Ship of Fools: When Christmas Eve is a Sunday

Thread: When Christmas Eve is a Sunday Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

Christmas Eve is a Sunday this year. Is the norm in most denominations to not have any "Sunday" service that week and to only have the Christmas services that start the evening of Christmas Eve? I know the Nativity, even in non-liturgical denominations, is basically the second-most important yearly observance other than Easter - but it seems odd to not observe the weekly celebration of the Resurrection because the vigil services of Christmas start that evening.

I know the practical reasons to do this - people are not likely to attend a morning service and come back for an evening service (or for a Christmas morning service the next day - although those are often not well attended). In denominations that follow a liturgical calendar, though, it would make sense to me to have a Sunday service, in this year's case the service for the Fourth Sunday of Advent, in the morning that would not need music or much other fuss, and that only a few people need attend, to give Sunday the respect that it is due, and then to have the Christmas services in the evening.

I know that Christmas Eve has its own daytime services in at least the RCC and The US Episcopal Church. Are those services, which are normally as low key as your average weekday Eucharist, so important that when Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday they would trump celebration of the Sunday Eucharist?

I'm no liturgical expert so I'd like to see what other people's knowledge is on what different denominations, or even different congregations within a denomination do when Christmas Eve is a Sunday, and what the rationale is for it other than the pragmatic reasons I stated above.

On a side note, why are there only three Sundays of Advent when Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday? Couldn't Advent start one week earlier to fit four Sundays in?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, the C of E lectionary lists Sunday 24th December thus:

The Fourth Sunday of Advent
Christmas Eve

So, at Our Place (backstreet A-C parish, with a small congregation), we propose the following services:

Sunday 24th December
1030 Holy Communion (from the Reserved Sacrament, as we have no priest-in-charge) with propers for Advent 4 - probably no hymns, and possibly only 3-4 attending:
1700 Crib Service - usually well-attended by young families:
2345 Midnight Mass - maybe only 25-30 people.

Christmas Day
1030 Family Mass with Carols - could be anything up to 50, including children (not necessarily those who were at the Crib Service).

Old service registers show a similar pattern when Christmas Eve/Advent 4 have fallen on the same day in the past.

IJ

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Christmas Eve is a Sunday this year. Is the norm in most denominations to not have any "Sunday" service that week and to only have the Christmas services that start the evening of Christmas Eve?

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of the morning services being dropped when the 24th falls on a Sunday. (Sorry—I can’t seem to escape the sound of my father’s voice insisting that Christmas Eve does not start until sunset on the 24th.). It’s certainly not the norm here.

quote:
On a side note, why are there only three Sundays of Advent when Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday? Couldn't Advent start one week earlier to fit four Sundays in?

Advent always starts on the Sunday closest to November 30, which always yields 4 Sundays before a Christmas. There are 4 Sundays in Advent this year—December 3, 10, 17 and 24. The 24th is always the last day of Advent, not the first day of Christmas. The celebration of the Nativity/Incarnation begins on the night of the 24th, not during the day—accommodation of families with young children by having afternoon Christmas Eve services notwithstanding.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Usually our Sunday service is 11 am, once a month with another at 6 pm. On Christmas Eve we are seriously considering only having a service at 8 pm, with another in the morning. Certainly we see this year's calendar as a Bit of a Problem.

[ 20. October 2017, 22:13: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

When our normal pattern was 8 & 10 HC and 3.30 (in winter) Evening Prayer, the 8 would be 4th of Advent as would the 10, unless the Sunday school leaders had decided that would be the Nativity play. The 3.30 would be superseded by the Christingle, and the First Eucharist of Christmas would begin at 11.30 pm. OTOH, if Christmas Day fell on a Sunday, the 8.00 and 3.30 would be cancelled.

Evening Prayer was discontinued a few years ago because although everyone thought it was a good idea that it should happen, no one wanted to go to it, but apart from its absence the pattern remains the same.

I think my unfavourite pattern is when Christmas Day falls on a Saturday. After Christmas Eve and Christmas Day it can be hard to get a sense of celebration into St Stephen, or the First Sunday of Christmas on 26th December.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

The principle of the due celebration of Sundays and holy days would make me think it wrong to simply ignore the Fourth Sunday of Advent; a parish should have at least one service that morning. Can't force people to attend, but it should be available for those who consider it important to do so. I can understand reducing the normal Sunday-morning schedule to just the one service if there normally are several.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

I looked to see what our place is doing. We're doing our usual trifecta of Christmas services on the 24th (small child crib service with puppets retelling the Christmas story, family Christmas Mass in the early evening, and the smells'n'bells Christmas Mass in the late evening) and our usual single Mass on Christmas morning. We're not doing Advent 4 in the morning - our priest has been pretty ruthless about eliminating poorly-attended services, and probably doesn't want to do four in a day.

I suppose it's possible that Advent 4 will be rolled into the crib service, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I agree with Oblatus that we should properly observe Advent 4, but sympathize with the priest thinking that four services in one day is a bit much.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

("Our place" is fairly MOTR TEC, for reference.)

Posted by Salicional (# 16461) on :

At our PC(USA) shack, which normally has Sunday services at 8:30 & 11:00, we're cancelling the 8:30 this year. Then Christmas Eve services at 7:00 & 10:00, as they always are. I imagine there may be a few in the 8:30 congregation who are upset that their normal Sunday worship time is being eliminated, but hopefully they'll be sympathetic to the fact the four services in one day is a lot to ask of the clergy and musicians.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Certainly in 30 years of vicarring I never ignored the day masses either when Christmas Eve fell on Friday (more irritating) or a Saturday. I fear it would make the baby jesus howl.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Salicional:
At our PC(USA) shack, which normally has Sunday services at 8:30 & 11:00, we're cancelling the 8:30 this year. Then Christmas Eve services at 7:00 & 10:00, as they always are.

I probably should have been clearer in my post above. It doesn’t surprise me at all that churches normally having more than one service on a Sunday morning would have just one on the 24th. I also wouldn’t be surprised at Sunday school being replaced by something like a breakfast or canceled altogether that day. (Sunday school classes for all ages—children and adults—is the norm for pretty much everyone except the Catholics and Orthodox around here.). It’s no morning service at all that would surprise me or seem out of the ordinary.

Posted by Salicional (# 16461) on :

Yes, I agree...that would be unusual around here too. Although I suspect that more than a few pastors, needing to come up with a good sermon for Christmas Eve, will be tempted to skip a sermon in the morning and replace it with a carol-sing or something like that.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

@ Baptist Trainfan, and perhaps others thinking of not having a Christmas Eve morning service - do make the effort anyway, even if you don't get your usual Sunday morning turn-out.

There'll always be people who, for some reason, can't get to church late on Christmas Eve, or on Christmas morning, so some provision should IMHO be made for them at the usual Sunday morning time.

Perhaps a simpler service than usual, with a couple of Advent hymns, and a couple of Christmas carols? A brief meditation, instead of a sermon?

My tuppenceworth...

IJ

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Yes, worth considering I agree ...

One point is that IME "occasional" churchgoers tend not to think of going to a Nonconformist service. And we know that several of our regulars will have gone to the mysterious land of "away".

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Noted that 'occasionals' may not think of attending a Nonconformist Conventicle, so perhaps some aggressive advertising might help? Not at the expense of sheep-stealing from the local Established Church, of course! [Razz]

'Away' is indeed a popular place. Many of our so-called 'regulars' patronise its fleshpots, mostly at Easter, rather than at Christmas, in all fairness. [Disappointed]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The routine at our place will be:

Saturday 23rd December
5pm Carol Service

Sunday 24th
9.30am Parish Eucharist
5pm Festal Evensong
11.45pm Midnight Mass

Monday 25th
10am "Living Nativity" and family service
11.15am Festal Eucharist

Tuesday 26th
9.30am Eucharist with carols

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Noted that 'occasionals' may not think of attending a Nonconformist Conventicle, so perhaps some aggressive advertising might help? Not at the expense of sheep-stealing from the local Established Church, of course!

Actually - and this is different to anywhere else I've been - we probably are the most "high-profile" church as far as the public is concerned, together with the Catholics up the road.

The Anglicans (not Established here of course!) meet in the local CinW school and tend to get families who attend the school, however IMO they're fairly invisible to visitors. I don't know what they'll be doing over Christmas. I suspect that they don't, either, as a new Vicar is coming at the end of November!

