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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ness FCC ritual
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
So, the Ness FCC (Free Church Continuing - I assume a Free Church of Scotland breakaway?) have thoughtfully put some of their services up on YouTube. Mostly English, some Gaelic. There seems to be services for each day, mostly morning and evening.
Here is one example of a Sabbath Morning Communion services. It's from 2015. The web-cam is pointing at the front of the church. I can't see any alter/communion table, just a podium which reminds me a lot of some courts I've been in. Would there be a communion table somewhere out of camera shot?
There are five people in view. Bottom appears to be a cantor of sorts - he lines out the psalm singing from about 1:20 into the video - and another elder (?). Top middle is clearly the minister. Either side are two other men - generic elders? Everyone is nicely dressed in suit and tie and the minister (and at least one of the elders) has a dog collar.
Now at about 9:10 (after the long psalm), there is a prayer. Everyone stands up, and looks seemingly in random directions.
At about 1:04:20 we come to "Fencing the Table". I don't know what that is. It's followed by more words. Gosh these people are wordy, and I say that as a pretty wordy person myself.
By about 1:17:00 the minister has moved out of camera and we get the 'take eat, this is my body' bit. It would have been nice if the camera had moved to show this.
By 1:38:00 we're back on the podium praying while standing in different directions. And so to bed.
What's going on here? Who are these people and what are they doing?
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I haven't got time to watch the whole youtube, though it's interesting. Almost certainly, even though I'm not Scottish, the table will be directly below where the cantor is standing.
There are quite a lot of youtubes now that feature Gaelic singing. Oddly, and this is something that isn't widely known, the tradition of singing like that isn't 'celtic'. It's descended from the way we all sang metrical psalms in the seventeenth century. The Cantor didn't announce what tune he was singing for the first psalm but a lot of the tunes are theoretically the same as used as ordinary Common Metre psalm and hymn tunes In English. The singing was tightened up from about the time of William III in England and of George III in the rest of Scotland, whereas Gaelic singing has carried on developing that tradition. I have heard somebody describe one of the free churches in the Highlands still singing that way in English in the mid-late C20.
There are traces of the Ness people sounding a bit like that in English, but I think that's also caused by the way the sound is being recorded. It's also possible that this is a church that holds the view that only the psalms should be sung in public worship, and not hymns that are the mere works of men.
I agree with your description 'wordy'.
[ 22. March 2017, 09:24: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
The Free Church Coninuing, which is a relatively recent breakaway from the Free Church of Scotland, only sing Psalms, metrical Psalms, which are led by a precentor. They are basically keeping alive what the whole Church of Scotland did in worship until around the 1860s and 70s, (well after the Disruption which formed the Free Church, which in those days was a pretty progressive body). Sitting to sing and standing to pray and eschewing the use of any instruments hut the human voice was normal. Fencing the table is when the minister preserves the sacrament from abuse by describing marks of grace, to encourage those who should commune to come. However in the name of the Head of the Church he (always he) must also bar the rest, who have no right to sit at the table, and must describe these. The fencing usually ends with a reading from Matthew 5:2-12 and from Galatians 5:16-26.
I expect the table is out of shot, though in older days iit was customary to have no table in church, except for communion weekends (it is a weekend event, not a one-off service, but only takes place once or twice a year, usually) and just bring the Manse kitchen table in to serve - all to do with not imbuing articles of furniture with holiness, for sanctity is only found within the people of God (which I think a fair point, and usually shy away from "dedicating" church furniture).
If this seems odd to some of the shippies, believe me, some of the knickers in a twist over procedure I read in Ecclesiantics sound just as weird to me, and I am not Free Church!
[ 22. March 2017, 10:17: Message edited by: Cathscats ]
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
For your information an article on fencing the table. There is an article I wrote which looks at the way it was transmuted in more liberal Reformed churches and affected liturgical practice more widely.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
For any shipmates that are interested, here is Connor Quigley's website of a cappella metrical psalm singing, with a selection not just from Scotland but elsewhere, sung in different ways, and for the most part to a much higher standard of recording.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
A lovely way of singing the Psalms, indeed, and recommended by John Bell, no less, at a Diocesan conference I went to some years ago.
