Ship of Fools: RCL and the C of E

Thread: RCL and the C of E Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I have just wasted half a morning adjusting reading and preaching rotas etc. After some clever clogs pointed out a discrepancy which I have been perpetuating for at least 12 years e.g. Oct 22 has Isaiah 4:1n 5-6 whereas the C of E had Isaiah 45:1-7

It seems to me that the shorter passage is more likely to get people’s attention – why must the C of E tinker with an internationally agreed lecionary?

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I don’t know the answer to the example you give from Isaiah; but what I do know is that some parts of the C of E include the Apocrypha and other parts of the C of E exclude it. That factor alone would invite variation, for starters.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Interpretation of the following varies:

quote:
39 Articles
And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following...

Plus most other Protestant churches would not have readings from the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books. Having a lectionary acceptable to all is always going to be a bit of a compromise.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

There are several versions of the RCL aproved for use in North America, largely the same but with (sometimes inexplicable) differences. The RC, the Episcopal, the ACC, the Lutherans and at least some version of Methodists/UCC all have customized lectionaries. It's not the CofE -- it's everyone.

John

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Interpretation of the following varies:
quote:
39 Articles
And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following...
Plus most other Protestant churches would not have readings from the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books. Having a lectionary acceptable to all is always going to be a bit of a compromise.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I've been surprised to discover readings from the Apocrypha in the CofS's Book of Common Order. On enquiring it was suggested to me that the book was likely written by those who like liturgy and that those who have a problem with the Apocrypha would object to the BCO anyway.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

A quick google will reveal that a number of other ecclesial communities make the same 'mistake' that Leo is accusing the CofE of making, and they are in North America where the RCL might be thought to have more binding force.

If one sticks to the CofE booklet that is authoritative where one is, and doesn't expend time cross-checking it with what other people somewhere else might be doing, this dilemma will go away.

My gripe with the CofE lectionary is the way it cuts too much of scripture. I follow it for my daily reading. I find it really annoying the way it's recently been leaving out large chunks of Proverbs, so far as I can tell solely so as to have shorter extracts and to get through the book quicker.

For a Sunday reading, I'd regard cherry picking two verses as too short, out of context, and in some selections misleading, selecting scripture to suit one's preconceptions - something which of course only other people do.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Firstly, RCL copes both with Apocrypha lovers and haters. If there is a reading from the Apocrypha then there is always an alternative. That brings me:

Secondly, RCL is not a single set of readings but a complex set of readings selected so you can make your choice. During the summer there are two sets of Old Testament readings, one that is continuous and one that is topical.

Thirdly, and without going to the original so as to check Leo's, the RCL quite often has a longer and shorter version of the same reading for a specific date.

This, therefore, sounds to me like to approved variants of RCL.

When Reformed grumble about not sticking to the RCL, they mean that denominations have chosen to mark a festival (e.g. the Transfiguration) at a time and place where it is not marked in RCL and therefore use readings from outside the RCL framework. This disfigures the limited extent of Biblical continuity in the lectionary that there is. Historically Reformed ministers chose a book of the Bible and preached through it. It says to us 'we want the kudos of being ecumenical without the both of dealing with your tradition'.

Needless to say, the real world application I have seen of the RCL by the URC is idiosyncratic although the texts are normally among those listed.

It is a lectionary honoured more in the breach than the observance.

Jengie

[ 23. September 2017, 21:57: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

And rarely used at all in Baptist circles. Indeed, when coming into the URC, I was surprised to discover how much it was honoured and used.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
My gripe with the CofE lectionary is the way it cuts too much of scripture. I follow it for my daily reading. I find it really annoying the way it's recently been leaving out large chunks of Proverbs, so far as I can tell solely so as to have shorter extracts and to get through the book quicker.

The trouble is that the CofE really has three parallel lectionaries (and that's ignoring the BCP lectionaries).

There's the RCL-derived principal service lectionary, which covers the majority of the gospels over three years.

There's the Catholic-derived Daily Eucharistic Lectionary, which covers all four gospels every year.

And there's the CofE-original lectionary for morning and evening prayer, which works through the majority of scripture every year. I'm not aware of any other office lectionary that includes both OT and NT readings at every office.

They don't really fit together very well.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

It may surprise you but RCL Daily Lectionary actually exists.

Jengie

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It may surprise you but RCL Daily Lectionary actually exists.

That's... quite weird. What is it intended to be used for? Does anyone actually use it? Why have they gone for a Thursday to Wednesday week, rather than the traditional Sunday to Saturday?

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It may surprise you but RCL Daily Lectionary actually exists.
That's... quite weird. What is it intended to be used for? Does anyone actually use it? Why have they gone for a Thursday to Wednesday week, rather than the traditional Sunday to Saturday?

It's the daily lectionary in the ELCA's service book, and I have used it for personal prayer. I quite like it.

The Monday–Wednesday reading relate to the readings in the main RCL for the preceding Sunday, while the readings for Thursday–Saturday relate to the readings for the coming Sunday. The idea is for everything to revolve and around the Sunday/feast day readings.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It may surprise you but RCL Daily Lectionary actually exists.
That's... quite weird. What is it intended to be used for? Does anyone actually use it? Why have they gone for a Thursday to Wednesday week, rather than the traditional Sunday to Saturday?
It's the daily lectionary in the ELCA's service book, and I have used it for personal prayer. I quite like it.

