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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: ++Rowan on the Da Vinci Code
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Awesome sermon. Spot on. Deserves a very wide circulation, not just about TDVC.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Thank you for posting the link Mark; that was an inspiring sermon! I particulalry appreciated this part: quote:
For the Church does not exist just to transmit a message across the centuries through a duly constituted hierarchy that arbitrarily lays down what people must believe; it exists so that people in this and every century may encounter Jesus of Nazareth as a living contemporary. This sacrament of Holy Communion that we gather to perform here is not the memorial of a dead leader, conducted by one of his duly authorised successors who controls access to his legacy; it is an event where we are invited to meet the living Jesus as surely as did his disciples on the first Easter Day. And the Bible is not the authorised code of a society managed by priests and preachers for their private purposes, but the set of human words through which the call of God is still uniquely immediate to human beings today, human words with divine energy behind them.
I think that sums up what I believe about Church, Eucharist and Bible far better than I could have expressed it.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Yes,I agree Wanderer.....it certainly deserves a wide circulation as do in fact quite a few of the posts on this board
I think the senior clergy are in a difficult position - the reason is that in order to refute TDVC you have to go into a fair bit of historical reasoning eg the formation of the Canon,what Louise eg has posted on Rosslyn, the milieu of the 1st and 2nd century,the Chalcedon - the existence of Gnosticism and so on.Difficult to do in a sermon ! without at the same time sounding like they're pronouncing anathemas
Someone mentioned Bart Ehrman ( yes I know I did but somebody else did as well).Gnosticism isn't new - I knew of it when I was doing 'A' level scripture 35+ years ago.
However the effort has to be made - and I would say that Ehrman is certainly worth a read.Perhaps I should read more of him - just been browsing on Amazon!
I am reminded of the conspiracy theories in scientific matters - same problem in order to refute them you have to go in a fair bit of technical detail
The other thing is......it seems OK to treat the NT documents critically,indeed they have had a good going over since the 19th.century yet - in popular imagination (IMO) critical analysis doesn't seem to apply to non-canonical sources
Sometimes more harm than good can be done by pronouncements of archbishops - it just feeds the conspiracy,yet on the other hand I think it had to be addressed
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Vesture, Posture, Gesture
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# 10614
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Posted
Agree with all of the above - it was an inspiring sermon. His Grace at his best !
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An undergraduate proudly told Benjamin Jowett, the great 19th Century Classicist that he was an agnostic. Jowett replied "Young man, in this university we speak Latin not Greek, so when speaking of yourself in that way, use the word ignoramus"
Posts: 427 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bernard Mahler
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# 10852
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Posted
Splendid to see the Archbishop showing strong scorn rather than timid horror!
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"What does it matter? All is grace" Georges Bernanos
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Primarks and Spencer
Shipmate
# 10968
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Posted
I thought the sermon was incredibly good too.
The thing is - at certain times in history, the church has looked like that arbitrary hierarchy to those on the outside. The Spanish Inquisition springs to mind.
I'm very much in favour of people exploring and investigating, though. Because there will come a point when the curious mind will apply Occam's Razor to the conspiracy theories, and think "hang on a moment, isn't there a simpler explanation than this?" And that's when a new faith in Christ begins to take root.
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:)
Posts: 63 | Registered: Feb 2006
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noneen
Shipmate
# 11023
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Posted
the link isn't letting me read the sermon ... but i'll google it (just thought o'd mention it here!!)
the quoted piece above sounds brill though !!!
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... 'but Father, Jesus drank wine at Cana and danced' ... 'Not in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he didn't', Father replied
Posts: 472 | From: ireland | Registered: Feb 2006
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Wm Duncan
Buoy tender
# 3021
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Posted
The sermon can also be read at the good archbishop's own website, HERE
Wm Duncan
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I have overcome a fiercely anti-Catholic upbringing in order to attend Mass simply and solely to escape Protestant guitars. Why am I here? Who gave these nice Catholics guitars?
-- Annie Dillard
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
It could be said that by speaking about it Rowan adds respect to a book of fiction that in a years time will be in the bargain basement.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
It could be said that by speaking about it Rowan adds respect to a book of fiction that in a years time will be in the bargain basement.
I think he was right to speak about it.
