Ship of Fools: Bowing to the altar at evensong

Thread: Bowing to the altar at evensong Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by John3000 (# 18786) on :

I've noticed that some members of the congregation bow to the altar before taking their seats in the quire at evensong, and again on leaving. In some places it seems only a few people do this, perhaps the older regulars, whereas in other places almost everyone does. That had me thinking, should I start doing it? I guess it feels more appropriate especially when leaving than just casually walking out.

Likewise I see some people bow during the Creed at the mention of Christ, but some don't. Interestingly this is sometimes the case with the choir, so presumably the choir are not been told to bow at that point, but make individual choices on the matter, perhaps in line with their degree of faith? The do always bow on arrival and departure though.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Hello there.

If bowing appears to be optional then clearly not everyone has to do it.

I go to evensong regularly and never do any bowing. That's not a part of my religious culture. And since no one is looking at me at that point in the service I don't feel that I'm sticking out in any way!

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

I think the Orthodox may be in the best place to explain this practice. It is basically showing reverence to the table on which the Eucharist is regularly performed. If you watch carefully at Anglo-Catholic churches before a Mass, you will see the priest kiss the altar/table.I believe many altars/tables in Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches contain relics. There is more to it than that but I am speaking already beyond my remit.

It is optional, the way all acts of piety are optional. Piety that is demanded is no longer a pious act.

Jengie

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John3000:

Likewise I see some people bow during the Creed at the mention of Christ, but some don't.

You will probably see some bows when Jesus' name is used ("at the name of Jesus every knee should bow"), when the Trinity is invoked, and at at the mention of the incarnation.

It's not so much to do with the degree of a person's faith, as to the nature of his religious upbringing. Some traditions emphasize bowing and genuflecting, and teach it to their children. Other traditions don't. Bowing and genuflecting are formal ways of reverencing authority, and so don't tend to come naturally to "informal" churches.

The same goes with bowing to the altar. It's certainly traditional in Anglicanism to bow to the altar (which is the throne of Christ) whenever one approaches it. Were you to to visit my own church, you would see people stop and bow when passing in front of the altar with the vacuum cleaner.

The Catholic practice is to bow to the altar, but genuflect to the Most Blessed Sacrament. (The altar represents Christ, but the MBS is Christ.) So if the MBS is exposed on the altar for adoration, or reserved in the vicinity of the altar, then the genuflection takes precedence.

As to whether you should do it - you may, certainly. But you should do so because you feel like you want to, not because you want to fit in with what other people are doing. As you say "it feels more appropriate than just casually walking out", I think you've answered your own question.

[ 02. July 2017, 13:42: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

It is meet and right to reverence the altar.

It is also meet and right to genuflect, or to bow if one's knees won't permit genuflecting, before the Most Blessed Sacrament.

What bothers me is when people genuflect seemingly more out of habit than of reverence. For example, in churches where the MBS is reserved at a side altar, I've seen people genuflect before the high altar and completely ignore the side altar.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

It was my impression that bowing one's head at the name of Jesus in the creed was as good as universal in the CofE 60 years ago. Whether that had always been the case or had spread from the higher end of the CofE sometime in the previous century, I've no idea. It was also universal for those not already facing east to turn to face east for the creed. Bowing to the altar was widespread but a lot less universal unless you were in the choir.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It was my impression that bowing one's head at the name of Jesus in the creed was as good as universal in the CofE 60 years ago.

Indeed, Canon law mandates it. B 9.2

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

A reverent (and, if possible, deep) bow is most seemly when passing the Altar or the Blessed Sacrament. Those of us of increasing years (or increasingly disobliging knees) appreciate this.

