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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Choral evensong and making the sign of the cross
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Cactus Pete
Apprentice
# 18885
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Posted
I thought about adding on to the prior thread about crossing oneself and communion. But my question seems different enough that I think it needs a separate thread.
We traveled to the UK recently and during our two weeks there, we attended choral evensong in London at five different venues (St Paul's, Westminster Abbey, St Bride's Church, Southwark Cathedral, and Great St Bartholomew's). I don't have a CofE background so I have a question: At what points in a service (whether Eucharist or choral evensong) does one make the sign of the cross? What are the cues to look/listen for? I ask this because we will be in the UK again in 2018 and I would like to do things properly.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
If it's BCP, and "properly" means "as the authors intended" then the answer is probably "never". More relevantly, it's a matter of local and personal custom. In the parish where I grew up making the sign of the cross was an accepted quirk of a small minority. Myself, having adopted the custom as an adult, I would likely make the sign of the cross at the words "in the name of the Father...", at the absolution, after receiving communion, and at the benediction, and really at any other point in between where it felt appropriate.
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
At choral evensong, on the lips at "O Lord, open thou my lips", and then as usual at "O God, make speed to save us", the opening words of the Gospel canticle(s), the end of the Apostles' Creed, the Grace, and at a blessing if one is given as well.
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
I think it's probably fair to say that practice within the CofE will vary hugely from not at all to some/all/other of the places suggested by other posters. So I'd got for whenever feels appropriate to you.
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
Yes, kingsfold is right, and I was giving you the full set, as it were. In practice you may get that, a subset of that, or none of that, depending where you go. Best bet is to keep your eyes peeled, and fit in with what’s going on around you.
[ 22. December 2017, 06:36: Message edited by: David Goode ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Cactus Pete, it's entirely up to you. The drill sergeant approach to worship really isn't our tradition. As long as you stand up, sit down and kneel when everybody else does, nobody is going to be staring you to check that you do it 'properly'. Besides anyone who does do that has foibles and scruples of their own, which are their problem, not yours.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I've seen and read a practice of a three-fold crossing with the thumb at the opening versicles (one cross for each - lips, head, then heart). Apostles Creed and the blessing at the end always seem to make sense to me and personally I've always crossed myself for the Gospel Canticles.
Edited to add:
This may be a peculiarly local thing, but the crossing at the Mag usually comes at the words '..and holy is His Name...'
[ 22. December 2017, 08:55: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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Staretz Silouan
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I've seen and read a practice of a three-fold crossing with the thumb at the opening versicles (one cross for each - lips, head, then heart).
I think you'd be more likely to see that, if you see it at all, at the announcement of the Gospel at the Eucharist rather than at the beginning of the Office in the Church of England.
quote:
This may be a peculiarly local thing, but the crossing at the Mag usually comes at the words '..and holy is His Name...'
I think that must be a local custom; usual practice among those who show outward reverence here is to bow at that line. And, indeed, wherever that, or similar occurs.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
At choral evensong, on the lips at "O Lord, open thou my lips",
Isn't that Morning Prayer? (Sorry if my memory is wrong—no BCP handy at the moment.)
quote:
and then as usual at "O God, make speed to save us", the opening words of the Gospel canticle(s), the end of the Apostles' Creed . . . .
I was taught by some American Episcopalians that the sign of the cross during the Apostle’s Creed is made at the words “the resurrection of the body” rather than at the end per se. Maybe a local quirk?
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
Nick, that should have been only at the start of Morning Prayer as those words at Matins would have been the first spoken of the day, to break the Greater Silence begun after Compline the evening before. But Cranmer decided to start both Morning and Evening Prayer with them.
And, yes, I meant the sign of the cross at the end, not after the end, and I’m sure it’s there either for that phrase, or the ultimate phrase.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
At choral evensong, on the lips at "O Lord, open thou my lips",
Isn't that Morning Prayer? (Sorry if my memory is wrong—no BCP handy at the moment.) ...
In the 'real' BCP, the 1662 one, it comes in both Morning and Evening Prayer. It's also collective, 'our lips' not 'my lips'.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
By this time, this topic has been largely covered already. However, at both Morning & Evening Prayer, where the sign of the Cross is used, it is suggested that one does so (if one so chooses!) at the Gospel Canticles - i.e. Benedictus at MP and Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis at EP.
