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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Can these hymn numbers be tied to a season?
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
Probably a wild goose chase, but can anyone suggest a hymnbook in which numbers 447, 438, 261 and 27 would fit into a liturgical season?
I've just bought a postcard of a parish church interior in Essex, England, which I'm guessing is probably pre 1930, and those numbers are prominent on the hymn board.
Fundamentally I'm curious and I can think of only one place where I might just find someone who knows.
Thanks,
Adrian
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
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JH
Apprentice
# 17310
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Posted
The Oremus Hymnal has useful numerical indexes of historical and current hymnbooks.
In Hymns Ancient & Modern standard edition those numbers correspond to
447 - Soldiers, who are Christ's below
438 - How bright these glorious spirits shine
261 - Blest are the pure in heart
027 - Abide with me; fast falls the eventide
[ 11. May 2017, 23:00: Message edited by: JH ]
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The Book of Worship for United States Forces could mount a great Christmas service with those:
447 Enter, O People of God
438 Spirit Divine, Attend Our Prayer
261 The Virgin Mary Had a Baby Boy
027 Jesus, the Very Thought of Thee
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The Book of Worship for United States Forces could mount a great Christmas service with those:
...and this is just the sort of reason I asked - it completely doesn't answer my question, but is a great tangent. And I love the thought of Ancient and Mouldy.
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
This is a fun game, but obviously depends on some kind of foresight of the hymn-chooser. I suspect it is likely to be Ancient and Prehistoric, but then I'm not sure how often Abide with Me was actually sung congregationally. That seems a bit unlikely as a final hymn choice to me.
The The Church Hymnal Revised, 1920 has some interesting choices:
447 Triumphant Zion, lift thy head
438 The spacious firmament on high
261 Fierce was the wild billow
027 The day thou gavest, Lord, is ended
It probably isn't The English Hymnal 1906 either - the last is a Christmas hymn and doesn't seem to go with the others:
447 O God of Bethel, by whose hand
438 Love of the Father, Love of God the Son
261 O God of truth, O Lord of might
027 Let sighing cease and woe
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arse
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
I'll have to see if I can post a link to the picture tonight - no clues to the season that I can see, but you never know.
I don't think there can be a definitive answer, but it is fun, isn't it?
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Assuming the photograph was taken on a weekday, the hymns could have been there from Evensong on the previous Sunday, in which case, Abide with me or The Day thou gavest are both possible final hymns.
As for seasons, there are a lot of Sundays after Trinity.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
AWM and TDTGLIE were both popular final hymns at Evensong in the Church Of My Yoof. As for the others, they would do for All Saints'/All Souls'-tide or Remembrance Sunday.
I think Ancient and Morbid is right for the hymnbook.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I hadn't thought of Remembrance Sunday, of course that would make sense - particularly if it was in the years following WW1.
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arse
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Evangelical Lutheran Worship
447 O Blessed Spring
438 My Lord, What a Morning
261 Joy to the World
27--actually Psalm 27
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It is highly unlikely that a rural Anglican church in the 1930s would use a Lutheran Hymn Book.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
There is the (possibly urban legend) account of the CoE chaplaincy in Menton, just between Monaco and Italy, where the hymn numbers were taken from the board after the chaplain learned that sinners among his congregants were using them as good luck numbers at the Casino in Monaco.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The edition of Songs of Praise from 1931 would give you
447 And did thou love the race that loved not thee
438 All as God wills, who widely heeds
261 And now O Father, mindful of the love
27 Come, thou bright and morning star
While I'm not overly familiar with the first two, the whole lot would suit a communion service in Advent.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I hadn't thought of Remembrance Sunday, of course that would make sense - particularly if it was in the years following WW1.
Yes, that would seem very appropriate wouldn't it - Evensong of Remembrance Sunday is probably the best bet we're going to have.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Here is a challenge; in what hymn book is hymn 851 All Things Bright and Beautiful?
I had this at school, decades ago, when I was eight and I remember to this day.
No prizes for getting the right answer!
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Would a church have used Songs of Praise? I've always associated it with schools.
If the postcard is between the wars, I'd have thought it was almost bound to be A&M the original version of the English Hymnal or Church Hymnal. For the sound reason already given, English Hymnal doesn't fit. So it's between the other two. What do the furnishings look like like in the photograph? Is it possible to get any idea whether it's MOTR or low?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Here is a challenge; in what hymn book is hymn 851 All Things Bright and Beautiful?
