Ship of Fools: MW Report 3148: All Saints of the the Desert, Sun City, Arizona,

Thread: MW Report 3148: All Saints of the the Desert, Sun City, Arizona, Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=008479

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

In this report, I am mystified that the MWer hankers after what can have only been a local custom i.e. he remembers the Good Friday liturgy ending with an ‘overturned ciborium’.

In the Tridentine form, as outlined in Fortescue, there is no ciborium at all but a paten. The rubric demands that any consecrated hosts be removed to a tabernacle in the sacristy or outside the church altogether (clergy house?) After all, the Blessed Sacrament needs to be available to those at the point of death.

The modern rubrics say the same for a ciborium

The MW’er also deplores the abbreviation of the collects in the solemn prayers – this is also permitted in the rubrics also allow for special intentions.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Link to report.

You did note, did you not, that this is an Episcopal church, not Roman Catholic?

[ 16. April 2017, 12:31: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

What would upset me is not being allowed to venerate the cross by kissing it, which again this year I found deeply moving.

I've never come across an overturned ciborium, although the MWer was obviously used to it. How wide spread is this custom in TEC?

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

I've attended Good Friday services at many churches as a life-long Episcopalian. I've never seen (or even heard of) an overturned ciborium.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Me again (now that I've read the report). I also haven't heard the Reproaches in an Episcopal church since the late 60s. IIRC, they were considered "anti-semetic" and are not part of the Good Friday Liturgy (or anywhere else in the BCP or even in the Book of Occasional Services).

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

This is an American Episcopal church, leo. My guess is that the Tridentine form, Fortescue notwithstanding, or rubrics promulgated by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops carry little if any weight, if notice is taken of them at all. The rubrics of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer liturgy for Good Friday (or other liturgies promulgated by TEC) and ceremonial guides pertaining thereto, are, I'd imagine, the relevant sources for how to conduct the service.

Besides, even if it is local custom, if it's what the MWer is accustomed to and finds meaningful, why wouldn't he or she miss it?

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Me again (now that I've read the report). I also haven't heard the Reproaches in an Episcopal church since the late 60s. IIRC, they were considered "anti-semetic" and are not part of the Good Friday Liturgy (or anywhere else in the BCP or even in the Book of Occasional Services).

I have. Aren't they in the BCP? (I'm not where I can check.)

Perhaps they used a version similar to the version found in the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship, revised to deal with the anti-semitism and offering a reproach to those who made God's chosen people a scapegoat for their own guilt.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

Sorry for the third post in a row, and sorry for posting while distracted: you already answered the question about the Solemn Reproaches being in the BCP and I missed it.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

I've attended Good Friday service twice at St. Mary's, which is the Anglo-Catholic parish par excellence here in Phoenix, and both times they did the Reproaches and left an overturned ciborium on the altar after communion.

You are correct, Pigwidgeon -- the Reproaches are not prescribed by the Prayer Book, but "other suitable anthems" are permitted during the veneration of the cross (BCP, p. 281).

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I believe that the MWer is a former RC - that is whyy I mentioned Fortescue since that is what he would have experienced before.

Yes, I know that the church wasn't RC but most of us Anglicans used the Roman Rite as a guide, especially before our own Triduum liturgies were introduced in the late 1960s.

The C of E has 3 alternative reproaches which seek to avoid anti-Semitism.

Maybe the reason why the priest alone venerated the cross is that Anglicans tend to find the kissing aspect a bit over the top. For this reason, I introduced white paper crossesd into our version some years back - people kneel before the cross and then place their crosses on or by it as a symbol of offering their lives. I alone, as presider, kiss it. The Roman Rite gives an option for 'corporate veneraion'.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I also note that the other church tio which Amanda aludes doesd teo 'illegal' thingd in its Holy Week programme - Tenbrae; Compline to finish the Maundy Watch.

So I wouldn't consider it to be normative anglo-catholic.

That being said, it looks like a good place.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe the reason why the priest alone venerated the cross is that Anglicans tend to find the kissing aspect a bit over the top.

Even in a RC church, what I usually do is kiss my index and middle finger and then press them to the feet of the Corpus. That, or simply bow before the cross without kissing anything.

[ 16. April 2017, 21:37: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Unless black scarf (tippet) is the normal eucharistic vesture in that church (unlikely) I can't understand why the priest wore it in preference to a red stole (if not chasuble). Red is the colour of victory and kingship; black that of despair and mourning. RC and C of E rules both suggest the former; I don't know about TEC but it would seem odd if not.

I too would miss being able to venerate the cross, but for some Anglicans it is a step too far and pastoral sensitivities need to be respected.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I'm certainly not suggesting people should be forced to kiss the cross, or even go up to it, but it would be a great shame if those who did want to do so were denied the chance.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Precisely. In any Good Friday service I've ever attended, it was made clear that veneration was optional, and that people choosing to venerate could do so under a variety of forms as they saw fit.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
... Yes, I know that the church wasn't RC but most of us Anglicans used the Roman Rite as a guide, especially before our own Triduum liturgies were introduced in the late 1960s.

Do we? I acknowledge that Leo and I are different in churchmanship, but I think most of the rest of us are fairly ignorant as to how the RCs do things, not all that bothered and regard Times and Seasons etc as the usual source to get things from.

quote:

... Maybe the reason why the priest alone venerated the cross is that Anglicans tend to find the kissing aspect a bit over the top. ...