What annoys me is the 'holier-than-thou' attitude of fuckwits like our now retired Father Fuckwit. He, on being asked whether all the altar party could bow on reaching the altar, replied 'O, I will always genuflect'. This notwithstanding the fact that (a) it was difficult for some of us, and (b) that he himself had back problems, and was risking not only being unable to rise from his Holy Genuflection, but also risking the need to call an ambulance, and to interrupt the Eucharist, in order to pick him up off the sanctuary floor. [Disappointed]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Dearmer says that in such circumstances you should not delay the service to call an ambulance, but rather that you should proceed, placing a microphone near the recumbent one's mouth and when necessary stepping (respectfully) over the body. Those who follow the Worcester liturgical tradition will place a seasonally coloured blanket but edged in dark blue over him - never her of course.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Posted by JJ:

quote:

I think the Orthodox may be in the best place to explain this practice. It is basically showing reverence to the table on which the Eucharist is regularly performed.

It's to do with the East - the Oriens.
To be fair, it has become conflated with the altar and the Reserved Sacrament due to tabernacles sitting on it or directly behind it.

Posted by verity (# 18571) on :

When I was a child, everyone bowed during the creed at the Christ bit (we kneeled during the bit about becoming incarnate of the holy ghost etc).
I never noticed any other bowing (and crossing was only done at the end of the creed and at the end of the service when we were dismissed)

When I joined my first choir at 21, I was taught that we bowed when entering our stalls at the procession, and again when leaving the stalls for recession.
We didn't bow at any other time, officially.
However, it was during my time at that church, that I discovered lots of people (usually server-trained) bowed whenever they passed the altar.

In my last church, this pattern was pretty much the same, but I never joined in because it felt weird to me.
I did get into a habit of bowing when coming back into stalls after the post-communion anthem.

I have since been to many churches of different styles, and there is no pattern - yes, older members do it, but I think it's the kind of thing that becomes a habit, unless you're specifically taught to do it.

So, my conclusion is, if it feels right to you, then do it [Smile]

Posted by verity (# 18571) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by John3000:
[qb]
Were you to to visit my own church, you would see people stop and bow when passing in front of the altar with the vacuum cleaner.

I think this might be one reason, though, why I don't bow from habit - I spent a lot of time in the church as a child, helping mum with the cleaning - it would be an effort to bow every time you pass the altar when cleaning!

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

In our low-church evangelical Anglican parish only one or two of the older people do it and the vicar never does. He'd be better off as a Baptist, I think ...

[Biased]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Were you to to visit my own church, you would see people stop and bow when passing in front of the altar with the vacuum cleaner.

That rather gives the impression that you have two altars, one with a vacuum cleaner on it and one without.

Which is not quite what you mean! [Cool]

Posted by Bax (# 16572) on :

The logic behind bowing to the altar (or reverencing in another way) is that the altar is one of the symbols of Our Lord in a church.

This is expressed nicely in the following liturgical text:

"By the oblation of his Body he brought the sacrifices of old to fulfillment in the reality of the Cross and, by commending himself to [the Father] for our salvation, showed himself [to be] the Priest, the Altar, and the Lamb of Sacrifice"

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

BT's remark reminds of the fuss a Certain Vicar (not ours) made when a member of a visiting secular voluntary choir (singing, by invitation, at a wedding) had the temerity to put down a couple of pieces of music on the corner of THE BLESSED SACRAMENT ALTAR!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Eek!]

Apparently, the Certain Vicar was extremely rude to the choirperson, who was not particularly knowledgeable about church matters. All rather OTT, in fact, and off-putting to said choirperson. Respect is good, of course, but so is understanding.

IJ

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That rather gives the impression that you have two altars, one with a vacuum cleaner on it and one without.

A relic of St. Henry, perhaps?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

O, I say - well done, Sir!

[Killing me]

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Were you to to visit my own church, you would see people stop and bow when passing in front of the altar with the vacuum cleaner.
That rather gives the impression that you have two altars, one with a vacuum cleaner on it and one without.

Which is not quite what you mean!

