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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Crossing Oneself Before/After Receiving Communion, and Bowing While Kneeling
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I've noticed many Roman Catholics crossing themselves after receiving Communion, and many US Episcopalians crossing themselves beforehand.
Has anyone else noticed if these are trends regarding this in certain denominations, geographical areas, or levels of churchmanship?
Is there any reason other than custom for why people cross themselves when they do before/after receiving Communion?
I am never sure when to do it, if at all. My husband has told me it seems silly to bless oneself after receiving what is arguably the highest blessing of all. I do not know if I agree with that.
On a side note, I was taught in Roman Catholic RCIA (adult catechism) to bow before receiving the Eucharist while standing. I have often wondered whether or not one should bow before receiving the Eucharist when one is kneeling at an altar rail waiting for whomever is distributing Communion to come down to them. Is that redundant because one is already kneeling? Is it common practice for anyone to bow for any other reason while kneeling in any denomination, geographical area, or level of churchmanship?
I often bow while kneeling when the presiding celebrant genuflects after each of the Major Elevations after the Words of Institution in the Eucharistic Prayer - I know that people have all kinds of personal devotions - but is this done anywhere else and is it done as a rule by laypeople anywhere?
Also, what if you are kneeling during the procession of the consecrated elements to the Altar of Repose on Holy/Maundy Thursday - should you bow while kneeling when the Consecrated Elements pass you by?
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
I can only speak as a Lutheran. The traditions you mention in our denomination are considered adiaphora, meaning they are neither commanded nor forbidden. That said, you will find some Lutherans crossing themselves when receiving communion--I do. But I do not see it as much of self-blessing but reminding myself that I am baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If I am a communion assistant, when I leave the altar I will bow slightly to it out of reverence for what we have just done. You seldom see Lutheran ministers genuflecting, but again it is not commanded nor forbidden. Depends on how high the Lutheran congregation is liturgically.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
A Roman Catholic friend of mine recalled being told that crossing yourself on receipt of a blessing was an act of acceptance of the blessing that had been bestowed, and that not to cross yourself meant the blessing wouldn't "stick". I think the first part is about where I'm at, though I wouldn't agree with the second part.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I can only speak as a Lutheran. The traditions you mention in our denomination are considered adiaphora, meaning they are neither commanded nor forbidden. That said, you will find some Lutherans crossing themselves when receiving communion--I do. But I do not see it as much of self-blessing but reminding myself that I am baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If I am a communion assistant, when I leave the altar I will bow slightly to it out of reverence for what we have just done. You seldom see Lutheran ministers genuflecting, but again it is not commanded nor forbidden. Depends on how high the Lutheran congregation is liturgically.
But do you and the other Lutherans you know cross yourselves before or after receiving Communion? Have you or anyone else ever been told or said yourselves a reason why the sign of the cross is done before vs after receiving?
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
A Roman Catholic friend of mine recalled being told that crossing yourself on receipt of a blessing was an act of acceptance of the blessing that had been bestowed, and that not to cross yourself meant the blessing wouldn't "stick". I think the first part is about where I'm at, though I wouldn't agree with the second part.
I have thought that acceptance of a blessing was why RC's crossed themselves after receiving Communion. If this is the case, why do the Anglicans I observe crossing themselves at Communion always cross themselves before receiving? If it is a sign of acceptance, should it not be done after receiving? Or is it a sign of preparation instead?
This may seem like overthinking this but I am fascinated by the subtle differences I observe between the gestures of traditionally-inclined (I do not mean to say Traditionalist) Roman Catholics and Anglo-Catholics at Mass. There are some very interesting differences that I have seen in multiple US states and I wonder if anyone has ever looked into what might be behind them.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As far as the CofE is concerned, it is a pleasant practice but is very definitely adiaphora. It depends which church you are visiting whether it is quite widespread or almost unknown. If done, it is usually done before, not after. Since most people in the CofE have been taught to receive the bread with their palms crosswise anyway, there would be no basis for saying it is necessary.
Nor is it necessary to cross oneself for the sacrament to 'stick' whether as a sign of acceptance or for some other reason. I'd go as far as to advise Arethosemyfeet's friend that he or she had been wrongly advised. It is the act of receiving that does that and is sufficient.
In the modern CofE forms of service, you are encouraged to say 'Amen' as part of receiving.
