Ship of Fools: Anglo-Catholic midweek Eucharistic services in Richmond, London

Thread: Anglo-Catholic midweek Eucharistic services in Richmond, London Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

I am off to the National Archives at Kew after Christmas before my college term begins again - any recommendations for churches with midweek Eucharistic services nearby?

Preferences
*Sung service
*BCP or CW (current church uses the RC missal and I miss standard CoE liturgy)
*LGBT friendly and preferably pro-OoW (not a dealbreaker, current church is not)
*Doesn't race through the liturgy as if it's on a timer

Ad orientem celebration is nice but by no means essential, rosary recitation or Eucharistic adoration before or afterwards would be a very nice bonus.

Thanks, and a merry Christmas to all.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I expect someone who knows the area will be along to help in due course, but I doubt very much if you'll find a mid-week sung service much before Ash Wednesday!

(Re the Roman liturgy, I, too, miss the 'proper' C of E service - Our Place uses a horrible mish-mash, bequeathed to us by our late Father F**kwit. Why, O why, can't we just do what it says in the book - Common Worship Order One - and borrow the few extra little bits we need from the Romans?)

IJ

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

St. John's Richmond is worth considering. It is situated close to Richmond Railway Station.

I have been there on my travels and I know some-one who used to go there. It has a reputation for being fairly anglo-catholic, but I do not know what the priviliges are.

There is also St. Mary Magdalene's Church not far from there, where I have been for bellringing (8 bells) but I do not know what the churchmanship is.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I have now looked this up on the website and the Churches to which I refer are united within the Richmond Team Ministry. There is a third Church, namely St. Matthias'.

Apparently, there are mid-week Eucharists within the Team Ministry on Tuesdays. Wednesday's & Thursdays. At St. John the Divine, there is a Tuesday evening Eucharist at 7.00, preceded by Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament at 6.30.

On Sundays, there is an 11.00 Sung Mass at St. John's.

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

You might consider St Anne's on Kew Green which is very close to the Public Records Office. They claim to stand "in the inclusive High Church tradition with an emphasis on well-ordered choral liturgy." They seem to have mid-week eucharists, including some at 12.30. However, I doubt if any are sung. Getting suitable musicians during normal working hours would be very hard. It is a lovely building.

You can get from Kew Gardens underground station to Turnham Green station, and close to that is St Michael and All Angels. They seem to have Mass at 6pm on Mondays and Fridays.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I was a bit vague about St. Anne's at Kew and failed to mention that. Thanks for clarification.

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
You might consider St Anne's on Kew Green which is very close to the Public Records Office. They claim to stand "in the inclusive High Church tradition with an emphasis on well-ordered choral liturgy." They seem to have mid-week eucharists, including some at 12.30. However, I doubt if any are sung. Getting suitable musicians during normal working hours would be very hard. It is a lovely building.

St Anne's Kew Green is the only church I know with really properly competent congregational psalm chanting (on a Sunday, admittedly). Excellent people.

PS Pomona: I have to commend you on the most gloriously specific thread title I have seen in quite a while. You're probably well aware of this but when I was researching at the National Archives it was absolutely ruddy freezing in the reading rooms so I would recommend a HUGE jumper.

[ 30. December 2017, 16:54: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
It has a reputation for being fairly anglo-catholic, but I do not know what the priviliges are.

What does privileges mean in this context?

Thanks.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
It has a reputation for being fairly anglo-catholic, but I do not know what the priviliges are.
What does privileges mean in this context?

Thanks.

From our church guide book:

"All of the ‘privileges’ were present: priestly vestments; bells at the elevation of the host; incense; six candles on the high altar; unleavened bread for communion; the ‘eastward facing’ position of the priest at the altar; the sign of the cross and the mixing of water with the sacramental wine. These were the principles that ‘ritualist’ priests had been gaoled for in the previous generation as the Church of England recovered its Catholic heritage and identity."

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

Thank you very much Corvo.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

St Anne Kew Green sounds much like St Sanity, an initial thought confirmed by reading the order of the Sunday Eucharist in the Parish Bulletin. The difference is that we use APBA, and the service there looks like my memory of Common Worship. Just slight differences in language here and there. We'd be as happy there as at St Sanity or St Paul's Manuka.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
From our church guide book:

"All of the ‘privileges’ were present: priestly vestments; bells at the elevation of the host; incense; six candles on the high altar; unleavened bread for communion; the ‘eastward facing’ position of the priest at the altar; the sign of the cross and the mixing of water with the sacramental wine. These were the principles that ‘ritualist’ priests had been gaoled for in the previous generation as the Church of England recovered its Catholic heritage and identity."

Well, I've learnt something. I'm in my late 60s and I've never heard 'privileges' used that way, or that particular collection of late C19 Anglo-Catholic shibboleths described as such before.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Even more 'advanced' A-C parishes might also have included Confession (heard at advertised times, in the church), and the service of Benediction, as additional 'privileges'.

IJ

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

The four 'essentials' were identified in the 'Church Travellers Directory' with the linitials "DSCR"

Daily mass
Sung Sunday celebration
Confessions at set times
Reservation of the Blessed Sacramant

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

But why 'privileges'? It's a curious term to use. It's very unlikely that the Ordinary would have given that parish a specific permission in writing to provide these ritualistic delights for the fastidious worshipper, rather than that the incumbent thought he could get away with it.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I'd forgotten 'Daily Mass' and 'Reservation of the Blessed Sacrament'.

Yes, 'privileges' is an odd word to use, but, presumably, it's meant to remind the Faithful how Jolly Lucky they are to have all these good things, denied to the Low Church parish next door!