This reminded me of one of the stories in "Bless Me, Father" (the book, not the television series, though it may be included in that as well). The young priest assumes that the bread crumbs left on the floor by visiting pilgrims are the Blessed Sacrament. He vacuums them up and then doesn't know what to do with the vacuum cleaner since it now contains fragments of the Most Precious Body, so he buries it in the backyard. It turns out that the bread crumbs are from their lunch, not their Eucharist.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

O, these young priests! What do they know? He should have reverently burnt the vacuum cleaner. Similarwisely, if the Most Precious Blood is accidentally spilt on e.g. the sanctuary floor, it is the church that must be reverently burnt.

[Paranoid]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That rather gives the impression that you have two altars, one with a vacuum cleaner on it and one without.
A relic of St. Henry, perhaps?

Nay: you have a whole panoply of saints to choose from.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In our low-church evangelical Anglican parish only one or two of the older people do it and the vicar never does. He'd be better off as a Baptist, I think ...

Perhaps he wouldn't- not financially- that might be why he's still officially CofE...

[ 03. July 2017, 16:22: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

More likely to be to do with the way you can be supported in the CifE if your parish is seen as successful. Also, you don't get hassle from the church meeting ...

He's got a PCC who support him ... As well as a tame leadership team ...

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

I've always understood that the Parliamentary practice of members bowing towards the Speaker is because they are notionally bowing to the (non-existent) altar of St Stephen's Church, the building in which Parliament originally sat.

Indeed, in Welsh the UK Parliament is often referred to simply as San Steffan, although it hasn't been an actual church since - anyone know when?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

St. Stephen's Hall actually stands on the site of the original chapel, destroyed by fire in 1834. The present structure closely follows the dimensions of the original, however, and the restored undercroft is still used as a place of worship. It seems as though the original chapel ceased to be used for worship in 1547.

More details:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Stephen%27s_Chapel#As_a_Royal_Chapel

IJ

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

The CofE would be a happier institution if it were much smaller and utterly united on matters of this type.

But I'm not sure how a church that claims to be for everyone and pays lip service to being 'broad' can expect or long for uniformity in regard to bowing (or very much else). So I'm not going to start bowing at evensong, or other CofE services.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Who's asking you to?

[Disappointed]

I thought it was pretty clear from this thread that bowing to the altar, is purely optional, as are all acts of individual piety.

IJ

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I was thinking in particular of a comment above about a vicar who never bowed. It was suggested that he'd be better off as a Baptist. The implication seemed to be that there was one proper way to behave and anything else was inappropriate.

But yes, fortunately bowing is optional.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I was thinking in particular of a comment above about a vicar who never bowed. It was suggested that he'd be better off as a Baptist. The implication seemed to be that there was one proper way to behave and anything else was inappropriate.

But yes, fortunately bowing is optional.

You misunderstood my point.

Said vicar sits very loosely and lightly by Anglican rubrics in all manner of ways.

I'd say the same about some Anglo-Papalists, that they'd be better off becoming RC.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Indeed, and I can think of one or two in a nearby parish....

[Disappointed]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Who would be 'better off'? Would the CofE be better off by offloading these people, or would these people themselves be happier elsewhere?

It sounds like the former, but in any case, it sounds as if the 'broad church' is an idea that's had its day. The CofE needs to transform itself into a smaller and more unified denomination, and bowing or not bowing is simply one symptom of a wider problem.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

On my more curmudgeonly days I bewail all those who fail to measure up to my ideal Anglican. But it is sheer self-indulgence, and I know I would go mad in the sort of church where everyone behaved in the same way and believed the same things. As long as no-one is trying to ban bowing, vestments, incense and all the rest of it, or make us all sign up to the 39 Articles (as opposed to acknowledging that they exist) or the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, I think diversity is good.

There are other aspects of the C of E (some of them dead-horse related) which are depressing. But the church on the ground in its glorious variety is a wonderful thing and a good advert for Christianity.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Thanks, Angloid - you put it better than I could...

[Overused]

It's a pity that others don't seem to appreciate the variety of the C of E, but wish to see it somehow 'smaller', and more 'unified'. Sounds like some kind of sect, IMHO.

