Ship of Fools: Backlash at Bath Abbey over no more Choral Matins

Thread: Backlash at Bath Abbey over no more Choral Matins Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

Up until now, Bath Abbey has had at its 11.15 Sunday morning service, Choral Matins, most weeks according to the 1662 BCP; but I think replaced by a Choral Eucharist only once a month. But from Easter, the 11.15 Sunday service becomes Choral Eucharist every week.

I have seen this reported in the Daily Telegraph and I have looked this up on the Church website and I appreciate what the Rector Revd. Prebendary Edward Mason is saying about the reasons for making this change. Nevertheless, IMHO the 'dropping' altogether of Choral Matins is too abrupt and should have been phased out gradually, so as to take place on fewer Sundays in the month, letting Choral Euchatist take over equally gradually. Choral Matins has been phased out in this way at churches up and down the country. What I don't know is whether other Bath Churches have Matins or Morning Prayer at least on some Sundays.

I offer this topic for discussion.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Here's a link:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/03/bath-abbey-sparks-backlash-rector-replaces-400-year-old-morning/

IJ

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

People (even the Torygraph) tend to forget that Cranmer designed Matins to be a prelude to the Eucharist, which he intended to remain the principal service of the day.

Some Cathedrals still have Choral Matins before the Sung Eucharist (ours does), and even our humble little backstreet shack says BCP Matins at 930am on Sundays, with the Parish Mass at 1030am. The usual congregation for Matins these days is just 1 or 2 (it used to be 5 or 6!).

1115am is a very civilised hour for a service, but makes the words of the Collect '..safely brought us to the beginning of this day...' ring a little ironically, seeing that it'll be nearly noon by the time it's said or sung! Definitely a service for the leisured classes...

IJ

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

The lady quoted in the Telegraph article claims that Choral Matins is attended by 300-400 people. The congregation must have grown dramatically in the last 2 years then because in the few occasions I've been there with a visiting choir, although the service has been well attended the congregation has been nowhere near that size.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I think it was +Michael Perham who once pointed out that not everyone's spirituality included, or was formed by, frequent attendance at the Eucharist, but that the Offices had an important part to play in the lives of those who attended.

It'll be interesting to see if the 1115am congregation diminishes or grows in numbers as a result of the change.

I wonder how the Abbey choir feels about it? Presumably their repertoire will change, if the Psalms and Canticles are no longer used (though they do have Choral Evensong as well).

IJ

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

I imagine that much of the upset is because the Abbey is, AIUI, one of the quite rare holdouts of old-fashioned, conservative low churchpersonship who have kept Choral Mattins going.

No doubt it seems like the sun setting on something for at least some of those who attend, which is a feeling I can sympathise with even if Mattins is not my morning service of choice.

As BF says there is also a musical element to consider - settings of the morning canticles must be nearly extinct as part of the choral repertoire these days...

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

To what extent is this any of our business unless we live in Bath and either regularly go to the Abbey, or might if the services when we got there were different from those at the moment?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

None of our business directly, of course, but we are simply reflecting on the end of an era, as dj_ordinaire points out.

IJ

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
To what extent is this any of our business unless we live in Bath and either regularly go to the Abbey, or might if the services when we got there were different from those at the moment?

If we all asked such questions, there would be no Ecclesiantics.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
To what extent is this any of our business unless we live in Bath and either regularly go to the Abbey, or might if the services when we got there were different from those at the moment?
If we all asked such questions, there would be no Ecclesiantics.

...and truth to tell, the entire Internet would also be pretty empty!

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

As the "person to blame", thanks for these constructive responses. As I see it, it is the abrupt way that 'dropping' Matins is being done. Many cathedrals and greater parish churches have painlessly reduced and even phased out Choral Matins completely. We can follow with interest, how things settle down or not at Bath Abbey.

Matins, I like as an additional service, but which I attend seldom to never, because it does not fit in with my church routine. However, I went to that service more often in younger days.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Quite so, and perhaps it would indeed have been more diplomatic to, say, alternate Matins with a Sung Eucharist week by week.

BTW, it looks as though the replacement Sung Eucharist is to be in 'contemporary' language (the sniffy quotation marks are of the Torygraph, not me). I wonder why they've not chosen the traditional language of Common Worship Order Two, in deference to the BCP?

