|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Nicene Creed as worship
|
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
Closer to God? I'm not sure. I do value it as part of binding the church together. There is a sense of uplift and renewed purpose in saying the ancient words united with Christians throughout time and all over the world. It is the starting point of Christian witness - the admission, the declaration, that I Believe. I certainly notice its absence from worship when it's not there (as is often the case in my local Church of Scotland where the Eucharist is celebrated 4-5 times a year), and it is a joy to either be able to participate when I get the opportunity.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I'm interested in people's experience of the Nicene Creed as an act of worship. What do you (for lack of a better phrase) "get out of" it? What does it mean to you in terms of taking part in the mystery of God? Does it enhance your relationship with God? Does it just feel like reciting a laundry list of doctrines? Any responses along these lines would be appreciated.
[pedantry]I suspect very few people have experience of the Nicene Creed in worship. This creed essentially dealt with issues of Christology, giving only a passing nod to the Holy Spirit, and, from memory, nothing at all about the Church and the eschaton.[/pedantry]
To answer you more seriously, though, I find it incredibly beneficial for all of the reasons detailed by Arethosemyfeet. In most Orthodox rites (eastern and some western), the Symbol of Faith is part of the Liturgy of the Faithful rather than the Liturgy of the Catechumens as it is in most western liturgies today.
Liturgically, it isn't understood as a faith response to the scriptural readings, as in certain western rites. Rather, it's the opportunity for each one of us individually to claim our part in the communal affirmation of those things that bind us together, that unite us in the communion that is about to be actualised in our communal offering of the Eucharist and actually taking full part in the sacramental, mystical Body of Christ.
When we sing the Symbol, we are singing our faith and our unity, (especially in churches of Slavic tradition, where the church comes alive with the voices of people who might have been silent for the entire remainder of the service).
There's also the fact that affirming our common faith prior to offering and receiving the Body and Blood of the Saviour shows our continuity of faith and practice with all who have gone before us. When we look at St Justin Martyr's first apology, written in the middle of the 2nd century, we see the same principle:
quote:
Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at his hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying: "Amen!". This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it].
And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.
And this food is called among us Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of his word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the Flesh and Blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.
I would severely miss it if it weren't there.
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
The Lutherans get the Nicene Creed pretty much every time we have communion, which varies from twice monthly to every Sunday.
I like it because it focuses my attention and reminds me of things I've been neglecting to think about.
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
|
Posted
Lamb Chopped wrote:
quote:
The Lutherans get the Nicene Creed pretty much every time we have communion, which varies from twice monthly to every Sunday.
Depends on the Lutherans. The Finnish Lutheran Church uses the Apostles' Creed as its default – the Nicene is extremely rare in their liturgies: I'm sure most Finnish Lutherans have never encountered it.
--------------------
keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
The worst answer I heard from a person proudly claiming that his church never recited the Creed is "Well, we don't tell people what to believe in our church."
Forgetting of course, that theology of the liturgy is not simply found in the Creeds.
In worship, the Creed is where we confess the faith of the Church. We may individually quibble over whether or not we literally believe in this clause or this clause, but as a corporate community of faith, saying the creed anchors the local church in a universal tradition. It is saying "I may struggle or question this or that of the story, but nonetheless THIS is the story I struggle and identify with."
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I'm interested in people's experience of the Nicene Creed as an act of worship. What do you (for lack of a better phrase) "get out of" it? What does it mean to you in terms of taking part in the mystery of God? Does it enhance your relationship with God? Does it just feel like reciting a laundry list of doctrines? Any responses along these lines would be appreciated.
Interesting questions, because if you start to ask them of every single part of the service, other than the Eucharist itself, they just don't "fit." What do I "get out of" the Lord's prayer? How does singing Old 100 enhance my relationship with God? Are the Prayers of the People just a laundry list of requests?
Before I can answer I would want to ask, what do you expect one should get out of reciting the Creed? Indeed, why should one expect to get anything out of reciting the Creed? Indeed, is worship about what we GET or about what we GIVE?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
Reciting creeds was not part of my faith tradition, and on the odd occasion they are said in my current church I find the Nicene Creed more of a harking back to a time when control and exclusivity was required. I find My Seen Creed more useful to meditate on in these times of inter-faith dialogue.
