Thread: Teenagers & YA in Anglo-Catholic Parishes Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
Hi,
So I have been having discussions with some clergy around youth programs and keeping children in church. One particular issue that came up was in nose bleed high Anglican churches how do you make(keep?) that relevant to young people?
I'm not from quite that high a tradition but do acknowledge that the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s.
Will Anglo-catholic churches die out from "lack of relevance to young people"?
Does anybody have any examples of such churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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The young people from my parents' church (a group of about 10, I think) thoroughly enjoyed their camping trip to Walsingham. I think where Anglo-Catholic churches can win is the number of opportunities for participation. Between the choir and the altar party there are a lot of things to be done, and giving young people responsibility can make them feel more of a part of things. Well run choirs, in particular, can bring large numbers of young people to faith. Often people whose parents don't regularly attend.
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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The young people I noticed who are involved in Anglo-catholic parishes who are not preparing for ordained ministry tend to be attracted to social justice ministry and by in large, are very politically aware and active.
Anglo-catholics might advertise itself more to young people who are both social justice-inclined and yearn for spirituality.
Posted by RainbowGirl (# 18543) on
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I come from the opposite end. As a teenager and now 'young adult' in the church I crave the tradition of Anglo-Catholicism as does a lot of my peer group.
Have a look at Taize services, which tend to cater to a younger crowd. Bible studies that look to the deeper background and context also go down well. You don't need the trappings of live bands and energetic speakers to stay relevant, as long as you are reaching their faith and feeding their spirituality. That said, they do have their place, but its the core truth that matters most of all.
The youth group I work with at the moment is in an Anglo-Catholic parish (I was in an Evangelical one before this) and it blew me away how the kids responded to simple things like praying and lighting candles at the end of the Bible study. When it comes to games, food and bible study there's very little difference between evangelical and anglo-catholic youth groups, it's only the services that differ, and even then they still share many similarities.
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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This site may be on interest to you. There are annual youth conferences in various parts of the United States for Anglo-Catholic youth.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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I find that people move through different styles of worship at different ages. When I was a teenager I was about as evangelical as it was possible to be. Then as a young parent I was very middle of the road. Now as a senior citizen I crave the thoughtfulness and reverence I find in my Anglo Catholic Church. I'm inclined to think that it is difficult to make one size fits all and maybe it doesn't matter that the young want a different style of worship than we older worshippers. I certainly couldn't go back to the church of my youth and I can accept that the young do not want to attend my church in great numbers, but maybe they will choose to try it in a few years time. (After all, I refused to eat broccoli as a child, but these days I love it.)
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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About twelve years ago we were in the process of electing a new Bishop. The four finalists came around on the usual dog-and-pony show. Each candidate was asked (individually -- they were divided among four groups and then changed groups every fifteen minutes or whatever) what he would do to attract the youth. Three of them mentioned getting out the guitars and drum kits. Our current Bishop said that he was then living in an area with several colleges and universities. His church started offering Evensong on Sundays. They attracted quite a number of college-age young adults who liked the mystical feel of the incense, the chanting, etc.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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It's half a century since I was that sort of age. Until part way through my time at University I wasn't terribly interested in Christian faith, and did not want to be. Anglo-Catholicism was at a complacent and somewhat moribund node on its historical trajectory.
Not only are times different. It's also difficult to imagine oneself that age again. It's harder still to work out what grips people that age now - despite the fact that I try quite hard to do so. However, I can't imagine that there would have been anything about that tradition that would have had any resonance or appeal, neither for me nor for virtually any of the people I mixed with.
So, I'd be inclined to say that if you are one of those who thinks that it is important to present a 'party' expression of Christianity, if Anglo-Catholicism is what lights your candle, and if you'd like to share it with the younger generation, make sure the version of it you present has moved as far as possible from a yearning for the 1920s, Percy Dearmer and an obsession with liturgical or sartorial minutiae.
The evangelicalism that was the 'normal' version of Christianity one encountered when I was at University was a bit narrow. Looking back, I think that's also an inherent failing of being that age. However, the two impressive things it did have, as it was then, which Anglo-Catholicism, again as it presented itself then, did not, were personal engagement with God and an intellectual rigour.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
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Thanks all, interesting variety of comments to think about.
Enoch, I agree re the 1920s, but rather feel that in my neck of the woods anyway, Evangelicalism is stuck in a 1950s-1970s mindset and that can only last so long. I pray that there will be new expressions of faith that are appropriate to the early 21st century, that build on Anglo-catholic and Evangelical traditions.
As far as evangelicalism goes, I find it has intellectual rigor mortis as opposed to intellectual rigour! The worst part about that is that they still cling to the notion that they are intellectual when they're really unable to think for themselves and stuck in an 1850s mindset.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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The information I have been seeing says millennials and their younger peers are not as turned on a guitar and drum show as their parents were.
Instead they seen to like a more participatory worship with a mix of new hymns and traditional hymns.
They also like a church that is not hypocritical and is accepting of all people--that is open and affirming.
Social justice has been mentioned. They are also concerned about climate change issues.
They want to be able to ask the hard questions as well without fear of reprisal. They want to be able to share their doubts as well as their hopes.