IJ

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Quite so, and perhaps it would indeed have been more diplomatic to, say, alternate Matins with a Sung Eucharist week by week.

BTW, it looks as though the replacement Sung Eucharist is to be in 'contemporary' language (the sniffy quotation marks are of the Torygraph, not me). I wonder why they've not chosen the traditional language of Common Worship Order Two, in deference to the BCP?

IJ

I have noted that delicate point. What I am unsure of at the moment, is whether a traditional language choral Eucharist would have made any difference locally.

Instead of a monthly choral Eucharist as hitherto, a monthly Choral Matins would seem to have been more expedient, with choral Eucharist on other Sundays. I question it would be a good idea to have Matins and Eucharist available on alternate Sundays.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
1115am is a very civilised hour for a service, but makes the words of the Collect '..safely brought us to the beginning of this day...' ring a little ironically, seeing that it'll be nearly noon by the time it's said or sung! Definitely a service for the leisured classes...

Or those who have had a heavy night on Saturday ...

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

[Projectile]

Quite.

I'll get me coat...

IJ

Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :

Completely irrelevant to the thread but I want to say that Bath Abbey was my first Sunday School and where my Sister was baptised. We lived just across the road in Laura Place and therefore the Abbey was our Parish Church. I think my love of Cathedral and Abbey Choirs comes from my subconsciously hearing them every Sunday both before we were 'led out' to Sunday School and as a background to our Teaching.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

BTW, it looks as though the replacement Sung Eucharist is to be in 'contemporary' language (the sniffy quotation marks are of the Torygraph, not me). I wonder why they've not chosen the traditional language of Common Worship Order Two, in deference to the BCP?

IJ

I wonder why you've not put 'traditional' in quotation marks. After all, the traditional language of the liturgy, if that word is misused to mean 'original', is Latin, if not Aramaic. If it simply means, one stage in the ongoing movement of the tradition, then Common Worship 2000 is as traditional as the Sarum Missal, 1549 or 1662,

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Fair comment, and ISWYM. I could have said 'old-fashioned language', but I don't think that 'old-fashioned' is necessarily a Bad Thing!

IJ

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Quite so, and perhaps it would indeed have been more diplomatic to, say, alternate Matins with a Sung Eucharist week by week.

Which is what my little rural parish has done ever since we were told we'd only get a vicar 2 Sundays a month (we've got a lay reader for the other two).

Obviously now we're in a position where if you're going to have a vicar, then you might as well have Holy Communion, but the attendances for Matins are as strong as those for HC.

[ 06. April 2017, 07:06: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I don't know the extent to which it has anything to do with this, but Bath Abbey's longstanding organist recently retired.

I also note that elsewhere it is said that there was a period of seven years of consultation with the congregation, who have mostly approved the change.

It seems to me that the problem here is not a change from Matins to Choral Eucharist but the change from the BCP to Common Worship as the main Sunday service. The church has determined that the majority of the congregation would prefer a service in something approaching the vernacular, and those who don't like it have 4 (count them) other services they could attend, including an 8 o'clock BCP communion.

This seems to be a news report generated by a small number of aggrieved people and given fuel by people who have nothing to do with the church and have not been involved in seven years of consultation and discussion.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Completely irrelevant to the thread but I want to say that Bath Abbey was my first Sunday School and where my Sister was baptised. We lived just across the road in Laura Place and therefore the Abbey was our Parish Church. I think my love of Cathedral and Abbey Choirs comes from my subconsciously hearing them every Sunday both before we were 'led out' to Sunday School and as a background to our Teaching.

Also completely irrelevant to this thread, Bath Abbey has an anticlockwise ringing peal of ten bells - very long draught without rope-guides and not for the faint-hearted! A very long climb of steps up the tower to the ringing room. I rang there once and never again!