I had this at school, decades ago, when I was eight and I remember to this day.
No prizes for getting the right answer!
Looks like that's the Methodist hymnbook 1954 - interestingly, it is listed as Each little flower that opens - which of course it is as All things bright and beautiful is the first line of the chorus.
I've never seen it called that before, so I've learned something.
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arse
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Yes, it is All Things bright and Beautiful in my copy of the Methodist Hymn Book.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Looks like that's the Methodist hymnbook 1954 - interestingly, it is listed as Each little flower that opens - which of course it is as All things bright and beautiful is the first line of the chorus.
Should be dated 1933 - in 1954 they just updated the biography and a little of the text
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
as to the OP, from John Wesley's "A Collection of Hymns For the use of the people called Methodists" (1876) the four numbers given would be:
447 - Messiah Prince of peace
438 - O God of peace and pardoning love
261 - Come, Father, Son and Holy Ghost
27 - Saviour, the world's and mine
Well that's four for a service soon then
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What do the furnishings look like like in the photograph? Is it possible to get any idea whether it's MOTR or low?
Here it is:
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It appears to have a curtain round three sides of the altar, boxing it in, and a rather nondescript late C19 early C20 screen. You don't often see those curtains now, but they were quite common between about 1920 and 1970. As that necessitated celebration 'turn your back on the congregation and mumble', that means that it is neither evangelical nor 'just low'. That makes it unlikely to be Church Hymnal. So it's either English Hymnal or A&M. Mr Cheesy has given a very good reason why that selection makes it unlikely to be English Hymnal. So I reckon that makes it A&M.
I'd stick by the board being the hymns left over from the previous Sunday evening, and it having been an any Sunday after Trinity.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What do the furnishings look like like in the photograph? Is it possible to get any idea whether it's MOTR or low?
Here it is:
AG
Here's a picture of that same church today.
It hasn't changed much in the intervening decades. The sanctuary (including curtain!) looks mostly unchanged, although the rood screen seems to have lost its rood.
The most pleasing thing is that the hymn board appears to be the exact same one. I think, though, that the hymn book has changed. (I think it might be "Hymns Old and New: New Anglican Edition.)
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It appears to have a curtain round three sides of the altar, boxing it in, and a rather nondescript late C19 early C20 screen. You don't often see those curtains now, but they were quite common between about 1920 and 1970. As that necessitated celebration 'turn your back on the congregation and mumble'
It's an "English altar." And it's "turn the same way as the congregation and speak clearly without mumbling."
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
An English altar is Percy Dearmer Sarum catholic, but obviously not full on PD with EH.
In my experience hymn choosers tend to ignore any season after the first few week. A green Evensong and A&M 1884 seems the best bet.
I believe there was a revision of A&M in 1904 which never caught on.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Yes, it is All Things bright and Beautiful in my copy of the Methodist Hymn Book.
Between the wars - I wasn't born then!
Yes indeed, it is the Methodist Hymn Book. I left the school in 1952, so if there was a new edition in 1954, then the same hymn number would have been carried forward.
I do not have a copy of the Methodist Hymn Book; this is entirely what remains in my long memory. So any change of words, I note with interest.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Here's a picture of that same church today.
It hasn't changed much in the intervening decades. The sanctuary (including curtain!) looks mostly unchanged, although the rood screen seems to have lost its rood.
The most pleasing thing is that the hymn board appears to be the exact same one. I think, though, that the hymn book has changed. (I think it might be "Hymns Old and New: New Anglican Edition.)
No it hasn't changed much. The actual fabrics are different - they are less fussy - and the 'English altar' pattern of curtaining has gone. I suspect the altar has been moved forwards slightly so as to have space for the celebrant to stand behind it.
Going back to the original again, and looking at the angle of the light coming in on the right - i.e from the south - with quite a sharp line, I would surmise the photograph was taken sometime in the middle of a sunny day in summer. So again, I'd go for a weekday in a week after Trinity.
Another continuity feature is that the reading desk in the middle of the old postcard looks as though it is the same one as that on the right in front of the vicar's chair in the current photograph.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Maybe I'm looking at different pictures to you all, but something has changed between the pictures.