In many ways, when I read these studies, I think there is a good opportunity for more mainline churches to reach out to the 20 somethings.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
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Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Yes indeed, and I do so wish Our Place (backstreet A-C, with 2000 students out of a parish population of 6000) could become inclusive.
Instead, we are currently held to ransom by Father F***wit and a few other anti-gay, anti-OOW etc. types. Father F. retires soon (he who says 'I'm OK with Wimmin, as long as they keep their pinafores on, and stay in the kitchen'), so with the help of the Grace of God, things may change...
Meanwhile, we have a small number of young people of various ages from 5 to 14+, some of whom attend on Sundays, and others who attend our monthly 'Crafty Church', so there is at least some scope for future pastoral work - as long as we get a new priest who will encourage the current lay-led initiatives!
IJ
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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My last post was in answer to Gramps49, but I take Ceremoniar's point regarding the more trad forms of the Roman Mass.
There may be a point, also, about peer pressure. If only 2 or 3 young people attend an A-C church, it may be hard for them to invite their friends along. OTOH, if there's a much larger group at the local char-evo shack, it must surely be easier. Birds of a feather etc.
IJ
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
... Enoch, I agree re the 1920s, but rather feel that in my neck of the woods anyway, Evangelicalism is stuck in a 1950s-1970s mindset and that can only last so long.
Evangeline, I take that point, but this was in the middle of that period! quote:
I pray that there will be new expressions of faith that are appropriate to the early 21st century, that build on Anglo-catholic and Evangelical traditions.
I'd agree if you were to say that existing expressions have become somewhat tired and either complacent or a bit time-serving. It may just be a symptom of age but I think the latter description applies to a lot of what presents itself as 'the Christian music scene'. We need to find new ways of expressing our faith that understands that Christian faith is something that goes a lot deeper than just being a poor imitation of various styles of pop music.
My suspicion is that new monasticism may have something to offer, but the trouble is, that I'm not a young person any more. So it's as hard for me to tell what resonates for them as it was for our parents and grandparents to tell in 1965.
quote:
As far as evangelicalism goes, I find it has intellectual rigor mortis as opposed to intellectual rigour! The worst part about that is that they still cling to the notion that they are intellectual when they're really unable to think for themselves and stuck in an 1850s mindset.
Evangeline, I think you've got the wrong date there. It might have been fair comment about evangelicalism in 1950. It might even be a fair criticism of some of the odder areas of evangelical theology now. But in the 1960s it had suddenly developed into quite an intellectually and spiritually stimulating alternative to both 1950s South Bank theology and the shallowness and facile optimism of secular sixties trendiness.
The trouble for me now, is that although my own grandchildren happen to be younger, when the typical teenager looks at me, they don't even see their parents. They see their grandparents. I can say what would have had no appeal for me when I was their age. Anglo-Catholicism as it has habitually been throughout my lifetime certainly fills that bucket. It's a very hard exercise, though, for me to imagine what will reach people who are that age now.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Sadly, Enoch, I think you're right.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
....their camping trip to Walsingham....
I always had the impression that most trips to Walsingham were camping trips, one way or another.
Posted by TomM (# 4618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
I'm not going to dispute the accuracy of this claim, but I've only ever seen it backed up by anecdote. Is there any data available?
And is it growth by transfer, or from outside?
And is it happening anywhere other than in the USA/the English speaking world? (France?)
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
....their camping trip to Walsingham....
I always had the impression that most trips to Walsingham were camping trips, one way or another.
I don't know what you're implying. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
....their camping trip to Walsingham....
I always had the impression that most trips to Walsingham were camping trips, one way or another.
That gets a ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on
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Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Evangeline, I think you've got the wrong date there. It might have been fair comment about evangelicalism in 1950. It might even be a fair criticism of some of the odder areas of evangelical theology now. But in the 1960s it had suddenly developed into quite an intellectually and spiritually stimulating alternative to both 1950s South Bank theology and the shallowness and facile optimism of secular sixties trendiness.
The trouble for me now, is that although my own grandchildren happen to be younger, when the typical teenager looks at me, they don't even see their parents. They see their grandparents. I can say what would have had no appeal for me when I was their age. Anglo-Catholicism as it has habitually been throughout my lifetime certainly fills that bucket. It's a very hard exercise, though, for me to imagine what will reach people who are that age now. [/QB]
My date was a slightly random, probably exaggerated one reflecting my own strange little corner of evangelical weirdness in Sydney. There is certainly a lot of Evangelical scholarship around, I just find much of it is failing to engage with the 21st century. THat's not to say that other traditions are necessarily doing any better. Sometimes as I sit in lectures at my evo bible college I think that much of it is stuck in a post-Enlightenment world, of we're going to be "rational" and explain everything as though religion is a science rather than the strange, metaphysical notion of people relating to God and vice versa.
It's also a long time since I was a teenager but I think it behoves church leadership and for that matter, all with an interest in the survival of Christianity to think about how we can help young people engage with faith.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
How great is that? It's a difficult thing to do something like that without it being either excruciatingly embarrassing or nastily tongue in cheek & what a good sport the priest at the end is, totally uncomfortable but taking part, LOL.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
How great is that? It's a difficult thing to do something like that without it being either excruciatingly embarrassing or nastily tongue in cheek & what a good sport the priest at the end is, totally uncomfortable but taking part, LOL.