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

I am not myself in favour of too rapid change or change without consultation, but from what I read of the rector's letter there has been a 7 year consultation period so it isn't a question of a new rector suddenly ruling as a one man band. I think the 9.30 Service will become more informal and people who prefer a more formal Eucharist may well transfer to thee 11.15. The only reservation I have is that it might have been better to have a Choral Mattins once a month possibly. Most cathedrals and 'Greater Churches' for lack of a better term use the modern language liturgy - I do have a preference for the traditional language but perhaps that's my age and I do feel the Church should not be trapped in a timewarp of the 1950s or 1960s . Change has always occurred and will always be with us, and yes, that can be uncomfortable - very

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

We still have full choral Matins once a month. Figures over the past three years show a steady growth in numbers (granted its a small village so actual numbers not huge) and a typical Matins now has more people than a Parish Eucharist.

It is particularly popular with people who aren't confirmed and/or are new to churchgoing: as one said, it offers a logical pattern and the music is beautiful (not boasting, really!).

Out diocesan is due to come for a Sunday which happens to be a Matins day: he hasn't queried the service and so we're assuming he'll be happy with it (Sumsion canticles, nice long anthem) - watch this space.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I was in Bath a fortnight ago - someone who was there told me that there were people shouing out in favour of Mattins during the Eucharist

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We still have full choral Matins once a month. Figures over the past three years show a steady growth in numbers (granted its a small village so actual numbers not huge) and a typical Matins now has more people than a Parish Eucharist.

It is particularly popular with people who aren't confirmed and/or are new to churchgoing: as one said, it offers a logical pattern and the music is beautiful (not boasting, really!).

Is it common for baptized but not confirmed adults in the C of E to refrain from receiving communion - or is it commonly taught that they should not?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Is it common for baptized but not confirmed adults in the C of E to refrain from receiving communion - or is it commonly taught that they should not?

I'd guess it might depend on which bit of the CofE you are familiar with, but in much of it communion is commonly offered to anyone who requests it, and in parts is routinely given to children, confirmed or not.

I don't think there is (often) teaching that suggests being confirmed is any barrier.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I was in Bath a fortnight ago - someone who was there told me that there were people shouing out in favour of Mattins during the Eucharist

How would that work?

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Well it's quite easy to disrupt a service if you really want to......

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

'The Lord be with you.'
'NO - GIVE US MATTINS!!!!'

'The Peace of the Lord be always with you.'
'ON YER BIKE - GIVE US MATTINS!!!!'

..and so on.

I jest a little, but it's hardly seemly, or edifying, if anyone does/has done it.

IJ

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I was in Bath a fortnight ago - someone who was there told me that there were people shouing out in favour of Mattins during the Eucharist
How would that work?

I wasn't there but i imagine 'What do we want?....When do we want it?.'
I quite like the thought of members of the Prayer Book Society 'disrupting divine service'.)

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
'The Lord be with you.'
'NO - GIVE US MATTINS!!!!'

'The Peace of the Lord be always with you.'
'ON YER BIKE - GIVE US MATTINS!!!!'

..and so on.

I jest a little, but it's hardly seemly, or edifying, if anyone does/has done it.

IJ

Get tee-shirts made up!

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

I was just thinking it was just as well the Abbey doesn't have comfy chairs......the spirit of Jenny Geddes lives on.....!!!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Perhaps in lieu of a stool, it would be more appropriate to throw a china tea service.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I was in Bath a fortnight ago - someone who was there told me that there were people shouing out in favour of Mattins during the Eucharist
How would that work?
I wasn't there but i imagine 'What do we want?....When do we want it?.'
I quite like the thought of members of the Prayer Book Society 'disrupting divine service'.)

I was more in liturgical geek mode wondering how you would incorporate Mattins into the Eucharistic Prayer.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

You could do. I think it's called Frankenmass although I don't know why - use Mattins as the Liturgy of the Word, end with the third collect, Peace,hymn and offertory and Bob's your uncle.....

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
You could do. I think it's called Frankenmass although I don't know why - use Mattins as the Liturgy of the Word, end with the third collect, Peace,hymn and offertory and Bob's your uncle.....

Why not go the whole hog and revert to the C19 practice, Morning Prayer, followed by Litany, followed by Holy Communion, but ending before things move on to consecration if there was nobody who had notified of an intention to receive. If the sermon was less an hour people were being short-changed. I think it usually came after the Communion readings.

Best in an unheated church in winter.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Why not go the whole hog and revert to the C19 practice, Morning Prayer, followed by Litany, followed by Holy Communion, but ending before things move on to consecration if there was nobody who had notified of an intention to receive. If the sermon was less an hour people were being short-changed. I think it usually came after the Communion readings.