I certainly agree about advertising, it's something I'm quite "hot" on.

[ 21. October 2017, 14:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

RE. "Away": Many years ago an Anglican colleague of mine stood up to conduct the service on Christmas morning. He told me later that the congregation was more or less the same size as on a normal Sunday, but that he hardly knew any of them!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

That happened once at Our Place, too. For some reason, our parish was a popular Christmas holiday venue that year... [Eek!]

Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :

Not recognising the congregation happens every Christmas Eve here, when a lot of the regulars are either at that mysterious away place, or in bed before 11 p.m. ( but they don't want the service earlier, because it has "always" been at midnight). Many if not most of those who come are holidaying at a local hotel, or are families of locals who do not attend, but whose offspring like to stay up for Christmas. It's a peculiar opportunity.
(No one asks if the minister, known for her early riding, is really going to be at her best at midnight.....)

Posted by Kayarecee (# 17289) on :

The place I serve (and afaik most of my co-denominationalists in other places) are having the regular Advent IV Sunday morning service, and the regular Christmas Eve service. A few of the bigger congregations are condensing multiple Sunday morning services into fewer, but few if any congregations are canceling their morning services outright.

I was actually a little surprised at how sanguine some of my worship committee were about the prospect of Sunday morning and Christmas Eve falling on the same day.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, Advent 4 and Christmas Eve do coincide every few years, so the question of what services to hold will also recur.

I hope, though, that churches (especially the smaller ones, with perhaps only one ordained minister) take into consideration the sheer amount of work - and hours - involved.

We don't have an Early Service (old C-of-E-speak for the once-ubiquitous 8am Communion), but spare a thought for those who still do! 8am, 1030am, 4pm, and 1130pm (say) on Advent 4/Christmas Eve, then 8am and 1030am (say) on Christmas morning, is a heavy workload, no matter how many others may be involved.

Understandably, some curtailment or amalgamation of services is called for.

IJ

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

As far as we're concerned, morning is Advent 4 and we move onto Christmas Eve in the afternoon. This therefore means we have:

08:30 Said Eucharist
10:30 Sung Eucharist
16:00 Crib Service
18:30 Carol service and finally
23:15 First Mass of Christmas

It's a busy day..... followed by a 10:30 Sung Eucharist on Christmas Day. Exhausting for choir and sacristy/serving team.

[ 21. October 2017, 20:51: Message edited by: kingsfold ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Busy indeed, and interesting to see that you have your Carol Service on Christmas Eve, too.

Round here, the usual practice is to have the Carol Service on the Sunday before Christmas i.e. Advent 3 this year, which spreads the load a bit!

IJ

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Can I barge in and ask a question? As someone who hasn't been Protestant in many years, and who never was in charge of planning services even when I was, what is noteworthy about Christmas Eve falling on a Sunday?

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Our schedule of services (Trinity Lutheran, Pullman, WA USA) will be as follows

10:30 AM Advent 4 Eucharist Service
7:30 PM Family Christmas Eve Service

Remember, the church clock goes from sunset to sunset, not from 12:00 midnight. So any service before sunset on 24 December would be an Advent Service, any service of after sunset would be Christmas eve service.

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Can I barge in and ask a question? As someone who hasn't been Protestant in many years, and who never was in charge of planning services even when I was, what is noteworthy about Christmas Eve falling on a Sunday?

The main question comes from how the normal Sunday services get balanced with the Christmas Eve service, and which of them takes precedence for the day. Also the other question around in some places being able to staff and sort all the different services.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by gog:
The main question comes from how the normal Sunday services get balanced with the Christmas Eve service, and which of them takes precedence for the day. Also the other question around in some places being able to staff and sort all the different services.

Part two here makes perfect sense. But if there's no regular Sunday Evening service, that at least wouldn't conflict with a "midnight" service, however long before midnight it's held. How many churches have services earlier in the day on Christmas Eve, and how early are we talking?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

If Christmas Eve were to fall on a weekday or Saturday, we would have our usual 930am service (either Morning Prayer or Eucharist), followed by preparation of the church for the 5pm Crib Service and 1145pm Midnight Mass.

The 930am service would use whatever lections etc. prescribed for 24th December that year.

A church with no daily services might simply mark Christmas Eve with their customary afternoon or evening services.

IJ

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Part two here makes perfect sense. But if there's no regular Sunday Evening service, that at least wouldn't conflict with a "midnight" service, however long before midnight it's held. How many churches have services earlier in the day on Christmas Eve, and how early are we talking?

With us, it's 5:00 and 11:00. The 5:00 service will be packed, the 11:00 service less so. In the church of my youth, it was 8:00 only.

Some of the larger churches around here have services at 5:00/5:30, 7:30/8:00 and 11:00/11:30. There’s one church nearby that also has a service at 3:30, geared to families with really small children.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Can I barge in and ask a question? As someone who hasn't been Protestant in many years, and who never was in charge of planning services even when I was, what is noteworthy about Christmas Eve falling on a Sunday?

TBH, I think the main issue is whether worshippers are going to turn up to morning services two days in a row. In many congregations the likelihood of decent numbers is low, so the clergy and their assistants will be disinclined to hold a full-blown Sunday service.

As for me, I'd rather like to attend an evening service on 24 December this year, so I hope I'm not travelling at the time.

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

10am "Living Nativity" and family service

What is a "Living Nativity" service?

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

10am "Living Nativity" and family service
What is a "Living Nativity" service?

Maybe I misunderstood, but I took L'organist to mean a living nativity scene (live people and animals) and a family service.

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

Oh! That makes sense. Thank you.

My mind was going to some deeply spiritual meditation... [Help]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Can I barge in and ask a question? As someone who hasn't been Protestant in many years, and who never was in charge of planning services even when I was, what is noteworthy about Christmas Eve falling on a Sunday?
TBH, I think the main issue is whether worshippers are going to turn up to morning services two days in a row. In many congregations the likelihood of decent numbers is low, so the clergy and their assistants will be disinclined to hold a full-blown Sunday service.

Yes, that's exactly the point for me.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

Does the RCC consider a Sunday that coincides with December 4 to be the 4th Sunday of Advent?

Mousethief, I know that the Russian and some other Orthodox Churches celebrate Christmas later, but when the day before Christmas coincides with a Sunday, do the Orthodox do exactly what would be done otherwise on the Sunday before Christmas, with maybe some of the evening things omitted or changed?

I am surprised based on your descriptions how many people attend services on Christmas Day (the 25th), at least in the UK. Here in the US, based on my observation, Christmas Day masses in RC churches can get a decent attendance, but nowhere near as many as attend the "family" services around 5 pm Christmas Eve (those tend to be overflowing). Midnight Mass in RC parishes rarely happens at midnight, and is generally less attended than the 5 pm service but more attended than Christmas Day service (although there is some variation).

In the US Episcopal Parishes I have attended, the 5 pm-ish service on Christmas Eve is still the best attended, followed by whatever nighttime/midnight service there may be. The Christmas Day service often has no choir and is just congregational singing of carols, and is often not very well attended.

Quite a few non-liturgical churches (but of course not all), especially the more evangelical ones, in the US do not have Christmas Day services at all, and sometimes say that this is so the pastor can spend time with his/her family. I doubt many people would come to a Christmas Day service even if they held one. Where there is a Christmas Eve service in these churches, it is either an afternoon family service, an evening Candlelight Service, or both. Often the Nativity Pageant Service or Nativity Scene Service done on the 1 or 2 Sundays before Christmas is the best attended "Christmas" service at these congregations, and the one with the biggest productions with music, etc.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
TBH, I think the main issue is whether worshippers are going to turn up to morning services two days in a row. In many congregations the likelihood of decent numbers is low, so the clergy and their assistants will be disinclined to hold a full-blown Sunday service.
Yes, that's exactly the point for me.

I think here, it's more whether people will turn up for two services in one day. Most non-Catholic churches around here don't seem to have a service on Christmas morning. Of those that do (usually Episcopal or maybe Lutheran or Presbyterian), Christmas morning services typically are not as well attended as Christmas Eve services.

That’s why last year was the year lots of churches around here were having a discussion similar to the one in this thread. I know of some churches that cancelled the Sunday service because it fell on Christmas.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

That's interesting. In Britain Christmas morning is traditionally a time when people attend church who wouldn't do so otherwise, so for churches (mainstream Protestant ones at least) not to have services at that time would seem very strange.