Most of these practices would have been illegal at one time, but have been hallowed by time and usage (not to mention the fact that the church as a whole has better things to do than to put people in prison for wearing a chasuble, etc....).

IJ

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
From our church guide book:

"All of the ‘privileges’ were present: priestly vestments; bells at the elevation of the host; incense; six candles on the high altar; unleavened bread for communion; the ‘eastward facing’ position of the priest at the altar; the sign of the cross and the mixing of water with the sacramental wine. These were the principles that ‘ritualist’ priests had been gaoled for in the previous generation as the Church of England recovered its Catholic heritage and identity."

Interesting how times change. Most of these 'privileges/principles' are accepted without a murmur across the whole of the C ofE: most cathedrals take for granted all except 'bells at the elevation' (still a bit unusual). The number of candles on the altar is not seen as significant; the 'eastward position' was pretty much universal until 50 or so years ago when both evangelicals and anglo-catholics (along with Rome) converged on 'versus populum' celebration.

However, the four essentials that Corvo referred to in a subsequent post - Daily mass, Sung eucharist every Sunday, advertised confession, and reservation of the sacrament, are if anything less common than they were. Not that any of them provoke arch-protestant ire in the way that they did in the past. But churches with a daily eucharist are much rarer than they used to be (in some dioceses I'd guess the cathedral is one of the few churches where it would be guaranteed). At one time the Parish Communion movement appeared to be well on the way to achieving its goal of 'the Lord's service on the Lord's day' in every church of whatever tradition: now the shortage of clergy combined with a growing non-sacramental evangelicalism seems to have turned the clock back. Sacramental confession doesn't seem to have made headway for similar reasons. While 'extended communion' (and hence the principle of reservation) is generally accepted across traditions, the practice of continuous reservation of the sacrament seems to me at least to be in decline.

It's interesting (and maybe it should be worrying) that superficially, in terms of ritual, vesture etc, the C of E looks much more 'catholic' than it did only a few decades ago, whereas in terms of the real priorities of the anglo-catholic movement the fears of an 'evangelical takeover' seem justified.

Just to add, I am not anti-evangelical but I strongly believe that the C of E should be both catholic and evangelical, not to be a sort of umbrella organisation tolerating two sorts of church within it. True catholicism means being evangelical, and vice versa.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I'd forgotten 'Daily Mass' and 'Reservation of the Blessed Sacrament'.

Yes, 'privileges' is an odd word to use, but, presumably, it's meant to remind the Faithful how Jolly Lucky they are to have all these good things, denied to the Low Church parish next door!IJ

Yes, it's a privilege to have daily mass only 100 yeards from my front door and to be able to pray in front of the tabernacle.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

We used to have a daily Mass (until 2006), though registers show that attendance was sometimes just the priest (in which case, he communicated himself from the Reserved Sacrament).

Our nearest A-C neighbour still has a daily Mass, though, again, only 1 or 2 people sometimes attend (and they may well be from outside the parish, anyway).

As Angloid says, shortage of clergy also means that some churches nowadays have to restrict themselves to one or two weekday Masses (hopefully well-attended!).

OTOH, Reservation has been re-introduced at another neighbouring (MOTR) parish, along with the use of incense on High Days.

IJ

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Re Reservation, one hears of country churches, in particular, still open, but with empty, unused aumbries.

I guess this results from the amalgamation of several small parishes, the infrequency of services, and the fact that one or two clergy have to serve a large number of churches anyway.

It makes sense, therefore, for Reservation to be confined to the main church, or even (for convenience if visiting the sick) the Vicarage or Rectory.

IJ

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
or even (for convenience if visiting the sick) the Vicarage or Rectory.

IJ

Would I though need to genuflect as I passed it (when I lived in one)?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
or even (for convenience if visiting the sick) the Vicarage or Rectory.

IJ
Would I though need to genuflect as I passed it (when I lived in one)?

Shouldn't that be expected just as much of casual passers-by in the road outside? [Two face]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Indeed it should, and the said Rector or Vicar should also employ a robed server, with candle and bell, to precede him whilst walking the street (en route to the Sick) with the MBS, so that the Faithful might be warned of Its approach, and make the appropriate obeisance....

I will now put my copy of Ritual Notes back where it belongs.

IJ

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I know for certain that there is reservation at St. John's Richmond. I have alluded to that in mentioning Exposition.

With a team Rector and more than one team Vicar, there are as many residences as that for all the clergy.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
We used to have a daily Mass (until 2006), though registers show that attendance was sometimes just the priest (in which case, he communicated himself from the Reserved Sacrament).IJ

In which case it wasn't a mass.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
It has a reputation for being fairly anglo-catholic, but I do not know what the priviliges are.
What does privileges mean in this context?

Thanks.

Sorry, I overlooked this take-up of my mention of privileges.

In my youth, catholic privileges was a constantly used phrase. DSCR has already been mentioned and others have already elaborated since I posted.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Re the priest at Our Place receiving Communion from the Reserved Sacrament, being the only person present, leo said:

quote:
In which case it wasn't a mass.

Quite right, of course, though the schedule of services proved that the intention was for a Mass to be said.

Alas, the congregation voted with their feet - even the Sunday Mass sometimes struggled to reach double figures... [Disappointed]

Posted by ST (# 14600) on :

An edition of The Church Travellers Directory can be found at Church Travellers Directory

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Thanks for that, ST!

Shipmates are advised, however, that the reproduction of the pages of the Directory is rather faint, and not very legible. Sufficient, though, to show that a couple of Our Place's neighbours were a bit higher up the candle in those days.

The obvious caveatis, of course, that Father B-G's information is now somewhat out-of-date.

IJ

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