Best in an unheated church in winter.

Except the toffs used to have their private pews complete with fireplace, and attendant flunkeys plying them with warming alcoholic beverages.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Why not go the whole hog and revert to the C19 practice, Morning Prayer, followed by Litany, followed by Holy Communion, but ending before things move on to consecration if there was nobody who had notified of an intention to receive. If the sermon was less an hour people were being short-changed. I think it usually came after the Communion readings.

Best in an unheated church in winter.
Except the toffs used to have their private pews complete with fireplace, and attendant flunkeys plying them with warming alcoholic beverages.

And some would've made sure their servants brought along hot-water bottles (the old fashioned stone kind wrapped in a blanket).

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Why not go the whole hog and revert to the C19 practice, Morning Prayer, followed by Litany, followed by Holy Communion, but ending before things move on to consecration if there was nobody who had notified of an intention to receive. If the sermon was less an hour people were being short-changed. I think it usually came after the Communion readings.

Best in an unheated church in winter.
Except the toffs used to have their private pews complete with fireplace, and attendant flunkeys plying them with warming alcoholic beverages.
And some would've made sure their servants brought along hot-water bottles (the old fashioned stone kind wrapped in a blanket).

Quite apart from the hot water bottles, we are living in a different age and nowadys, I don't think there would any longer be the support for the combined three-service session.

Peoples' worshipping needs have changed and forms of service that worked in the past, would not work today, which is why Matins has largely (but not entirely) disappeared.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

...and yet, as we've seen on this thread and elsewhere, there are churches which report that when they have reinstated or continued with Mattins it attracts larger congregations than they had expected, and IIRC in some cases higher than for Eucharistic services. Seems that mattins may not be for everyone but that it does meet a real need for some types of worshipper in some places.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
...and yet, as we've seen on this thread and elsewhere, there are churches which report that when they have reinstated or continued with Mattins it attracts larger congregations than they had expected, and IIRC in some cases higher than for Eucharistic services. Seems that mattins may not be for everyone but that it does meet a real need for some types of worshipper in some places.

Indeed - whisper it - maybe the weekly parish Eucharist has had its day... Having moved to a village which has 2 Mattins and 2 HC a month (from a parish with a daily 8am HC and an 8am HC, 11am High Mass and 1730 evensong on Sundays) I have been surprised a) how quickly I adapted to it, and b) how much I've actually come to appreciate the Mattins weeks and the rhythms of the service.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

I have nothing against the office of Mattins,it is a good introduction to the service of word and sacrament,the Eucharist.
However it should never be the main service whether in a parish church or cathedral.
This is reversing the clock.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

That's all very well, and, indeed, Cranmer himself intended Mattins to be the prelude to the Eucharist. However, for many years Mattins was the principal Sunday service in most churches and cathedrals, and the Eucharist remained an infrequent occurrence until the Oxford Movement, and, later on, the Parish Communion Movement.

These days, alas, the shortage of clergy means that many parishes, whether they like it or not, have to vary their liturgical diet. If it works for some as encouragingly as it does for betjemaniac's church, well and good, but it's no good getting on a high horse and decrying the practice.

IJ

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I have nothing against the office of Mattins,it is a good introduction to the service of word and sacrament,the Eucharist.
However it should never be the main service whether in a parish church or cathedral.
This is reversing the clock.

I'd love to be able to get to Westminster Abbey regularly. It's wonderful to attend a Choral Matins followed by the Abbey Eucharist, both with choir and each with its own sermon. That's the ideal, IMHO. Not possible everywhere, I know.

Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Quite so, and perhaps it would indeed have been more diplomatic to, say, alternate Matins with a Sung Eucharist week by week.

This is the pattern at my US parish church. When the previous rector retired one of the key priorities to come out of the discernment process was a strong preference for the maintenance of this pattern (there are 3 other communion services on Sunday, and Choral Evensong every other Sunday.

quote:
BTW, it looks as though the replacement Sung Eucharist is to be in 'contemporary' language

This is exactly what happened at Exeter Cathedral some years ago. Choral Mattins at 11.15 was summarily dropped, replaced by CW Eucharist an hour earlier.