I believe he's their Bishop?
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
How great is that? It's a difficult thing to do something like that without it being either excruciatingly embarrassing or nastily tongue in cheek & what a good sport the priest at the end is, totally uncomfortable but taking part, LOL.
I believe he's their Bishop?
Yeah, I guess he would be in purple. See I live in Sydney and these things just pass me by. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
I admit, this choked me up. I thought it was touching and funny. Thanks for re-posting it.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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I did a brief stint in youth ministry at an Episcopal church that was not necessarily Anglo-Catholic, but certainly further up the candle both theologically and liturgically than suburban churches with similarly sized youth groups.
One of the challenges was that a lot of the materials that were published for youth ministry, at least in the States, came from non-denominational evangelical groups. That tended to color the way that a lot of youth groups operated, and the way that the diocesan events happened. There would be a praise band which sang songs from Christian radio, and the biggest emotional moment was the opportunity to pray with one of the leaders and ask for a closer personal relationship with Jesus.
Our kids hated it. Well, they loved the swimming pool and disc golf course at the camp where the event happened (don't think that AC kids won't want to play games), but they were always conspicuously hiding in the corner, a little uncomfortable with the crying and hand waiving around us.
The model they were used to was the camp that our church put on ever summer. That model involved daily morning prayer, nightly compline, and several Eucharists throughout the week, woven throughout long days of games, crafts, lessons, and quite a few food fights. They weren't always excited about praying that much, but if we ever doubted that they got anything out of it, we got our answer when they pulled us aside at a diocesan event and asked to say compline together.
So I would say that there are opportunities, you just sometimes have to make up your own materials, because the charismatic Evangelical model is such a huge presence that it sometimes gets treated as the only way.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
I'm not going to dispute the accuracy of this claim, but I've only ever seen it backed up by anecdote. Is there any data available?
And is it growth by transfer, or from outside?
And is it happening anywhere other than in the USA/the English speaking world? (France?)
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/11/for-record-latest-fssp-statistics.html
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s...
I'm not particularly comfortable with this sentiment.
(By which I mean "I think this is completely untrue"!)
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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An Englishman, Bob Jackson, has written a lot about church growth. He says that there is no evidence that young people shy away from formal liturgical worship - and in fact what the evidence there is is in the opposite direction.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s...
I'm not particularly comfortable with this sentiment.
(By which I mean "I think this is completely untrue"!)
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
GeeD I'll try to find that author.
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s...
I'm not particularly comfortable with this sentiment.
(By which I mean "I think this is completely untrue"!)
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
GeeD I'll try to find that author.
Depends on how you define "young" - Pusey House and Mary Mags in Oxford do very well with the 18-21s, but then I suppose that is Oxford...
Pusey House did it in my time (previous decade really) by fostering a sense of routine and community - daily mass, weekly supper club followed by compline and benediction, Stuckey Coles society for cocktails and parties, Holy Week Triduum retreat at Ascot Priory, excellent choir, New English Hymnal, sherry after high mass on a Sunday (champagne in the summer). I mean, very Oxford, but they were getting it right for their location and constituency....
Personally, they had me at no sharing of the peace beyond "and also with you."
[ 29. November 2016, 04:54: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s...
I'm not particularly comfortable with this sentiment.
(By which I mean "I think this is completely untrue"!)
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
GeeD I'll try to find that author.
Depends on how you define "young" - Pusey House and Mary Mags in Oxford do very well with the 18-21s, but then I suppose that is Oxford...
Pusey House did it in my time (previous decade really) by fostering a sense of routine and community - daily mass, weekly supper club followed by compline and benediction, Stuckey Coles society for cocktails and parties, Holy Week Triduum retreat at Ascot Priory, excellent choir, New English Hymnal, sherry after high mass on a Sunday (champagne in the summer). I mean, very Oxford, but they were getting it right for their location and constituency....
Personally, they had me at no sharing of the peace beyond "and also with you."
Haha, interesting. Community is definitely a big thing & a sense of holiness I'm thinking. I'm liking the alcohol theme too, although not considered kosher round these parts. In an Australian context, maybe a barbie 'n' beers after high mass. Just doesn't have the same ring to it does it?
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Particularly given what passes for beer in Australia ... Although I'm told that things are beginning to improve ...
On the issue of young adults and liturgical forms of worship, I keep hearing that teens and 20 somethings aren't indifferent to it, but I've never seen any evidence of that with my own eyes.
I'm sure it might be different in Oxford or in cathedral cities, but I've not seen it. I've heard in the Chester Diocese that the only significant groups of teens or young adults are exclusively involved with the more evangelical parishes, in what is a largely evangelical/MoTR diocese.
Posted by TomM (# 4618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
I'm not going to dispute the accuracy of this claim, but I've only ever seen it backed up by anecdote. Is there any data available?
And is it growth by transfer, or from outside?
And is it happening anywhere other than in the USA/the English speaking world? (France?)