IJ

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
On my more curmudgeonly days I bewail all those who fail to measure up to my ideal Anglican.

But unless they fail to measure up to your ideal Anglican, you can't have that snobby feeling of superiority knowing that you're the only one doing it the correct way!
[Snigger]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
I've always understood that the Parliamentary practice of members bowing towards the Speaker is because they are notionally bowing to the (non-existent) altar of St Stephen's Church, the building in which Parliament originally sat.

Indeed, in Welsh the UK Parliament is often referred to simply as San Steffan, although it hasn't been an actual church since - anyone know when?

Tangent: Nice story in Dafydd Wigley's memoirs of when he and Dafydd Elis Thomas were new young Plaid MPs in the 70s and George Thomas, never a friend of Welsh Nationalism, was Deputy Speaker. Dafydd W & Dafydd El are in the Tea Room one day when they are stopped by Thomas. 'It does my heart good when I'm in the Chair to see you boys come into the Chamber....' (the two Dafydds look at each other, rather puzzled- this wasn't what they'd expected) '...to see you two boys come into the Chamber and have to bow to me '!

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

This non-conformist would far rather have people bowing to an altar out of respect for Christ, than bowing to a secular authority. I may not share the understanding of the symbolism but I can honour the motive behind it.

My NonConformity tends to make me sceptical of obeisance before any earthly authority. I have no wish to disobey those in authority except in extreme cases of conscience (I can not recall one) or necessity. I just do not think people should be required to humble themselves before them.

Jengie

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Who would be 'better off'? Would the CofE be better off by offloading these people, or would these people themselves be happier elsewhere?

It sounds like the former, but in any case, it sounds as if the 'broad church' is an idea that's had its day. The CofE needs to transform itself into a smaller and more unified denomination, and bowing or not bowing is simply one symptom of a wider problem.

With every respect, I think that you are misunderstanding Church of England ecclesiology, which is not about being a 'denomination'. if the CofE moves that way it may still be Anglican but it won't be the CofE except possibly in name. One of the things I like about the CinW is that it is in many ways technically a 'denomination' but it still thinks of its obligations in to society and nation in ways that are bigger than that.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Thanks, Angloid - you put it better than I could...

It's a pity that others don't seem to appreciate the variety of the C of E, but wish to see it somehow 'smaller', and more 'unified'. Sounds like some kind of sect, IMHO.

IJ

But you've just said that there are vicars in your vicinity who ought to go and join the RCC. If everyone did that then you would indeed end up as a smaller sect!

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
This non-conformist would far rather have people bowing to an altar out of respect for Christ, than bowing to a secular authority. I may not share the understanding of the symbolism but I can honour the motive behind it.

My NonConformity tends to make me sceptical of obeisance before any earthly authority. I have no wish to disobey those in authority except in extreme cases of conscience (I can not recall one) or necessity. I just do not think people should be required to humble themselves before them.

Jengie

This Anglican feels much the same. There are probably more 'non-conformists' in the C of E than you might think. The great ++Michael Ramsey was similarly inclined.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Dangerous, destructive stuff. Untune that string...
[Frown]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Indeed, Canon law mandates it. B 9.2

Thank you for that, Leo. I had a feeling I'd seen it somewhere but couldn't remember where.

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Nay: you have a whole panoply of saints to choose from.

And thank you for that Baptist Trainfan. I've learnt something else that I didn't know before. I didn't realise either that they all had different names.

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

I like a bit of incense and vestments but it would never occur to me to bow to an altar, because of the opposite of what Jengie Jon said.

If I were Japanese, I would bow to people to show them respect, so it would make sense to bow to an altar to show respect. But as an ordinary English person I've never had any occasion to bow to anyone or anything whether I respected them or not.

So the symbolism of bowing conveys neither respect nor anything else to me; For me to do it in church would be an empty gesture devoid of intention, so I have never been inclined to do it.

I don't think that makes me a Baptist.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I have never been inclined to do it.

You can't physically do it without being inclined! [Biased]

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