Who needs Anglican chant?
Referring back to the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing), their excellent website shows that, although they are a fairly small group, they have managed to build some nice, simple, new churches in recent years - presumably because the 'official' FCoS buildings are no longer available to them.
http://www.freechurchcontinuing.org/
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Their clergy are ALL men!
Not one of whom could hold a candle to ++Georg Ganswein either
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
As to the directions they're turning in prayer, I'm thinking perhaps the whole congregation turns to face the pew they were sitting in, and this is sort of what the clergy are doing except the senior one leading the prayer? Tangentially, do not the MPs turn similarly in the Commons for prayers?
I could be way wrong...just asking.
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Scots lass
Shipmate
# 2699
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Posted
Communion in the FCC and the FCOS is frequently led by a visiting minister. I think that stems from a time when there weren't enough ministers to go round! So the people at the front will be the minister who is leading that day, the minister of the church itself (hence two dog collars) and the elders. All men.
Otherwise, Cathscats has it right. I grew up in the FCOS (although not in a Gaelic congregation), so it's really not that weird. Not half as weird as an Anglo-Catholic service, IMO ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Although it may seem weird, there are a number of similarities between Free Church (continuing or not!) and the Catholic Church.
Both communities have their main body of praise coming from the Psalms of David
Both communities have in different ways a 'Fencing of the Table'
Both communities have all male clergy.
Certainly the Catholic church has some hymns, more which have been introduced since the Second Vatican Council, but the major part of the Liturgy of the Hours as well as the Liturgy of the Eucharist, is made up of the Psalms.
Whilst the Fencing of the Tables takes place publicly in the Free church, it is equally done ,but much more discreetly in the Catholic Church in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and in the well known admonitions of the Church that only those who have prepared themselves properly should approach the Holy Table.
Free Church congregations, just like Catholic faithful will only find males who have been ordained to preside at public worship - ministers and elders, just like bishops and priests are all male.
The Roman Church, unlike the Free Church does allow singing to be accompanied by musical instruments , although Byzantine rite Catholics and Orthodox do not have the support of musical instruments during the celebration of the liturgy.
Even if it may not seem like it, both the Catholic Church and the Free Church have a very high regard for the Sacrament of Holy Communion, although they may express that devotion in different ways.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
On fencing the table, there is something very similar in the 1662 BCP. It's called the Exhortation and starts "Dearly beloved in the Lord, ye that mind to come to the Holy Communion of the Body and Blood of our Saviour Christ .... ". It is about examining oneself lest we eat and drink of our own damnation. It was supposed to be read at every Communion Service, but use of it had more or less died out by the time I was confirmed in the early sixties. I don't think I ever heard it read, though a clergyman told me that he was once so disgusted at the irreverent condition of some of the congregation at Midnight on Christmas Eve, that he read it, but they didn't seem to notice, yet alone take it in. It is in Common Worship as an Appendix to the BCP version of the service.
In the days when all services were 1662, I don't know by what authority clergy left it out. The Rubric says 'shall'. I've communion manuals I've inherited from parents and grandparents, that they would have been given for their confirmation classes. One from the 1930s fairly high church and written by Cosmo Gordon Lang doesn't mention it, which possibly implies it was not all that often used then. Another by Bishop Walsham How in the 1890s says of it 'when it is used', which implies it was sometimes being left out even that long ago, though he commends it.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks for the reminder about the BCP Exhortation.
I've heard it only once, when Father read it at one of our erstwhile 'Fifth Sunday' afternoon BCP Eucharists (a pet project of our then Churchwarden, but which was somewhat less than successful....).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
For your information an article on fencing the table. There is an article I wrote which looks at the way it was transmuted in more liberal Reformed churches and affected liturgical practice more widely
As someone who grew up in a church with wee cuppies and open communion, that's interesting reading, thanks.
About the overlap with Roman Catholicism, it is a bit startling to think that this is the same as this, but I see the point. There is a sense of historically grounded (but democratic/demotic) ritualism in the more traditional expressions of Reformed worship. It's one of the reasons that I find it frustrating that online 'Reformed' forums are often jealously and exclusively guarded by evangelical American baptists who think that Reformed=TULIP.