Look at the floor in front of the screen. There seems to be a lot more of it before the steps in the new than in the old.
Maybe it is something about the perspective and position of the camera, but they look different to me.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Hum. well having looked at other photos of the church, it looks like that must be an optical illusion.
How weird.
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arse
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Hum. well having looked at other photos of the church, it looks like that must be an optical illusion.
How weird.
It could be down to the focal length of the lens used - longer focal lengths, as were commonly used in medium and large-format cameras in days of yore, will compress the apparent distance more than a more modern shorter lens will.
As for the fittings... funny they should be mentioned, I showed the churchwarden of another nearby church the postcard I found of its interior (probably 1920s) and the first thing he said was
"Oh, we still have that altar frontal!" He was right too, they did.
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Partly that and partly due to the different position of the photographer. Basically, the photographer being closer to the rood screen means that the photo shows more that it behind it. In particular, the pillars are blocking much of the information we use to create the extra depth.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Another continuity feature is that the reading desk in the middle of the old postcard looks as though it is the same one as that on the right in front of the vicar's chair in the current photograph.
I'd decided it was a Litany Desk, which some books seem to think is a different piece of kit.
I now realise that I have not seen one in its proper place for years. Did they vanish in the eighties? seventies?
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Would a church have used Songs of Praise? I've always associated it with schools.
Mum had a Songs of Praise music edition which I believe dated back to her time as a chorister at St John's, Sparkhill.
"Had" because I think it's on my bookshelves now.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Would a church have used Songs of Praise? I've always associated it with schools.
Mum had a Songs of Praise music edition which I believe dated back to her time as a chorister at St John's, Sparkhill.
"Had" because I think it's on my bookshelves now.
After I changed schools, I had Songs of Praise.
If my memory serves me correctly, Songs of Praise was in use at St. Martin-in-the-Fields, London, when I was a boy (late '40s/early '50s).
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Maybe they were just numbers picked by the photographer at random for the sake of the photograph
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
the hymn book has changed. (I think it might be "Hymns Old and New: New Anglican Edition.)
People buy HON because it is cheap rather than because of its churchpersonship.
I know. Only when they are using it do they realise its defects. And actually prices for the newest A&M are pretty comparable if you take advantage of their grant scheme (sigh). Tangent over, I suppose.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We're all forgetting The Public School Hymn Book ...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We're all forgetting The Public School Hymn Book ...
I'd have thought a parish church in rural Essex between the wars would be nearly as unlikely to have used The Public School Hymn Book as to have used the Book of Worship for United States Forces or the Methodist Hymnbook to name two other unlikely choices that have been suggested in this thread.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
I have a vague memory of an old black and white film in which hymn number boards are used to communicate coded messages to secret agents.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
I have a vague memory of an old black and white film in which hymn number boards are used to communicate coded messages to secret agents.
That reminds me of the Dad's Army episode where the troop dressed as the choir and chanted warnings to each other.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Perhaps the Vicar was a trainspotter and they are the numbers of his latest"cops"?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Perhaps the Vicar was a trainspotter and they are the numbers of his latest"cops"?
Very serious nerd alert
Nice one, ![[Smile]](smile.gif) , but between the wars on the LNER, virtually all two or three figure numbers would have been on the North Eastern. Essex was Swedey (Great Eastern) territory. Most numbers would have been four figures in the 7000 series.
[ 17. May 2017, 17:14: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Not enough room for 4 figures on that board. Perhaps he's taken the 7s as read?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And are we sure that picture was taken post-grouping? If not, a bit of quick work with Wikipedia suggests he might have seen a couple of T26s, an E22 and a C72...
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
You're all wrong, he was playing a peculiar form of bingo with his congregation.
The winner had to stand up, wave arms in the air and shout Hallelujah.
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arse
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Either that or it's his order from the Chinese takeaway.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
It must have a remarkably large menu! (Perhaps thy did, in those more ample days).
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
There are, perhaps apocryphal, stories about a former archbishop of Melbourne who, when a humble vicar, used to have cricket scores posted on the hymn board.
Though I think it must be apocryphal, because that degree of alteration in an Anglican church in decade is inconceivable, let alone in an hour long service in front of glaring Guild members
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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