With the Magnificat taken from Vespers and Nunc Dimmitis takem from Compline, I notice that not everybody (who does so) crosses themselves at both these two canticles, but only at the Magnificat, leaving out the crossing at the Nunc Dimmittis. I don't experience the public recitation of Morning Prayer very often, but when I do, I see the crossing may well be done at the Benedictus.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
It was indeed the custom at Our Place, when we had daily Morning Prayer, for those present to cross themselves at the beginning of Benedictus.
At our local Cathedral Evensong, quite a few do likewise at the beginning of Magnificat.
IJ
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
... it is suggested that one does so (if one so chooses!) at the Gospel Canticles - i.e. Benedictus at MP and Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis at EP. ...
By whom? I've been attending Morning and Evening Prayer off and on for over 60 years. Nobody has ever suggested in my hearing that there was a right and wrong way, time or place for doing so.
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John3000
Apprentice
# 18786
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Posted
In every place in England I've been for choral evensong I would say those crossing themselves at any point have always been in the minority.
I've certainly never crossed myself and am not about to start, and I've never felt I haven't been doing things properly.
[ 23. December 2017, 11:00: Message edited by: John3000 ]
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
... it is suggested that one does so (if one so chooses!) at the Gospel Canticles - i.e. Benedictus at MP and Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis at EP. ...
By whom? I've been attending Morning and Evening Prayer off and on for over 60 years. Nobody has ever suggested in my hearing that there was a right and wrong way, time or place for doing so.
"The suggestion" is by the wider Church and not by any local Church community. It is one of those things which are common knowledge, but off the top of my head, I cannot say from what book of words. Who said anything about a right and wrong way!!?? I didn't!! What is right for one person, is not necessarily right for another.
John 3000, being in the minority might well be the case, at least where you are and if you are saying that you are not going to start now, that is your choice. Crossing one's self at the gospel canticles, or at other times, is a pious custom, which not everybody adhere's to.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
At choral evensong, on the lips at "O Lord, open thou my lips", and then as usual at "O God, make speed to save us", the opening words of the Gospel canticle(s), the end of the Apostles' Creed, the Grace, and at a blessing if one is given as well.
Agree - except the Creed - we no longer make the sign of the cross at the end of the Nicene Creed wither.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Crossing one's self at the gospel canticles, or at other times, is a pious custom, which not everybody adheres to.
Coming from a charismatic-evangelical background (and atheist before that) it was a custom I grew into cautiously and slowly about 30-25 years ago. It has never left me; it is a godly gift particularly when my thoughts are cluttered with what John Bell (with beautiful bathos) calls "wrong things," and my body still connects with the risen christ and his mysteries. It is a godly gift too on the occasions, and they still happen, when my soul so fills with adoration that my words, even liturgical words, are mere flim flam. The action - especially as I am in a tiny minority (about 1% of Anglicans) in this country - has never become automatic.
But I doubt I follow any rule book!
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
Crossing oneself is an entirely optional gesture of pious reverence carried over from the Roman Catholic version of the faith. The CofE is 'Catholic & Reformed' so such practices are considered 'acceptable' but never 'obligatory'.
In fact I think it would be true to say that 'crossing oneself', 'kissing crosses', 'bowing', 'genuflecting', 'Women wearing veils and head coverings in church', 'facing particular directions at particular times in the service' etc. are ALL OPTIONAL and should remain so.
Visitors need never worry about 'getting it right'. We Anglicans are 'Reformed' and believe that Christ died because WE ARE ALL terminally incapable of 'Getting it Right'. That was why we need a Savior.
So Relax, enjoy the timeless liturgy of Evensong and trustingly immerse yourself in Cranmers wonderful English prose, (If the service is good old BCP).
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
Crossing oneself is an entirely optional gesture of pious reverence carried over from the Roman Catholic version of the faith. The CofE is 'Catholic & Reformed' so such practices are considered 'acceptable' but never 'obligatory'.
In fact I think it would be true to say that 'crossing oneself', 'kissing crosses', 'bowing', 'genuflecting', 'Women wearing veils and head coverings in church', 'facing particular directions at particular times in the service' etc. are ALL OPTIONAL and should remain so.
Visitors need never worry about 'getting it right'. We Anglicans are 'Reformed' and believe that Christ died because WE ARE ALL terminally incapable of 'Getting it Right'. That was why we need a Savior.
So Relax, enjoy the timeless liturgy of Evensong and trustingly immerse yourself in Cranmers wonderful English prose, (If the service is good old BCP).
