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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Introit censing
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I though that only the altar was censed at the beginning of mass.
Last night, I saw the gospel book, in the centre of the altar, censed with 3 crosses (like the oblations but without the circles), then the celebrant (a ‘flying bishop’)
(I would have done a MW Report on this but I vaguely kow nthe preacher, our suffragan bishop.)
Was this censing correct?
Is there a diagram online to show how to cense a free-standing altar? (Ritual Notes used to have an appendix with such a diagram)
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
Sorry - got thrown by the 'witty' response page from the Ship about having to do the hokey-pokey between postings – and couldn't find how to delete the duplicate post.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
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JH
Apprentice
# 17310
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Posted
The celebrant is censed at the beginning of Mass at an Anglo-Catholic church where I sometimes serve.
He is also censed at the offertory in the usual way.
I have not come across the practice elsewhere and had been puzzled by it.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2012
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JH:
The celebrant is censed at the beginning of Mass at an Anglo-Catholic church where I sometimes serve.
He is also censed at the offertory in the usual way.
I have not come across the practice elsewhere and had been puzzled by it.
Sounds like our place. During the Introit chant, the sacred ministers cense the altar cross and high altar. The deacon and subdeacon then step down to the pavement at the epistle side and bow to the celebrant, the deacon censes the celebrant, and bow again. Then the ministers form a line at the Epistle horn.
At the Offertory, the gifts, altar cross, and high altar are censed, then the celebrant is censed in the same way as above. Then, this time the ministers line up at the center rather than the epistle horn. The thurifer continues the censing with the deacon, subdeacon, MC, servers, and then the faithful.
In a Solemn Requiem, incense "is not wanted until the Offertory," and only things, not people, are censed.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JH:
The celebrant is censed at the beginning of Mass at an Anglo-Catholic church where I sometimes serve.
He is also censed at the offertory in the usual way.
I have not come across the practice elsewhere and had been puzzled by it.
Your mention of the censing of the celebrant at the beginning of Mass is traditional rite ceremonial and as such, was done immediately after the Gospel as well. A minority of anglo-catholic churches still do it that way. According to contemporary usage, the celebrant is only censed at the offertory and at no other point during the Mass.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, that's how we normally do it. The altar is censed at the Introit, the Gospel Book at the Gospel Reading, etc. etc.
However - we do, in these Dark Days Of Interregnum, have the inestimable assistance of a retired priest of the Evangelical Persuasion! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Now, he is perfectly happy to wear a chasuble, and to swing the thurible at the Offertory, but, to give him a bit of relief, we no longer use incense as above if he is presiding, though it is usually brought in during the Entrance Hymn.
Purists may say that we should educate him duly, but, TBH, we are so glad to have him help us out (he preaches excellent little 5-minute homilies), that we have no problem in lightening his burden of Carflick ceremonial!
BTW, the Angelus is a bit out of his comfort zone as well, but he's quite happy to have whichever Reader is acting as liturgical Deacon to say it, after the final hymn, instead.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/10/how-to-incense-freestanding-altar.html
Is there something special about 22? If whoever is doing it only swings 21 times, adds in a 23rd swing or gets one of those movements in the wrong order, does it invalidate the Mass? Or does he (I assume it has to be he) have to go back and start again?
I'm relieved those sort of pernickety instructions aren't normally part of our tradition.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/10/how-to-incense-freestanding-altar.html
Is there something special about 22? If whoever is doing it only swings 21 times, adds in a 23rd swing or gets one of those movements in the wrong order, does it invalidate the Mass? Or does he (I assume it has to be he) have to go back and start again?
I'm relieved those sort of pernickety instructions aren't normally part of our tradition.
Of course imperfectly following the instructions doesn't "invalidate the Mass." What's wrong with having a clearly described way to do something? Clarity seems helpful, not "pernickety," to me.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Of course imperfectly following the instructions doesn't "invalidate the Mass." What's wrong with having a clearly described way to do something? Clarity seems helpful, not "pernickety," to me.
Not if it could encourage hawk-eyed people to watch the Mass and think, 'Father's doing it wrong because I know better'.
'They will know we are Christians by our disapproval'.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
A former churchwarden used to say that, whilst things should be done correctly if possible, it wasn't necessary to worry about mistakes too much. 'God won't mind, and the congregation won't notice', he said.
And, of course, the trick is to always make an error in the sanctuary look as though you meant to do it like that...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So far, nobody has come to the defence of censing the gospel book as it lies on the altar during the introit.
