Ship of Fools: Which Oxford college for Evensong?

Thread: Which Oxford college for Evensong? Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Hello everyone, I know I haven't posted in a while! Next week I will be staying with a friend in Buckinghamshire and we plan on having a day trip in Oxford at some point, part of which will involve Evensong at one of the colleges which allows members of the public to attend. I have only been to Christ Church for Evensong which was wonderful, and handily available throughout the week (we don't know which day we will be visiting), but I would like Shippies' thoughts on which college's Evensong they prefer and why. If there's a clear favourite that might make choosing the day easier too!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Can't advise on this, but nice to see you back, Pomona.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I've only been to Christ Church, on two successive evenings. The Cathedral choir was excellent, the College choir was not!

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

I can't remember whether it was term time when I visited Christ Church but I am fairly certain it was the cathedral choir that sang, not the college choir.

Thank you, Albertus.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

When next week? Lent starts, so schedules might get changed around a bit.

Magdalen was good last time I was there. Here is their schedule for the current term.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

I've been unwell the past few weeks and somehow forgot about Ash Wednesday and Lent beginning, so it would be on Thursday.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

shame - Pusey House have got one at 1815 on Tuesday. I know many won't agree with their theology but their architecture's impressive and the choral/musical standards are *very* good. It's been one of *the* choirs to be in in Oxford for a decade.

Posted by Ultracrepidarian (# 9679) on :

I've never been a huge fan of evensong, but I went to Exeter a couple of times for evensong while I was living in Oxford, and both times the choir and the preaching were really good. I can't remember what day of the week it was.

There's only a couple of weeks more of term, I think, so I'd either plan on visiting soon or waiting until after Easter.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

I would be fine with Pusey House, and my companions are non-Anglican and unaware of any controversy. Unfortunately I am travelling all day Tuesday, a shame it seems! We are definitely visiting this coming Thursday - having a day of free museums, Christ Church meadows if the weather is fine, and Evensong, Oxford on a serious budget!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

O Christ Church every time for me. Or Magdalen or New College. Those are choral foundations - the others presumably undergraduate choirs.

I first came to catholic Christianity at Pusey House under Cheslyn Jones. I believe it became very different.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

I first came to catholic Christianity at Pusey House under Cheslyn Jones. I believe it became very different.

It adopts the imprimatur of the Principal at any given time. FWIW I would suggest that under the current management it's probably as close as it's been to the Cheslyn Jones days since (not that I was there then - I'm Jonathan Baker vintage).

One of the regrets of not living in Oxford these days is that I don't go there more often (or, essentially, at all aside from the Festival of Friends).

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

I first came to catholic Christianity at Pusey House under Cheslyn Jones. I believe it became very different.

Alas, poor Cheslyn. Sacked by Dr. Kemp.

And it did, in many ways. Sad.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ultracrepidarian:
I've never been a huge fan of evensong, but I went to Exeter a couple of times for evensong while I was living in Oxford, and both times the choir and the preaching were really good. I can't remember what day of the week it was. ...

I don't think I've ever been anywhere that has had a sermon at evensong, whether choral or said, on a weekday.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

This review says Kemp appointed him, not sacked him

Posted by Ultracrepidarian (# 9679) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Ultracrepidarian:
I've never been a huge fan of evensong, but I went to Exeter a couple of times for evensong while I was living in Oxford, and both times the choir and the preaching were really good. I can't remember what day of the week it was. ...
I don't think I've ever been anywhere that has had a sermon at evensong, whether choral or said, on a weekday.

The frequent lack of sermon is one of the things I don't like about evensong!

But our parish evensong always had a sermon (evensong was the regular Sunday evening service, often with ferial responses and chanted canticles but occasionally with something fancier), and I'm sure I remember the evensongs I went to at Exeter had sermons. It was a few years ago now, so I could be misremembering. [Paranoid]

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This review says Kemp appointed him, not sacked him

He did both.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I heard a good sermon once at Sunday evensong in Winchester Cathedral - I wonder if they are more common on Sundays than weekdays?

And they do occasionally sneak into the Radio 3 broadcast evensongs. Dare one think that this is more likely when the service comes from a place with lesser musical resources and they need to fill the allocated time?