There may be a few very, very Anglo-Catholic parishes where the clergy would like to place the bread directly on the tongue as in the RCC, but in the ordinary CofE whether high or low, you receive the bread in your hands.
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
I was taught that bowing your head when you were already kneeling is redundant, the act of submission was already performed with the act of kneeling.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I often bow while kneeling when the presiding celebrant genuflects after each of the Major Elevations after the Words of Institution in the Eucharistic Prayer - I know that people have all kinds of personal devotions - but is this done anywhere else and is it done as a rule by laypeople anywhere?
I have done this for most of my life. A number of FSSP seminarians that we’ve had at our parish do this, as they learned it at the seminary.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
]I have thought that acceptance of a blessing was why RC's crossed themselves after receiving Communion. If this is the case, why do the Anglicans I observe crossing themselves at Communion always cross themselves before receiving? If it is a sign of acceptance, should it not be done after receiving? Or is it a sign of preparation instead?
This may seem like overthinking this but I am fascinated by the subtle differences I observe between the gestures of traditionally-inclined (I do not mean to say Traditionalist) Roman Catholics and Anglo-Catholics at Mass. There are some very interesting differences that I have seen in multiple US states and I wonder if anyone has ever looked into what may be behind them.
FWIW, the practice of Episcopalians in these parts who cross themselves at communion, at least as I have observed it, is to cross themselves after receiving, often as they rise from the altar rail. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any cross themselves before communion. Note, my observation has not been in Anglo-Catholic parishes, which are few and far between around here. Maybe regional differences are at play as well?
Then there are those few and far between Presbyterians like me who cross themselves after communion (and at other times)—with the thumb on the forehead rather than with the entire hand on forehead, breast and shoulders.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I was taught that bowing your head when you were already kneeling is redundant, the act of submission was already performed with the act of kneeling.
Yup! Kind of the logic of body language rules, okay ... in any case, a bowed head can cause catastrophes when the Blood arrives and I so hate licking carpet
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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MaryLouise
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# 18697
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Posted
Doesn't all this fall under the Roman Catholic theology of sacramentals? These include a prayer, often accompanied by a specific outward and visible sign or gesture of blessing or veneration, such as the laying on of hands, the sign of the cross, or the sprinkling of holy water.
I remember noting that according to the catechism, sacramentals derive from the baptismal priesthood: every baptized person is called to be a 'blessing' and to bless.
Catholic sacramentals also serve to express local cultural forms of devotion and popular piety surrounding the Church's sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, making the stations of the cross, liturgical dance, saying the rosary aloud, wearing medals and scapulars, etc.
I wouldn't know about 'blessing' in other faith traditions and I'm not even sure how sacramentals are understood in many Catholic churches these days.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
For those who cross themselves right before receiving Communion, whether it is an example of adiaphora or not, why do they do it? Is there any reason they do it before rather than afterwards?
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
For those who cross themselves right before receiving Communion, whether it is an example of adiaphora or not, why do they do it? Is there any reason they do it before rather than afterwards?
'Cause that's the way I learned to do it, and after nearly 40 years, it's mostly automatic? (I would wager this is generally true across the denominational spectrum.)
Bowing, kneeling, or making the sign of the cross, to me, are a physical acknowledgment of something that I can only believe by faith. When I make the sign of the cross before receiving communion, I am acknowledging that this is not just bread and wine. I suppose you might read it as redundant, given that I already made the sign of the cross at the elevations. But that's sort of what I always understood was going on here.
There is a story (perhaps legend) in this Diocese about a church which had an odd tradition where everyone in the procession had to bow at a certain spot in the aisle, several pews before they reverenced the altar. For years, this was part of the instruction for anyone in the procession. Finally, someone asked "why"? It took some looking, but eventually they determined that there had been a low-hanging light fixture there at one point, and the person carrying the processional cross had to bow a bit to get under it with the cross. People started copying, and before they knew it, it had become an unquestioned pious observance.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I often bow while kneeling when the presiding celebrant genuflects after each of the Major Elevations after the Words of Institution in the Eucharistic Prayer - I know that people have all kinds of personal devotions - but is this done anywhere else and is it done as a rule by laypeople anywhere?
I have done this for most of my life. A number of FSSP seminarians that we’ve had at our parish do this, as they learned it at the seminary.