Mind you, I'm wondering if things have started to change in recent years. It's possible that Advent services are now more popular than Christmas day services. I think this is because both regulars and visitors are more likely to attend during Advent, whereas the regulars are often away for Christmas day, and Christmas day visitors are fewer in number than they used to be.

[ 22. October 2017, 12:34: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I've often felt that the Sunday a week or so before Christmas is "bigger" than Christmas itself - may be different, of course, in all the lovely places that people go away "to"!

Same is true of Palm Sunday/Easter IME. Which is a shame.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Stonespring with his wide experience of both RC and Episcopal church must surely know that in the RC church at least the four Sundays before Christmas are the four Advent Sundays and that these Sundays,each and every one ,are important Sundays,liturgically speaking - Sundays which cannot be replaced by any other celebration.

(That being said pope Francis gave permission a few years ago for the Immaculate Conception to be celebrated on what was the Second Sunday of Advent - but only in Italy, where 8th December is a major public holiday).

Thus Sunday 24th December is the Fourth Sunday of Advent in the Roman liturgy with that liturgy being celebrated from the Saturday evening to the Sunday evening.

Christmas Eve as such is not really a big deal,liturgically,in the RC church,though the celebration of the Nativity can be,as is the case every Sunday or Holiday of Obligation, anticipated from the afternoon of the previous day.

Anticipated Masses of Christmas day are now very popular,particularly with people with young families.There are often as many as 2,000 people at the late afternoon Mass in the RC cathedral in the town where I live. There are probably not as many at the Midnight Mass in the same cathedral.

Christmas morning is still a popular time for RC services and there is usually standing room only in our parish church on Christmas morning.

Over 50 years ago here in Scotland Presbyterian churches did not celebrate Christmas as a religious festival and 25th December was an ordinary working day, although it was a great family festival. Since the 1950s many Presbyterian churches (but not all !) have celebrated well attended 'Watchnight' services of carols and a good number will now also have a short family service on Christmas morning. Just as the Catholic 'midnight' Mass is now often anticipated at various times on the evening of Christmas Eve so also do some Presbyterian churches have services at some point in the evening.

Episcopal churches,on the whole, do the same as Catholic churches.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

The traditional Anglican Midnight (or thereabouts) Mass does seem to have lost its appeal in this area, though most churches continue to hold one. I wonder whether perhaps an earlier service e.g. 8pm might not be a better idea...

Our Place has seen attendance drop from around 50 to about 30 in recent years, with Christmas morning increasing a bit (except for last year, when everyone went to Away).

A neighbouring parish has a fairly well-attended Midnight Service, with a said 9am BCP Communion on Christmas morning as the only service on that day. Last year, attendance at 9am was priest + 2.

IJ

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's interesting. In Britain Christmas morning is traditionally a time when people attend church who wouldn't do so otherwise, so for churches (mainstream Protestant ones at least) not to have services at that time would seem very strange.

That’s Christmas Eve here*, at least for non-Catholic churches. I can’t speak to the RC dynamic.

Here, Christmas Eve is A Big Deal churchwise. Churches will likely be full or close to, good music will be planned, candles will abound, folks will dress up, and you’ll see lots of people who otherwise don’t come to church.

Christmas morning services, for those churches that have them, will be less well attended and will likely be more informal. (Children are encouraged to come in their pajamas to ours.) There may not be a choir. Those who do attend will likely have been at a Christmas Eve service the night before. I think as a general rule, the home rather than the church is considered the locus of Christmas Day celebrations.

* By “here,” I mean my corner of the American South. Things could well be different in other parts of the country.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
On a side note, why are there only three Sundays of Advent when Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday? Couldn't Advent start one week earlier to fit four Sundays in?

Not for the first time, this is a thread that has already built up by the time I come across it, so I apologise if I inadvertently repeat anything that has already been said earlier on.

Who said there are only three Sundays in Advent this year, with Christmas Eve itself falling on a Sunday?

Last year in 2016, Christmas Day itself fell on a Sunday, when the most could be made of Advent IV, allowing for the full week to occur, of all seven days in Advent, before Christmas was upon us. This year of 2017, the reverse occurs, so that only minimal use of Sunday Advent IV can be made, so that this Sunday becomes the only day of the fourth week of Advent. So in any year, the length of the fourth week in Advent, is shorter or longer (with more or fewer days) depending on the fall of December dates with days of the week in that year.

But Advent in every year has all four Sundays. If it coincides with Christmas Eve, as it does this year, then that Sunday becomes two liturgical days, making it Advent IV in the morning and Christmas Eve in the afternoon and evening. This of course, has its effects, very likely causing smaller morning congregations that Sunday.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

As a child I would have found it very strange to go to church on Christmas Day. The Midnight service was the one we went to (not until I was old enough, though).

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The traditional Anglican Midnight (or thereabouts) Mass does seem to have lost its appeal in this area, though most churches continue to hold one. I wonder whether perhaps an earlier service e.g. 8pm might not be a better idea...

Our Place has seen attendance drop from around 50 to about 30 in recent years, with Christmas morning increasing a bit (except for last year, when everyone went to Away).

A neighbouring parish has a fairly well-attended Midnight Service, with a said 9am BCP Communion on Christmas morning as the only service on that day. Last year, attendance at 9am was priest + 2.

IJ

Interesting - the opposite seems to be the case where I live in North London with all the Christmas Eve services (Crib and Midnight Mass, and Vigil Mass for Catholics) packed but quieter on Christmas morning though a few churches have started having carols at the 8am which is rather nice.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, it's clearly different for other places!

Our 5pm Christmas Eve Crib Service has gone from strength to strength in recent years, but I think this may simply reflect the changing demographics of the parish - more young families, and fewer older people.

Over the past few months, we've had a number of people from different ethnic and cultural backgrounds join us, so I'll be interested to see what Christmas services they choose to attend. The result may give us an indication of what changes, if any, to make next year.

Personally, I'd prefer to have a 'First Mass of Christmas' at 8pm on Christmas Eve, so that we'd at least get a reasonable break before 1030am on Christmas Day, but we have reactionaries who believe that the Christmas Gospel (i.e. the Johannine Prologue) must be read at midnight on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day, or else It Is Not Valid.

I'm serious... [Eek!]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

And you can only sing "It came upon a midnight clear" at the witching hour. [Devil]

Mind you, I'd steer clear of using it at an 8am early morning service without very good reason.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Personally, I'd prefer to have a 'First Mass of Christmas' at 8pm on Christmas Eve, so that we'd at least get a reasonable break before 1030am on Christmas Day.

Ha! We'll get you into the One True Church yet! [Cool]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

LOL!

I started off in what might then be described as a conservative/open Evangelical C of E parish (though currently it is charismatic-evo), but quite how I've found myself ministering in a backstreet A-C parish*, I have no idea.

I am told that God has a GSOH.

IJ

*which I love dearly, and wouldn't change for worlds, even if they were to be smothered in mustard.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Of course,in what I consider to be the principal part of the 'One True Church' the Gospel at Midnight Mass is that telling of the birth of the Messiah and the song of the Angels. The Gospel at the Second Mass (Missa in Aurora/Dawn Mass/Shepherds' Mass while the Gospel at the Mass of the Day is the Prologue of St John.
The Gospel for the Anticipated Vigil Mass is about the Genealogy of Jesus from St Matthew.

These are the traditional readings for these days, however nowadays the rubrics for the evening of 24th December say :
'This Mass is celebrated on the evening of 24th December,either before,or after First Vespers (Evening Prayer I) of the Nativity
The readings may be used also for Masses on Christmas Day,with the option of choosing from one or other of the three sets of readings ACCORDING TO THE PASTORAL NEEDS OF EACH CONGREGATION.'

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Sorry I missed out the Gospel passage for the Dawn Mass which is about the visit of the shepherds to Bethlehem.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

At our place (Anglican US) we're having one morning eucharist at 11 am, instead of our usual three services (7:30, 9 and 11 am). Then in the afternoon we swing into all the Christmas Eve services: the 4 pm children's service, the 5:30, the 7:30, and the 11:30 pm. These come complete with choir, eucharist, carols, Living Nativity (Mary, Joseph, baby, 3 Kings, an angel or so), an even more elaborate Living Nativity between the services out in front (added animals, usually a donkey, sometimes a cow, one very grand year a camel).
There is one service on Christmas Day at 10:30 am, usually very sparsely attended. All of this is very exhausting for choir, Altar Guild and clergy, and for some years now I have never been in town -- this year I'm going to Atlanta to visit my grandson.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

In which case, of course, the faithful who attend all three Masses do get the full story, as it were.