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ultracrepidarian:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Ultracrepidarian:
I've never been a huge fan of evensong, but I went to Exeter a couple of times for evensong while I was living in Oxford, and both times the choir and the preaching were really good. I can't remember what day of the week it was. ...
I don't think I've ever been anywhere that has had a sermon at evensong, whether choral or said, on a weekday.
The frequent lack of sermon is one of the things I don't like about evensong!

But our parish evensong always had a sermon (evensong was the regular Sunday evening service, often with ferial responses and chanted canticles but occasionally with something fancier), and I'm sure I remember the evensongs I went to at Exeter had sermons. It was a few years ago now, so I could be misremembering.

The Sunday evensongs in Exeter do have sermons and since Dr Kemp's time almost always have had. The good Dr. had at least a couple of Sundays a term when there was an anthem instead; since then choral elaboration has led to anthems and sermons, not to say the psalms being stolen from the congregation, grr. Weekday evensongs almost never do -- in fact I cannot remember one ever in the last fifty years. But I could be misremembering.

Posted by tartanbiretta (# 17172) on :

Please be aware that the usual schedules may change due to Ash Wednesday being this coming week. Eg. Unusually no choral service on Thursday at New College to give the boys & men a day off in lieu.
Choral worship is open to the public in all Colleges that offer it, unless otherwise explictily stated.
Pusey House Evensong on Tuesday? Really? I would be extremely surprised if this is the case. There is no trace of it on the website/termcard/anywhere. If it is happening, it is likely to be the choir of St Cross rather than that of Pusey House.
Any questions about Evensong at Oxford, please ask. It's my bread an butter...!

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

We used to have sermons at Evensong when I was a child. There wasn't a choir, but I remember my grandmother taking me as an excuse to leave before the sermon, which was towards the end of the service.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Curiosity Killed, back in the days when all services were 1662, the usual Sunday pattern was:-

8 am Communion, said and no sermon.

Mid morning (usually 11 am) Morning Prayer orse Matins.

Early evening (6pm or 6.30pm) Evening Prayer orse Evensong.

Morning and Evening Prayer both included chanted psalms and Canticles, had hymns and a sermon. The hymns came before and after, not during, the text of the BCP service, and the sermon was between the penultimate and final hymn. There was usually a choir, but it wasn't necessarily very good. Both services had very much the same character and feel, except that the Canticles were different.

I too can remember being taken out before the sermon.

During the 1950s, a lot of parishes began to introduce a monthly Communion Service in place of Morning Prayer, with music and a sermon - which came in the middle after the readings and the Creed.

If one goes back to the Hardy era, Evening Prayer was often in the afternoon. I've often suspected this was to save candles. It is though why Cathedrals still often have their Sunday Evensong in the afternoon.

Back in the Hardy era the Litany and the first part of the 1662 Communion Service were also inserted between the end of Morning Prayer and the sermon, but that is another story. That had died out before my memory starts.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Sermons are usual on Sundays, but not on weekdays in cathedrals., I'd have thought.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

I am fairly sure there was a sermon at Christ Church when I visited, which would have been last year. It was possibly a Saturday if not a weekday but definitely not a Sunday.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
....Back in the Hardy era the Litany and the first part of the 1662 Communion Service were also inserted between the end of Morning Prayer and the sermon, but that is another story. That had died out before my memory starts.

I believe betjemaniac knows of a church where that still happens, if I recall his comments on a recent thread correctly.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Pomona
You asked specifically about Evensong, so I assume you want a full choir job? If so, there are 4 colleges with choirs of men and boys and next week you get a rare chance to have your pick of the Miserere by Allegri at 3 of them.

The best days to go for seem to be either Tuesday or Ash Wednesday.

Christ Church - 6pm has Evensong on Tuesday with Sumsion in G the setting for the canticles. On Wednesday there is a special service of "music and readings" which is likely to include the Allegri, with a Eucharist after (not stated whether sung or not but I'd hazard a guess that it will be said). Can't go further into the week than that - CC is old-fashioned and won't publish its list for March until (probably) Sunday.

Worcester College is replacing its Evensong on Ash Wednesday with a full choir Eucharist - music not listed.