So how is it used? Does ELCA only have one daily office?

quote:
The Monday–Wednesday reading relate to the readings in the main RCL for the preceding Sunday, while the readings for Thursday–Saturday relate to the readings for the coming Sunday. The idea is for everything to revolve and around the Sunday/feast day readings.

I guess that kind of makes sense. It seems to lose the idea of a week as a coherent entity, though.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Here the Thursday to Wednesday pattern was first encountered with the IBRA Bible reading notes "Daily Bread" which based its notes so as to fit around the RCL lectionary. Yes it was a while ago that I used them.

I suspect they are either to give you a choice for a Eucharistic service or for an individual's daily quiet time depending on where you are on the spectrum. The membership of the Consultation on Common Texts is pretty broad though it no longer includes the Roman Catholic Church.

For those who are curious the Joint Liturgical Group who were the UK equivalent basically gave up producing JLG lectionaries after the RCC and CofE adopted modified RCL.

Jengie

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
So how is it used? Does ELCA only have one daily office?

The current American service books and denominational liturgical resources with which I'm familiar—including the 1978 BCP, Evangelical Lutheran Worship, and the Presbyterian BCW—have only one daily lectionary, with no explicit designation of readings for Morning Prayer or Evening Prayer. (The BCP and the BCW, which use essentially the same 2-year lectionary, do specifically appoint psalms for morning or evening.) Rubrics or other directions suggest how the readings may be apportioned between MP and EP, but there are no mandates in this regard. Local discretion is allowed.

In my experience in these parts, a church that had both MP and EP on the same weekday with any kind of regularity would be exceedingly rare.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It may surprise you but RCL Daily Lectionary actually exists.
That's... quite weird. What is it intended to be used for? Does anyone actually use it?

Yes - have used it for over 40 years at daily mass/communion.

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

leo wrote:

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It may surprise you but RCL Daily Lectionary actually exists.
That's... quite weird. What is it intended to be used for? Does anyone actually use it?
Yes - have used it for over 40 years at daily mass/communion.

Are you sure? You don't mean the Daily Eucharistic Lectionary ? – which ain't the same thing.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
leo wrote:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It may surprise you but RCL Daily Lectionary actually exists.
That's... quite weird. What is it intended to be used for? Does anyone actually use it?
Yes - have used it for over 40 years at daily mass/communion.
Are you sure? You don't mean the Daily Eucharistic Lectionary ? – which ain't the same thing.

Right. The Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings to which Jennie Jon linked were only published in 2005, so it's highly unlikely leo's church has been using it for 40 years.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Just to add but it lends itself to use in an office of reading.

Jengie

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
leo wrote:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It may surprise you but RCL Daily Lectionary actually exists.
That's... quite weird. What is it intended to be used for? Does anyone actually use it?
Yes - have used it for over 40 years at daily mass/communion.
Are you sure? You don't mean the Daily Eucharistic Lectionary ? – which ain't the same thing.

Yes, sorry

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

jengie jon commented:

quote:
Just to add but it lends itself to use in an office of reading.

I like that idea.
At the midday office (my own version), I usually include the second, nonscriptural reading from the Roman Office of Readings for the day. Currently working thru St Augustine of Hippo on Pastors. But the RCL could be a good addition.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

The American Baptist Church recommends the RCL but does not require it.

There is a new lectionary that is beginning to take root in America. It is called the Narrative Lectionary

It has a four-year cycle which includes longer readings from John

It has basically a primary reading and a secondary reading. The primary reading is the preaching text. The secondary reading is an optional reading.

Here is a more detailed explaination

We have just started using it. I would say, so far, the reviews are mixed. Many want to go back to the RCL but we have committed to it for at least a year.

I don't think it is approved for the Anglican fellowship, yet.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The American Baptist Church . . .

Nitpicking, but it is the American Baptist Churches (formerly the American Baptist Convention). With a few minor exceptions, Baptist groups in the States never use "Church" to mean "denomination." "Church" in Baptist use here either means local congregation or the universal church generally.

/nitpicking

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Point taken, though, officially the name is The American Baptist Churches USA. Not to be nitpicking.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I'm still puzzled why, since the CofE issues an annual lectionary, which isn't that expensive, there is any reason why anyone in the CofE should use a different one, whether almost similar or, for that matter, vastly different.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

It is also available, free, in digital versions - more than one

[ 28. September 2017, 08:45: Message edited by: BroJames ]

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm still puzzled why, since the CofE issues an annual lectionary, which isn't that expensive, there is any reason why anyone in the CofE should use a different one, whether almost similar or, for that matter, vastly different.

Enoch, the Sunday main service lectionary is based on the RCL to such an extent that members of the CofE often claim it as the RCL. So someone saying they are using RCL may well be using the CofE Annual lectionary.

Jengie

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Point taken, though, officially the name is The American Baptist Churches USA. Not to be nitpicking.

Picked nit acknowledged. [Big Grin]

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