Maybe the flying bishop thought it was the offertory asnd then realised it wasn't, so stopped after the 3 croses before the circles.
Or maybe he didn't know any better - after all, he was trained at Wycliffe Hall.
It is not normal liturgical practice to cense the gospel book on the altar (or at all) during the introit. Should it occur, it must be a local variation.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
Deare ZAppa:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
Sorry - got thrown by the 'witty' response page from the Ship about having to do the hokey-pokey between postings – and couldn't find how to delete the duplicate post.
We hosts accept chocolate, you know?
If I send you some virtual chocolate, will you tell me how to delete a duplicate virtual post?
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Perhaps this might be a time to point out that C of E rites do not stipulate the times and manner of the censings, that all such rubrics are borrowed from elsewhere, and that there is therefore no absolute right or wrong in the matter.
While I see nothing wrong with this, it does seem to me to be perfectly plausible that one priest's source for such borrowings might not meet the expectations of another, of those of a particular congregation accustomed to another source.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Perhaps this might be a time to point out that C of E rites do not stipulate the times and manner of the censings, that all such rubrics are borrowed from elsewhere, and that there is therefore no absolute right or wrong in the matter.
But those of us who use incense regularly are likely to have the sort of ecclesiology that looks to Rome.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Perhaps this might be a time to point out that C of E rites do not stipulate the times and manner of the censings, that all such rubrics are borrowed from elsewhere, and that there is therefore no absolute right or wrong in the matter.
But those of us who use incense regularly are likely to have the sort of ecclesiology that looks to Rome.
I can think of numerous examples to the contrary. While you might not agree with them surely you must be aware of their existence.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I think much of what is done in the C of E in the way of censing, and other ritchool, can be classed as 'local custom'.
Not that that is in itself a Bad Thing, of course, IMHO.
YMMV.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Perhaps this might be a time to point out that C of E rites do not stipulate the times and manner of the censings, that all such rubrics are borrowed from elsewhere, and that there is therefore no absolute right or wrong in the matter.
But those of us who use incense regularly are likely to have the sort of ecclesiology that looks to Rome.
I can think of numerous examples to the contrary. While you might not agree with them surely you must be aware of their existence.
'Make it up as you go along'shows disobedience.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Ah well - you do it your way, and we'll do it ours. We can exchange views in Purgatory (the Real One, that is, not the thread!).
Given the state of the world, the heat around here, and the discomfort of this handbasket, I'm not going to lose too much sleep.
BTW, today's Father Visiting Priest did it all 'correctly', AFAIK!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
'Local custom' doesn't seem 'catholic' by definition. And local 'usage' was superceded by Cranmer.
But if this is permitted at all in the CofE, it must be a 'thing indifferent' - in which case there can't be a right way or a wrong way.
Furthermore, there is no requirement in the CofE to cense at all. For centuries it was assumed to be forbidden. If it is allowed at all, there are no authoritative instructions as to how it is to be done. Therefore it is also impossible to condemn doing it the wrong way as disobedience.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Exactly.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
'Local cutom' doesn't seem 'catholic' by definition...[/QB][/QUOTE]
Try telling that to the Milanese.
[ 08. October 2017, 19:56: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
'Local cutom' doesn't seem 'catholic' by definition.
What Enoch, Bishops Finger, and Albertus said.
I struggle to see a foundation for your assertion. There has always existed a plethora of rites and local uses of those rites within churches known as Catholic: universality and uniformity are not the same thing. Even within the post-schism western tradition, the variations on the Western rite were never entirely suppressed. Modern Rome affirms the use side by side of the Usus Antiquior and the Novus Ordo, and talks positively of their "mutual enrichment", which makes me wonder how someone looking to current Roman Catholic practice for a model of catholicity can then declare the practice of that same church to be uncatholic in the very next breath.
With that in mind, it doesn't seem to me to follow that an Anglican priest following the modern Roman censing custom is any more Catholic than one following Gallican, Milanese, or Ambrosian custom. Common Worship and the BCP are both silent on the matter of whether censings should take place at all.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
[qb] Perhaps this might be a time to point out that C of E rites do not stipulate the times and manner of the censings, that all such rubrics are borrowed from elsewhere, and that there is therefore no absolute right or wrong in the matter.
But those of us who use incense regularly are likely to have the sort of ecclesiology that looks to Rome.
I can think of numerous examples to the contrary. While you might not agree with them surely you must be aware of their existence.
'Make it up as you go along'shows disobedience.