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/11/for-record-latest-fssp-statistics.html
In the context of the Catholic Church as a whole, 262 priests isn't particularly significant. And nothing in there says anything about growth in congregations. Being only a priestly body, FSSP data will not do that.
In comparison, many Church of England dioceses that ordain about the same number each year (15ish) continue to have attendance graphs that look like cliffs. (Shallow cliffs granted, but decline all the same).
The point remains unproven.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Particularly given what passes for beer in Australia ... Although I'm told that things are beginning to improve ...
On the issue of young adults and liturgical forms of worship, I keep hearing that teens and 20 somethings aren't indifferent to it, but I've never seen any evidence of that with my own eyes.
I'm sure it might be different in Oxford or in cathedral cities, but I've not seen it. I've heard in the Chester Diocese that the only significant groups of teens or young adults are exclusively involved with the more evangelical parishes, in what is a largely evangelical/MoTR diocese.
Same here. All the liturgical churches have congregations with an average age in the 60s or higher and anyone under 50 really sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps it's different elsewhere, but it's interesting that your experience matches mine.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
I'm not going to dispute the accuracy of this claim, but I've only ever seen it backed up by anecdote. Is there any data available?
And is it growth by transfer, or from outside?
And is it happening anywhere other than in the USA/the English speaking world? (France?)
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/11/for-record-latest-fssp-statistics.html
In the context of the Catholic Church as a whole, 262 priests isn't particularly significant. And nothing in there says anything about growth in congregations. Being only a priestly body, FSSP data will not do that.
In comparison, many Church of England dioceses that ordain about the same number each year (15ish) continue to have attendance graphs that look like cliffs. (Shallow cliffs granted, but decline all the same).
The point remains unproven.
When considered from the standpoint of growth of a movement, one notices that the Fraternity, in just over 25 years since its founding, grown from a dozen priests and twenty seminarians to a couple hundred of each, with another dozen ordinations next year, and plenty more on the way. Quite significantly, the average age of their priests is only 38. They built the first all-new, full-sized, from-the-ground-up seminary in North America in many decades. Few other orders could boast anything even remotely resembling this, in a comparable time. And the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest is also doing well--another entity that started from scratch. Both orders have continually increased the number of dioceses in which they have a presence, and the number of apostolates they have. Both orders regularly train diocesan priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass, and the number of locations where the old rite is celebrated has increased every year since the 1990s. Like all but the very largest orders, their numbers are small, relative to the entire Church, but their continual and significant growth is most notable.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've heard in the Chester Diocese that the only significant groups of teens or young adults are exclusively involved with the more evangelical parishes, in what is a largely evangelical/MoTR diocese.
Same here. All the liturgical churches have congregations with an average age in the 60s or higher and anyone under 50 really sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps it's different elsewhere, but it's interesting that your experience matches mine.
It's more a question of demographics than churchmanship. Most parishes round here are more or less 'evangelical', but few of them attract many under-30s. Some inner city churches are struggling on with a dozen or so 60+ year olds; some of the more affluent suburban ones attract parents with school-age children (mainly to secure school places). The three churches I know best, with a rather different demographic, include along with the oldies a significant proportion of 20 and 30 year olds. (The three being respectively, low-liberalish, and two 'liberal catholic', one being more 'liberal' and the other being more 'catholic'.)
I would like to be reassured that there are some evangelical churches attracting significant numbers of young people in working class parishes, rather than appealing exclusively, HTB style. to professionals.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
When considered from the standpoint of growth of a movement, one notices that the Fraternity, in just over 25 years since its founding, grown from a dozen priests and twenty seminarians to a couple hundred of each, with another dozen ordinations next year, and plenty more on the way. Quite significantly, the average age of their priests is only 38. They built the first all-new, full-sized, from-the-ground-up seminary in North America in many decades. Few other orders could boast anything even remotely resembling this, in a comparable time. And the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest is also doing well--another entity that started from scratch. Both orders have continually increased the number of dioceses in which they have a presence, and the number of apostolates they have. Both orders regularly train diocesan priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass, and the number of locations where the old rite is celebrated has increased every year since the 1990s. Like all but the very largest orders, their numbers are small, relative to the entire Church, but their continual and significant growth is most notable.
Yes but like the Ordinariate this seems very clergy-driven. (The Ordinariate is extremely top-heavy with a tiny proportion of lay people to clergy.) What about the people?
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's more a question of demographics than churchmanship.
I would also agree with this. The kids at the youth group I mentioned above were mostly baptized and raised at that church. My present church is closer to what you would consider Anglo-Catholic, and we have the beginnings of a youth program, consisting of kids who have been going to our church since they were really little. We made a commitment to being more welcoming to families by offering Sunday morning nursery and godly play, and inviting the kids to participate in worship, and it eventually lead to a youth program. Speaking as a parent of a toddler, this kind of stuff is hugely important. If the nursery at my church wasn't as good as it is, I might have considered moving on by now, and taken one future youth group member with me.
If you don't make it easy for parents to attend your church, they aren't going to.