The communion service was always much better attended than Mattins, but the latter had a healthy congregation. The burden to the choir was the official reason cited for the change.

As an Olde Language snob and an aggressively not-a-morning person, I have found a different church home when in Exeter.

I remember thinking it cold comfort at the time when the Dean wrote 'this change will no doubt be a loss to some.'

On an unrelated note, I find it ironic that Choral Mattins for years and years was sustained only by cathedral and large parishes who had the choral establishment to support it; but lately has experienced an apparent resurgence in places that cannot rely on a priest's presence weekly.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I have nothing against the office of Mattins,it is a good introduction to the service of word and sacrament,the Eucharist.
However it should never be the main service whether in a parish church or cathedral.
This is reversing the clock.
I'd love to be able to get to Westminster Abbey regularly. It's wonderful to attend a Choral Matins followed by the Abbey Eucharist, both with choir and each with its own sermon. That's the ideal, IMHO. Not possible everywhere, I know.

You must have a strong bladder!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Mattins in a small church setting need not (nay, should not) try to emulate the grand choral offerings of Cathedrals and Places Where They Sing.

Simple sung versicles/responses, said or metrical Psalm(s), said Creed/Collects/Prayers, well-known chants for Venite, Te Deum, and Benedictus, a couple or three of decent hymns, and there yer go!

IJ

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

[Confession time]

Bless me fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, for I have sinned.

For much of my ministry I loathed Matins and Evensong. I was a Eucharist addict. I felt it was the only liturgy with shape, purpose, meaning.

When I was made a cathedral Dean I accepted that I must accommodate this bland historic aberration. Sigh.

I fell in love. I am a trigamist. I love all three in equal parts.

OMG what shall I do?

(PS .. not a Dean anymore, so can't go back ... close to a tripartite divorce through irreconcilable breakdown of relationship ... but happy memories remain ... tender ... nostalgic )

[/Confession time]

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
You must have a strong bladder!

"Bladder of steel," it's been called, as I flew from Toronto to Edinburgh without leaving my window seat. And from Chicago to London. Where I had no need for the loo at the Abbey.

[Biased]

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by Angloid:

quote:

You must have a strong bladder!

I thought you were breaking into an alternative form of the Urbs there.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
... Many cathedrals and greater parish churches have painlessly reduced and even phased out Choral Matins ...

The custom at our place (Christ Church Cathedral, Fredericton) is Choral Matins on the fifth Sunday of the month when there is one, which suits me.

I don't dislike Matins (and there are some very fine settings of the Canticles which I wouldn't like to lose out on singing), but it never strikes me as having the perfect balance of Evensong.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

ISTM that the reason for that ill balance, in contrast to Evensong, may be due (a) to the unvarying use of the Venite, rather than going straight to the Psalms, and (b) having the Benedictus in the Wrong Place.

As with Magnificat at Evensong, the Gospel Canticle properly goes between the OT and NT readings. The Te Deum doesn't really to seem to be in the right place at Mattins.

YMMV.

IJ

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

What our so-called liturgical purists have never addressed is that they - CofE and RC - have entirely misrepresented the way the Mass was for hundreds of years in that Matins was always the lead-in to the Mass. When we read of people going to Mass daily it doesn't mean some quick, 20 minute thing: it was full Matins up to the creed, then into the communion service. It follows, therefore, that for churches to just dump Matins means they are dumping part of the Mass.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

That's not right - Frankenmass was a Victorian thing.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Just to go back a bit -

Ecclesiastical Flip-Flop wrote:

quote:
Many cathedrals and greater parish churches have painlessly reduced and even phased out Choral Matins completely.

I don't know about greater parish churches. But round here (and I've just checked eight of them) choral mattins is still in fine fettle. Only one of the eight (Bristol) has either downgraded it or never had it as a choral service. The times I have been to Winchester suggest that it is as popular broadly as the Choral Eucharist. And having done stand-in choral work in many of them, my recollection of numbers elsewhere was similar. Is this a geographic thing by any chance?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Leo, I'm not sure I agree with you. It depends what you mean by Frankenmass. If you mean omitting any part of the services when they were combined with another, yes, that was something that only came in from c 1870 onwards. Before then, it would have been illegal.