IIRC, much the same pattern was followed in the Church Of My Yoof (con/open evo, mostly BCP), with services at 1130pm on Christmas Eve ('Midnight Communion' - the word 'Mass' was never used, being Popish), 8am Communion on Christmas Day, and a sort of 'Family Morning Prayer' at 11am on Christmas Day. The latter was followed at around 12 noon by a shortened BCP Communion, beginning at 'Ye that do truly and earnestly repent you, etc.'

Back in those dear, dead days, beyond recall, we not only had a full church on Christmas Eve, but also maybe 30-40 at 8am Communion (with hymns!), and another fairly full house of adults and children at 11am. We usually had another 30 or so staying for the shortened Communion at noon, too.

O happy times!

IJ

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

(Noted re Brenda's church, but cross-posted with Forthview).

IJ

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

We're dropping the 8.00
10.30 Sung Eucharist - firmly Advent, purple.
4.30 Family Informal Carols
11.30pm Solemn Eucharist

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Sounds sensible - do you have an 8.00am on Christmas morning?

That's the one which used to get a fairly good congregation at The Church Of My Yoof, given that it was handy for those with family etc. commitments later in the Day.

Given the paucity of clergy these days (where are all the Assistant Curates of yore?), it does mean that services may simply have to be curtailed, out of sheer compassion for the overworked priests who are left...

IJ

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
On a side note, why are there only three Sundays of Advent when Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday? Couldn't Advent start one week earlier to fit four Sundays in?
Not for the first time, this is a thread that has already built up by the time I come across it, so I apologise if I inadvertently repeat anything that has already been said earlier on.

Who said there are only three Sundays in Advent this year, with Christmas Eve itself falling on a Sunday?

Last year in 2016, Christmas Day itself fell on a Sunday, when the most could be made of Advent IV, allowing for the full week to occur, of all seven days in Advent, before Christmas was upon us. This year of 2017, the reverse occurs, so that only minimal use of Sunday Advent IV can be made, so that this Sunday becomes the only day of the fourth week of Advent. So in any year, the length of the fourth week in Advent, is shorter or longer (with more or fewer days) depending on the fall of December dates with days of the week in that year.

But Advent in every year has all four Sundays. If it coincides with Christmas Eve, as it does this year, then that Sunday becomes two liturgical days, making it Advent IV in the morning and Christmas Eve in the afternoon and evening. This of course, has its effects, very likely causing smaller morning congregations that Sunday.

After checking the USCCB (RC) and US Episcopal Liturgical Calendars online, I now realize how wrong I was. December 24 this year is the 4th Sunday in Advent. I have an app for Roman Catholics called iMissal (by no means a liturgical authority!) that only listed December 24 day services and evening vigil and midnight services for December 25 as happening on December 24 this year. I looked at my iBCP (also not an official liturgical authority!) app for what US Episcopalians were doing and it said "Christmas Eve" in big letters with "The Fourth Sunday of Advent" in tiny letters below it. In stupid haste I became mortified that the day services of December 24 were replacing or overshadowing the Fourth Sunday of Advent this year and, mortified, rushed to start this thread. I apologize.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Don't worry stonespring!
It has resulted in a very enlightening glimpse of how lots of us plan for this special time of year.
I worship at our Cathedral which as would be expected is going with 4th Sunday of Advent (dropping the 8.00 am Communion) and then the Christmas Eve services:
10.30am Eucharist
2.30pm Crib Service
4.00pm Crib Service
5.30pm Evensong
11pm Midnight Mass

What is really exciting is that this is the first year we have done two Crib services- numbers have been growing over the years and last year was packed with loads of families who don't normally attend, too many really. A lovely problem to have!

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
What is really exciting is that this is the first year we have done two Crib services- numbers have been growing over the years and last year was packed with loads of families who don't normally attend, too many really. A lovely problem to have!

I fear that I have asked this before but have failed to retain the helpful information provided in answer to my question, so apologies in advance:

What is a Crib Service? That’s not a term one hears here.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

We Salvationists will have our normal morning meeting at 10am and then, instead of our 5.15 evening meeting we will do what we have done for the last 2 Christmas Eves we will take our brass band outside and stand at the town market cross / civic Christmas tree for an open air carol service that will be attended by up to 200 people who will gather from who knows where and sing along with us for about half an hour.

This year I though we'd give everyone a glow stick.
Entirely meaningless but it will look nice and give everyone something to wave.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

We will have our regular 9am and 10.30 services but will drop the 6.30pm Evensong and just have midnight "mass" instead. I think Christmas Day will be 9am and 10.30.

Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on :

Sunday morning is usually 8 and 10 (hymns). On Dec 24 we’ll only have the said service using Advent 4 lessons. Out of courtesy for our Altar Guild we will roll out the simple nave altar for that. This allows the AG folk to change chancel altar frontal, put out flowers, etc. during the week or on Saturday. I’d expect maybe 5, if that.

Sunday at 5pm will be the usual Christmas Eucharist with hymns. Parish tradition is nothing on Christmas Day.

Saturday Dec. 30 will be 5PM Eucharist for Christmas 1 with hymns and no sermon, followed by festive pot luck and farewell party for my clergy colleague and I, whose contracts as interim team expire. No service Sunday the 31st. (Darn! – I love preaching on the prologue to John’s gospel!)

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I think that is much more of an issue when Christmas Eve is on a Friday. After work there is the children's service plus midnight mass later on. Come Christmas Day there are the festival services and then the usual service on the Sunday. This is a big toll on the choir who have work commitments as well as church. In my church the choir is a dedicated group who receive no pay for all the hard work.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
What is really exciting is that this is the first year we have done two Crib services- numbers have been growing over the years and last year was packed with loads of families who don't normally attend, too many really. A lovely problem to have!
I fear that I have asked this before but have failed to retain the helpful information provided in answer to my question, so apologies in advance:

What is a Crib Service? That’s not a term one hears here.

I can't answer for elsewhere but at our Cathedral we have a large scale and very lovely Nativity scene- not life-size but still large. The Crib service takes place around the scene in the Nave of the Cathedral using a more child-friendly liturgy/ service format. Some children come dressed as shepherds etc. As far as I can tell it has become an annual event for lots of families seeking to add something numinous to their Christmas celebrations.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

With us it'll be like this. The fourth Sunday of Advent will be the usual Eucharist for main Sunday morning service as per the lectionary. That it happens to fall on Christmas Eve this year makes no difference.

As it is Christmas Eve, however, we'll run a crib service about five o'clock.

And then there'll be the first communion of Christmas, beginning at 11.30pm that night; aka the midnight communion service.

Christmas Day will be a Christmas Day Eucharist in the morning.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Christmas Eve
10.45 am Morning Service as usual - John 1 (end 12 pm)
11.30 pm Reflective Service for Christmas
(from 8 pm give out soup/coffee to passers by)
Ends 12.15 am

Christmas Day
10.30 am All age celebration ends 11.15 am

Fit in home communions/hospital visits as necessary including seeing anyone in hospital on Christmas Morning after the service

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
What is a Crib Service? That’s not a term one hears here.

This?

I've been to a Blessing of the Crib where no dressing-up [priests excepted [Roll Eyes]

] took place but a carved wooden Baby Jesus was processed to a nativity scene in the altar. Prayers were read. Are these similar?

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
What is a Crib Service? That’s not a term one hears here.
This?

I've been to a Blessing of the Crib where no dressing-up [priests excepted ] took place but a carved wooden Baby Jesus was processed to a nativity scene in the altar. Prayers were read. Are these similar?

This is where I worship!
If you click the link for "Advent and Christmas" you'll see that two crib services are planned this year, no doubt due to increased attendance.
Which as I said above is a really encouraging development, given some of the depressing press the C of E has recently received.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I think that is much more of an issue when Christmas Eve is on a Friday. After work there is the children's service plus midnight mass later on. Come Christmas Day there are the festival services and then the usual service on the Sunday. This is a big toll on the choir who have work commitments as well as church. In my church the choir is a dedicated group who receive no pay for all the hard work.

Still less work than Holy Week...

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I think that is much more of an issue when Christmas Eve is on a Friday. After work there is the children's service plus midnight mass later on. Come Christmas Day there are the festival services and then the usual service on the Sunday. This is a big toll on the choir who have work commitments as well as church. In my church the choir is a dedicated group who receive no pay for all the hard work.
Still less work than Holy Week...