[ 29. November 2016, 14:02: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
When considered from the standpoint of growth of a movement, one notices that the Fraternity, in just over 25 years since its founding, grown from a dozen priests and twenty seminarians to a couple hundred of each, with another dozen ordinations next year, and plenty more on the way. Quite significantly, the average age of their priests is only 38. They built the first all-new, full-sized, from-the-ground-up seminary in North America in many decades. Few other orders could boast anything even remotely resembling this, in a comparable time. And the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest is also doing well--another entity that started from scratch. Both orders have continually increased the number of dioceses in which they have a presence, and the number of apostolates they have. Both orders regularly train diocesan priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass, and the number of locations where the old rite is celebrated has increased every year since the 1990s. Like all but the very largest orders, their numbers are small, relative to the entire Church, but their continual and significant growth is most notable.
Yes but like the Ordinariate this seems very clergy-driven. (The Ordinariate is extremely top-heavy with a tiny proportion of lay people to clergy.) What about the people?
What about them? They are sufficient enough in every apostolate. Weddings and baptisms far outnumber funerals. Newcomers in nearly every apostolate routinely comment about how young the congregation is. Growth is taking place in nearly every parish and community. It is a tiny portion of the whole Church,but the movement's success is certainly admirable.
Posted by TomM (# 4618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
When considered from the standpoint of growth of a movement, one notices that the Fraternity, in just over 25 years since its founding, grown from a dozen priests and twenty seminarians to a couple hundred of each, with another dozen ordinations next year, and plenty more on the way. Quite significantly, the average age of their priests is only 38. They built the first all-new, full-sized, from-the-ground-up seminary in North America in many decades. Few other orders could boast anything even remotely resembling this, in a comparable time. And the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest is also doing well--another entity that started from scratch. Both orders have continually increased the number of dioceses in which they have a presence, and the number of apostolates they have. Both orders regularly train diocesan priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass, and the number of locations where the old rite is celebrated has increased every year since the 1990s. Like all but the very largest orders, their numbers are small, relative to the entire Church, but their continual and significant growth is most notable.
Yes but like the Ordinariate this seems very clergy-driven. (The Ordinariate is extremely top-heavy with a tiny proportion of lay people to clergy.) What about the people?
What about them? They are sufficient enough in every apostolate. Weddings and baptisms far outnumber funerals. Newcomers in nearly every apostolate routinely comment about how young the congregation is. Growth is taking place in nearly every parish and community. It is a tiny portion of the whole Church,but the movement's success is certainly admirable.
I refer you back to my original question. Are there any figures?
I have come across many assertions, as you make here, and anecdotes about how such and such a congregation is doing. But what about proper statistics about laity?
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
:
Are you asking how many attend the Traditional Latin Mass each week? Not sure that I can answer that any more than one can say how many attend Spanish Mass each week, or Mass without any music, or concelebrated Masses. I can assure you that the growth of the movement exists because each year more people begin attending. Here is a listing of the known regularly scheduled TLM: http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm
From both a spiritual and an objective perspective, the growth of the movement, both lay and clerical, in such a short time, is quite impressive. I'm not asking to you or anyone here to attend a TLM, or support the movement. I had merely remarked, as one very involved in the movement, that young people abound at nearly every Mass listed in the link above, in contrast to the somewhat outdated perception that young people desire guitar Masses, Lifeteen-style liturgy, and the like. The reason that there are so many young FSSP and ICRSS priests now is precisely because they began attending TLM as laypeople, and then entered the seminary. Most FSSP priests are a product of FSSP parish life and seminary formation. Priests are infrequently admitted from other institutes or dioceses.
Yet, like many, rather than remarking how wonderful it is that an increasing number of people are having their spiritual needs met through traditional liturgy, catechesis and devotional life, some choose to pick at numbers, tacitly suggesting that the movement is, after all, small potatoes, numerically speaking, or is really all about priestly life, and not lay. These are risible responses, especially the latter, because they exhibit a bias toward a movement that has grown much more rapidly than nearly any other such group. No need to join the movement, but please do recognize and give credit where it is due. This will be my last post on this particular matter.
[ 29. November 2016, 20:21: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on
:
It is indeed anecdotal, but I can corroborate that most TLM celebrations I have assisted at were well populated with young families, newlyweds, and (ahem) single men.
Posted by TomM (# 4618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Are you asking how many attend the Traditional Latin Mass each week? Not sure that I can answer that any more than one can say how many attend Spanish Mass each week, or Mass without any music, or concelebrated Masses. I can assure you that the growth of the movement exists because each year more people begin attending. Here is a listing of the known regularly scheduled TLM: http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm
From both a spiritual and an objective perspective, the growth of the movement, both lay and clerical, in such a short time, is quite impressive. I'm not asking to you or anyone here to attend a TLM, or support the movement. I had merely remarked, as one very involved in the movement, that young people abound at nearly every Mass listed in the link above, in contrast to the somewhat outdated perception that young people desire guitar Masses, Lifeteen-style liturgy, and the like. The reason that there are so many young FSSP and ICRSS priests now is precisely because they began attending TLM as laypeople, and then entered the seminary. Most FSSP priests are a product of FSSP parish life and seminary formation. Priests are infrequently admitted from other institutes or dioceses.