It's quite difficult to ascertain what really happened before all the changes in the mid C19. There's nobody around who can remember. To those that were around, it was so 'what always happened' that no one really bothered to record it.

Before that, what I think you were likely to get was:-

- The Morning Hymn Awake my soul.
- Possibly an extra metrical psalm.
- Morning Prayer strictly by the BCP, Venite replaced by Christ our Passover on Easter Sunday. Psalm(s) of the day+, Te Deum or Benedicite++, Benedictus or Jubilate, Quicunque Vult in stead of Apostles' Creed on certain days of the year.
- After third collect, Quire and/or band displays its virtuosity with an anthem, often a florid setting of a metrical psalm with fuguing parts and repeats.
- Morning Prayer ends as per 1662 BCP and service proceeds straight on to
- Litany
- possibly another metrical psalm or after about 1820 a hymn.
- Communion starts, and proceeds as far as Nicene Creed,
- Sermon.
- After that, there's a slight uncertainty what happened on a non-Communion Sunday. Because the church was funded from the rates and pew rents, there wouldn't usually be any collection. But according to the book, that was where there was any collection for a special purpose.
In theory it is possible the Prayer for Church Militant followed every week and if there was no Communion, that marked the end of the service. But from the way a C18 prayer book is set out, it is possible the Prayer for Church Militant may only have been included if there was Communion.
- If there was no Communion, there would probably have been another metrical psalm or after about 1820 a hymn.
- Then, service ends.
- If any persons have given notice that they intend to receive, this then followed by the remainder of Holy Communion, starting with Exhortation.
It was quite possible that the rest of the congregation would have been allowed to leave then, and the communicants would have moved into different pews.

Bearing in mind that sermons were very long, services must have seemed interminable. It is no wonder that Parson Woodford frequently records very low attendances, particularly in winter.

+ It's quite difficult to find out whether the psalms and canticles at the appointed points in the service were always said as per 1662, or whether in some places metrical versions were sung inside the service rather than before or after it. Metrical versions of the prescribed canticles exist as also do early C19 pre-Oxford movement settings for congregational chanting of them. But 'psalmody' normally meant singing the Old or New Versions in metre. Almost every pre-Oxford movement prayer book came with one or the other version (occasionally both) bound into it. Apart possibly from cathedral choirs, I don't think anyone tried to sing prose psalms much before about 1850.

++ There are complaints at least as far back as the C18 about the prevalence of people shortening the Benedicite by batching the verses in threes.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Leo, I'm not sure I agree with you. It depends what you mean by Frankenmass. If you mean omitting any part of the services when they were combined with another, yes, that was something that only came in from c 1870 onwards. Before then, it would have been illegal.

That's what I meant - the 'cut and shut' MP ending with the Jubilate an going straight to the north end for the Lord's Prayer and Collect for Purity. (As I witnessed in evangelical hin the 1950s pre-Keswick).

Before that, as you rightly point out, it was full MP, then the Litany....

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Just to go back a bit -

Ecclesiastical Flip-Flop wrote:
quote:
Many cathedrals and greater parish churches have painlessly reduced and even phased out Choral Matins completely.
I don't know about greater parish churches. But round here (and I've just checked eight of them) choral mattins is still in fine fettle. Only one of the eight (Bristol) has either downgraded it or never had it as a choral service. The times I have been to Winchester suggest that it is as popular broadly as the Choral Eucharist. And having done stand-in choral work in many of them, my recollection of numbers elsewhere was similar. Is this a geographic thing by any chance?

Fine fettle does not have to be weekly.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Indeed, but all the ones I looked at, with the exception of Canterbury, were.

Not intended as a scientific survey - I was only looking at Cathedrals across the south from Canterbury to Exeter. But as I said, my own experience has been that this service remains well-supported in cathedrals.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Leo, I'm not sure I agree with you. It depends what you mean by Frankenmass. If you mean omitting any part of the services when they were combined with another, yes, that was something that only came in from c 1870 onwards. Before then, it would have been illegal.
That's what I meant - the 'cut and shut' MP ending with the Jubilate an going straight to the north end for the Lord's Prayer and Collect for Purity. (As I witnessed in evangelical hin the 1950s pre-Keswick).