About prayer positions: the parliament website says:
quote:
MPs and Peers stand for prayers facing the wall behind them. It is thought this practice developed due to the difficulty Members would historically have faced of kneeling to pray while wearing a sword.
Neat. Dunno if that's relevant or not.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
... About the overlap with Roman Catholicism, it is a bit startling to think that this is the same as this, but I see the point. ...
What startled me was not the difference between two ways of singing the same words, but that apparently if you are pope you are expected to go to confession in public. Does any shipmate know if that is normal, or is this a sort of 'symbolic confession' rather than his real one?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I was at a US Episcopal Church service last Sunday where they read the exhortation. They had not read it on any of the previous Sundays of Lent, nor at any other point in the year. Is there something about the Third Sunday of Lent? Is there any tradition of reading the exhortation then? I don't know what they will do for the remaining Sundays of Lent.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I was at a US Episcopal Church service last Sunday where they read the exhortation. They had not read it on any of the previous Sundays of Lent, nor at any other point in the year. Is there something about the Third Sunday of Lent? Is there any tradition of reading the exhortation then? I don't know what they will do for the remaining Sundays of Lent.
I've been a member of a couple of parishes where the Exhortation was read once a year, typically in Lent. So the parish where you heard it may have picked Lent 3 to do it. Not required, but it's a way to make sure it's used at least once a year. Lent seems like an appropriate time to do that. I've also experienced that yearly pattern with the Decalogue (now that our USA BCP 1979 doesn't require it monthly). One Lent, I think we had the Great Litany on Lent 1, the Decalogue on Lent 2, and the Exhortation on Lent 3.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Enoch I'm not sure about the pope going to Confession in public.Every eucharist begins with a Act of Confession of Sin,the best known form of that being the Confiteor with its triple acknowledgement - mea culpa,mea culpa, mea maxima culpa (me a cowboy,me a cowboy, me a Mexican cowboy might be a translation!)
I didn't watch all the clip of the singing of the Miserere after the Mass on Ash Wednesday but I would be very surprised if it included a personal sacramental confession,although it may have included a public acknowledgement of personal imperfection.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
[QB] . There is a sense of historically grounded (but democratic/demotic) ritualism in the more traditional expressions of Reformed worship. It's one of the reasons that I find it frustrating that online 'Reformed' forums are often jealously and exclusively guarded by evangelical American baptists who think that Reformed=TULIP.
You might be interested in Fraser MacDonald's piece Towards a spatial theory of worship: some observations from Presbyterian Scotland. You may note that social structural behaviour alter within the confines of a meeting hall.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
So far, I have watched the YouTube selectively, but I will come back to it. It would seem that none of the filming is done away from the pulpit and the communion table beneath.
One thing I notice, is that "Sabbath" and "Lord's Day" - both these terms are used, and I presume that both are used interchangeably, referring to Sunday. But strictly speaking, Sabbath, refers to Saturday rather than Sunday.
Thus, unless some of their week-end worship takes place on a Saturday, then "Lord's Day" would seem to be the correct term to use.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Enoch I have now watched the short video. It shows the pope entering one of the confessionals in St Peter's in order to HEAR confessions. It is not uncommon in several countries for the confessionals not to have doors. Unless one was standing right beside the confessional one would be unable to hear what was being said.There appears to be a cardinal making confession kneeling right in front of the middle door, which is somewhat unusual as the penitents would enter one at a time on either side of the middle.
It is not uncommon at penitential seasons for the pope to take a turn at hearing confessions in St Peter's basilica.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Enoch I have now watched the short video. It shows the pope entering one of the confessionals in St Peter's in order to HEAR confessions. It is not uncommon in several countries for the confessionals not to have doors. Unless one was standing right beside the confessional one would be unable to hear what was being said.There appears to be a cardinal making confession kneeling right in front of the middle door, which is somewhat unusual as the penitents would enter one at a time on either side of the middle.
It is not uncommon at penitential seasons for the pope to take a turn at hearing confessions in St Peter's basilica.