New College - 6.15pm has Vespers on Monday with a Magnificat by Victoria and Parsons' Ave Maria (wonderful piece); Tuesday is Evensong with Robinson in C canticles; Wednesday is a Eucharist with plainsong setting, Allegri plus Byrd Emendemus in melius (a good thing!); nothing on Thursday; Friday it is Tallis Latin canticles plus Purcell Remember not, Lord, our offences.

Magdalen - 6pm nothing on Monday; Tuesday Evensong is Dyson canticles in D, Grayston Ives There is a land of pure delight AND the Final of Viernee's second Symphonie for Organ at the end; Wednesday is Eucharist (with ashing) Byrd Mass for 5 voices, Allegri, etc; Thursday is boys only, Friday is mens

If I had to recommend I'd go with Magdalen. If you go on Shrove Tuesday they're going to be distributing Claymond's Dole too so you get to see a bit of weird Oxford arcana.

Hope that helps.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Tuesday and Friday aren't possible due to travel unfortunately. My only concern with doing Wednesday is that an Ash Wednesday Eucharist is going to be quite long - my friends are from a house church background and might find it a bit too long, particularly for Eucharistic services with not much in the way of congregational response (there are also possible disability issues with a very long service). We had also planned on going to their local parish church for their evening Ash Wenesday service. I am OK with boys' voices only or men's voices only etc, I'm willing to compromise for a shorter service.

I am intrigued as to the difference between Choral Evening Prayer and Choral Evensong - I am guessing that it's Choral Vespers rather than the Vespers/Compline mixture of Evensong? Magdalen on Thursday for it seems like a good option.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
....Back in the Hardy era the Litany and the first part of the 1662 Communion Service were also inserted between the end of Morning Prayer and the sermon, but that is another story. That had died out before my memory starts.
I believe betjemaniac knows of a church where that still happens, if I recall his comments on a recent thread correctly.

Yes, I wondered whether they also used the Sternhold and Hopkins or Tate and Brady!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:

I am intrigued as to the difference between Choral Evening Prayer and Choral Evensong -

They are the same thing.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

I'd have thought there would be more congregational verbal participation at a Eucharist than at Evensong.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

They are separate things on Magdalen's term card.

Yes, a Eucharist would have more congregational responses but not as much as my friends are used to and coupled with the longer time would be offputting, I felt. We are doing a local Ash Wednesday Eucharist anyway.

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
...I am intrigued as to the difference between Choral Evening Prayer and Choral Evensong - I am guessing that it's Choral Vespers rather than the Vespers/Compline mixture of Evensong? Magdalen on Thursday for it seems like a good option.

Yes, it's a Choral Vespers at Magdalen. Your other option for Thursday is Merton at 6:15 - they now have a trained mixed undergraduate choir, and do an excellent evensong. Highly recommended (and not so far to walk)

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

So what's Choral Vespers? I'd have thought it meant old Roman rite to plainchant.

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
So what's Choral Vespers? I'd have thought it meant old Roman rite to plainchant.

It's a while since I've been to Evening Prayer at Magdalen, but as I recall, it's roughly speaking the bits of Evensong corresponding to the Latin Rite Vespers, for example, it includes the Magnificat but not the Nunc Dimittis.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
So what's Choral Vespers? I'd have thought it meant old Roman rite to plainchant.

You probably know that Evensong as we know it, is comprised by combining Vespers with Compline, which is why there are two canticles. The Magnificat is from Vespers (Evening Prayer) and the Nunc Dimittis is from Compline (Night Prayer).
Thus, Vespers has the Magnificat, but no Nunc Dimittis.

The Psalms in choral services can be sung either to Anglican Chant or to Plain Chant and the same is true of the canticle(s) if not sung to a choral setting.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

I first came to catholic Christianity at Pusey House under Cheslyn Jones. I believe it became very different.
It adopts the imprimatur of the Principal at any given time. FWIW I would suggest that under the current management it's probably as close as it's been to the Cheslyn Jones days since (not that I was there then - I'm Jonathan Baker vintage).

One of the regrets of not living in Oxford these days is that I don't go there more often (or, essentially, at all aside from the Festival of Friends).