Yet, like many, rather than remarking how wonderful it is that an increasing number of people are having their spiritual needs met through traditional liturgy, catechesis and devotional life, some choose to pick at numbers, tacitly suggesting that the movement is, after all, small potatoes, numerically speaking, or is really all about priestly life, and not lay. These are risible responses, especially the latter, because they exhibit a bias toward a movement that has grown much more rapidly than nearly any other such group. No need to join the movement, but please do recognize and give credit where it is due. This will be my last post on this particular matter.
I for one am not intending to criticise at all. I think there is much to be gained from the renewal of the liturgical life of the Church that would either use of or draw from older traditions than have come to dominate in many places.
In a lot of commentary, and some of the initial comments about it in this thread, suggest (either explicitly or implicitly) that the restoration of more traditional liturgy is the way to engage a typically detached cohort with the Church.
To determine how true that is, or whether it is some other aspect that is attracting people some consideration of how effective it is, and in what circumstances is necessary. Whilst correlation does not equal causality, knowing what correlations exist surely helps with formulating some hypotheses. Otherwise, we are left with our own anecdotal experience, which might mean we have a full church, but it has come largely at the expense to the parish up the road, not by winning anyone new to the Kingdom.
[ 30. November 2016, 08:51: Message edited by: TomM ]
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
I share many of TomM's concerns. It does seem to me that groups that see their main reason to exist as to represent a better version of the truth as they see it to the rest of the church - or which look like that to others - are much more likely to win their following from dissatisfied existing churchgoers, than to be converting the unchurched. It suspect that's just as likely to be true of Latin Mass Catholics as it is of many independent freelance groups.
It would be encouraging to be persuaded I'm wrong, but it would be nice to see evidence.
Also, incidentally, although I'm not RC and so don't actually know, I get the impression that in the country where I am (England) Latin Mass Catholicism as a movement rather than an occasional event for the nostalgic hasn't got a a great deal of traction.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Yes, that's how it seems to me too, Enoch.
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
I "selectively quoted" because the quote I selected is the part with which I'm uncomfortable. I was not posting to answer the question you pose, but to observe that I think the idea that "the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s" strikes me as wrong, based as it is on the implication that there is some sort of "standard model" of teenager/U25.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
I "selectively quoted" because the quote I selected is the part with which I'm uncomfortable. I was not posting to answer the question you pose, but to observe that I think the idea that "the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s" strikes me as wrong, based as it is on the implication that there is some sort of "standard model" of teenager/U25.
I don't think it has to be based on that at all. However, there might be some attributes that are more correlated with the younger age group and it's valid to ask what might be more attractive to people displaying those attributes, which are more likely to be found in younger age groups. No-one's saying that every younger person displays those attributes, but that a younger person, on average, is more likely to.
For example, I think it's fairly uncontroversial to suggest that Justin Bieber is more popular amongst under 25s than he is with over 50s. That a given Justin Bieber fan is disproportionately likely to be under 25 than would be predicted from demographics alone, and that a given under 25 is more likely to like Justin Bieber than his popularity in the population as a whole would predict. That does not mean that everyone under 25 likes Justin Bieber (God help us!) nor that all his fans are under 25.
[ 30. November 2016, 14:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Also, incidentally, although I'm not RC and so don't actually know, I get the impression that in the country where I am (England) Latin Mass Catholicism as a movement rather than an occasional event for the nostalgic hasn't got a a great deal of traction.
Partly because the RC hierarchy in England has done everything they could to prevent the Extraordinary Form from gaining traction.
And partly because Catholicism in England has a very different character than it does in the US.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
Thanks Karl, couldn't have put it better myself.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
:
Hi guys,
The discussion of the popularity of the Extraordinary Form/Tridentine Mass is becoming a bit of a tangent. I see how it can be relevant to discussing the appeal of churches with such liturgical practices, but it has probably run its course now.
Back to our scheduled discussion?
dj_ordinaire, Ecclesiantics host
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:That does not mean that everyone under 25 likes Justin Bieber (God help us!) nor that all his fans are under 25.
Equally, and more importantly in terms of my concern, the fact that U25s might be more likely to like Justin Bieber doesn't mean either that the U25s do not like anything that isn't Justin Bieber. Some of them will like different purveyors of "rock and roll (and other children's music)" and some of them will like Elgar, some of them will like Bach, some of them will like Hildegard of Bingen and some will all three of those whilst still liking Justin Bieber.
My discomfort is not with the suggestion that U25s are demographically more likely to enjoy such music; I am uncomfortable with:
(a) the idea that U25s like (say) Bieber and therefore do not like anything other than (say) Bieber and
(b) the idea that the "evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive" to the U25s because some evangelical churches might offer music in the style of (say) Bieber.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:That does not mean that everyone under 25 likes Justin Bieber (God help us!) nor that all his fans are under 25.
Equally, and more importantly in terms of my concern, the fact that U25s might be more likely to like Justin Bieber doesn't mean either that the U25s do not like anything that isn't Justin Bieber. Some of them will like different purveyors of "rock and roll (and other children's music)" and some of them will like Elgar, some of them will like Bach, some of them will like Hildegard of Bingen and some will all three of those whilst still liking Justin Bieber.