I understand that the present Pope, is in the habit of going to the confessional (to make his own confession) every two weeks.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
One thing I notice, is that "Sabbath" and "Lord's Day" - both these terms are used, and I presume that both are used interchangeably, referring to Sunday. But strictly speaking, Sabbath, refers to Saturday rather than Sunday.
Thus, unless some of their week-end worship takes place on a Saturday, then "Lord's Day" would seem to be the correct term to use.
Not in traditional Presbyterianism, where "the Lord's Day" and "Sabbath" were indeed understood to be interchangeable. Per Question and Answer 59 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism:
quote:
Q. Which day of the seven hath God appointed to be the weekly Sabbath?
A. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly Sabbath; and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world, which is the Christian Sabbath.
Likewise, per Question and Answer 116 of the Westminster Larger Catechism:
quote:
Q. What is required in the Fourth Commandment?
A. The Fourth Commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian Sabbath, and in the New Testament called “the Lord’s Day.”
In my experience, it isn't nearly as common to hear Sunday referred to as the Sabbath in mainstream (American) Presbyterianism as it might have been half a century or more ago, but I still encounter it from time to time.
[ 23. March 2017, 19:02: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
It is quite usual for members of the Free Church of Scotland as well as its splinter groups including the Free Presbyterian Church and its splinter groups to refer to Sunday as the 'Sabbath', often said in hushed tones.The 'Sabbath' can also be referred to as 'the Lord's Day'.
The celebration of Communion lasts for several days and the YouTube videos contain some of the services during the week preparatory to the Communion service and the week after the Communion.
Generally,as has already been mentioned , there will be other ministers who will be present to conduct some of the preparatory and thanksgiving services.Traditionally on the Friday before Communion there would be a Fast Day,though this has more or less disappeared now.Communion 'seasons' would be held at different times in different parishes,allowing ministers(and sometimes Communion devotees) to travel around and be present.The Friday Fast day which was a non working day changed into a local holiday Monday well over 100 years ago and is the origin of the differing and sometimes confusing local holidays in Scotland.
As mentioned already Free Churches often don't have a fixed 'Holy Table' as even that might be seen as too papist.Similarly there is not usually a baptismal font but rather a basin or bucket pressed into service for a baptism.
All these practices would have been normal in the Church of Scotland until about the time of the Great Disruption of 1843 which brought about the Free Church in its original form.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I've watched the short video again and indeed it does show the pope receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation. It is not an essential task of the papal office to go to Confession in front of others but the pope is leading by example. He then goes to the chapel of the blessed Sacrament where he is shown hearing the confessions of others.
My apologies then to Enoch also
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
You might be interested in Fraser MacDonald's piece Towards a spatial theory of worship: some observations from Presbyterian Scotland. You may note that social structural behaviour alter within the confines of a meeting hall.
Actually that is very interesting and ties into some of the research I read (a while ago!) on 'space' (though mostly it was called with the 'built environment') and crime. There was a lot of discussion about deliberately changing the built environment to encourage or discourage certain behaviours - examples are playing classical music to deter teenagers, or putting arm rests on park benches to prevent the homeless sleeping in the park. The second of those is crudely physical, but the first is more of a social marker, understood by all as signifying we don't want your sort here.
Until now I hadn't made any connection between that and church architecture/'space', though probably I should have
On that note, I liked your image of a Reformed church in Italy on your website and came up with this contrast from here. Both are minimalist, neither are the Sistine Chapel or York Minster, but...
This is apparently a recently redecorated Free Church (Continuing) at Scalpay.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Scots lass
Shipmate
# 2699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
As mentioned already Free Churches often don't have a fixed 'Holy Table' as even that might be seen as too papist.Similarly there is not usually a baptismal font but rather a basin or bucket pressed into service for a baptism.
In my experience, it's normally a basin that's part of the communion silver - not someone's washing up bowl as your phrasing suggests!
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
It was certainly not meant to be denigrating but I have seen in Free church halls a bucket like basin i.e. deep which is brought into the church for a baptismal service.However I have to confess that I have never been to a Free church baptism nor indeed to a Free Church communion.
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Who needs Anglican chant?
