do use the BCP Eucharistic Rite (Interim Rite of course) with traditional language. Sung Credo, good choir and exotic mass settings.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Can anyone tell me anything about worship at St Mary Bourne Street?

Included within the same benefice, is St. Barnabas' Pimlico, only a few streets away from St. Mary's, so the worship at both Churches is similar to identical.

I went to the previous Parish Priest's farewell Mass (at St. Barnabas' Church) on 2nd. February last year (2015) on the Feast of Candlemass, of course. As Bishop's Finger indicates, it is still in Interregnum, 20 months later.

Once the new PP is appointed and in post, watch this space for any changes that may take place there. I think given the reputation of these Churches, changes in worship-style and/or churchmanship will be minimal and not too drastic.

Other shipmates have beaten me to it, in giving a flavour of these two Churches within the same Benefice.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

/minor tangent/

It seems that St. Barnabas, Pimlico, is now once more flying solo, and is no longer in plurality with Bourne Street.

Ian J.

Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

Another question: abroad, and feeling a little homesick, I've been listening to a few choral evensongs from the Radio 3 archive. Even in the 90s, the readings are invariably from the AV. When did the AV start being phased out of English churches?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Are you sure you weren't hearing the RSV? It was still thees and thous until the NRSV.

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :

The Prayer Book Society is of the opinion that if you are doing a 1662 service, you should be using the AV.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Are you sure you weren't hearing the RSV? It was still thees and thous until the NRSV.

It was thee and thou for God, and you for humans. Hence questionably orthodox.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
The Prayer Book Society is of the opinion that if you are doing a 1662 service, you should be using the AV.

That would seem to be consistent.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
The Prayer Book Society is of the opinion that if you are doing a 1662 service, you should be using the AV.

I've always thought this is unnecessary, in the same way that frequently, before Vatican II, mass would be said in Latin but the readings in English. The stuff that's read week-by-week (the "ordinary") can be studied and understood over time, but the readings that you get once a year or three years need to be understood immediately.

Perhaps it's a little inconsistent (though the NRSV generally preserves the cadences of the AV fairly well) but worship oughtn't solely to be about preserving a relic of the past.

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
/minor tangent/

It seems that St. Barnabas, Pimlico, is now once more flying solo, and is no longer in plurality with Bourne Street.

Ian J.

St Barnabas now has its own priest in charge and are exploring their viability as their own parish again. St Mary's and St Barnabas are quite different places in spite of their shared history with the latter being much more parish church and modern catholic in emphasis I'd say. St Mary's isn't everyone's cup of tea, particularly if worshippers are looking for a particular pigeon hole. Currently served by the wonderful Fr Neil Bunker supported by a number of assisting clergy including the former vicar, Fr Bill Scott.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Just spotted your reply, Incensed. I'm pleased to hear St. Barnabas is doing well, though I doubt if it's quite the OPer's cup of tea..

Do they still host a Mar Thoma congregation? That would be an interesting subject for a Mystery Worshipper report.

IJ

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Has anybody mentioned this one?

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just spotted your reply, Incensed. I'm pleased to hear St. Barnabas is doing well, though I doubt if it's quite the OPer's cup of tea..

Do they still host a Mar Thoma congregation? That would be an interesting subject for a Mystery Worshipper report.

IJ

Melkites, yes...

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

O - my mistake. Why did I think they hosted a Mar Thoma congo?

I don't think the C of E is in communion with the Melkites, but it's still good that the two congos can share the building.

Re Angloid's question about St. George, Hanover Square, it was mentioned earlier in the thread. Worth a visit by the OPer, I guess.

IJ

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

Don't think anyone's mentioned The Annunciation Marble Arch yet. It looks pretty high church to me, though to my non-conformist eyes, once you've got robes and liturgy, the rest of all rather the same.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I went to The Annunciation some few years ago for their Feast of Title service. It was indeed quite high up the candle (an image of Our Lady was carried in procession by four stout lads), but I couldn't tell you what rite was used - it was difficult to see the service book, anyway, on account of the drifting smoke...

Beautiful church, though, and well worth a visit.

IJ

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

Well, there doesn't seem to be an MW report on it yet, and there's 'A Service of Traditional Lessons & Carols' on a Saturday evening next month...... [Two face]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Don't think anyone's mentioned The Annunciation Marble Arch yet. It looks pretty high church to me, though to my non-conformist eyes, once you've got robes and liturgy, the rest of all rather the same.

