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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Da Vinci Mass
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
Is anyone going to this ?
I know it is a bit late in the day, it being tonight and all, but it does look interesting. I have decided to go despite having neither read the book or seen the film. FWIW I will be the one in the purple coat/jacket and (probably) hat.
[ 30. May 2006, 16:39: Message edited by: Real Ale Methodist ]
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Formerly Real Ale Methodist
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Holy God, I loathe, detest and abominate this sort of f*cking around with the Sacred Liturgy. The Mass is not supposed to be a playground for making cool contemporary references or being "creative" or "clever" or "relevant". It links in to enough eternal themes of eternal significance asi ti is, thanks very much. And to use it as a model for commenting on such rubbish as TDVC is worse yet.
Words can scarcley express my irritation at people using the Mass for this kind of "point-making". The Mass, when celebrated authentically, with straightforward sincerity and dignity, without gimmicks and ephemeral contemporary allusions, already makes the most important cultural and spiritual "point" that can possibly be made. How anyone could possibly think that dicking it around by "themeing" it to moronic ideas from a seriously shitty novel could in any way improve it I cannot begin to imagine.
Yours seriously pissed off,
CB
[ 30. May 2006, 17:02: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Apart from all that, I think it's a great idea.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Apart from all that, I think it's a great idea.
I can tell...
I shall report back, but am a poor judge of liturgy.
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Formerly Real Ale Methodist
Back after prolonged absence...
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Oh my, complete with the trendy poster which reminds me of this (PDF). You definitely have to report back to us, Real Ale Methodist!
L.
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-lucy-
Shipmate
# 10465
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Posted
I would have gone looks interesting, but manchester is quite a way...
Posts: 592 | From: East Yorkshire | Registered: Sep 2005
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Real Ale Methodist:
Is anyone going to this ?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
It's the awful poster they've created (with the five Priests in place of the five protagonists from the book/film) that gets me...it looks awful and just ever so slightly tacky! Thank goodness I'm here in London.
J Whitgift
(Knowing that his namesake is probably spinning in his grave over such a thing as a "Da Vinci" Mass)
<Do tell us how it went though R.A.M.>
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
I'm back, it was very interesting, I'm goign to have to think a bit. I'll put my opinions on my blog and then post them here, if anyone else saw it it would be interesting to see some other opinions. (I am in two minds to be honest)
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Fermat
Shipmate
# 4894
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Posted
I'd love to hear what it was like, RAM.
quote:
Words can scarcley express my irritation at people using the Mass for this kind of "point-making". The Mass, when celebrated authentically, with straightforward sincerity and dignity, without gimmicks and ephemeral contemporary allusions, already makes the most important cultural and spiritual "point" that can possibly be made. How anyone could possibly think that dicking it around by "themeing" it to moronic ideas from a seriously shitty novel could in any way improve it I cannot begin to imagine.
I agree that the Mass is great ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) However, a large chunk of the population of the UK disagree with me. It seems to me that this is an attempt to capitalise on something that has caught the public imagination, and I say "well done, Manchester" for having the guts to try it.
I'd love to hear a bit more about how it was structured, and what the reaction of the congregation was.
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
Ok here goes, I have also published this same stuff on my blog (I presume as I wrote it this isn't a problem copyright wise) I've not said everythign I have to say, but it was too long already, I hope this gives an overview.
A very interesting evening. I take some inspiration from the Mystery Worshippers here, but I'm not claiming to do the same job.
I arrived just before 2000 hrs at Manchester Cathedral to find a very busy area of seating arranged around the screen bitty, hiding this rather gorgeous piece of liturgical decoration was a large projection screen with a communion table, two large candles, and some red swags. Quite tasteful in my opinion. The cathedral is a very pleasant and intimate, made the more so by a fine fug originating from a chap with a dangly smoke thing.
The evening was a bit schizophrenic, I wasn't really sure what to expect, I doubt anyone else was, and I am not entirely convinced the people running it knew what it was. It took three parts though: an engagement with some of the issues of the Da Vinci Code, clearing up a few myths etc; some reflections lead by some canon or other. (I'm useless at names and can't seem to find him on the diocese's who's who, he is second from the right on the poster though); and a mass lead by the same. These were divided by some pieces of music sung and flagged as periods in which to think. The music was modern and included a lovely rendition of the Fugee's "Killing me softly".
The first part was simplistic but effective. It dismissed the poor history relating to the gnostic gospels and the Council of Nicea, but on the other hand it rather glossed over the major debate other the place of women in the New Testament, the conclusions were sound, and I agreed with the argument - but I thought it intellectually dishonest to pretend it was the only opinion on the gospels. The two people (one minister and historian, one token woman) being 'interviewed' on this got the first of many rounds of applause, I didn't join in because I was thinking of it as a service, not a concert.
The reflections embraced The Da Vinci Code as an opportunity for dialogue, it's ideas were twofold. One that Jesus couldn't have married Mary M, because he loves everyone too much to have been able to enter into an honest marriage with just woman, even if had wanted to. (like he would have been cheating on her because he loved every other woman ever just as much) It was a good way of getting a message of Christ's love across, using the love between husband and wife/ father and child, as an analogy for the absolute love that Jesus has for everyone. The second point was that christ had a lot of femininity in him, referring to his love and compassion again, but also comparing the crucifixion with the pain of childbirth. The point was made that this was the 'opposite of a stillbirth' because in giving life and rebirth to everyone christ was dieing. All in all a good message to give to people who may have been of uncertain faith, or unfamiliar with the church.