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
What is means to me and how I feel about it is irrelevant. It is the faith of the church and I am expressing my commitment to the church in reciting it.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]Before I can answer I would want to ask, what do you expect one should get out of reciting the Creed? Indeed, why should one expect to get anything out of reciting the Creed? Indeed, is worship about what we GET or about what we GIVE?
Exactly, which is why I hesitated about the "get" wording. I'm just curious about what other folks here whose liturgy includes regular recitation of the Creed in their worship experience in that act, how they view it only a personal level, not so much the stated theology behind its inclusion in the liturgy. I'm trying to leave the question pretty open-ended.
[ 14. February 2017, 14:25: Message edited by: Al Eluia ]
--------------------
Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
...how they view it only a personal level, not so much the stated theology behind its inclusion in the liturgy.
This distinction doesn't resonate with my experience. My faith is rooted in and nourished by the liturgy - by the worship of God by his people, and my part in it.
I can't imagine a way to describe my personal experience of any element of participation in the life of the Church separately from this.
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I agree with Scrumps.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
I does what I canz. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I remember being part of a spiritual direction course in a certain diocese known for its liberal tendencies. One guest speaker invited us to recite the creed, but to sit down for the bits we didn't personally agree with. Two habited nuns and a priest who happened to be (unusually) wearing his collar that day were among the few to remain standing throughout. The visitor's condescending comments implied that they 'obviously represented the establishment', whereas those who sat down a lot had integrity. I was very uneasy with the whole exercise since it seemed to miss the point of a corporate statement of belief. (To be fair, this was a separate 'exercise' and not part of an act of worship.)
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
One guest speaker invited us to recite the creed, but to sit down for the bits we didn't personally agree with. …The visitor's condescending comments implied that they 'obviously represented the establishment', whereas those who sat down a lot had integrity.
That is
ONE Rude. No responsible teacher would address a pupil in front of their class with such sarcasm.
TWO Literalist. A text has only one level of meaning.
THREE Ignorant. There is no necessary correlation between credal orthodoxy and establishment religion. Indeed the most obviously orthodox doctrinal priest I have known was an enthusiastic socialist, republican and supporter of disestablishment.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
One guest speaker invited us to recite the creed, but to sit down for the bits we didn't personally agree with. …The visitor's condescending comments implied that they 'obviously represented the establishment', whereas those who sat down a lot had integrity.
That is
ONE Rude. No responsible teacher would address a pupil in front of their class with such sarcasm.
TWO Literalist. A text has only one level of meaning.
THREE Ignorant. There is no necessary correlation between credal orthodoxy and establishment religion. Indeed the most obviously orthodox doctrinal priest I have known was an enthusiastic socialist, republican and supporter of disestablishment.
Amen to all three of your points. I actually did something similar once. I gave an adult ed class called "End Times 101 for Episcopalians" in which we talked about notions like the Rapture and the Antichrist. At one point I had people stand at one end of the room, or the other, or anywhere in between, according to how literally they took the idea of a physical return of Christ. It was interesting to see the results and discuss them, but never would I have berated anyone for the position they took.
--------------------
Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
There is a difference.
The Rapture is an opinion (and an untenable and dangerous one to my mind). The Creed (at least for Anglicans such as angloid’s companions) is an unnegotiable given as much as the Bible, however it might be interpreted.
I have to say I’ve been shocked at the number of people here who think it is optional.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Belief in a Rapture and in the physical return of Christ are not remotely similar.
One is a batty opinion based on a misrepresentation of one passage in one epistle, and no part of the tradition once delivered to the saints behind it. The other is a reflection on how one understands both
quote:
"And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead: whose kingdom shall have no end"
and
quote:
"And I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the life of the world to come"
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Just as there are people who can't distinguish the forgiveness of sins (an ancient staple of Christianity) with PSA (an unnecessary innovation), there are people who can't distinguish the Second Coming (an ancient staple) from the Rapture (an even newer innovation).
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
Yesterday's noon mass (of S Polycarp B&M) got us the Nicaean creed, introduced with comments linking Polycarp, disciple of S John the Evangelist, with the apostolic tradition, manifested in the creed of Nicaea which we now etc etc.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