I might have mentioned that in my earlier post on this thread.

With Christmas Day on a Saturday, followed next day by a Sunday, worshippers may concentrate on being in church, as expected, on Christmas Day, very likely resulting in that Sunday being rather low-key, with reduced numbers attending on the second of those two consecutive days.

I will have to check my information, but I believe that in the USA in any year, the main worship services take place on Christmas Eve (including midnight), so that on Christmas morning, there may be a low-key service or no services at all.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Not sure about Holy Week necessarily being busier than Christmas-time...

With Palm Sunday and Easter Sunday always falling on a Sunday (!), Our Place usually has only two extra Holy Week services to worry about, to wit, the Maundy Thursday Mass, and the Good Friday Liturgy.

(We don't have a separate Easter Vigil, preferring to have the Blessing and Lighting of the Paschal Candle at the beginning of the Easter morning Mass.)

Christmas this year brings not only the usual Sunday services, but also Carol Service, Christingle Service, Crib Service, Midnight Mass, and Christmas morning Mass.

IJ

Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on :

As originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip Flop.

quote:
I will have to check my information, but I believe that in the USA in any year, the main worship services take place on Christmas Eve (including midnight), so that on Christmas morning, there may be a low-key service or no services at all.

So true, and it is the practice in my current shack to have a Christmas Eve service only. However, it ignores the needs or outreach to those whose non church going families insist on a Christmas Eve dinner/party, etc., leaving the church goer high and dry for a service.

In my old shack we perhaps double covered this: on the Eve we'd do a 3PM service for those not wanting to be out after dark and/or needing to go to family gatherings. A 7 or 8 PM service as "midnight" service; and then a 9 AM Christmas Day service for those not able to come on the Eve.

Posted by irreverend tod (# 18773) on :

We'll have the Carol Service on the 17th, as two of the large families in the village have a get together with compulsory church attendance ( and guidance on suitable giving. 9am on Christmas Eve, midnight service in the mother ship (big sister church) and 9 am on Christmas Day at ours for the hardy of the parish.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Well assuming it's the pattern as in the past it'll be a Choral Eucharist at 11.00. I doubt if there'll be Evensong but there might well be a crib service - which is quite popular - and Choral Eucharist at 11.30pm. There is a Eucharist on Christmas morning, but the one that is well attended is the 11.30pm on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day a lot less so. Quite a few years back we tried an 8.00pm First Eucharist but the numbers weren't good and since going back to Midnight the attendances are a lot better. Of course quite a few people will be away as well.......

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Sorry - I meant to say that it will be Advent 4 on the Sunday AFAICT

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

In our multi-parish benefice the services for the 24th & 25th look like this:

Sunday 24 December

8 am BCP HC (4th Sunday of Advent--Purple) Church 1
3 pm Lessons & Carols --- Church 2
4:30 pm Crib Service --Church 1 (huge congregation)
11 pm First mass of Christmas--Church 3 (visiting priest)
11 pm First mass of Christmas--Church 1

Monday 25 December
8 am BCP Holy Communion--Church 1
9:30 Parish Communion--Church 2
11.00--Parish Communion with Sunday School--Church 1
3 pm--Holy Communion in tiny Church 4

I do feel very badly about not having the 9.30 and the 11 o'clock services on Christmas eve, but the servers and organists (who are all volunteers) have put their collective feet down.

[ 25. October 2017, 06:35: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Sounds sensible - do you have an 8.00am on Christmas morning?IJ

No - clergy catching up on sleep.

Last time I went to an 8 on Xmas Day, I was the only one there apart from the priest

[ 25. October 2017, 19:11: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Yes, and in any case the old 8am 'Early Service' has disappeared from many parishes.

Mind you, I can recall an 8am service on Christmas Day in the Church Of My Yoof with 40-50 people present, a brief sermon from the Vicar, and a couple of hymns as well.

(There would have been Matins with Carols at 11am, followed by a shortened Communion - all BCP in those days).

IJ

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Not sure about Holy Week necessarily being busier than Christmas-time...

With Palm Sunday and Easter Sunday always falling on a Sunday (!), Our Place usually has only two extra Holy Week services to worry about, to wit, the Maundy Thursday Mass, and the Good Friday Liturgy.

(We don't have a separate Easter Vigil, preferring to have the Blessing and Lighting of the Paschal Candle at the beginning of the Easter morning Mass.)

Christmas this year brings not only the usual Sunday services, but also Carol Service, Christingle Service, Crib Service, Midnight Mass, and Christmas morning Mass.

IJ

Holy week at my place involves 8 services plus one special rehearsal in 8 days for volunteer singers, and 10 services plus one special rehearsal in 8 days for staff singers. Between Advent IV, Christmas Eve, and Christmas day, we're having 1 call in 2 days for volunteers, and 4 in 2 days for staff, with no special rehearsals. So it's really no contest. (And by consolidating the usual three services from a normal Advent IV into one for this year, on the assumption that most people will only come in the evening, I think we are actually going to save money on staff singers over a typical year.)

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, I did have my tongue slightly in my cheek!

We may well run a minimalist Holy Week at Our Place, but I do appreciate the fact that, for many churches, it's just as heavily-laden a season as Christmas.

I only wish we could do more, but it's hard enough to muster a congregation on Sundays, let alone other major Holy Days.

IJ

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

This year I though we'd give everyone a glow stick.
Entirely meaningless but it will look nice and give everyone something to wave.

And therefore not meaningless!

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I think that is much more of an issue when Christmas Eve is on a Friday. After work there is the children's service plus midnight mass later on. Come Christmas Day there are the festival services and then the usual service on the Sunday. This is a big toll on the choir who have work commitments as well as church. In my church the choir is a dedicated group who receive no pay for all the hard work.

Almost sounds like the typical audiovisual team workload... several services to set up for, run V, record it all, cut masters, tear down... collapse.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The thing about Palm Sunday to Easter Day is that the whole shebang is compressed into 8 days; whereas things like carol services, Christingle, etc, can be further spread so there isn't the same gridlock - at least thats what I tell myself.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Up to a point, though our Madam Sacristan complains most bitterly if we even think of having the Carol Service as early as Advent 3!

This year, of course, there's not really (for us, anyway) an alternative date, though I do wonder if perhaps one year we could save the carol service for Epiphanytide.

IJ

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

"Purists" would insist on no Christmas carols until Advent is well and truly over and not before Christmas Eve. But the "real world" isn't like that anymore.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, quite. But our dear Madam Sacristan sometimes doesn't acknowledge the Real World...bless 'er.

IJ

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

For us non-liturgical traditions, the conflict is when Christmas Eve is on Saturday. We axed the Sunday am service last year when it fell on Christmas Day, and focused on the Christmas Eve service. But this year, we'll go all out on Christmas Eve-- regular Sunday am service with evening Christmas Eve services (as well as dinner at our shelter for our homeless neighbors)

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

In big towns or cities you might have different services, but I have six parishes (in a more rural area), and I am going to be at three different places on Christmas Eve (the other parishes will have substitute priests). On Christmas Day I will have two services, and on Boxing Day one (although it will function as a Christmas Day service). All these three will be at three different parishes.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Are all six services Eucharists, k-mann?

[Eek!]

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

In our rural benefice we have 11 churches, three of which are only in use twice a year – of which one is of course Christmas (the other being either Easter or Harvest).

On Sunday 24.12., the 'hub church' has a regular Sunday Eucharist in the morning for Advent 4.

In a previous parish context, early-December special services were successfully slanted as being for Advent rather than Christmas, but in the rural context here, each village wants its own specifically Christmas-themed service, and for scheduling reasons these need to get started early in the month.

The Christmas carousel starts on Advent 1 with the first 3 village carols services, plus one more midweek; 3 more on Advent 2, plus one more midweek; two more on Advent 3; and the last village service in the early evening on Christmas Eve.

In the hub church, Christingle will come on Advent 1; we will also host two non-parochial carols services (Scouts, Town Band) in the first half of December; the IX Lessons and Carols will be on Wed 20.12., and a Crib Service for parents and young children on Christmas Eve afternoon. We have two parallel Midnight Masses (hub and largest village church).

By Christmas Day we are down to a single Christmas Eucharist for the whole benefice, in the hub church.