The Mass was the culmination of all this. This is what caused me pause, the liturgy was pretty much scrapped to the bare bones (and only some of those). It was an excellent piece of drama (something the church has always been good at) with an emphasis on all being welcome, regardless of how much faith they had. Also equating the Blood of Christ with the Bloodline and the 'Sang Real'. This was done very effectively (despite some rather naff messing around with a red cloth on the approach to the altar - so we could 'walk along the bloodline to Jesus'). All that remained of the liturgy I recognise was the story of "How on the very night he was betrayed..." which was explained and altered a bit in its telling. It was quite impressive watching everyone spontaneously get up and head for the front in a big mob, all clamouring to get at Jesus, did my heart good.
All in all the event was very good, it was probably more suited to the lapsed, or uninitiated than to the hardened christian. I still got a lot out of it though. Even having not read the book I thought its themes were very effectively addressed and used. The simplification and use of TDVC added rather than took away from the Mass. It gave a way in to the Mass, and a way of understanding it, which, as a one off, was very effective.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Words can scarcley express my irritation at people using the Mass for this kind of "point-making".
Mm. I think the Mass is always 'point-making' in two senses. Firstly, we make the point to the eternal Father that his Son's perfect obedience has gained our salvation. He doesn't actually need reminding of this, of course, but condescends to allow us to remind him. Secondly, we ourselves are reminded of Christ's sacrifice and of our future glory. There is a didactic element to the eucharist. The DVC Mass seems to be a localisation of this, and I can't really see any reason to rule out its legitimacy a priori. I'd want to see how it was done.
I rather like the point about the 'true bloodline' of Christ. Rather nicely turning the DVC silliness back on itself. Cunning as serpents and all that...
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
Mm. I think the Mass is always 'point-making' in two senses. Firstly, we make the point to the eternal Father that his Son's perfect obedience has gained our salvation. He doesn't actually need reminding of this, of course, but condescends to allow us to remind him. Secondly, we ourselves are reminded of Christ's sacrifice and of our future glory. There is a didactic element to the eucharist.
Which is the sort of thing I was "pointing" to when I said quote:
The Mass, when celebrated authentically, with straightforward sincerity and dignity, without gimmicks and ephemeral contemporary allusions, already makes the most important cultural and spiritual "point" that can possibly be made.
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
The DVC Mass seems to be a localisation of this, and I can't really see any reason to rule out its legitimacy a priori. I'd want to see how it was done.
How it was done seems to have been by stripping back pretty drastically the usual rite - in other words, that which usually conveys the messages you mention. But then I would say that, wouldn't I?
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Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
I do think that stripping down the liturgy was probably a mistake, for the reason you suggest.
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
I presume the thinking was that the liturgy would be inaccesible to a new audience, so that it was stripped down to its bare essentials. This did mean no real period of prayer until after the mass. It would be more of an Eccles question to ask: What makes a Mass? I have never expereinced such a liturgy light one.
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Honest John
Shipmate
# 11457
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Posted
I couldn't get over to Manchester for the Da Vinci mass but I did get over there for the Manchster Passion on Good Friday which was great. There was a real sense of occasion and it was all put together very well.
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Alister Sim
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: May 2006
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Fermat
Shipmate
# 4894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Real Ale Methodist:
I presume the thinking was that the liturgy would be inaccesible to a new audience, so that it was stripped down to its bare essentials. This did mean no real period of prayer until after the mass. It would be more of an Eccles question to ask: What makes a Mass? I have never expereinced such a liturgy light one.
So what was included?
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
From a usual service? The passage "and on the night that he was betrayed..." was used, but not in pure form. Which is fair enough. And a very broad invitation. I was near the back and saw no indication of anything happening to the elements. We were invited to follow the bloodline (a piece of red fabric laid down the centre aisle) and meet Christ. The bread and wine was handed out by a series of helpers working in pairs who handed it other with the "body/blood of christ" That was it.
There was no prayer, no confession, no prior scripture, no responsery, nothing. Personally I didn't mind, I filled in what I felt was necessary prayer wise myself. My concern would be that the significance and importance of the mass would be lost on any visitors from a less religous background, and that the affair might have seen like an arcane meaningless ritual.
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Back after prolonged absence...
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Real Ale Methodist:
From a usual service? The passage "and on the night that he was betrayed..." was used, but not in pure form. Which is fair enough.
I don't think that kind of gutting and ad lib-bing is "fair enough".
quote:
Originally posted by Real Ale Methodist:
There was no prayer, no confession, no prior scripture, no responsery, nothing. [snip] My concern would be that the significance and importance of the mass would be lost on any visitors from a less religous background, and that the affair might have seen like an arcane meaningless ritual.
My concerns exactly. And doesn't that rather defeat the supposed objective?
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Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Honest John
Shipmate
# 11457
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Posted
Did no one else on this thread make it to the Manchester Passion at Easter? Maybe there was a thread about it which I missed ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Alister Sim
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: May 2006
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
The idea may be growing. Small local church with a very large highway bill board has the following notice posted.
quote:
The Da Vinci Code is a lie. Come on Sunday and hear the truth!
I am not sure by the sign if they are going to talk about the Da Vinci Code or not.
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Corpus cani
Ship's Anachronism
# 1663
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Posted
There was also an All Saints thread on the subject, now culled but far superior in all regards.
I might add that the AS thread began before the Purg thread, but it was the AS thread that was culled as a "repeat" and exists no more. So often the child outshines the parent...
Cc
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