My discomfort is not with the suggestion that U25s are demographically more likely to enjoy such music; I am uncomfortable with:
(a) the idea that U25s like (say) Bieber and therefore do not like anything other than (say) Bieber and
(b) the idea that the "evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive" to the U25s because some evangelical churches might offer music in the style of (say) Bieber.
To say that the evangelical church SEEMS better suited or more attractive to the U25s is to speak in generalities, surely you see this done elsewhere. To say that leaving the EU is more attractive to those in low SES areas doesn't mean that every person in a low SES area wanted to leave the SES, it is talking about a population trend, not about each and every individual in a population.
As for point B where on earth do you get the idea that anybody on this thread has put forward the idea that evangelical churches are more attractive because of the style of music they offer? Karl's example of Bieber had nothing to do with church music offerings but was trying to illustrate how demographic trends might be understood.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:That does not mean that everyone under 25 likes Justin Bieber (God help us!) nor that all his fans are under 25.
Equally, and more importantly in terms of my concern, the fact that U25s might be more likely to like Justin Bieber doesn't mean either that the U25s do not like anything that isn't Justin Bieber. Some of them will like different purveyors of "rock and roll (and other children's music)" and some of them will like Elgar, some of them will like Bach, some of them will like Hildegard of Bingen and some will all three of those whilst still liking Justin Bieber.
My discomfort is not with the suggestion that U25s are demographically more likely to enjoy such music; I am uncomfortable with:
(a) the idea that U25s like (say) Bieber and therefore do not like anything other than (say) Bieber and
(b) the idea that the "evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive" to the U25s because some evangelical churches might offer music in the style of (say) Bieber.
That's the first time I've heard an implication that Justin Bieber is Rock and Roll. Though I appreciate the Lehrer reference.
[ 02. December 2016, 08:37: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
To say that the evangelical church SEEMS better suited or more attractive to the U25s is to speak in generalities, surely you see this done elsewhere.
As for point B where on earth do you get the idea that anybody on this thread has put forward the idea that evangelical churches are more attractive because of the style of music they offer? Karl's example of Bieber had nothing to do with church music offerings but was trying to illustrate how demographic trends might be understood.
Where on earth do you get the idea that I've put forward the idea that Karl's example was about church music offerings? You spoke of generalities; Karl illustrated the point using an example that deals in the generalities; I continued the use of the example in generalities. Surely you see this done elsewhere?
My discomfort is with the generalisation itself. The generality is pointless because it's generality. I'm uncomfortable with the generalisation the idea that U25s like one particular form of "anything" and therefore don't like any other form of "anything". I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the "evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive" to the U25s because the evangelical church offers "anything" that U25s like and other churches don't. Your opening post may have been an attempt to get away from the generalisations about the "anything" that churches offer, but it does so based on a generalisation about the U25s.
ETA: Karl - I'm always glad when somebody recognises the reference!
[ 02. December 2016, 12:57: Message edited by: Teekeey Misha ]
Posted by DonLogan2 (# 15608) on
:
Sorry to make it easier for me I have just cut and pasted this so I hope it makes sense.
“So I have been having discussions with some clergy around youth programs and keeping children in church. One particular issue that came up was in nose bleed high Anglican churches how do you make(keep?) that relevant to young people?”
-----------------------
Young people (YP) are like anyone else, an individual and as such if you use a good program you will strike a chord with some and not others.
Regarding the second part, if the YP have come through this style of worship then they have an adoptive faith, as they reach (generalisation alert) 10-12 years old the way they think changes and they start to understand concepts better and will question things, this is where they will most likely falter. They have enough pain at school to deal with from all the peer pressures that are thrown at them having to defend their parents’ choice is something they will not want to do as it is easier to conform to the norm, something they also do at church. My idea would be to let the nose bleed get worse and let the patient expire (kidding….slightly). Yes it is to do with relevance, but they need to own their own faith not to wear their parents` hand me downs. There is no silver bullet fix for this, each youth group will be different but have commonalities. The YP I work with (please understand the language I just used) have been allowed to ask questions that have baffled them about the things they learn about the Bible at church/home and school. We also look at things that happen in the media and try to find something in the Bible that covers that aspect, and soon we will be looking at pornography (major can o` worms).
-----------------------------
“I'm not from quite that high a tradition but do acknowledge that the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s.
Will Anglo-catholic churches die out from "lack of relevance to young people"?”
-------------------------------------
No they need to adapt, or dare I say, evolve!
------------------------------
“Does anybody have any examples of such churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?”
If high church (goers) do not want to adapt their practices then they will die out and the blood will be on their own hands, high church and in particular its liturgy was not the same as 1st C Asia church, and it therefore cannot stay the same for eternity. I struggle with this in the church I attend (CoS, low but not horizontal), the YP enjoy learning about God by sitting around questioning things and those (generalisation alert) who attend the “adult” service would be horrified to even think about learning about God by sitting around and questioning things. If they want “their” church to carry on and the YP to eventually be seated next to them, then someone has to change. Both groups that is; the YP have to accept that there will be some absorption of liturgical methods(ology) and so must the oldies.
Get a good YW would be a starting point.
Try little keisen steps when changing things, accept you will lose people and don`t get discouraged.
Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on
:
Meanwhile in rural Scotland...