Otherwise the conspiracy types would say the church couldn't refute the arguments of the book.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
It could be said that by speaking about it Rowan adds respect to a book of fiction that in a years time will be in the bargain basement.
If only! When was it published? How many years ago?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
It could be said that by speaking about it Rowan adds respect to a book of fiction that in a years time will be in the bargain basement.
I think he was right to speak about it.
Otherwise the conspiracy types would say the church couldn't refute the arguments of the book.
Can't refute a book that cliams to be fiction? All you have to say is the book is fiction ie made up.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Can't refute a book that cliams to be fiction? All you have to say is the book is fiction ie made up.
or quote this where the fictional status is given away.
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
If only! When was it published? How many years ago?
2003 and paper back 2004?. The theries have been around for a about 20 years or more. It could be argued the Baigent's book which says it is non-fiction is more of issue.
I am expecting Rowan to go around refuting the existence of Harry Potter next.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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GrahamR
Shipmate
# 11299
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Posted
Nightlamp, I think you've misunderstood what Rowan was doing- he was addressing a wider point about conspiracy theories and the like by mentioning the Da Vinci Code, which is obviously the best current example.
I think if, as Christians, we just ignore these things then people are left with the underlying feeling that Christianity is false, even when they've forgotten the details. Like you say, these beliefs been around for a while now- and don't seem to be going away...
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My blog - theology, archaeology, science
Posts: 184 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
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Posted
Surely Rowan Williams made his comments because the DVC has given the old Holy Blood and the Holy Grail theories a new lease of life and presented itself as fiction that has an underlying idea that could be plausible. The book actually is being read by some as a challenge to Christianity and because of its huge popularity, One would expect ++Rowan to say something. I don’t think DVC is like Harry Potter because it has the “what if it’s true” angle and, as far as I’m aware, Harry Potter doesn’t.
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GrahamR:
Like you say, these beliefs been around for a while now- and don't seem to be going away...
Jesus not dying on the cross seems to have been around since the third century if not earlier.
Anyway the Bish of Winchester seems to have got the right idea cash in on something before it vanishes and is forgotten about like the Chariots of the Gods.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
I don’t think DVC is like Harry Potter because it has the “what if it’s true” angle and,
You are reading that into a book of fiction?
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
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Posted
No I personaly am not but lots of people are and the book has been marketed that way. The idea is not that the story is true but that the HBHG stuff that it's based on is. The novel is popularising an old theory.
[ 24. April 2006, 15:13: Message edited by: Gextvedde ]
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
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GrahamR
Shipmate
# 11299
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp
Jesus not dying on the cross seems to have been around since the third century if not earlier.
That was the point I was making- as this is the central event in Christianity I think we need to defend it's historicity sometimes, whether or not the book that's discussing that belief has "fiction" on its back cover or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp
Anyway the Bish of Winchester seems to have got the right idea cash in on something before it vanishes
Or, as the article you've linked to makes clear, the cathedral is using the popularity of the book as a mission opportunity to encourage people to think about Christ. Having spent the weekend helping to run a Christian stall at a Mind, Body and Spirit fair I can tell you that people are searching for "spirituality" and if we're not where they are we can't offer them God's love shown through Jesus.
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My blog - theology, archaeology, science
Posts: 184 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GrahamR:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp
Anyway the Bish of Winchester seems to have got the right idea cash in on something before it vanishes
Or, as the article you've linked to makes clear, the cathedral is using the popularity of the book as a mission opportunity to encourage people to think about Christ.
Still it does look like the church has sold out to get the cash (see here)
quote:
And now of course, it seems that even Westminster Abbey - which famously turned down £100,000 and refused to allow the film crew access on religious grounds, claiming that the book was "theologically unsound'' - has now given in and will be helping itself to a soupçon of Da Vinci gold.
Not only will it be holding two lectures - admission £25 a head - by the Abbey's canon theologian Nicholas Sagovsky and that old hand Rev Robin Griffith-Jones of Temple Church, but the admission also includes ''optional'' evensong, a ''self-guided'' tour and wine and canapés. Meanwhile, the Abbey shop is producing a booklet on the Code and its connection to Westminster Abbey - price £2.99 - as well as selling Griffith-Jones's Da Vinci book.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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