Oi! Everyone needs Anglican chant! It is simply the best fun in the world in the same way that cricket is.
Seriously, I do honestly rather enjoy the stuff and having sung chanted psalms over and over means I have learned them by heart.
I think it's rather nice if people film and post their services online. A bit of outreach of ordinary life things into the internet of porn, terrorism and cheap plastic.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
![[Razz]](tongue.gif) I was brought up on badly sung Anglican chant, so that might colour my view. If done properly e.g. in Quires and Places Where They Sing, it's OK.
Agreed re the recording of services etc. on YouTube or whatever, as long as it's rather better quality than the example in the OP. Here's an example (which may not be entirely unfamiliar to Anglicans) from Foreign Parts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6PA8CeGD0o
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I was brought up on badly sung Anglican chant, so that might colour my view. If done properly e.g. in Quires and Places Where They Sing, it's OK
IJ
Sung in four part harmony by a trained choir it is lovely.
Singing it in unison with a congregation with no pointed text (as happened in my youth) is dire.
I far prefer plainchant tones.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I don't really find it enough to listen to someone else singing psalms. However good they are. I like to join in. Singing prose psalms to conventional CofE chants was great when it worked, but that required both a choir and a congregation which knew what it was doing. Most of the time, it was dreadful, which is why it has died out.
I don't personally find trying to emulate the monastic Latin way of doing this but in English any better. Indeed, although I don't encounter it very often, it's much more difficult to get the measure of and so usually just an esoteric way of being worse.
So I think the rest of us away from Scotland made a mistake in the mid nineteenth century when we switched from singing psalms in metre to chanting them. I realise a lot of people won't agree with me.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Up to a point, I would agree (I'm not too keen on plainsong, especially when sung badly, either!).
There Is Another Way (as the banks say....), and that is the responsorial psalm, with cantor singing the verses, and the rest of the assembly singing the refrain. We do this at Our Place, using the C of E version of the Redemptorist Fathers' weekly readings sheet, and it works quite well. It's done a capella mostly, though on High Days and Holydays we may have organ accompaniment as well.
FWIW, at our monthly Evensong & Benediction, we say the Psalm(s), with the officiant leading, and the assembly following on alternate verses. IMHO the delightfully quirky Coverdale translation (in the 1662 BCP) does not at all lose its appeal by doing it thusly. YMMV.
I still like the metrical psalms, though, and they can be equally idiosyncratic.....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
You lot need to see this private chapel. You should see it is plain almost to the level of Presbyterian Chapel in Scotland. However, the items in it are oak, silk and high-quality silver. It is a Presbyterian private chapel!
So what is going on.
The problem is a very different theological shaping of sacred space. Sacred space is brought into being by a combination of elements. When those elements are not in conjunction then they are not sacred. As one/two of the elements is the speaking and hearing of the Word of God this is always time limited as well as space limited.
Congregations quite often do have practices of either choosing unadorned, secular (of secular appearance) or even deliberately using for secular purposes those elements outside worship. Specifically to make the point that these are not somehow sacred of themselves. On the other hand, there is a tendency to like to have things set aside for these purposes as much for convenience as anything.
I would argue that this is a natural mode of behaviour to a group that hidden in its psyche has a narrative of travel.
People argue that Reformed Christians have no sense of Sacred Space but the conjunction can be found in both Calvin and Barth and our behaviour suggest quite strongly that we understand the boundaries in time/space between the secular and the sacred.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Indeed - and that Chapel is quite exquisite. One can almost imagine 1662 BCP services being held!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Tangent Alert
I don't know if it's still there. The house in question is now a hotel. But this is a photo of the chapel which certainly was in Littlecote House near Hungerford about thirty years ago. It dates from the Interregnum in the 1650s.
The family were prominent on the Parliament side in the Civil War. 30 years ago, there were still hanging on the walls of the Great Hall, the uniforms worn by the family's private regiment. They had been hung up there with pride when the war ended in 1649, and had been there ever since except for a short period when they had been stolen. Apparently, they had even remained on display when Charles II had visited the house. The family had made their peace with the Restoration, but presumably wanted to drop the hint to the king that he should not get above himself. I've no idea what has happened to them since the place became a hotel.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
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Jengie, thanks for what you have posted and linked to. It's all interesting and helpful.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
For your information an article on fencing the table. There is an article I wrote which looks at the way it was transmuted in more liberal Reformed churches and affected liturgical practice more widely.