I agree and I think that's a profound comment. An English convert to Orthodoxy said something similar to me a few years ago.

We, who I repeat are of a different churchmanship to Leo, have a full sized cross set up in the church on Good Friday, which people can go and kneel in front of if they wish. Quite a lot do, but quite a lot don't and prefer to meditate in silence at their places.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leo:
[qb] ... Yes, I know that the church wasn't RC but most of us Anglicans used the Roman Rite as a guide, especially before our own Triduum liturgies were introduced in the late 1960s.

quote:

I think leo is referring to the (many) years before Times and Seasons. For a long time the only guide for anything liturgical in Holy Week, apart from the very sparse provisions in the BCP, was the Roman rite. Of course, that didn't bother either those who would have preferred to use the Roman rite for everything, or those who were quite happy with non-liturgical meditations and prayer services. Since the Parish Communion movement the majority of MOTR and higher parishes have become more liturgical in their celebration of Holy Week.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Unless black scarf (tippet) is the normal eucharistic vesture in that church (unlikely) I can't understand why the priest wore it in preference to a red stole (if not chasuble). Red is the colour of victory and kingship; black that of despair and mourning. RC and C of E rules both suggest the former; I don't know about TEC but it would seem odd if not.

I too would miss being able to venerate the cross, but for some Anglicans it is a step too far and pastoral sensitivities need to be respected.

The MWer also talked of a black tippet being worn on Ash Wednesday in another report, for which i took him to task at the time.

Maybe using different terminology - I reckon it was a black stole.

Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :

Years ago my (Episcopal) church did have an overturned ciborium on the altar at the end of the Good Friday service. After the at the time priest left, this was discontinued, and I've never seen it done in any other church.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by leo:
[qb] ... Yes, I know that the church wasn't RC but most of us Anglicans used the Roman Rite as a guide, especially before our own Triduum liturgies were introduced in the late 1960s.
Do we? I acknowledge that Leo and I are different in churchmanship, but I think most of the rest of us are fairly ignorant as to how the RCs do things, not all that bothered and regard Times and Seasons etc as the usual source to get things from.
quote:

I think leo is referring to the (many) years before Times and Seasons. For a long time the only guide for anything liturgical in Holy Week, apart from the very sparse provisions in the BCP, was the Roman rite. Of course, that didn't bother either those who would have preferred to use the Roman rite for everything, or those who were quite happy with non-liturgical meditations and prayer services. Since the Parish Communion movement the majority of MOTR and higher parishes have become more liturgical in their celebration of Holy Week.

I can only speak for the Canadian situation where, for the most part, Holy Week observance is generally relatively recent. In days past, the few dozen spiky parishes in Canada divided between a Dearmerite approach to Holy Week and a rendition of the Latin church's practice. During the liturgical churn of the 1970s and 1980s, the revised Latin triduum got greater influence in those circles, while the larger MOTR parishes increased their observance considerably beyond the Good Friday service using the BAS with a bit of pillaging from RC practice as years progressed and the whiff of popery became less poisonous. From a quick scan, about half of parishes still have nothing more than a Maundy Thursday and Good Friday service and of those, some quite a bit less-- others, more observant than I, might have a better picture.

Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on :

When living in New York City I found that individual veneration of the cross seemed the norm in liturgical TEC churches. Here in New England it is rare. In those places here distributing from the Reserved Sacrament the clergy consume the leftovers at the credence and do the ablutions there. The cup and paten are then left there uncovered. However, the tabernacle door is then usually left open or ajar perhaps giving the same message as the inverted ciborium , that the Sacrament is no longer present.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
When living in New York City I found that individual veneration of the cross seemed the norm in liturgical TEC churches. Here in New England it is rare. In those places here distributing from the Reserved Sacrament the clergy consume the leftovers at the credence and do the ablutions there. The cup and paten are then left there uncovered. However, the tabernacle door is then usually left open or ajar perhaps giving the same message as the inverted ciborium , that the Sacrament is no longer present.

My training incumbent (CofE) did this on Good Friday. I have half a memory, too, that he would put either the cup or the ciborium, or paten-on-a-stand in such a way as to indicate they were empty, or not being used eg, on their side, something like that. They would be left on the table in that way throughout the hours of meditation.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
When living in New York City I found that individual veneration of the cross seemed the norm in liturgical TEC churches. Here in New England it is rare. In those places here distributing from the Reserved Sacrament the clergy consume the leftovers at the credence and do the ablutions there. The cup and paten are then left there uncovered. However, the tabernacle door is then usually left open or ajar perhaps giving the same message as the inverted ciborium , that the Sacrament is no longer present.

Tangent -

Those parishes that consume the leftover Blessed Sacrament at the altar after distributing it on Good Friday - have they set aside an emergency supply just in case if someone is gravely ill between the Good Friday service and the Easter Vigil?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
When living in New York City I found that individual veneration of the cross seemed the norm in liturgical TEC churches. Here in New England it is rare. In those places here distributing from the Reserved Sacrament the clergy consume the leftovers at the credence and do the ablutions there. The cup and paten are then left there uncovered. However, the tabernacle door is then usually left open or ajar perhaps giving the same message as the inverted ciborium , that the Sacrament is no longer present.
Tangent -

Those parishes that consume the leftover Blessed Sacrament at the altar after distributing it on Good Friday - have they set aside an emergency supply just in case if someone is gravely ill between the Good Friday service and the Easter Vigil?

Yes.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0