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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "I don't blame them wanting a lie-in on Sundays"
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
says Church of England adviser.
Feelings of enthusiasm and commitment are gone, says Professor John Mbiti, an adviser to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby.
How has your church reached out to those who get up early each day and want a lie in one day a week? Can spirituality be fulfilled within fewer attendances? How do you balance the needs, wants, of society with the eternal message of salvation and Love and its expression? I'd be loathe to throw out 2000 years of tradition, but what are people's thoughts on services that meet the needs of society, as well as the committed?
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
I do not apologise for having an extra hour in bed on a Sunday morning (rising at 7.30 rather than 6.30). 11.00 am is a civilised hour for worship - allows time for breakfast, walking the dog, Mrs Gwalchmai to get ready etc.
That said, I have on occasion been known to attend the 8.00 am BCP communion.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
An earlier start time seems pastorally sensitive, especially in our day when, due to cultural changes relating to working hours, people are less accustomed to fasting. A late start time on a Sunday would make the communion fast more difficult for a large number of people.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
But a later start time would help our older members who struggle to get themselves ready for a 10.00 start.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Well there's always Evensong at 6pm, if you want a really long lie in.... or a Eucharistic service at another church in the benefice at 11, or the monthly midweek Messy Church at 4pm....
Although there are not many people about early on a Sunday morning, I notice that we compete for space in the car park with an enthusiastic group of cyclists who gather at the same time for an early morning spin. I guess people are always able to get up for things they really want to do.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Our church meets at 4.30 pm - initially because the school we met in was being used by another group in the morning.
When we got our own building we stuck with the time.
We get lots of 20s and 30s age group, and those who have young children bring food and feed them together after the service.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Most churches around here offer either a Saturday or Sunday Eucharist around 5 p.m. Our church has it at 5:00, and it's mostly attended by those who want to sleep in on Sunday morning. It's also good for those who work or have other obligations on Sundays.
(We have two Eucharists on Sunday mornings -- the Saturday service is in addition to, not in place of.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
But a later start time would help our older members who struggle to get themselves ready for a 10.00 start.
Interesting - in every parish I've been associated with, the 8 o'clock or 8h30 service skewed decidedly geriatric.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
But a later start time would help our older members who struggle to get themselves ready for a 10.00 start.
Interesting - in every parish I've been associated with, the 8 o'clock or 8h30 service skewed decidedly geriatric.
The same is true with every church I've known. But saying that that 8 o'clockers are all over 70 is not the same as saying that all people over 70 can (or want to) get up early.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I’m a big fan of Sunday evening services. After a week of being in the office at 8:30 am every day, a weekend sleep-in is the only thing that keeps me functional. I am never at church at 10:00 am unless I have to be.
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
But a later start time would help our older members who struggle to get themselves ready for a 10.00 start.
I was taught (admitedly some years ago now ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ) in an FIEC church that an earlier start allows people to spend the rest of the day in ungodly activities like a drive to the seaside or sleeping. So we stuck with 11am - that'll teach 'em. Really!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Well there's always Evensong at 6pm, if you want a really long lie in.... or a Eucharistic service at another church in the benefice at 11, or the monthly midweek Messy Church at 4pm....
Although there are not many people about early on a Sunday morning, I notice that we compete for space in the car park with an enthusiastic group of cyclists who gather at the same time for an early morning spin. I guess people are always able to get up for things they really want to do.
Some people. If they were churchgoing types they'd be the ones turning up for the service. I stopped going out with my club on Sunday mornings because the 9am start means getting up far earlier than I'm happy to do on a day off. The exact same was true of the 9.15am service. I was terribly pleased when we found somewhere that met at 12.30.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Sunday evening worship has declined so much in Britain over the decades, yet I think it's making a slow comeback as church communities realise that morning worship isn't suitable for everyone. FEs often meet in the afternoon or evening.
I don't know if Switzerland or other European countries are adapting in this way. Rev. John Mbiti seems to be advocating that Sunday morning worship should start later - but if he as a minister and respected theologian can't persuade his congregation to consider adapting their worship times, then who can?
His belief that regular church worship isn't necessary is probably quite common among the mainstream clergy, but they don't usually admit it (or get the chance to admit it) in interviews. One problem with this tendency is that greater burdens then fall on those members who do attend regularly. If you don't know when occasional attenders are going to appear it's harder to arrange for them to participate in things.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
But a later start time would help our older members who struggle to get themselves ready for a 10.00 start.