That’s 18 specifically Christmas-themed services between Advent 1 and Christmas Day, with five of them between midday on Christmas Eve and midday on Christmas Day – plus 14 ‘regular’ i e non-Christmas services. We will not have any ‘extra’ services thereafter.

On Sunday 31.12., being a Fifth Sunday in the month, we will follow our usual pattern with a single service for the whole benefice (held in different churches in rotation).

We have 2 full-time clergy (one will be away until mid-month, however), 2 nonstipendiaries, and one retired priest; also 2 Readers and 4 authorized lay ministers or as some dioceses would call them authorized worship leaders. Unsurprisingly, they all have parts to play somewhere on this carousel.

I personally love the idea of Advent as a Time of Expectation, and recognize the traditional liturgical argument that Christmas services shouldn’t start until the Feast of the Nativity, but could well continue throughout Christmastide up to the Epiphany. But that will only work for seriously liturgically-minded communities (e g in monasteries!). With all the pre-Christmas hype in secular society around us, it simply will not work to try to follow that logic in a parish context.

Posted by Barnabas Aus (# 15869) on :

In our three-centre Australian country parish, we will celebrate Advent 4 with a Saturday Vigil in our parish church followed by 2 Sunday eucharists [8.30am and 10.00am] in the smaller centres.

Christmas services begin with a family eucharist with setting up of the crib at 5.30pm, followed by Midnight Mass and Blessing of the Crib, commencing at 11.30pm, both in the parish church, and the 8.30 and 10.00 eucharists on Christmas Day.

This with a parish priest and one non-stipendiary local priest, although the priest's husband is about to be ordained deacon and will preach at Midnight Mass and Christmas Day.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Are all six services Eucharists, k-mann?

Not the first three, on Christmas Eve. The three others are, on Christmas Day and Boxing Day.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Thanks!

Next question - what form do the Christmas Eve services take?

IJ

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Thanks!

Next question - what form do the Christmas Eve services take?

IJ

I'd expect that there'd be a normal Sunday AM service, whatever you normally do, advent hymns/carols, then a child orientated (more honest than "all age", methinks) at around 5.30 (calms the dears down before tea-time; appeals to parents that, but please, late enough for the Kings College Nine Lessons to have finished!), half an hour, put the last figures in the crib saving Jesus himself, few words about Christmas being even better than Santa, pressies and throwing up through eating too much Chrimbo pud, few child-friendly carols (but please not Away in a Manger, minging thing that it is) then Midnight Mass, perhaps said (with carols, obviously, wherever a hymn can be slid in in the rubrics) to avoid the non-regulars getting lost in the sung Gloria/Sanctus/Agnus Dei, with a nip of Sherry and a mince pie as people leave,

Well, that'd get my vote, any road.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, that's more-or-less what we do, but I was actually asking k-mann what sort of non-eucharistic services he conducts on Christmas Eve in Norway.

The Norwegian Lutheran Eucharist is not dissimilar to that of the C of E, I believe.

IJ

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

This is how we do it:

Prelude
Entrance hymn.
Introductory words (either "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" or "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.").
Entrance prayer / collect.
Kyrie and Gloria.
Reading (Isaiah 9.1a.2.6-7).
Hymn.
Gospel reading.
Homily.
Creed.
Hymn.
Prayers of the people and the Lord's Prayer, followed by some announcements.
Offering.
Hymn.
Blessing and clock himing.
Postlude.
Dismissal.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

And this will be the Festal Eucharist on Christmas Day:

Prelude.
Entrance hymn.
Introductory words ("in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit").
Entrance prayer / collect.
Kyrie and Gloria.
First reading (Proverbs 8:1-2.22-31).
Hymn or music.
Second reading (Heb. 1:1-6).
Introduction to the homily and hymn.
Gospel (Joh 1:1-14).
Allelujah (alle står).
Homily.
Nicene Creed.
Hymn.
Confession of sin.
Prayers.
Announcements.
Offertory (with a hymn).
Preface and sanctus.
Eucharistic prayer.
The Lord's prayer.
Peace.
Invite to communion and Agnus Dei.
Communion.
Hymn.
Blessing and clock himing.
Postlude.
Dismissal.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

What is clock himing? Is it a Norwegian phrase that doesn't translate into English, or is it a curious custom that all Lutherans take for granted but the rest of us have never heard of? And is it just to do with Christmas or something you do all the year round?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Clock chiming, perhaps?

Otherwise, the Christmas Eve services in k-mann's churches are what we, I guess, would call 'Services Of The Word', doubtless with suitable Christmas hymns!

(I know the Church of Sweden has a number of 'our' carols and hymns, often to familiar tunes.)

IJ

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

Yes, it's clock chiming. And this is also called a Service of the Word in Norway. We also have a good number of Anglican hymns in Norway (translated into Norwegian), as well as some melodies. The one I can name off the top of my head is The Church's One Foundation.

We also sing Dear Lord and Father of Mankind, which is written by an W. Garrett Horder, and we sing it with the British melody by Hubert Parry. But I don't think that qualifies as Anglican (apart from the tune). It was based on a poem by an American Quaker poet and Horder was a congregationalist.

We also have a few Christmas hymns by Charles Wesley, but I'm not sure if he qualifies as Anglican.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

I grew up in the Assemblies of God (a Pentecostal, Evangelical, sometimes approaching Fundamentalist denomination). In that denomination, at least in the churches I was familiar with in Southeast Michigan, services were on Sunday. Most of the time, Christmas fell during the week, and there wasn't a church service the day of or the night before. I suspect that was too Catholic or something. But that's also a tradition that is more like the secular culture in that it's all Christmas carols leading up to Christmas...and the actual holiday is about family - you should spend it with your family, not go to church!

OK, so I'm Episcopalian now, and being fairly catholic, we would never contemplate not having Mass on a Sunday morning OR not having Mass on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning! Or singing Christmas carols before the sun goes down on December 24th.

The main reason I don't have whiplash is that I spent about a decade between leaving the A/G and joining TEC. [Razz]

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

k-mann skrev: sorry, wrote:

quote:
this is also called a Service of the Word in Norway

...and it is essentially identical with the Sanajumalanpalvelus, i e Service of the Word, in the Church of Finland – and with the Antecommunion formerly found in C of E liturgies, i e it's the Liturgy of the Word without the Liturgy of the Sacrament. (I have an unreliable recollection of attending one on a Good Friday in the bad old days.) Services of the Word in the C of E are much more flexible, and not tied to the sequence of components in the Eucharistic liturgy.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Thanks for the explanations, gentlemen.

Yes, indeed - 'A Service Of The Word' is rather more flexible these days than the old Ante-Communion.

(BTW, Charles Wesley was an Anglican...and many of his hymns are still in the repertoire).

IJ

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Charles was of course an Anglican, but not in good standing with his denomination back in the day. His work aided the cause of schism, after all.

But in the long run the CofE is good at absorbing all kinds of influences, even from dubious sources. In due course, it's likely to swallow up whole denominations.

Talking of which, I wonder how common it is for churches to hold ecumenical services at Christmastime. It would be a good solution for a a couple of neighbouring congregations that don't want to hold four services two days in a row if the turnout is unlikely to be high.

[ 03. November 2017, 22:22: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

We did hold a joint Carol Service a few years ago with our local Baptist church (they meet on Sundays in a nearby Community Centre).

The service was well-received, with lessons read, and music/songs provided, by people from both congregations, and a super homily from the Baptist minister.

Alas, for various reasons (inertia on the part of our dear Father F**kwit being one), the service was a one-off. So far - next year, perhaps, we'll have another go!

IJ

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.

But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Perhaps k-mann meant that he'd like one of his Christmas Eve services to have a 'Nine Lessons etc.' format, rather than the usual Service of the Word?

I sometimes think that the C of E is fortunate in having so many seasonal options, not only for the main Eucharist, but also for arranging 'one-off' services.

In previous years at Our Place we've had an Advent Sunday evening penitential liturgy (based on the O Antiphons), a Christingle Service attended by our Scouts/Cubs/Beavers as an 'end-of-term' activity, a 'Six Lessons and Carols' service, and a simple Crib Service - all produced 'in house' from Common Worship material, and all lay-led.

We're omitting the Advent Sunday evening service this year, but otherwise it's business as usual (and we do offer Midnight Mass and Christmas morning Mass, too).

IJ

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.
But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.