Much like the address from the French Reformed baptismal liturgy, the invitation to the Table you talk about, while not in the Book of Common Worship or other "official" liturgical materials, is commonly heard in the Presbyterian Church (USA).
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
People argue that Reformed Christians have no sense of Sacred Space but the conjunction can be found in both Calvin and Barth and our behaviour suggest quite strongly that we understand the boundaries in time/space between the secular and the sacred.
I wonder if you could unpack this a little.
The understanding reflected in the PC(USA)'s Directory for Worship (and elsewhere in American Presbyterian writings) is that all space and time are sacred—the earth is the Lord's, etc.—and that no particular space or time is more sacred than any other. Those times and places we think of as "sacred" aren't really more sacred than "secular" times and spaces, but rather are clear manifestations of the sacredness of all times and spaces.
I have a hunch that what you're getting at is not incompatable with the understanding I have described, but I'm curious to hear (or read) your thoughts.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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venbede
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# 16669
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
There is an article I wrote
Jengie
The opening words of Hunter's positive invitation (Ye that do truly..) are from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer Holy Communion office as a matter of interest.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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David Goode
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# 9224
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The opening words of Hunter's positive invitation (Ye that do truly..) are from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer Holy Communion office as a matter of interest.
The words are found, in more or less the familiar "1662" form, as the preface to the General Confession in the 1548 Order of the Communion, which was an interim rite between the Latin Sarum Rite and the English Book of Common Prayer of 1549, supplying some English materials for the priest to insert into the Latin Mass.
[ 30. March 2017, 07:26: Message edited by: David Goode ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Nick, you really want to.
Then let me introduce you to a forgotten work On Other Space by Michel Foucault. It is not per se about Sacred Space but introduces the idea of Heterotopia.
The next thing was the realisation that as worship started my behaviour changed in part in response to the behaviour of others. The clearest expression of these rules will be that of "X is not acceptable in worship" whether it is popular style worship, dancing or simply expecting congregational response apart from hymn/psalm singing and reciting the Lord's Prayer. We phrase it that way because in our meeting halls are used for other purposes. A congregation that will happily hold a Barn Dance on a Saturday night in the 'church' will object to be asked to clap to the rhythm of a hymn during Sunday worship. Different rules of behaviour are applied within the time-space context. What is more the boundary is abrupt in my experience. Very few URC ministers have ever got the congregation to gather in quiet prayer before the service the way that is normal among Anglo-Catholics. People gather and chatter to friends and others, church business is conducted and there is generally a friendly hubbub going on. That suddenly changes at some point. The signal can be the Bible carried in, or the entrance of the preacher (minister) but suddenly silence and attentiveness are enacted. It is a bit like children playing Statutes. However, these are ritual acts, the preacher will often have come and gone from the worship space several times before they make the entrance and nobody mistakes these for the start of worship. Equally, for years in my home church the elder carried in a large bible and placed it on the lectern several minutes before the start of worship but nobody ever mistook that for the start. If people fail to pick up the signal people at the front are not beyond drawing their attention (in this case it was a pairing of the preacher and an elder in specific positions on the dais). These to a sociologist of religion would clearly indicate that a sacred space is being created within the religious setting.
The conjunction is simply People, Word and Sacrament. However, what is equally striking is that the elements that often used to symbolise this are deliberately put to profane use or made to look like secular objects. This is not as we Reformed suppose ordinariness but a recognise religious practice. You can read more in Kim Knott's book The Location of Religion which talks of the Left Hand Path as that which approaches the deity through the profane.
So what I would argue is we create a heterotopic Sacred Space. A palimpsest where the sacred signifcation temporarily overwrites the signification of the profane.
Codicil: Most Sacred spaces are Heterotopias of various lengths but it is not true that most heterotopias are sacred spaces. The cinema, theatre, maybe concert hall and the internet are all heterotopic in some form.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Nick Tamen
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Sorry to be so slow to respond, Jennie Jon, but thanks very much for such good stuff to chew on. I appreciate it very much.