Interesting - in every parish I've been associated with, the 8 o'clock or 8h30 service skewed decidedly geriatric.
The same is true with every church I've known. But saying that that 8 o'clockers are all over 70 is not the same as saying that all people over 70 can (or want to) get up early.
Personally at the age of 36 the 0800 is what I tend to go for if I'm visiting another town. As most people I stay with aren't churchgoers it means I can slip out for half an hour and then get back before the extended mid-morning breakfast or whatever they've got planned. It's a challenge sometimes with a raging hangover and 4 hours sleep, but if you want it enough....
There's also the angle that with a said eucharist you know exactly what you're going to get (especially as this is often the BCP ghetto), whereas turning up in a strange church for the 10 or 11 o'clock means taking pot luck on hymns/worship songs/praise bands/10 mins of sharing the peace, etc.
Away from home, give me the early shift every time.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Some people. If they were churchgoing types they'd be the ones turning up for the service.
"Some people" is it. We are no longer constrained by daylight, the demands of agriculture, and so on. As a consequence, people are free to adopt a wide range of waking times, particularly on days when work or school do not impose constraints.
For every early bird who is cheerfully chirrupping at dawn, and objects to a long drawn-out wait before the day gets started, there's a bleary-eyed duvet dweller who wants nothing more than an extra hour in his warm snuggly nest.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Every week I hear the bells of the Chapel of Madonna Della Strada start ringing just before 9pm, and I remember (again) that there's a 9pm Mass at Loyola University Chicago. Bells ring at the end, too, promptly at 10pm.
They have a 10.30am Mass, but the most popular Sunday Masses are at 5pm and 9pm. Ah, student life!
Made possible by the one-hour Communion fast rule, no doubt.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
"lie in" isn't a usual term; I am reminded of John and Yoko's Bed-in for Peace in Montreal, 1969.
Of course it is completely reasonable for busy and tired people to sleep on Sunday mornings. It is also clear that church has lost its exclusivity when it comes to matters spiritual. Church is a place where some people find God and some find nothing. There is no felt obligation to go for most people. Thus even if timed differently....
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
"lie in" isn't a usual term;
It is ubiquitous in British English.
A lie-in doesn't necessarily imply sleep: a morning tucked up under the duvet with a cup of tea and the paper or a good book is also a lie-in.
Whereas if you sleep in, the implication is that you're actually asleep.
[ 14. February 2017, 14:20: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
It's also the case that many children and teenagers (and inevitably their parents too, at least fathers) take part in sports activities on Sunday mornings. I don't know why more Anglican churches don't offer a Saturday early evening eucharist.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
"lie in" isn't a usual term;
It is ubiquitous in British English.
A lie-in doesn't necessarily imply sleep: a morning tucked up under the duvet with a cup of tea and the paper or a good book is also a lie-in.
Whereas if you sleep in, the implication is that you're actually asleep.
In Canada , it's an antiquated term for maternal post-birth staying in bed. Sleep-doesn't necessarily imply you're sleeping here.
A- I slept in on Sunday.
B- Were you sleeping?
A- No, we woke up at 6 and read, had coffee.
I realize how odd that sounds.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Some people. If they were churchgoing types they'd be the ones turning up for the service.
"Some people" is it. We are no longer constrained by daylight, the demands of agriculture, and so on. As a consequence, people are free to adopt a wide range of waking times, particularly on days when work or school do not impose constraints.
For every early bird who is cheerfully chirrupping at dawn, and objects to a long drawn-out wait before the day gets started, there's a bleary-eyed duvet dweller who wants nothing more than an extra hour in his warm snuggly nest.
Well yes; I'm a natural Owl and weekends are my one chance to escape the Lark dominated world of work. As from nowish they're starting a new rota at work which will see me starting at 8am some days. This means setting of from home at 7am and frankly it's enough to make me consider changing jobs, it'll be that painful. Yet there are people who are happy to be already at their desk at that ungodly hour!
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
quote:
"Lie in" isn't a usual term;
In Canada , it's an antiquated term for maternal post-birth staying in bed.
That's true in Britain too; but it's so antiquated that no-one would think of it! However this building still exists in London near Waterloo Station, albeit it hasn't been a hospital for years!
[ 14. February 2017, 15:19: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
FEs often meet in the afternoon or evening.
FEs?