But Christmas Eve takes precedence in practice, at least in Norway. If we had cut out the Christmas Eve celebration and had a celebration of the Fourth Sunday of Advent, we would never hear the end of it. It's also a question of the size of the parish. My largest parish has 2500 members. My smallest has 170.

Posted by verity (# 18571) on :

We have always done 10am eucharist as normal.
If Christmas Eve is on a Sunday, the 9 Lessons and Carols service is the previous week, the 17th, so the services on Christmas Eve will be

10am Sunday Eucharist
11:30pm Midnight Mass

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The trouble with 9 Lessons & Carols on Christmas Eve is that (a) there is the broadcast from King's College, Cambridge, at 3 which many of those likely to go to a church service will listen to; and (b) in an average parish its a big ask to get the choir out to do a carol service at, say, 6pm and then back again for Midnight Mass, and again on Christmas Day. Sure, if you have a big enough choir you can maybe cope with some absences at either Midnight or on Christmas Day but in smaller choirs this is not an option.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

And - as I suggested above - it's very likely that some of your most gifted choristers will have absconded to the land of Away, especially this year with Christmas Day falling on a Monday.

Years ago we used to go to Midnight Service at a London church with a fine musical tradition (my wife taught at its school). Each year the Director of Music essayed a service setting by Victoria. It should have been lovely - but, with the depleted forces at his disposal, it never was. [Frown]

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

quote:
posted by L'organist:
its a big ask to get the choir out to do a carol service at, say, 6pm and then back again for Midnight Mass, and again on Christmas Day.

Indeed. And yet that is what we are asked to do. Each year (except it's 6.30pm). The junior choristers are also asked to be at the crib service at 4pm, though not at midnight (older ones may come if they wish) and are all asked to be there on Christmas morning. The adult choristers are asked to be there for everything except the crib service.

Admittedly we are a Cathedral, but we are a voluntary, non-professional choir. And this year adults are also asked to be there for the Advent 4 Eucharist. It is VERY big ask.

[ 07. November 2017, 13:39: Message edited by: kingsfold ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

And - dare I say - some (paid) Directors of Music may be so focussed on "what needs to be done" that they forget you are volunteers and have other things you wish to do over Christmas. So may members of the congregation who just "assume" that the choir will do their thing.

[ 07. November 2017, 15:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve. We had it in my parish in Bergen, Norway (when I was a student), on the fourth Sunday of Advent.
But this year, Christmas Eve and Advent IV are one and the same day.
But Christmas Eve takes precedence in practice, at least in Norway. If we had cut out the Christmas Eve celebration and had a celebration of the Fourth Sunday of Advent, we would never hear the end of it. It's also a question of the size of the parish. My largest parish has 2500 members. My smallest has 170.

With Advent IV and Christmas Eve falling on the same day, I did not say that one supercedes the other. If that is what happens in Norway, then that is up to the Norwegians in their own Country.

What I said earlier on this thread, is that with this year's occurance on the same day, Advent IV should be observed in the morning, with observance of Christmas Eve taking over from the afternoon onwards - that is as far as the Church is concerned. In the secular world, anything goes, of course.

This year, with the coincidence of Sunday date on 24th December, Sunday carol services before Christmas, are taking place on Advent III 17th December, which is the anomoly by living in the 21st century "real world".

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
What I said earlier on this thread, is that with this year's occurance on the same day, Advent IV should be observed in the morning, with observance of Christmas Eve taking over from the afternoon onwards - that is as far as the Church is concerned.

Yes, and it would be lovely if I could do so. But I have six parishes.

Posted by Fuzzipeg (# 10107) on :

I am not sure what we will be doing but I am sure we will ditch the 5,30pm evening Mass on Christmas Eve.
I was amused at the comment that there would be absence owing to Christmas Day being a Monday. It's a major problem here and I am sure the same applies in the Antipodes, because it's the middle of the long summer holidays when the lemmings rush to the coast so choirs are always short of members.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

We have taken to having a choir holiday for all of January. The choir works very hard all year and are entitled to have holidays just like everyone else and Summer in Australia is when most people head for the beach. The members of the choir who are still around tend to sit together in the body of the church and lead the singing from there. I think the congregation is glad when we resume our proper choir role as we receive frequent appeals to do so.

Posted by AndyB (# 10186) on :

The solution is of course Advent IV in the morning, and Christmas Eve in the evening, being after sunset!

We're having our carol service at 6pm on the 24th, and being a Presbyterian church, no midnight service - just a morning service the next morning. I may or may not go to my local parish church for midnight communion - I don't like to miss it, but I may be too tired.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.

She gets an, IMHO, thoroughly deserved [Projectile]

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.
She gets an, IMHO, thoroughly deserved .

On her holly-and-ivy tassled shoes?

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by AndyB:
We're having our carol service at 6pm on the 24th, and being a Presbyterian church, no midnight service - just a morning service the next morning.

It may be a pond thing, but midnight (or 11:00/11:30) services are not at all uncommon in Presbyterian churches over here. We’ve had on for decades. Christmas Eve communion is also pretty much the norm in my experience. Our Christmas morning service (not nearly as common in Presbyterian churches over here) is also a Eucharist.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.

All the free churches along the main road here do.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Are you sure they're Communion services? I'm thinking of Christmas morning, not "midnight".

[ 18. November 2017, 19:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.
All the free churches along the main road here do.

As do ours with an extra Christmas Day Communion service at 8.30am.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The lady on one of my PCCs who always complained about there being a service of Holy Communion on Christmas Day in that parish, hearkening back to a time when the church was packed with families for a fun-filled All-Age non-communion service, lasting no more than half an hour, did so again this week.
She gets an, IMHO, thoroughly deserved .
On her holly-and-ivy tassled shoes?

How accurate are your projectile skills?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I cannot conceive of any Nonconformist church even thinking of holding Holy Communion on Christmas Day.

Well, it would rather put a damper on things, wouldn't it, starting the day with a memorial of the Master's last sad meal with his disciples [Biased]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Precisely - which is why I don't like finishing Easter Sunday morning worship with Communion, either.

By the way, we have decided ONLY to have an 8 pm service on Christmas Eve (plus 9.30 am on the Day).

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Precisely - which is why I don't like finishing Easter Sunday morning worship with Communion, either.

So much for the Emmaus story, I guess. Or the eschatological aspects of the Eucharist. Or “This is the joyful feast of the people of God.”

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Nick Tamen, I suspect irony on Albertus's part.

[ 20. November 2017, 01:24: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

You could be right ... though my comment still stands (Emmaus is for Easter Sunday evening by the way).

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Nick Tamen, I suspect irony on Albertus's part.

As do I. But I was responding to Baptist Trainfan’s post.

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You could be right ... though my comment still stands (Emmaus is for Easter Sunday evening by the way).

I come from a tradition that long had a penchant for “celebrating” the Sacrament with funereal solemnity. Much, much work has gone into moving away from that and transforming our practice and our understanding. Some might say that for my particular tribe, this shift in praxis, coupled with more frequent communion/an understanding of the centrality of the Eucharist has been the most important liturgical development of the last century. (One trend I have seen a number of times is to celebrate the Eucharist every Sunday in the Easter season as a way of letting the congregation dip its toes in a practice of weekly Communion.)

With that background, I can understand the perspective that Communion is “inappropriate” for Easter morning. But I think it is a very limited perspective.

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

FWIW (and I realise I'm furthering a tangent here), we started ending (if you see what I mean) our main Easter Sunday service with Communion a couple of years ago, instead of having it in a separate, early-ish service. And it works really, really well as a closing to the whole of our Easter weekend services. The way I've approached it is to see it yes as a memorial of the death of Christ, but one that is done in the presence of the living, resurrected Christ who now offers his life to us. We remember his death through the bread and wine; but we also meet with him at the table and receive from him the life he has won for us.

Or something like that.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Yes, I can see that ... but I've gone in precisely the opposite and value the quiet early Communion before the exuberant celebration at the "main" service later on (I realise that calling it that will give the more sacramentally-minded apoplexy, but it reflects reality in terms of the number f worshippers who attend).

Perhaps though we ought to get back to Christmas ...?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Nick Tamen, I suspect irony on Albertus's part.

You suspect right. But I know that there are some nonconformists- like BT, it transpires- who do see the Eucharist like that, and while I don't share that view, I respect it. So a mild and (intended to be anyway) friendly leg-pull.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Are you sure they're Communion services? I'm thinking of Christmas morning, not "midnight".