FWIW, I have seen the conundrum of trying to get people to be quiet before the service starts—a la Catholics or Episcopalians—play out many times in Presbyterian churches here, always without "success." You've given me a better sense of why that is. But carrying the Bible in is a practice that seems never to have taken root here. In my experience, the "signal" is almost always the ringing of a bell, usually chimes connected to the organ if there are such. Often it takes the form of "chiming the hour" (if the service starts on the hour), which I guess is as clear a signal as any that "the time to worship has arrived."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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As I hope I indicated carrying the Bible is only one possible one.
One congregation had a conjunction of minister/worship leader and elder on the dais at the front. Indeed that congregation would not bring the Bible in until silence was obtained which rather rules it out for being the signal in that congregation. I also have seen in earlier times amongst congregations with a Congregational heritage no bringing in of the Bible. When this is the case quite often just the minister walking in sometimes with beadle, church secretary or duty elder, sometimes alone, suffices.
Jengie
[ 03. April 2017, 19:27: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
As I hope I indicated carrying the Bible is only one possible one.
Oh, you did. I was just commenting that the tradition of carrying the Bible in apparently didn't make it across the Pond. (Ditto having beadles.)
The other common signal around here is the entrance of the choir, assuming that the choir doesn't process on the first hymn and doesn't sit in a rear gallery.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I can think of a URC church where the sign of the beginning of worship is an elder coming to the front and lighting a (large) candle.
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David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I can think of a URC church where the sign of the beginning of worship is an elder coming to the front and lighting a (large) candle.
Papist!
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Is Nonconformist Outrage!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I can think of a URC church where the sign of the beginning of worship is an elder coming to the front and lighting a (large) candle.
What do they do at the end? Presumably unlike a shabbat candle it won't burn out before Jengie jon's 'heterotopic Sacred Space' collapses into secularism. Do they snuff it out or process out with it or just walk out and leave it?
I assume they don't snuff it out, though I almost wish they did. It would be a concrete reification of the idea of worship as a temporarily sacred space/time.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I assume they don't snuff it out, though I almost wish they did. It would be a concrete reification of the idea of worship as a temporarily sacred space/time.
I know of quite a few churches of various tribes—Methodist, Episcopal and Lutheran as well as Presbyterian/Reformed—where candles are snuffed during or right after the last hymn. At our place, the one large candle is snuffed during the last hymn, but after it is used to re-light the candle lighter earlier used to light it, which is carried out.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I assume they don't snuff it out, though I almost wish they did. It would be a concrete reification of the idea of worship as a temporarily sacred space/time.
I know of quite a few churches of various tribes—Methodist, Episcopal and Lutheran as well as Presbyterian/Reformed—where candles are snuffed during or right after the last hymn. At our place, the one large candle is snuffed during the last hymn, but after it is used to re-light the candle lighter earlier used to light it, which is carried out.
That's certainly the custom here now whenever we've been to a Uniting Church service. From the way in which it was done, it looked as if it were a regular practice. Not so 30 years ago, you'd have been hearing the cries of popery in Edinburgh.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I assume they don't snuff it out, though I almost wish they did. It would be a concrete reification of the idea of worship as a temporarily sacred space/time.
I know of quite a few churches of various tribes—Methodist, Episcopal and Lutheran as well as Presbyterian/Reformed—where candles are snuffed during or right after the last hymn. At our place, the one large candle is snuffed during the last hymn, but after it is used to re-light the candle lighter earlier used to light it, which is carried out.
That's certainly the custom here now whenever we've been to a Uniting Church service. From the way in which it was done, it looked as if it were a regular practice. Not so 30 years ago, you'd have been hearing the cries of popery in Edinburgh.
That's interesting. Not something I've personally seen. I assumed the symbolism of snuffing out the candle would be too negative, so processing it out into the world or leaving it in situ - both of which I have seen - would be more common.
Though the 30 years ago comment rings true - my mother still looks dubiously at candles as something probably harmless but not quite the done thing.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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