Hmm. I recall Cheslyn Jones being compared with the previous regime (Hugh Maycock and Donny Allchin), and not to his favour. Things were always better in the good old days [Roll Eyes]

[ 26. February 2017, 20:23: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

So what did Jones do that was so wrong?

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So what did Jones do that was so wrong?

" Things were always better in the good old days "

Nothing that he either did or didn't do in particular, probably. Hugh Maycock had been there for twenty years and was revered - cf. Donny Allchin's reminiscences of him. His successor Barry Marshall died as a result of a tragic accident - a fall from a ladder (was he trying to replace a light-bulb?) almost as soon as he had arrived. As I recall CJ did seem a bit new-broomish, but not in any way revolutionary. It can't have been an easy job to take on, given circumstances quite beyond his control.

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

Tomorrow, 28 February, you could attend evensong in Welsh (for St David's Day) at Jesus College

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

It wouldn't be possible, but I'm very sad that I would miss such a thing!

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So what did Jones do that was so wrong?
" Things were always better in the good old days "

Nothing that he either did or didn't do in particular, probably. Hugh Maycock had been there for twenty years and was revered - cf. Donny Allchin's reminiscences of him. His successor Barry Marshall died as a result of a tragic accident - a fall from a ladder (was he trying to replace a light-bulb?) almost as soon as he had arrived. As I recall CJ did seem a bit new-broomish, but not in any way revolutionary. It can't have been an easy job to take on, given circumstances quite beyond his control.

His predecessor was changing a lightbulb on the steps up to the library yes.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Dear Cheslyn was wildly eccentric. But what got me was the combination of highly intelligent and informed preaching with liturgical renewal liturgy, which I'd never come across before.

It made me see Catholic worship wasn't aesthetic self indulgence.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Dear Cheslyn was wildly eccentric. But what got me was the combination of highly intelligent and informed preaching with liturgical renewal liturgy, which I'd never come across before.

It made me see Catholic worship wasn't aesthetic self indulgence.

Wasn't the problem, AIUI, more to do with his grip of the finances (or lack of) rather than the spiritual side of things?

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Dear Cheslyn was wildly eccentric. But what got me was the combination of highly intelligent and informed preaching with liturgical renewal liturgy, which I'd never come across before.

It made me see Catholic worship wasn't aesthetic self indulgence.
Wasn't the problem, AIUI, more to do with his grip of the finances (or lack of) rather than the spiritual side of things?

I didn't think it fair to blame Cheslyn for that; after all there was the Council, who had some of (perhaps, legally, all?) the responsibility.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Dear Cheslyn was wildly eccentric. But what got me was the combination of highly intelligent and informed preaching with liturgical renewal liturgy, which I'd never come across before.

It made me see Catholic worship wasn't aesthetic self indulgence.
Wasn't the problem, AIUI, more to do with his grip of the finances (or lack of) rather than the spiritual side of things?
I didn't think it fair to blame Cheslyn for that; after all there was the Council, who had some of (perhaps, legally, all?) the responsibility.

Actually, one of these days I'd like to get to the bottom of all that. We've* all heard the rumours and the horror stories. If half of it is true then it's desperately sad. Not for washing on here though. Suffice to say it's a miracle in some ways that anything survived from the ruins.

The unravelling as a result was still going on when I pitched up a quarter of a century later.

I must admit I do feel a sense of sadness every time I go through the front door and reflect on what was lost...

*Puseyites

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Unfortunately illness meant I wasn't able to go to Oxford after all, but I live near enough that I should visit more often anyway, so will keep suggestions in mind for then. Desperate to get to Fairacres for a retreat at some point too (and hopefully will time it so the orchard will be in blossom)...

Posted by John3000 (# 18786) on :

I will be visiting Oxford for a couple of days soon and was wondering: how soon before a weekday evensong do people start queuing at New College and Magdalen? These are the two I'd like to visit, and I've read they can get quite busy. I am hard of hearing in one ear and do like to have the best choice of seating, yet equally I don't want to be loitering around the chapel doors unreasonably early.

[ 27. May 2017, 06:48: Message edited by: John3000 ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

You need to check the dates of the choral terms: Christ Church is likely to go with mixed voices up to the beginning of July and Men's Voices and/or visiting choirs after that. Magdalen and New College will break up before then.

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