I run our kirk youth group. There are about 8 of them, which isn't bad. Our wee village kirk has a congregation of about 60 on a Sunday morning, and so 8 nine to fourteen year olds and a bunch of younger children is a reasonable ratio.
My main planning problem is that they have other things to do half the time. If they go to a friend's house on Saturday night they don't come to church on Sunday morning. If they go away to Grannie's at the weekend, play rugby, take part in the local children's theatre or just sleep in they miss church. The youth group can be 8 children of widely varying ages one week and then for three or four weeks just three or two; occasionally one. If there aren't many there I give them the choice to either stay in church with their parents or do something relevant one on one. Our set up and the fact that the parents can see us in our room under the balcony makes this possible.
Music is a great thing for our young people. They almost all have some form of musical education and several of them sing in choirs, including classical choral music. They love the beautiful hymns and the strong tradition of classical music in our kirk. I'm not musical enough to get them singing together in Youth Group, but they do engage with the hymns and songs in church.
They love games and food and watching film clips together so I use these elements in our group sessions. They like to take part in church services, and most of them if offered the chance will read aloud.
I always use the Bible and get them to look things up by book, chapter and verse. I make sure they all have their own Bible. An eleven year old boy in our group told me he's been reading Revelation with his friend who attends another church.
We always pray together at some point in our session. We use a really simple model: tsp, standing for thank you, sorry, please. We rarely use pre-written or liturgical prayer, but the children like the odd bit of that. Maybe we should use more.
Over time we've seen a few young people grow up and take their talents and faith elsewhere. I'm in touch with some of them on Facebook; others are away in the USA and Kenya with their families and we only see them occasionally.
Cattyish, planning tomorrow's Epiphany drama with the help of a plastic Roman Soldier's helmet and a fake beard.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Our Place (A-C back street UPA parish) has a large and flourishing Scouts/Cubs/Beavers/Squirrels group(s) affiliated unto us (100+ Kidz, AFAIK).
They come to church 4 times a year, is all - Mothering Sunday, Sea Sunday (dockside parish), Harvest Festival, Christingle Service - though the majority attending are Beavers/Cubs. I'd love to involve them in church more often, and there is a great deal of goodwill between church and leaders, but, as cattyish says, they simply have so much else on at weekends.
We also have a monthly Saturday afternoon/early evening 'Crafty Church/Youth Club' for 7s-12s, which can have up to 20+ Kidz attending. There is some overlap with Beavers etc., but for quite a few of the Kidz, this is their only experience of 'church'. Those responsible for 'Crafty Church' are now considering how to involve parents etc. in the activities and worship as well. It's a bit like Messy Church, only older (and tidier).
On top of this, we offer 'Sunday School' to any Kidz attending the Parish Mass, and now and then we can get up to 6-8 under 16s (even though our ASA has dropped this last year to 25 or so.... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
)
Given our limited human resources, this is about as much as we can do at the moment, though there is clearly scope for more. One young lass of 11, who attends on 2-3 Sundays a month, is doing very well as a server and reader...
IJ
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
O, I forgot to say - apart from the occasional student, we only have 2 teenagers attending at all regularly. A third has just started at Oxford, so we now only see her at vacation time.
To a certain extent, this mirrors the current demographics of our parish - the majority group is made up of young families with pre-teen (mostly) children. I think this needs to be borne in mind - there may be few young people at your church, simply because there are few young people on your patch!
IJ
Posted by DonLogan2 (# 15608) on
:
Just to add; today I am getting together with whoever turns up and trying to get them to plan their own programme of events and learning outcomes. I`m also hoping that some will be back from their hols as I do miss seeing them and learning from them
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
... they simply have so much else on at weekends ...
Clearly this is true, but ...
(a) I think it is increasingly hard to see children/YP regularly in church unless their parents attend too - especially true if they live distant from church and there is no decent Sunday public transport. Even those within walking distance will find it difficult to get up and out if that's not what the rest of the family are doing.
(b) I suspect that a lot of parents see Scouts etc. as a primarily weeknight thing (with the occasional weekend camp); thy don't think of it as a "church" activity but as "something that takes place in the local church hall". (This is also true to for Boys' and Girls' Brigades IME, even though they are explicitly Christian).
(c) While Sundays are indeed "busy" days for many families (and we have lost families from our church because of this), we must also look critically at the quality and interest of the Sunday activities we are offering to children and YP. A Bible story and some colouring-in are not enough (and may be woefully babyish anyway). As others have said, the key seems to be meaningful interaction.
Posted by DonLogan2 (# 15608) on
:
Everyone has a lot to do on a Sunday, which for me asks the question; "Why do we need to have worship on a Sunday?"
Tradition mainly, this I think is important. The YP who attend with there parents on a Sunday come from areas up to 8 miles away and therefore go to different schools. YP will generally mix well, but it is hard for them to engage meaningly if they do not know each other well. I asked them if they wanted to get together as a group during the week and they did, this led to a group of their friends who do not have any attachment to any church also coming along. Yes it is church lite© but it relational and the group can now discuss the various topics on a Sunday by posing and answering difficult questions as they know each other better.
Perhaps we should negotiate the day we worship?
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