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I think it means 'Fresh Expressions' of worship - a C of E/Methodist thingy...
http://www.freshexpressions.org.uk/
A two-church parish in the next town down the motorway used to have the following pattern of Sunday services:
10am Parish Communion in the principal church:
5pm Informal worship (Communion/Family Service/Parade Service or whatever) in the second church. This service was preceded by tea at 415pm.
IIRC, there was also a monthly 8am Communion and monthly 630pm Evensong in one or other of the churches.
The congregations at both services were about the same size (40+), but the afternoon service had the youngest demographic.
It seems, however, that the afternoon service has recently been discontinued, and worship is concentrated on the morning service at the main church - I know not why, but suspect a lack of human resources...
That's not to say that a similar pattern might not work elsewhere, of course, and I agree with Angloid that, at least in some places, a Saturday afternoon Family Eucharist might be worth trying.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Sunday morning is one of the times when couples have sex - doesn't the Church encourage marriage etc.?
Surely every hour of every day is one of the times that couples have sex. Yet most couples manage to make time for other parts of their lives.
We already avoid weddings on Saturdays so that couples can consummate their marriages on their wedding night without concerning themselves with breaking the communion fast. I don't see that moving the Sunday Eucharist is necessary or beneficial.
[ 14. February 2017, 17:17: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Hmm...possibly leo was being ironic? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Regarding the Eucharistic fast, I guess it's pretty strictly adhered to in Orthodoxy, but I beg leave to doubt if it's widely observed by other churches (I'll be happy to be proved wrong - I observed it myself until illness and medications made it, if not impossible, then inadvisable).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Some of our older folk (and families with children) take a long time to get organised in the morning and couldn't possibly get to church any earlier.
Other older folk (and families with children) get up with the lark and would love to get to church earlier.
One size does not fit all.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I think it means 'Fresh Expressions' of worship - a C of E/Methodist thingy...
Thank you.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Just to prove it. One lark who prefers evening worship.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's also the case that many children and teenagers (and inevitably their parents too, at least fathers) take part in sports activities on Sunday mornings. I don't know why more Anglican churches don't offer a Saturday early evening eucharist.
Isn't that what the Catholics do so they can go out late on Saturday Nite and sin as much as they like?! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Must admit that, when I move house, one of the things I'm looking forward to is a Eucharist which starts at 11am.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The mind boggles at the thought of Saturday Nite in Creamtealand.
More seriously, the early services in Sydney Anglican churches are usually called Traditional Services as they follow the 1977 Prayer Book. Over the years, St Sanity has gained older parishioners for whom getting to an 8 am service is very hard; they can come to our 10 and get a 1995 Prayer Book service much more easily, even if it's a bit more of a journey.
[ 15. February 2017, 01:23: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Sunday morning is one of the times when couples have sex.
Only ones who don't have children yet. Or have bedroom door locks.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Sunday morning is one of the times when couples have sex.
Only ones who don't have children yet. Or have bedroom door locks.
Or, traditionally, drop their kids off at Sunday school.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Sunday morning is one of the times when couples have sex.
Only ones who don't have children yet. Or have bedroom door locks.
Or, traditionally, drop their kids off at Sunday school.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) There's a Methodist church around the corner where the adult congregation is all at least 60 but the Sunday School is full...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Or, traditionally, drop their kids off at Sunday school.
I think that this (in Britain anyway) is now extremely rare. Can't speak for the rest of the UK.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed. I think the congregation Karl mentions must be made up of grandparents looking after the grandchildren whilst the latter's parents have sex.
Or drink coffee.
Or are out at B & Q looking for bedroom door locks..
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm intrigued as to how one may drop off children "traditionally". Is there a specific technique?
FWIW I had an elderly gentleman in my first church. He had first been sent to Sunday School because his mother was giving birth on the kitchen table and they wanted him out of the house. That was in around 1916.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
We already avoid weddings on Saturdays so that couples can consummate their marriages on their wedding night without concerning themselves with breaking the communion fast.
Erm . . . just what would they be consuming, one wants to know.
[Miss Amanda will get her wrap.]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'm intrigued as to how one may drop off children "traditionally". Is there a specific technique?
The technique as observed in our part of the world is something like this. Parent parks as close to entrance of car-park as possible, just long enough to drop child/children off. Then scarper quick, to return towards the end of Sunday School session or some time thereafter; to again sit in car - usually in the entrance to the car-park - waiting for release of offspring.
Occasional parent might actually come in to the hall to collect child/children. But usually to be found loitering in the vestibule, making semaphoric signs to child to hurry up; thus avoiding the dangerous necessity of having to talk to a church person.