Crossing DURING each elevation, whilst saying, 'My Lord and my God!' used to get one hundreds of years off Purgatory. I still do it.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Nor is it necessary to cross oneself for the sacrament to 'stick' whether as a sign of acceptance or for some other reason. I'd go as far as to advise Arethosemyfeet's friend that he or she had been wrongly advised. It is the act of receiving that does that and is sufficient.
In fairness my friend was talking about blessings rather than the sacrament, but given that hers is very much "folk" Catholicism - she's faithful but sits quite lightly by official doctrines and rules as opposed to what she learned as a child.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
It is common for English speaking Catholics to make the sign of the cross after receiving Communion. It is not common to do so in other countries. If you see someone doing so on the European continent you can usually say that is a person from the British Isles (including Ireland geographically).
Like many other customs I have never asked myself why, but rather just accepted that it is something which one normally does.
Many Catholics will automatically bless themselves by making the sign of the Cross if a priest makes the sign of the Cross over them. In a way it is an indication of receiving the blessing. It will often be done, again automatically, after receiving ashes on Ash Wednesday or the blessing of St Blaise on 3rd February or after venerating a sacred relic.
Often there is no ritual reason to do so, apart from the 'understanding' that it is a sacred action, which acknowledges that a blessing of some sort has been offered and received.
It is not usual for Roman Catholics to make the sign of the Cross at the elevation of the Host and Chalice, although it is customary to bow one's head, even when kneeling and to say sotto voce 'My Lord and my God'. In the olden days almost
any pious actions would be rewarded with an Indulgence and I suppose that 100 days partial indulgence might just mean 100 years reduction of Purgatory, but please remember that in order to gain any Indulgence, one absolutely has to make within eight days a full sacramental confession of sins, one has to receive Communion AND one has to pray for the intentions of the Sovereign Pontiff.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
But do you and the other Lutherans you know cross yourselves before or after receiving Communion? Have you or anyone else ever been told or said yourselves a reason why the sign of the cross is done before vs after receiving?
I thought I answered this. Let me be clear, I cross myself both before and after communion. I do it to remind myself of my baptism.
I would say about 1/3 of our congregation crosses themselves. I do not know specifically why the other 30 do since I have never really asked.
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
In my experience, Catholic practice in these areas is far from uniform, and vary not only from congregation to congregation but in time. Thus the practices of my small childhood parish in the suburbs are not the practices of the city church I attend monthly during the week.
My childhood church was predominantly Irish Catholic with a smattering of people from other cultures, whereas the city church is predominantly first-generation migrants from a range of backgrounds with a substantial minority of devout elderly.
My feeling therefore is that at least in the Archdiocese of Melbourne, such practices are adiaphora, or in other words, meh. It should be noted that I grew up in the free and easy environment post-Vatican II, when people were trying to get used to a liturgy in the vernacular.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
In the modern CofE forms of service, you are encouraged to say 'Amen' as part of receiving..
This is mandatory in Common Worship
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Which is weird because the devotion of the 'Amen' at that point comes from it being voluntary.
Jengie
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Well nobody is going to refuse communion to those who don't say Amen. But it is part of the liturgy.
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
so what if you said to the Priest going for early delivery: "Wait for it..."
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
Back in the post-Vatican II days, an old friend of mine, lapsed RC, visiting a devout family in Spain, went to Mass with them and didn't know to say 'Amen' when receiving. Recognizing that this was clearly not a Spaniard, the priest said to him, in Latin: Dic: Amen – and was not going to give him the Host until he did.
But (much) more recently, = this year, I have been in a very international and ecumenical congregation where some said 'Amen' and other didn't, and that was up to them, along with any body language such a crossing oneself / waving hands in the air / genuflecting / even, to some extent, standing vs sitting vs kneeling.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
When I serve in the subdeacon role, I administer the chalice to half the communicants. For a long time in our parish, this was done with the words, "The Blood of Christ." Not what the BCP says. But I feel obliged to mirror whatever the celebrant says while giving the Host, so recently I've been saying "The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation." At least one longtime parishioner apparently tries to pre-empt the second half of that, firmly saying "AMEN!" after "The Blood of Christ."