Disobedience to whom? I mean, given that clergy in the C of E presumably owe no obedience to Rome.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Clergy who went to Rome with the Ordinariate had had a pretty free rein in the C of E from what you read. They followed the rules they wanted to follow and ignored others. Most would be finding Rome much stricter.
Back to the OP - woe betide the thurifer who loses count and carries out the censing requirements of post 24 at post 22 instead. A dim future both in the present and the hereafter for the miserable wretch.
[ 09. October 2017, 06:32: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed, with much Weeping, and Gnashing of Teeth, in the outer Darkness.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Indeed, with much Weeping, and Gnashing of Teeth, in the outer Darkness.
Is that another name for Darlington, Dudley or Motherwell?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
No, Gillingham...
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Perhaps not the Garden-iest part of England, then?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Alas, no...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
[qb] Perhaps this might be a time to point out that C of E rites do not stipulate the times and manner of the censings, that all such rubrics are borrowed from elsewhere, and that there is therefore no absolute right or wrong in the matter.
But those of us who use incense regularly are likely to have the sort of ecclesiology that looks to Rome.
I can think of numerous examples to the contrary. While you might not agree with them surely you must be aware of their existence.
'Make it up as you go along'shows disobedience.
Disobedience to whom? I mean, given that clergy in the C of E presumably owe no obedience to Rome.
To the larger Western Church from whence we were torn.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Roman Cataholic
Apprentice
# 18736
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
[qb] Perhaps this might be a time to point out that C of E rites do not stipulate the times and manner of the censings, that all such rubrics are borrowed from elsewhere, and that there is therefore no absolute right or wrong in the matter.
But those of us who use incense regularly are likely to have the sort of ecclesiology that looks to Rome.
I can think of numerous examples to the contrary. While you might not agree with them surely you must be aware of their existence.
'Make it up as you go along'shows disobedience.
Disobedience to whom? I mean, given that clergy in the C of E presumably owe no obedience to Rome.
To the larger Western Church from whence we were torn.
Are you Anti-Women Priests Leo?
Posts: 30 | Registered: Feb 2017
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
What's that got to do with how an altar should or should not be censed?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What's that got to do with how an altar should or should not be censed?
IJ
By leo's reasoning, everything.
If leo, as an Anglican ,maintains that obedience to Rome is the determining factor of how Anglican worshipping life ought to be ordered, then Roman Cataholic's question to leo seems very pertinent indeed.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Roman Cataholic
Apprentice
# 18736
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What's that got to do with how an altar should or should not be censed?
IJ
By leo's reasoning, everything.
If leo, as an Anglican ,maintains that obedience to Rome is the determining factor of how Anglican worshipping life ought to be ordered, then Roman Cataholic's question to leo seems very pertinent indeed.
Well done Scrumpmaster. Have a cookie.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Disobedience to whom? I mean, given that clergy in the C of E presumably owe no obedience to Rome.
To the larger Western Church from whence we were torn.
Well, if that’s the case, it’s disobedient to belong to the C of E to start with, I would think.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Could a friendly host kindly fix the scroll lock on this thread, please?
And how about obedience to the wider Eastern Church, from whom Rome split originally?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The Scrumpmeister, in a way, answered my rather rhetorical question. It was the whiff of deceased quadruped that got up my nostrils...
Amen to Robert's request to fix the scroll lock, BTW.
@Robert Armin - I just love being an Anglican - it's hearing that wonderful, tinkly sound of breaking Other Churches' rules... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Disobedience to whom? I mean, given that clergy in the C of E presumably owe no obedience to Rome.
To the larger Western Church from whence we were torn.
Well, if that’s the case, it’s disobedient to belong to the C of E to start with, I would think.
This.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Disobedience to whom? I mean, given that clergy in the C of E presumably owe no obedience to Rome.
To the larger Western Church from whence we were torn.
Well, if that’s the case, it’s disobedient to belong to the C of E to start with, I would think.
Not if praying and working for reunion
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Is there such a thing as 'the western church'? Is the concept of any significance or value, or is it a distraction? There's 'tradition' but In what sense is there such a thing as 'the western church' as against the church universal?
And if the church universal is fragmented, do we try to see things as though in some 'mystic vision' way, it isn't really? Or is that a pretence, a delusion?
A lot of the trouble is that in answer to the question 'is Christ divided?' too many bits take the line either that 'no he isn't because we are the true body of Christ and everybody else is a wilful schismatic', or 'it's not quite as unequivocal as that but everything would be fine if the deluded brethren conformed to us'.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Just discovered that he's also a freemason - maybe that explains it.
At least if he were a woman, one could be assured she wouldn't be one.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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