To be fair, actually, some of our parents will accompany their kids to church. And a few might even remain in church when the kids go into Sunday School.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
One of church's problems is not adapting itself to real lives of people I think. We have 8 am and 10:30 services. 8 is mostly too early, though I have gone alone. 10:30 means the day is more than half gone by the time we are home.
The local RC church has a Saturday service at 4:30. It is the most popular. Church, then make supper plans. Not inconvenient. Full of young people. The Millenials. Who do not come on Sunday mornings.
Should church not fit people's lives? Must it be inconvenient, or convenient to the greying group? We have seen more modern language of liturgy, more modern hymns.
As it is, we don't attend weekly - more like monthly - because it doesn't fit in.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Of course, you also have to build service times around the availability of clergy and other worship leaders who - with the best will in the world - can't be at St. A's and Holy B's at the same time!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
"lie in" isn't a usual term;
It is ubiquitous in British English.
A lie-in doesn't necessarily imply sleep: a morning tucked up under the duvet with a cup of tea and the paper or a good book is also a lie-in.
Whereas if you sleep in, the implication is that you're actually asleep.
In Canada , it's an antiquated term for maternal post-birth staying in bed. Sleep-doesn't necessarily imply you're sleeping here.
A- I slept in on Sunday.
B- Were you sleeping?
A- No, we woke up at 6 and read, had coffee.
I realize how odd that sounds.
Huh. I would definitely say lie-in rather than "sleep in" if I wasn't actually sleeping. But then I have living grandparents who immigrated from Britain, so my default may be a bit more "mid-Atlantic" than some of my compatriots.
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We have seen more modern language of liturgy, more modern hymns.
Both of which, as a "younger" person I run a mile from!
as ever, MMV
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The difference in Canada is that many have no religious background, save some loose, in name only RC (about 50%) and unstructured protestant (the term protestant actually appears to be passé here). Thus, no understanding of archaic language (the quick and the dead sounds more like zombie avoidance advice) and no familiarity with older hymns. So they run from that.
So in MMV, I think churches have to play to their desired audience. Anglican churches here are filled with retired people of British heritage (a breed which is dying out) whose children are doing yoga and attending modern gatherings which emphasize social connection and something that touches them emotionally. The diocese here has closed a series of churches in a growing city. The modern churches continue to be constructed.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I think it means 'Fresh Expressions' of worship - a C of E/Methodist thingy...
Thank you.
Yes, that's what I was thinking of.
IMO many denominational and/or congregations have the problem that what current churchgoers want (both lay and ordained) and what potential future churchgoers want may be rather different. There's the fear of upsetting those who give their time and money to the church with no guarantee that newcomers will replace them in numbers or commitment as a result of whatever changes are proposed.
The alternative is the FE. The FE can gather at another time, perhaps at another place, and enjoy another process, which allows the traditional congregation to turn up on Sunday at 10.00am to do its usual thing.
However, FEs themselves require dedicated manpower, money and resources, which may then be unavailable to the 10.00am congregations.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So in MMV, I think churches have to play to their desired audience.
No argument from me on that (although naturally I think that most of the CofE's problems could be solved in an instant if we just all went back to 1662 and Hymns Ancient & Modern).
OK, I'll allow the New English Hymnal (as long as it's the first edition) as well for those further up the candle.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We have seen more modern language of liturgy, more modern hymns.
Both of which, as a "younger" person I run a mile from!
as ever, MMV
Many modern hymns - no better than the dirges they replaced, sometimes worse. Modern language in the liturgy - I can never work out what's particularly holy about the vernacular of 1500.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Karl
Out of interest, is there any religious music that you like, or do you find it mostly unpleasant?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We have seen more modern language of liturgy, more modern hymns.
Both of which, as a "younger" person I run a mile from!
as ever, MMV
Many modern hymns - no better than the dirges they replaced, sometimes worse. Modern language in the liturgy - I can never work out what's particularly holy about the vernacular of 1500.
well that's MVing again isn't it? It's not that it's more holy, it's just that for me there's a beauty and majesty in the language which helps (me) focus on what I'm saying, and ponder on the ineffable mystery of it all.
Which I don't get from most of Common Worship.
I appreciate that's coming dangerously close to Sebastian Flyte believing in things because they're a lovely story (although when pushed I'm obviously more concerned with the content than the language) but there we are.
If it does nothing for you then that's fine, but neither you nor I are the yardstick. As far as it goes of course, we're *both* the yardstick! Different strokes...
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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