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
I'm Lutheran, my spouse Catholic. We usually worship at a Dominican convent. When going to communion, we bow before receiving, say "Amen" after the words of administration, and cross ourselves after having received both the bread and wine. When going to communion in a Lutheran church, it's the same, without the bows. (Yes, we're breaking the rules about reception in the Catholic Church, which we both faithfully observed for some thirty years, then decided to ignore). Really wouldn't know what to do if we were in a parish where the sacrament was received kneeling.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
At least one longtime parishioner apparently tries to pre-empt the second half of that, firmly saying "AMEN!" after "The Blood of Christ."
I have the opposite problem - our scared monsters are masters of the early delivery. They like to announce "The Blood of Christ" whilst tipping the chalice against my lips. So I don't get my Amen in until after I've taken a sip.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
When I serve in the subdeacon role, I administer the chalice to half the communicants. For a long time in our parish, this was done with the words, "The Blood of Christ." Not what the BCP says. But I feel obliged to mirror whatever the celebrant says while giving the Host, so recently I've been saying "The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation." At least one longtime parishioner apparently tries to pre-empt the second half of that, firmly saying "AMEN!" after "The Blood of Christ."
Good for them, since it's unauthorised and mistaken, by one child, as 'cup of dalmations'.
One of our curates says no words at all on giving the host so I don't respond either - feels very odd.
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
In the Orthoworld, when you're standing in line to receive Communion, you cross your arms (left hand on right shoulder, right hand on left shoulder) and you keep them crossed until you've left the Chalice. You do that rather than making the usual sign of the cross to make it less likely that you will do something that will result in a spill.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Which is weird because the devotion of the 'Amen' at that point comes from it being voluntary.
Jengie
I think the voluntariness is that of being at the rite in the first place
In APBA 2nd Order (the one most commonly used here) the words of administration are "The Body of Christ, the bread of Heaven" and "The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation" and the response to each is "Amen". Maybe there are some who although using that order would choose either to shorten the words or use completely different ones, but neither is a practice we've observed. I'm not sure why anyone would wish to shorten the full phrase as Oblatus reports.
[ 24. December 2017, 01:41: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It is not usual for Roman Catholics to make the sign of the Cross at the elevation of the Host and Chalice, although it is customary to bow one's head, even when kneeling and to say sotto voce 'My Lord and my God'.
At Brompton Oratory in London, the booklet in the pews to help follow the Novus Ordo Latin Mass instructed congregants to say, "My Lord and my God" at the elevation of the host and "Lord, remember the creature which Thou hast redeemed by Thy Most Precious Blood" (or something like that) at the elevation of the chalice. Have you or anyone else heard of this practice?
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
In the Orthoworld, when you're standing in line to receive Communion, you cross your arms (left hand on right shoulder, right hand on left shoulder) and you keep them crossed until you've left the Chalice. You do that rather than making the usual sign of the cross to make it less likely that you will do something that will result in a spill.
That's something to file away for later - crossing one's arms in that fashion is how I would approach for a blessing at RC Mass if I've not been invited to receive.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It is not usual for Roman Catholics to make the sign of the Cross at the elevation of the Host and Chalice, although it is customary to bow one's head, even when kneeling and to say sotto voce 'My Lord and my God'.
At Brompton Oratory in London, the booklet in the pews to help follow the Novus Ordo Latin Mass instructed congregants to say, "My Lord and my God" at the elevation of the host and "Lord, remember the creature which Thou hast redeemed by Thy Most Precious Blood" (or something like that) at the elevation of the chalice. Have you or anyone else heard of this practice?
I've encountered, and practice, the first but not the second.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It is not usual for Roman Catholics to make the sign of the Cross at the elevation of the Host and Chalice, although it is customary to bow one's head, even when kneeling and to say sotto voce 'My Lord and my God'.
At Brompton Oratory in London, the booklet in the pews to help follow the Novus Ordo Latin Mass instructed congregants to say, "My Lord and my God" at the elevation of the host and "Lord, remember the creature which Thou hast redeemed by Thy Most Precious Blood" (or something like that) at the elevation of the chalice. Have you or anyone else heard of this practice?
I've encountered, and practice, the first but not the second.
I meant to ask specifically about the second - saying "Lord, remember the creature which Thou hast redeemed by Thy Most Precious Blood" at the elevation of the chalice. Has anyone ever heard of this?
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