Not quite. 'Crossing oneself', 'kissing crosses', 'bowing', 'genuflecting' and 'Women wearing veils' were, with one exception, unknown anywhere until introduced in advanced Anglo-Catholic circles in the late C19.
The one exception is that I don't know whether making a small bow of the head at the mention of Jesus in the creeds goes back through time or was a nineteenth century innovation. There is some reason to think it goes back further.
The practice of going down on one knee at the mention of the Incarnation in the creed is definitely an Anglo-Catholic innovation.
Women wearing hats, which comes from St Paul, was universal until at the least 1914, and more or less universal until the 1950s.
Confessing, praying and receiving the sacrament kneeling were all more or less universal until within the last 20-25 years, and as good as mandated by the 1662 BCP.
Standing for the creed and the gospel are mandated by 1662. The clergy and choir turning to the east for the creed is not mandated, but the congregation would normally be facing that way anyway. I don't know how far that goes back.
However, I agree, nobody should worry about getting it right. People do their own thing these days, and habits vary enormously from one parish to another.
And if anybody tells you 'this is what you should do', or 'this is what the wider church does', what they usually mean is 'this is what I do' or 'this is what everybody just knew they were supposed to do at the church I went to thirty years ago'.
The really bad temptation to which so many of us are easy prey, is the pride involved in thinking that I know how to do properly, not like that grubby publican person over there.
[ 23. December 2017, 22:13: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Of course all these pious gestures and so on are entirely voluntary. But so is coming to church in the first place (except for vicars who are paid to do so).
If someone chooses to cross themself at an unusual place, or stand/sit/kneel while others are kneeling/standing/sitting, then God isn't going to get his/her anthropomorphic knickers in a twist. Nor should anyone else.
But customs evolve of there being appropriate moments to do these things. And they are the customs of a community. One of the paradoxes of church is that we welcome (or should) every kind of person each with their foibles and peculiar habits, and at the same time we are a community which worships, prays and acts together.
So on a website like this a fascination with ritual niceties is fine; in church, if it develops into over-scrupulousness or judgementalism, it can be of the devil. But if you go with the flow you will eventually be caught up into the community's way of doing things and hence be set free to worship God without anxiety.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
If someone chooses to cross themself at an unusual place ...
The mind boggles ... ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
Crossing oneself is an entirely optional gesture of pious reverence carried over from the Roman Catholic version of the faith. *snip*
So Relax, enjoy the timeless liturgy of Evensong and trustingly immerse yourself in Cranmers wonderful English prose, (If the service is good old BCP).
Those of us who have been in Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches are left pale by amount of crossing (also prostrations, although they seem to be quite rare in Canada outside ROCOR parishes). It seems to be a very ancient phenomenon, although it perhaps came to Anglican circles via observations of RC practice.
Almost all of the crossings I've ever seen at Evensong happen at the end of the Apostles' Creed or at the 2 Cor 13.14 prayer at the end, although I've seen a few folk cross themselves at the beginning of the Magnificat (I see from my 1962 ACoC servers' manual that one crosses oneself at the My soul doth + magnify the Lord). In about half a century of attending Evening Prayer, I have only once seen a prostration at Evensong and I think it safe to say that it is not frequent in Anglican circles in Canada.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:The practice of going down on one knee at the mention of the Incarnation in the creed is definitely an Anglo-Catholic innovation.
WAS - we stopped after Vatican 2 except for tonight and on Lady Day. [/QB]
YKMV- it's still done at S Thomas in Toronto IIRC, as well as at S Barnabas in Ottawa.
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Cactus Pete
Apprentice
# 18885
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Posted
Many, many thanks to you all for your replies. I can appreciate that the practice varies by location and by person. I was indeed looking for "the full set" as Mr Goode presented and I'll take my practice from what feels appropriate out of that.
I appreciated Zappa's words because they remind me of my own situation. I was raised in the Southern Baptist church and am now in the Reformed Church in America, and very happily so. But as Zappa said, I feel the practice offers an additional means of worship and so I am wanting to adopt it in the right way.
Choral evensong resonates deeply with me. (Why else would I attend five services in two weeks of an already busy holiday visit?) At least once per week I listen via web to a choral evensong service from the the available college services or the BBC. These keep me going until I can next visit the UK.
Again, my deep thanks to you all for your assistance!
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