Before that, as you rightly point out, it was full MP, then the Litany....

Frankenmass - one shipmate who was a fan of that, who has stopped posting for whatever reason was PD. PD, originally from UK, settled in the USA and became the Presiding Bishop of his continuing and breakaway Anglican Episcopal Church, whilst remaining Rector of his Church in Arizona.

PD had Frankenmass at his church on certain Sundays and used to post about it. Apart from him, Frankenmass seems to have disappeared and I would be at a loss to know where to find it now. Obviously, it is combined MP and HC (or even EP and HC), so as to have one service and not two services. Frankenmass would appeal to me if ever I found it.

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Leo, I'm not sure I agree with you. It depends what you mean by Frankenmass. If you mean omitting any part of the services when they were combined with another, yes, that was something that only came in from c 1870 onwards. Before then, it would have been illegal.
That's what I meant - the 'cut and shut' MP ending with the Jubilate an going straight to the north end for the Lord's Prayer and Collect for Purity. (As I witnessed in evangelical hin the 1950s pre-Keswick).

Before that, as you rightly point out, it was full MP, then the Litany....
Frankenmass - one shipmate who was a fan of that, who has stopped posting for whatever reason was PD. PD, originally from UK, settled in the USA and became the Presiding Bishop of his continuing and breakaway Anglican Episcopal Church, whilst remaining Rector of his Church in Arizona.

PD had Frankenmass at his church on certain Sundays and used to post about it. Apart from him, Frankenmass seems to have disappeared and I would be at a loss to know where to find it now. Obviously, it is combined MP and HC (or even EP and HC), so as to have one service and not two services. Frankenmass would appeal to me if ever I found it.

I believe - though I haven't been for a few years now - it is still used for the daily Eucharist at Salisbury Cathedral.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I believe - though I haven't been for a few years now - it is still used for the daily Eucharist at Salisbury Cathedral.

I have just looked this up and at Salisbury Cathedral is advertised Monday to Saturday 07.30 Morning Worship with Holy Communion (presumably aka Frankenmass).

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Similarly, our local Cathedral has Morning Prayer and Holy Communion on several weekday mornings at 8'o clock, using Common Worship.

IJ

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Having been to it when attending something at Sarum College, the weekday daily early service in Salisbury Cathedral is said and is a combination of Common Worship Daily Prayer, Mornings, and Common Worship Holy Communion.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Do they have the Psalms, Canticles, and readings for MP, and also the Epistle and Gospel for the Eucharist? It must make for a longish service if they do!

IJ

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Perhaps this proves that I'm not a true Ecclesiantic and should not be posting on this board, but I'm afraid I can't remember. It's not an overwhelmingly long service. So I think they must have the readings for only one of the two services. I think they come in the Morning Prayer section.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Having been to it when attending something at Sarum College, the weekday daily early service in Salisbury Cathedral is said and is a combination of Common Worship Daily Prayer, Mornings, and Common Worship Holy Communion.

At that early hour, I take it for granted that the service is said, rather than sung. The name of the service sometimes gives a clue, though I don't think it can be relied upon too much. Morning Prayer if said, or Matins if sung, but not necessarily.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

That seems to be the distinction here as well, with 'Evensong' denoting Choral, and 'Evening Prayer' as said, too.

IJ

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Do they have the Psalms, Canticles, and readings for MP, and also the Epistle and Gospel for the Eucharist? It must make for a longish service if they do!

IJ

Not that I remember - but I was there a long time ago.

The MP readings act as the mass readings - indeed, the C of E weekday lectionary always provides for a gospel lection as one of the NT options.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

The Irish model for the CofI for services was very much Matins followed by the Litany followed by Holy Communion (all BCP and all in full). Some places appear to have had a little ten minutes break between the Litany and Eucharist to allow folk to come and some to go. Over the years this morphed into what became commonly called 'Mangled Matins' as others have described above. This model persisted in many parishes right up until the 1970's but I don't believe I've heard of it being done like this anywhere these days. However, many places just had Matins on its own many a Sunday.

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Do they have the Psalms, Canticles, and readings for MP, and also the Epistle and Gospel for the Eucharist? It must make for a longish service if they do!