It looks interesting. Inclusive: the assistant priest lives with his civil partner (so do many other priests but don't usually publicise the fact on a website). They seem to have a flourishing Sunday School which suggests a 'normal' parish despite the location. Should be worth checking out. I see that they are no longer directly served by ASMS clergy but maintain a close association.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

It does indeed look interesting, and I wonder what their stance is regarding women priests?

With a Sunday School of around 100 each week, they're clearly doing something right!

IJ

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

I should think the Annunciation is beyond high church and outright Anglo-Catholic. I even seem to recall it figuring in Yelton's Anglican Papalism, though it appears not to have found favour with FiF in more recent years.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

As you might expect, Sipech, there are as many tribal variations at the high end of the candle as there are across the non-conformist and evangelical spectrum.

I'm not among the cognoscenti as very high Anglican parishes are few and far between in this diocese.

I know enough, though to recognise the broad tribes and also old enough to remember when Geneva gowns and a certain amount of regalia could be found in some non-conformist settings.

As you'll appreciate, there are gradations. So the presence of robes and a degree of ceremonial does not, in and of itself, denote a 'high' inclination.

Where the lower end of the candle blends with the middle and where the middle segues into the 'nose-bleed high' is something the cognoscenti can tell us. FWIW it's as much to do with particular actions and so on as it is to do with garb - and of course, these days plenty of evangelical Anglican clergy eschew any form of clerical dress or regalia. Spoil-sports ...

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

As you might expect, Sipech, there are as many tribal variations at the high end of the candle as there are across the non-conformist and evangelical spectrum.

I'm not among the cognoscenti but know enough, though to recognise the broad tribes and also old enough to remember when Geneva gowns and a certain amount of regalia could be found in some non-conformist settings.

There are gradations. The presence of robes and a degree of ceremonial does not, in and of itself, denote a 'high' inclination.

Where the lower end of the candle blends with the middle and where the middle segues into the 'nose-bleed high' is something the cognoscenti can tell us. FWIW it's as much to do with particular actions and so on as it is to do with garb - and of course, these days plenty of evangelical Anglican clergy eschew any form of clerical dress or regalia. Spoil-sports ...

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Where the lower end of the candle blends with the middle and where the middle segues into the 'nose-bleed high' is something the cognoscenti can tell us. FWIW it's as much to do with particular actions and so on as it is to do with garb - and of course, these days plenty of evangelical Anglican clergy eschew any form of clerical dress or regalia. Spoil-sports ...

It's getting more and more difficult to tell! Just as there are many (more?) evangelical clergy who lead worship in street clothes , there are many fewer who would refuse to wear traditional vestments on principle. So you may have a church with an anglo-catholic tradition but an evangelical vicar, and to the non-cognoscenti the services might appear 'high church'. And there always have been catholically-inclined clergy ministering in 'lower' churches. St Augustine's Queens Gate, in London, has a long anglo-catholic tradition and is now an offshoot of Holy Trinity Brompton, who I understand maintain the morning Sung Mass alongside popular gospel services.

The main distinction at the top of the candle now is between Forward in Faith (the anti-women-priest organisation) and the rest; just as I imagine there are Reform churches - evangelical, not keen on women priests and even less keen on gay ones - in amongst the less doctrinaire evangelical ones. These differences may be expressed in the style of worship but it isn't an infallible guide.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

St Augustine's AIUI moved to vers pop in surplice and stole.

Posted by Ratratrat (# 18669) on :

Hello all, hope you've had a very blessed Christmas.

Could anyone who's familiar with it tell me anything about the worship at the Temple Church other than what's written on their website (choral BCP services with *Mattins* as the main Sunday service - you don't see that very often).

Thanks all.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Welcome! The Temple Church has been Mystery Worshipped once (at Evensong): the reviewer describes it as "Very middle Anglican, not high ... but very formal."

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :

And I see exciting news at St Mary's Bourne Street yesterday http://www.stmarysbournest.com/news/entry/appointment_of_a_new_vicar
A new era begins!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Wow. I went on a psycho synthesis retreat with him 15 years ago or so at a Jesuit retreat house at Warrington

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