Yes - sure - morning

Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :

Being in a rented venue (school) that is closed on the basis of giving the caretakers the day off, we get to all visit the fleshpots of "away" and delight in not being on any rota!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So a mild and (intended to be anyway) friendly leg-pull.

Posted by Pia (# 17277) on :

Rota-wrangler in total denial here about Christmas Eve/Christmas Day.

I need a grand total of 24 'volunteer' servers between 8 a.m. on Christmas Eve and midday on Christmas Day. I'm currently considering kidnapping on a grand scale and only letting people out for their sprouts once they've served.

Posted by Fuzzipeg (# 10107) on :

I said in an earlier post that I wasn't sure what we would drop but expected little difference despite it being our long summer holiday when the lemmings head for the coast.

Here's the service list....

Sat 23rd 17,30 Holy Mass
Sunday 24th Advent 4 Mass at 7,00. 8,15. 10,00, 11,45.
First Mass of Christmas 17,30 (Special Mass for children plus Blessing of the Crib and bring presents for underprivileged children...stationary, school shoes, or a toy...not wrapped.)

23,30 Carol Singing with Mass at Midnight.

Christmas Day. Mass at 7,00. 8,15. 10,00. and 11,45 (No 17,30 Mass)

We only have one priest but no shortage of servers....and it's the holiday season.

[ 13. December 2017, 17:05: Message edited by: Fuzzipeg ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Your poor priest - 11 Masses in three days! I bet he doesn't preach 11 different homilies....

[Eek!]

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

quote:
Your poor priest - 11 Masses in three days! I bet he doesn't preach 11 different homilies....

Actually, eleven Masses in less than 48 hours!
But at least there is interesting variation within the eleven as we move from Advent to Christmas Eve, with the three sequential lectionary sets for Christmas itself, changes in the Prefaces and odd bells and whistles ...

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Yes, I was both aghast and also puzzled by that. From somewhere, I was under the impression that each individual Catholic priest is not allowed to offer the sacrifice of the Mass more than once in a day. So, even if the midnight service was treated as a special case, four masses one after the other on the Sunday and then Monday morning would require four priests.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Pastoral necessity can mean more than one Mass on Sundays and even on weekdays. Our pp says three Masses on Sunday and two on a Monday, partly to keep happy the two parishes which he serves.
There is also a long tradition of three Masses on Christmas day. This tradition has now dropped out somewhat,apart from the normal reason of pastoral necessity.
In the olden days Midnight Solemn Mass was followed by two Low Masses celebrated by the same priest.Then in the mornings there would be non stop Mass,well in the larger parishes, as each priest would celebrate one after the other the three Christmas Masses.

Posted by Fuzzipeg (# 10107) on :

It's really only 9 as a Portuguese speaking priest will do the two 8,15 Masses and he may ask one of the three deacons if they are not away to give the homily though I doubt it as it's Christmas....he may do for the Sunday. though there is seldom a deacon at the 11,45.
11,45 is an extra Mass that was brought in a few years ago as we couldn't cope with the numbers for the existing Masses as the church only seats about 750 and that's also full....at feasts like Christmas and Easter and also Ash Wednesday and Good Friday the service is shown on a big screen in the hall under the church....
The congregation is varied enough in skills to mean that the priest doesn't have to worry about finances, infrastructure, sick communions etc. There are deacons to handle weddings, baptisms and non practising Catholic funerals and the same applies to instruction generally. Obviously he is involved, though.....he doesn't shirk anything.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, it's a relief to know that the poor man doesn't have to do everything himself, though I'm sure that's true of most (if not all) large Catholic parishes.

Still, leading all those Masses in a meaningful and devout way is a big responsibility for anyone, so [Votive]

for him, the Portuguese priest, and the deacons.

IJ

Posted by Fuzzipeg (# 10107) on :

It must be difficult to maintain a degree of reverence...you think it's 5 Masses every weekend and obviously at least one every day. I take Holy Communion to the hospital and homes and I find it difficult.
I suppose we are lucky as we have about 5 000 at the Masses over a weekend and there are a number of other Catholic Churches in the area who also have good congregations.

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

In the Orthoworld, the only change when Christmas Eve is a Sunday is that Royal Hours get moved from the morning of Christmas Eve back to Friday morning.

Otherwise, the times and services follow the parish's normal customs for the feast (which vary a bit depending on whether you're Russian or Greek or whatever).

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve.

Newcastle Anglican Cathedral in NSW, Australia, has it tonight at 19.30. I'm visiting the ancestral home and plan to attend it as the service I will attend this Christmas.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, I was pleasantly surprised to have a full congregation in our Lady Chapel for this morning's service of Holy Communion from the Reserved Sacrament, with readings for Advent 4.

We topped and tailed the service with two of our favourite Marian hymns, to wit, Hail, O Star that pointest, and Tell out, my soul, the greatness of the Lord.

Happy Christmas Eve, when it arrives!

[Snigger]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Awful turnout this morning. What happened to 'the Lord's Day'/Sunday obligation?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

One word - Christmas!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Alas, yes - though it has to be said that a goodly number of our 'irregular regulars' (IYSWIM) were at this afternoon's Crib Service, and I know that at least some of them (minus kidz, but perhaps with Grans, Aunties etc.) will be back for Midnight Mass.

Yet others have said they will come to both Midnight Mass and tomorrow morning's service, having been amongst the Faithful Few at the 1030am service today, so Faith Is Not Yet Dead!

I see what leo means, but even for the really committed types, the rear-end collision between Advent 4 and Christmas Eve/Christmas Day this year has meant that it's not been feasible to be in church all day...
[Help]

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Saturday evening vigil mass was pretty full last night and I imagine lots will have taken advantage of that if available, especially if they are likely to go to midnight mass. Evening mass on Saturday and Sunday is what I am doing rather than two masses today.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
If I had the choice I would have Nine Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve.

In Belfast Cathedral, they do the 9 L&C twice - once on the afternoon of the Sunday before Christmas, and again at 8 p.m. on Christmas Eve, when it's practically standing-room only, and it's a big building - it seats well over a thousand.

I suspect most places are so taken up with children's services, pageants and whatnot on Christmas Eve that it's easier to have the carol service on the Sunday before.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Much bigger turnout at the midnight than usual.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, there yer go, as they say...

Our numbers were up at the Crib Service (we have many young families in our parish), and also (50% more than last year!)at Midnight Mass.

This morning's Mass was a bit sparse by comparison, but better than last year, and was enlivened by the presence of a number of Small Christians (children baptised during the past few months). Some pastoral visiting work has paid off, though there is much still to be done, following the departure of Father F**kwit ('O, I can't go and visit them wot lives in XXX Street - I want to keep the wheels on my car'!).

I'm sure the mild weather helped, too.....

Incidentally, our best-attended services over Christmas have been a short 'Nativity' service (mostly cheesy Christmas songs, but including suitable prayers, read by Me) for our pre-school Nursery (the Muslims present seemed quite happy to acknowledge the Christian festival), and the Christingle Service (yes, yes, I know - not everyone's favourite) for our Beavers, Cubs, and Scouts.

We hope to welcome a new priest-in-charge next year, so there will be a certain potential for him to build upon, I think.

IJ

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

We had a smallish turnout at Sunday morning service as I think many people had decided to go away on the Saturday seeing as they had a long weekend in the offing. However, the midnight service was much better attended as many of the 'only come once a year at Christmas' visitors were in attendance. Christmas services seem to be better attended when Christmas occurs mid week.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

Muslims shouldn't have any problem with celebrating the Nativity of Jesus, Bishop's Finger; it's in the Koran. So, by the way, is the story of Zechariah and Elizabeth. I think they also believe in the Virgin Birth, though I may well not have remembered that correctly.
They would, of course, have a problem with Jesus being called the Son of God.
Years ago I was at a school nativity concert where one of the infant classes was singing "Come and join the celebration". I wondered whether the Muslim kids would want to join in with the line
"Gaze in wonder
At the Son of God who lay before them"
but then heard the two Muslim boys in the front row cheerfully singing "At the Santa God who lay before them". [Eek!]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Christmas greetings to you all.

FWIW, on 24 December I went to a 4pm jazz Christingle service and then a midnight communion service at a different church, and both services were massively well attended. I was very impressed.

The Christmas morning service I went to in a different area was a much less crowded affair, as it was last year. The year before I went to a very different church on Christmas day and that was sparsely attended as well.

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