IJ

As I say it is a few years since I've been (when I was a student at Sarum College actually), but then they used the canticle and Benedictus as set in CW:DP, and the psalm and readings from DEL.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
That seems to be the distinction here as well, with 'Evensong' denoting Choral, and 'Evening Prayer' as said, too.

IJ

That logically follows on, regarding the evening office, from my above point about the morning office. I was keeping it relatively simple.

Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :

I sometimes attended a Central London church in the 1980's where three Sundays out of four we had Choral Matins followed by Said Eucharist beginning at the penitential rite. The fourth Sunday was Sung Eucharist, all services from the BCP. Sadly I know of no churches today with such liturgical excellence. Towards the end of last year I visited the same church to find all Sunday services to be the Eucharist from Common Worship. Next time I go to London to worship I will likely go to Westminster Abbey where at least Matins still exists.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I sometimes attended a Central London church in the 1980's where three Sundays out of four we had Choral Matins followed by Said Eucharist beginning at the penitential rite. The fourth Sunday was Sung Eucharist, all services from the BCP. Sadly I know of no churches today with such liturgical excellence. Towards the end of last year I visited the same church to find all Sunday services to be the Eucharist from Common Worship. Next time I go to London to worship I will likely go to Westminster Abbey where at least Matins still exists.

There are occasional exceptions about Sunday Matins at Westminster Abbey - Check! Most Sundays in the year, there is Choral Matins at St. Paul's Cathedral, London, but beware of Sundays in July!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Heed the warning! Choral Mattins is the first to go at our Cathedral if other events intervene.

For example, the Sung Eucharist is now and then re-timed to 930am, instead of 1030am, if there is some sort of civic or state service in the later slot, and this means that 945am Mattins has to go...

IJ

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I sometimes attended a Central London church in the 1980's where three Sundays out of four we had Choral Matins followed by Said Eucharist beginning at the penitential rite.... Sadly I know of no churches today with such liturgical excellence.

'Liturgical excellence' seems a strange way to describe such a truncated eucharistic liturgy. The 1662 rite in itself is a distorted version of the traditional rite, but to omit such a significant section of it seems rather perverse. I wonder how many admirers of the (admittedly sublime) language actually believe or understand any of the theology behind it.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I sometimes attended a Central London church in the 1980's where three Sundays out of four we had Choral Matins followed by Said Eucharist beginning at the penitential rite.... Sadly I know of no churches today with such liturgical excellence.
'Liturgical excellence' seems a strange way to describe such a truncated eucharistic liturgy. The 1662 rite in itself is a distorted version of the traditional rite, but to omit such a significant section of it seems rather perverse. I wonder how many admirers of the (admittedly sublime) language actually believe or understand any of the theology behind it.

Not all worshippers who turn up for a "stay behind" Communion after Matins, have attended the Matins service that precedes it. Thus, by starting the Communion service, with the penitential rite, means that such worshippers have missed out on the elements that include the Ministry of the Word.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

Not all worshippers who turn up for a "stay behind" Communion after Matins, have attended the Matins service that precedes it. Thus, by starting the Communion service, with the penitential rite, means that such worshippers have missed out on the elements that include the Ministry of the Word.

This rather depends on where you think the penitential rite comes ...

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

We're talking BCP so the penitential rite' comes after the prayer for the Church militant.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We're talking BCP so the penitential rite' comes after the prayer for the Church militant.

I took that for granted in posting above.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

The MP readings act as the mass readings - indeed, the C of E weekday lectionary always provides for a gospel lection as one of the NT options.

There's only an inevitible gosoel on Sundays and major festivals. On weeekdays there may not be a gospel, hence I'm sure I remember Salisbury used the mass readings in the truncated Mattins

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I spoke to a liturgically au fait friend some time back who gave me an amused account of a Sung Eucharist at Bath Abbey. As I remember, there appeared to be little sense of either the shape of the liturgy or its power. The service appeared to my friend to be dominated by the sort of sentimental, ingratiating, personal material I could all too well imagine the triter sort of suburban Family Communion.

The objectors at the Abbey don’t seem very sympathetic to me (and I would go to the stake for the Eucharist as the principal Sunday service) but I suspect their concern is the loss of formality. I would sympathize with that, but I might start another thread on the place of formality in worship.

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